Written Version: Landon, Wahl and Witty on the USMNT Qualifying for World Cup 2022

The boys got back together for our instant reaction podcast that we do after every USMNT World Cup qualifier. The written version is below with the entirety available for paid subscribers. As always, the audio version is free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Consider subscribing to GrantWahl.com here:

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Grant Wahl:

Hey there, welcome to Landon, Wahl, & Witty on the Road to Qatar. I'm Grant Wahl. Thanks so much for joining us. We’ve got reaction from Landon Donovan, Chris Wittyngham and me to the U.S. men's national team qualifying for World Cup 2022 despite a 2-0 loss to Costa Rica, Landon is in San Diego, Witty is in South Florida and I am in San José, Costa Rica, where I'm writing for my Substack newsletter, which you should sign up for free or paid at GrantWahl.com. Free seven-day trials are now available. Guys, it's good to be with you. This long road to Qatar is over, the U.S. has qualified. How are you?

Landon Donovan:

Great. Witty?

Chris Wittyngham:

Listen, the U.S. are in the World Cup. I talked last night about a self-loathing within the U.S. men's national team supporters base at times, and how we're always trying to figure out ways that it could be better, and I think those are real and legitimate concerns that we can discuss here on this reaction podcast. But really last night was about reversing the trauma of 2017. It was about qualifying and by any means necessary. They got the job done. They didn't lose by six. I think we should revel in the fact that tomorrow there will be a draw for the World Cup that has the U.S. in Pot 2. I look at the other parts and go, I don't know. I feel like the U.S. have a chance to get out of the group here. I know that's probably looking too far ahead, but that's a level of excitement that we haven't had around the national team in eight years. I'm fired up despite some of the misgivings and the performance against Costa Rica.

Landon Donovan:

Well said, Witty, and my apologies as I'm driving to work, so my sound quality might be worse than my normal sound quality with my monotone voice. We're going to get through it, but no, I am so excited, and listen we now have context around what it means to not qualify. We went I think six or seven cycles in a row qualifying, and everyone just thought it was a foregone conclusion. A night like last night you would've said, well, we qualified, but we lost the game and we lost to Costa Rica, blah, blah, blah. We didn't qualify last time, and now we're in the World Cup. Let's just move on, enjoy it, doesn't matter which games you win or lose at what point, as long as you qualify is the only thing that matters. Like you said, we're in Pot 2 and I'm excited for tomorrow's draw.

Grant Wahl:

I really do think looking at what's happened over the past week or so, if you ask Italy how they felt about performances versus qualification, I think they would say they would prefer to have qualified for the World Cup even if their performances hadn't been that great, or even like an Algeria, which just went out in the worst way possible at home, right at the end to Cameroon on an extra time goal.

And if you're Algeria, you're not going to the World Cup. So the U.S. is going to the World Cup, having not gone to the World Cup four years ago. And it was interesting to me being on the ground here in Costa Rica, how the sort of transformation took place quite quickly with the U.S. players where on the field, it was very muted right after the game from their perspective. And that made sense, they had just lost 2-0 at a place where they've never won.

Yet by the time the U.S. got to the locker room, it was very clear that a switch got flipped and they started looking at the bigger picture and then they started celebrating, and we're seeing pictures and videos coming out from that celebration. And I'm totally fine with them having that celebration because it's for a 14-game, six-month process that was very arduous, three-game windows, lot of ups and downs, and they got what they came to do. They got a spot in the World Cup. And so I think even this morning, now the performance against Costa Rica is going into the rear-view mirror. Even Christian Pulisic said this after the game when we talked to him, which is look, we're competitors. We hate to lose, and yet people aren't going to be talking about this game for very long at all. What they are going to talk about is we're going to the World Cup.

I'm almost trying to figure out how to guide our discussion here today, guys, because usually we talk about what happened in the game. Is there much in the game that you want to talk about? For me, I do wonder if all the goalkeepers are healthy if we might have a bit of a controversy in that situation.

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Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. I thought that in the first goal, you can certainly criticize Zack Steffen for perhaps not having a quicker reaction. Although for me, free headers, it's hard to ever completely fault the goalkeeper. It was a good cross in from Costa Rica and a good header. It's hard to ever completely fault the goalkeeper in that situation. Beats Walker Zimmerman, maybe you can criticize the U.S. lack of centerback rotation. There, maybe Aaron Long with fresher legs rises to win that.

But you can say maybe Matt Turner makes that save. You can probably definitely say that Keylor Navas would make that save. I think he very clearly burnished his status as the best goalkeeper in CONCACAF by some distance last night. But the second goal, I think, is symptomatic of something we've seen in this window and in previous windows, when Zack Steffen comes out for crosses, and then we're in scramble drill situations, he seems to thrive in those scramble situations where he's not really in a position, he's just trying to put out the fire and has most often put out the fire. But then in moments where he should have claimed, didn't claim, then recovers and there's somebody on the back post who turns in, you're wondering are there issues with Zack Steffen from crosses?

That being said, I think it's a little bit of revisionist history to not point out Matt Turner I didn't think had a great performance in Panama and made some mistakes there. There is a segment of the media and the fan base that’s anytime Zack Steffen makes a mistake, it's Turner, but we ignore some of the mistakes that Turner has made. I think Gregg Berhalter has a huge sample on the two goalkeepers. We'll see who he picks on the opening day of the World Cup. But I think he can make compelling arguments for both, and I don't think last night is necessarily evidence to scrap Steffen. What I do think it is is evidence that Zack Steffen maybe not playing every week doesn't exactly help his position with the national team and being a consistent performer.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. What you said there at the end, Witty, I think is the point that matters. I'm not so concerned about Zack Steffen or, well, Zack Steffen making a few interesting mental errors or decisions last night, he hasn't been playing regularly, so that's to be expected. What I am concerned about is I don't think anyone expects Matt Turner to be starting for Arsenal the next six months. I don't think anyone expects Zack Steffen to be starting at City for the next six months.

What happens if you go into Qatar, we need to decide what we're going to say, Cut-ter or Ka-TAR, I'm going to say Cut-ter. What happens if we go into Qatar and those guys have played a combined four or five cup games in the last six months, now what happens? That is a big problem. Because you need a goalkeeper playing well if you're going to have a chance to do well in the World Cup. Evety time I participated in a World Cup and we did well, it's also partially because we had great goalkeeping. It's a big deal.

Grant Wahl:

What happens if one of those guys gets a loan somewhere and starts? I mean, if you're Matt Turner, would you push for Arsenal to loan you out next season?

Landon Donovan:

If I'm both of them, I do. Yeah. I mean, you guys have seen this, every World Cup cycle, there's a player or two who are at a club where they're not playing and they figure out a way either to get transferred or get loans somewhere so they can play. I think it's crucial. You need to be playing. Those two, you would think, are cemented to go to the World Cup, but there are a lot of guys on the bubble. If you're not playing, you're not going to be named to the roster. There are some big decisions coming ahead this summer for a lot of players.

Chris Wittyngham:

I would be stunned if Steffen in particular left Man City, just because I think he is firmly cemented as their number two. I'm not sure that they have a good deal of interest because who right now is going to be looking to go be somebody else's backup? I think a lot of people, and this is actually a rare summer dynamic, it's usually in the past happened in January where World Cup year you're going to try and get some starts. But I think Steffen will remain at Manchester City.

With Matt Turner, I guess we'll see what happens with Bernd Leno, I’d imagine he's going to go and he is going to go find somewhere else to play, and Turner will step in as the number two. If he has any desire, by the way, kind of dark horse candidate is Ethan Horvath.

I know that it's some distance away, but like Forest, where he is playing in the Championship are three points off the playoffs for promotion. They have three games in hand on a lot of their competition. There's a chance they end up in the promotion playoffs. He's been playing every week. What if they get promoted into the Premier League and Ethan Horvath is their number one goalkeeper? Then all of a sudden you have a third candidate in there who might be playing more often. I think Gregg has made it pretty clear based off of starting Steffen against Mexico in November when Steffen hadn't played much, against Costa Rica in Columbus in that third game of the window in October, when both of them had played and he went for Steffen in a must win at home against Costa Rica and then he made an early mistake in that one. I think Gregg Berhalter prefers Zack Steffen. I think without any other factors involved here, I think that Zack Steffen in all probability will be the number one come the first game of Qatar.

Grant Wahl:

I also want to ask you guys about Gregg Berhalter because in the end, his tenure will obviously be judged by how the U.S. performs at the World Cup itself. But don't you think this occasion upon qualification for the World Cup when it wasn't done by his predecessor four years ago, that this is an occasion to say, good job, Gregg Berhalter.

Landon Donovan:

Absolutely. I struggle in today's world where everything is black and white and someone's great or they're terrible, or there's nowhere in between. When there were some bumps along the way early on, it's fair for people to criticize and question. But if you just now look at what Gregg has done, and I look at it just anecdotally, what this team looks like after the first qualifier versus what they look like against Panama.

I mean, the growth that all those players have made, which they were going to make anyway, to some extent, but how much Gregg accelerated it and built a real trust and belief in the team is phenomenal. They are all young kids. These are not grown savvy professionals that have been playing for 10 years. And I think Gregg's done a phenomenal job.

Chris Wittyngham:

So I think there are many levels to this. I agree, Landon, that he achieved what ultimately you want him to, which is get the team to the World Cup, managed some really difficult situations in terms of injuries throughout, in terms of this team being incredibly young, in terms of a lot of the guys even who are making their way towards Europe. We think of Yunus Musah as someone who's a key contributor with the U.S., but at Valencia he's been slowly working his way into a starting role. He's had ups and downs, even Sergiño Dest has had ups and downs.

Weston McKennie in the early part of qualifying had ups and downs and we didn't know if Max Allegri was going to trust him in the way that Andrea Pirlo did at Juventus. There're all kinds of situations where yes, we think of the U.S. player on a certain level, but they're only beginning the journey. Gio Reyna coming back from a massive injury.

There're all kinds of things that have happened where it's not been able to full throttle performance all the time. However, I do think that the U.S. fan does have a right, given the level of club that some of these players are at to think to themselves, maybe the U.S. could have done more here. Maybe the U.S. shouldn't have drawn at home against Canada. Maybe the U.S. should have done more away from home in some of these qualifiers against Costa Rica and against Panama and against Jamaica where they didn't take maximum points.

I also understand that criticism as well of this is a really talented group of players, and maybe there is more here than we're seeing from the national team. Maybe there are players who aren't in the national team that could be, or maybe the right guys aren't playing in some people's minds. I do think that there is more on this bone, certainly when it comes to the talent. And I do understand when fans watch last night and go, ugh, maybe qualifying for the World Cup on goal difference ahead of Costa Rica is maybe not where this program should be a little bit better than that and I get it.

Landon Donovan:

Sure. But isn't there always more or always better? I think the reality is I've said this early on, when you play teams matters as to where their mental state, emotional state. Costa Rica win these last two games before, actually they won all three games this cycle, but Canada was basically qualified. El Salvador had nothing to play for. The U.S. had basically nothing to play for.

So when you play games matters, and I still think it was a job well done. Is there more in there? Of course there is. There's no question. By the way, let's just talk about, I was going to say the elephant in the room, but the absolute lion in the room, which is Weston McKennie wasn't there and he's been their best player. If we have Weston last night, it's probably a different game. I think we win in Mexico. If Weston's there, he makes a massive difference to this team. I know every team deals with injuries, but that is a big piece of it too.

Grant Wahl:

I will point out here that Alphonso Davies has been gone from Canada for a while and they've done quite well, results wise without him actually. But I get what you're saying.

Landon Donovan:

Grant and outside back is much different than your central midfielder and your leader and your captain and your workhorse. It is different.

Grant Wahl:

Davies plays everywhere though, man.

Landon Donovan:

Well, he's a wide player. Trust me. I would play him and I'd play him in goal if I had him.

Grant Wahl:

So it's really fascinating. Gregg Berhalter and his staff, other U.S. Soccer people flew overnight from Costa Rica, where I'm still stuck by at the way. He just did a press conference. We're recording this at 9:48 AM Eastern on Thursday. Berhalter already had a press conference in the last hour from New York. Now he's jumping on a plane to fly to Qatar. I'm going to say ca-TAR not CUT-ter or Qatar or whatever, because when Qatar Airways was doing ads on Fox for the gold cut, even Qatar Airways, the voice said ca-TAR..

Chris Wittyngham:

But Grant, you just nailed it. The, the third one, the third one that you said was the correct one. Qatar, that's kind of how they say it. I'm

Grant Wahl:

I'm not Wolf Blitzer, man. I'm not going to do that. If Qatar Airways-

Landon Donovan:

You are in the Situation Room!

Chris Wittyngham:

You know me, I'm going to try and stick to it, Qatar. I mean, but it just sounds, it just doesn't fit with normal patterns of English speech. If you're like, oh yeah when the U.S., they open up the group against Belgium in Qatar. That doesn't sound like how you would speak a normal sentence. I'm deliberating that on that one as well.

Grant Wahl:

If Qatar Airways wants to spend $1 million sponsoring this show so that we can continue doing this moving forward, which I would very much love to do. I hope this isn't our last episode. I'll say whatever they want to say at that point.

Chris Wittyngham:

Wow. It's $1 million, so that's the price?

Landon Donovan:

$1 million is your number, everyone's got a price. Well, if $1 million is your price, Dr. Gounder must be doing very well, that's it.

Grant Wahl:

But, okay. Gregg Berhalter is flying to the host of the World Cup, and they're going to have a draw. The U.S. is in Pot 2. This is Friday at noon Eastern. If the U.S. is in Pot 2, that means the U.S. is basically expected to be in the top two in its group. They're going to be expected to get out of the group. That's interesting to me, and obviously you have no control over which teams the U.S. draws. So that will be a lot to talk about starting on Friday.

But if you are Gregg Berhalter, let's start with Landon. If you're Gregg Berhalter, what are the most important things for you to do in the months between now and the World Cup? I'm asking you, Landon, to use your own personal experience on what these next months are in the transition between qualification and the World Cup itself.

Landon Donovan:

In a perfect world, and I know the world's not perfect, you find a way to get a 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 day camp with a match in Qatar at some point with your group, as much of your group as possible. I don't know that that will be possible. I don't know if that's on the agenda or something that we're able to do, but that would be ideal because anyway you slice it, having not been to a country, not understanding a little bit of culture, a little bit of what you're going to see, is a big disadvantage.

I think back to in '01, we played a game in South Korea prior to the 2002 World Cup and that helped massively because we had already been there. In '06 in Germany, everyone had played in Germany, so it wasn't a big deal. But in 2009 we had the opportunity to go to the Confederations Cup in South Africa a year before the South Africa World Cup, and that was huge.

Then actually in 2014, the whole team had a preseason in Brazil, which was crucial when the team went back to Brazil. That would be ideal. Otherwise, Christian said it at the end with Jenny Chiu at the end, with his interview, he just said, you just have to get back to your club teams and perform well. The best thing you can do is be in good form when the World Cup starts, and that more than anything else, that is what matters most.

Chris Wittyngham:

But Grant, to answer your question with Greg Berhalter, so they have the Nations League coming up ahead of the summer. I'll be curious what kind of squad he picks, it's the end of the club season. They've already played 14 internationals together over a period of six months. Do you need to call in the A squad for that? Or do you let guys rest ahead of what's going to be a long season next year or do you continue to try and drill your principles and try and build squad cohesion, maybe in games where you're not going to be completely tested and you can try out some new ideas. I'll be curious how he handles that, but really going back to that goalkeeper question we talked about earlier, if you're Gregg Berhalter, you are probably going to have some serious conversations with the key members of your squad about what those guys do at club level.

What happens with Ricardo Pepi at Augsburg? Let's say they get relegated. Are you trying to find another club for him or do you say, try and stick it out in the 2.Bundesliga and score some goals? Are you pushing guys who are currently in MLS, like Jesús Ferreira to maybe try and get a move in the summer to go and take a step up and play a few games at a higher level? How all these guys manage their club situations? I do think Gregg Berhalter, and Landon you can correct me if I'm wrong. Will at the very least play a consultancy role in what is most important for me to be doing. Also maybe identifying because I would imagine, we can probably draw up a squad right now and you know, maybe get 18 of the 23 right, but what happens with those last five?

I believe I heard in the Guardian podcast, it's 23, not 26. What does the remainder of that squad look like? Does John Brooks come out and play in the summer so he can reintegrate with the national team? Does Joe Scally get enough first team experience at Gladbach to become one of the contributors at fullback? Are there going to be new players that step up between now if Daryl Dike gets back to fitness, is he back in the striker conversation?

There're all kinds of players that could impress between now and then, but Landon, I'll be curious. What is the role of U.S. Soccer or Gregg Berhalter, Earnie Stewart, Brian McBride in consulting players on their club situation to best have them in position to compete at the World Cup?

Landon Donovan:

It's a great question, and it's a great point. Thinking back to 2014, Jurgen had a massive role in guiding guys, you could say guiding, or you could say forcing guys to move or play or get to certain places so that they would be in the best possible position either to perform well in the World Cup or to make a World Cup team. It's a really good point. There are a number of guys who don't play regularly right now, who need to be playing regularly if they want any chance of being picked and or any chance of being successful in the World Cup.

You can’t overestimate how challenging it would be to not play real club football for 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 months prior to a World Cup. That would be devastating. If I'm Gregg, that's item 1, 2 and 3 on my list right now is to make sure that guys understand how important that is and that they are finding a situation with club teams where they can be playing week in and week out leading into the World Cup.

Grant Wahl:

Now, as I understand it, looking at the calendar for June, it's a couple of Nations League games, but there's also a couple of friendlies. Gregg Berhalter talked about it down here in Costa Rica, that he's wanting to get friendlies in June and September against high profile teams from different continents.

He played a lot of CONCACAF teams, but he wants to get friendlies against European teams, South American teams, African teams, maybe even an Asian team, he said. That's going to rely on U.S. Soccer to arrange those things. There's already some reports that Argentina may come to North America for friendlies against Mexico and the United States. That's something I'll be looking forward to.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah, but Grant, the draw will impact that my guess. Tom King and Earnie Stewart and Brian McBride do a fantastic job of all of these things. My guess is that they've got a handful of teams that they are ready to pull the trigger on. But the draw will impact that. If you get let me say, again making let's say, Argentina, you're not going to play Argentina then in a friendly, you might play whatever Ecuador, you might play somebody or teams that are out of the World Cup now, Colombia or Chile, something that somewhat resembles, of course you can't resemble what Messi plays like, but resembles the style of the type of team you're playing. If you get an African team, then do you book an African team for one of these friendlies? So I think the draw will have a big impact on what happens.

Grant Wahl:

I'm fully expecting the U.S. will draw Ghana at the World Cup by the way.

Landon Donovan:

Jesus, just those are nightmares.

Chris Wittyngham:

No, but I mean, I expect them to exhume the corpse of Asamoah Gyan, but I know the Ayew brothers, get them out of my life. It's enough of the Ayew brothers, we've had them enough.

Landon Donovan:

Oh man.

Grant Wahl:

But also too, I mean, are there any players that you think might be in a position who have not really been involved in this World Cup qualifying campaign for the U.S. to be part of the team for the World Cup itself?

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. I want to be careful here because I don't have the context, and Gregg has seen all these guys up close multiple times, so it's easy for us to say, oh Joe Scally, but Gregg might just not be high on him for whatever reason. I do think that is one name. Another, and it's what I said the other night is there's still, nobody has grabbed the number nine spot and so this is mine. If, and this is a big if, and he plays for a huge club at Norwich [laughs], if Josh Sargent is able to get on a run of form or any domestic American striker is, I know nobody wants to hear this, but if Gyasi Zardes tears up the league throughout the rest of the season, somebody could find themselves not only making the roster, but could be starting. That is the one position where if you have a player playing well, who is scoring goals on a weekly basis, you have to really consider playing that player no matter who they are. That's the one spot I think we could see someone sneak in that we're not expecting.

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. I would definitely look towards that striker position. I think Daryl Dike is certainly in with a shout. I can't really see too many others like Matthew Hoppe hasn't played for a long time. If you're looking at a young player that can maybe just it on a run this season and give Gregg Berhalter a decision to make, you look at someone to me like Cade Cowell at San Jose, who I've really rated for a long time, but he seems more Under 20 World Cup, he’s still got steps to make. This is going to sound ridiculous, but maybe Jozy Altidore gets on a run once Adam Buksa gets sold in New England, and all of a sudden he gives Greg Berhalter a decision to make. And finally he can play at the World Cup.

I would definitely look towards that striker position. I would definitely look towards John Brooks as well as someone who's been in the camp and could go again. Again this one is probably too early. I think the backup left back position is probably one where they can afford to improve. We'll see where George Bello gets on it, Arminia Bielefeld, or maybe I really enjoyed watching Kevin Paredes who went to Wolfsburg. If he starts to play, maybe he can get in there.

But if you look at the 11, I would definitely say Zimmerman is in at center back, Miles Robinson is in at center back, Sergiño Dest is in at right back. The goalkeeper is clear. The three in midfield is clear. Pulisic, Reyna, Weah are going to be among the attackers that go from the start. I guess maybe you look towards players that have some positional versatility and we'll see where that develops over the course of the next few months. But I can't really see the shape of who's actually going to start on opening day changing that dramatically. I'd say right now you can probably pick eight of the 11 that'll start on that day.

Grant Wahl:

That's very Gus Johnson of you to use the phrase 'opening day.’ You mean the World Cup?

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. Right. Well, no. Opening day of the first game of the group.

Grant Wahl:

Okay. [Laughs]

Landon Donovan:

You mean first pitch?

Grant Wahl:

And that's the ball game! So it’s really interesting. I guess one thing I'm thinking is that because this is such a young U.S. team compared to previous editions, there might not be that many young guys or as many young guys that might emerge over the next few months, because we've seen a lot of young guys already with this U.S. team. My question for you then maybe is as far as a likely starting lineup, and you have to hope there aren't going to be any significant injuries. Who do you really expect to see in the starting 11 for the U.S. once the World Cup starts?

Landon Donovan:

I think this will get shaped based on how Gregg decides to use Christian. Let's just assume everyone's healthy. Well, we'll see what happens at goalkeeper, but we have a decent semblance of what we think the back line will look like. Sergiño, Antonee, probably Miles and Walker. I think the best we have played in the midfield is with Tyler, Weston and Musah. I think they compliment each other well in a lot of ways.

Then the big question is how do you use Christian to his most effectiveness? It's probably going to be, we don't know if we'll have to see what the striker looks like, but it's probably going to be some mix of Christian with either Weah or Aaronson, who am I missing?

Grant Wahl:

Gio?

Landon Donovan:

Oh, Gio, jeez. Yeah, it's probably going to be two of those four, depending on form, how everyone's playing. I think you could pretty much pen in Christian, unless you're really stupid. Then it'll be one of those other three who are probably going to each play significant minutes in the World Cup, just depending on their forms. Do you play Christian off the right? Do you find a way to play him more centrally? Do you play with some sort of a box in the midfield with two strikers, that's something they do need to work out. I like the idea of Christian playing wide on the left and coming inside, which he naturally does because Antonee Robinson is so dynamic going forward. If they can get really, really good understanding there, that could be really explosive, but I think that's going to be the key.

Chris Wittyngham:

I agree. My guess would be, and I hate to say this because it means someone's World Cup dream won't come true, but not everyone's going to be healthy for this. It's just the reality of the number of games that we've played, the nature of the sport. I do think that maybe some of these selection issues do get solved by players just not being available. But I still think this is going to be incredibly tough because you're going to have to leave out some key contributors. You mentioned the idea if you're not playing Gio Reyna as one of the three in midfield, and I can understand why given how well the three there have combined, then you're basically saying it's either Reyna or Weah and both of them have been really important. You're basically saying it is either Pulisic or Aaronson. The question is, do you turn any of those guys into the guy that you play up top, whether it's Reyna in kind of a false nine position?

And do you solve your problem of not having a striker by not playing a striker? Which is the solution that Pep Guardiola has come up with at Manchester City, albeit in a completely different context. And that's an incredibly difficult system to drill and you need a lot more time than national team managers get. I would imagine they'll pick a striker and that would force Gregg Berhalter to leave some really key contributors over the course of this qualifying campaign on the bench. But do you have strength in depth? You have options to change the game and the bench. I think, if you look at the national team context now with five subs, I would imagine that won't be as big of a concern now.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. One thing I've learned, I've learned a lot in three years now, as a coach and a manager is you don't always put your best 11 players on the field at the beginning of the game. The way the game can change in the second half can be very drastic. Think about Qatar, think about still heat. I know it's winter, but still heat, guys tiring at the end of the games, then can you put on, we saw how effective Gio was at the Azteca coming into a game.

You have to do some convincing so players understand that, but you don't always put your best 11 players on the field to start the game. Maybe you put your 12th-best player and you bring your 11th-best player off the bench to impact the game in the second half. I think people get caught up in what's the best 11, and it's what's the best 12, 13, 14, 15 to help you win the game and in what combination.

Chris Wittyngham:

Also, I do think that it's not just about who are the best 11, it's what's the best combination of 11, because you Landon in San Diego, you have the chance from the off season to say, well, I'm going to assign a different kind of role to all of these different kinds of players. I want to bring in this kind of striker and this kind of winger, but Gregg Berhalter does not get that opportunity. Your handed a group of players who haven't been born in the same country and you try and figure out the best way to deploy them.

I do think that it's about not just saying, well, can we get Pulisic, Weah, Reyna, Aaronson, McKennie, Adams, Musah on the field the same time? Because you can't, that doesn't make sense. How do you build a team that makes sense based off of combinations, not just based off of getting the most talented players on the field.

Grant Wahl:

This team, it reminds me a little bit of the 2010 U.S. team that you were on, Landon, where the centerforwards weren't really determined until not long before the tournament, and Hérculez Gómez and Edson Buddle came on. Robbie Findley was on that team.

Players that were not superstars, and the best players on that team from an attacking perspective were starting out wide and coming in, you and Clint Dempsey, and Bob Bradley built the team around that. There are a few similarities, I think. If Christian and whether it's Gio or someone else out wide are some of your best players, I think that's just an interesting thing. I also remember being very surprised when Bob Bradley did not take to the World Cup, at least one of Conor Casey or Brian Ching. Because I assumed that they would want to have some aerial presence like that. I do wonder what's going to happen with Berhalter's decisions on some of these players, and we've already talked about how wide open it could be at the striker position.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. There is a merit argument too, and that impacts the whole group. If you're forcing to bring a striker or a player who doesn't really, someone else deserves it, even though they don't play that position, there is a piece of it that can affect the group. Well, you left this guy off just because you're trying to force another striker onto the roster. I think if Gregg feels like he can find a way to let's just say he brings two strikers and get enough out of the other players around him. Maybe you bring another wide attacking player or maybe bring another outside back. Somebody who can actually impact the game. Because the reality is yes, there are 23 players, but very, very, very rarely do all 23 players play in a World Cup, very rarely.

What you do with those last few spots isn't always based on talent or position. Sometimes it's just based on who's a great guy to have on the team. Frankie Hejduk is the quintessential example of that. Were there guys a little more talented in some of the World Cups? Probably. But if you're going to spend 30 days in a hotel, I can promise you the one guy you want. There is Frankie Hejduk because he's going to make you happy every day.

Chris Wittyngham:

I wonder who the modern day equivalent of Frankie Hejduk is.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah, good question.

Chris Wittyngham:

Well, I guess we can deduce that from the squad. I do want to ask you guys, do you think that based off all the conversations that we've had, based off the way that the U.S. left the Costa Rica game and leaves qualifying now, do you think that U.S. fans should be feeling optimistic about their hopes at the World Cup? Or is it too early and you're looking towards ‘26. Do you think Grant that the U.S. fan and that the way that we'll talk about the team for the next eight months is going to be surrounded by optimism and what the U.S can do, or where their shortcomings have been and if the U.S. have hopes to get out of this group?

Grant Wahl:

It depends which section of the U.S. fan base you talk to because you're going to get different perspectives depending on that. But should there be optimism around this us team? I think there should be because it's so young and because the ceiling is very high and I'm not just talking about 2026, I know that there's going to be more experience in that team for 2026.

The idea that that team could make a run deep into the tournament as the co-host with the support that comes with that, I get all of that. But I think if you then take that to say, oh, 2022, don't expect too much and it's really just a dry run for what's going to be big in '26. I think you're missing a real opportunity in 2022, because I think the World Cup more and more every time is a young man's sport, and young teams that can have really high levels of athleticism can play on these amazing surfaces that we haven't seen in CONCACAF. And are playing at a high level in Europe, like so many of these U.S. players are, Champions League level players, that I think it would be a mistake to write off 2022 as, oh, they're too young and this is just about '26. I think there's no reason that this young U.S. team couldn't make a run in 2022.

Landon Donovan:

Witty, qualifying in the World Cup could not be more different. I cannot overstate that. What this group of young men just dealt with in qualifying will not in any way resemble what the World Cup looks like. First of all, the beauty of these three-game weeks in qualifying will quite accurately resemble a World Cup. But I think that's the only resemblance. That is actually very helpful, because turning around and traveling and playing quickly in three short blocks is really important. But other than that, there is absolutely no resemblance. We've said this multiple times, I think a lot of people think this. This is a team much, much better suited to a World Cup than it is to qualifying just based on their age and inexperience in qualifying and not having not been through those battles.

I think there's lots of optimism here from me. I mean, let's just be honest, depending on which social media platform is where you're going to get, whether there's optimism or pessimism. I think we know how that goes. I think there should be optimism. I think this is what we used to do, when we were with the '17s, we would play against big countries around the world. A lot of them we would beat and we would say, well, why can't we beat these guys? Or why can't we play in the same leagues they play in? There's not a player in the world outside of Messi Neymar and Mbappe, Cristiano Ronaldo, who any of these guys will fear in any way.

They've played against a lot of these guys. They played against guys who are similar to these in their leagues, they see them every week. They're not intimidated at all. Weston McKennie doesn't care who's playing against. He thinks he's better and in most cases he is. Christian the same. I think there should be a level of optimism for sure, and I think there's a high level of confidence in this American team that they can go do something pretty special in the World Cup.

Chris Wittyngham:

I agree. I don't tend to take my cues from social media in this respect. I'm trying to form my own opinion. I was really interested last night, as the game was getting away from the U.S. how quickly everything becomes DEFCON 1 and every mistake gets hyper analyzed and we have to figure out what's going on, but I'm trying to figure out from my own head, did the U.S. do... I understand what you're saying, Landon, which is a lot of people pointed this out that the team that went to the quarterfinal and should have gotten to the semifinal in 2002 qualified in third, the team that went out in the group in 2006 finished first and qualifying that these two things are not necessarily related, but they are come competitive games that we are using, that are better judged than friendlies that are a better judge than anything we get to see with the U.S. playing together.

Perhaps the answer is we just don't know, that there is no amount of football that can be played that bears enough of a resemblance of the World Cup that you really gather enough data. But I just wanted to see more over the course of this qualifying. I wanted to see what I felt like the U.S. hitting their ceiling, the way that they did against Mexico in Cincinnati, the way that they played against Panama. I just wanted to see a few more of those performances to really feel like, all right, the U.S. are going to go and when they play these top level teams, they can hit their level. That's probably only something that they can really know for sure once they go to Qatar.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah, I don't disagree with that. My one area of pessimism is at the nine, because I was at Azteca. We were at Azteca. We saw that game. That was a very high level, fast, competitive game, but what we lacked was killer instinct in front of the goal. And Christian has it, but we didn't have that from a nine. When you get in a World Cup, I mean, we're talking about Asamoah Gyan and Ayew, the nightmares that brings. But if you have a killer in front of goal, that changes everything and these games are going to be so tight, so fine on the margins. I would feel much, much better if we had a dominant nine and I'm sure every team in the world says that, but that's how I feel.

Grant Wahl:

Well, I just want to say, thank you guys for doing this. I have really enjoyed doing these podcasts after every World Cup qualifier. This is the 14th out of 14. I've learned stuff. I run into people, fans, who like to listen, they say, and they've learned stuff too. So thank you, and we’ll have to talk to John Skipper and see if there might be a way to continue these leading to the World Cup and at the World Cup itself, because I certainly hope we can continue.

Landon Donovan:

I appreciate that. And if your agent gets you $1 million please try to get me $1 million as well and Witty as well, I know he's struggling down there in South Beach [laughs], but no, it's been a lot of fun. I do hope I really do hope it's not the last time. I know you and I will be there. I hope Witty that you're there too in Qatar, and should be a great ride. So thank you guys.

Chris Wittyngham:

If you had told me a few years ago, when I was watching the U.S. at a sports bar in the World Cup in 2014 that I'd be doing a podcast with Grant Wahl and Landon Donovan. I would've said you are absolutely out of your mind. It has been a distinct pleasure for me that you guys allow me to spew nonsense on here when you guys have way more credibility. I very much appreciate this experience and I agree. Let's do this in Qatar.

Landon Donovan:

Witty, let's be honest. We're not all we're cracked up to be, right?

Chris Wittyngham:

You're more.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. Right. You're seeing the real us now.

Grant Wahl:

Thanks guys.

Landon Donovan:

All right, guys.