Written Version: Landon, Wahl and Witty on USMNT 5, Panama 1

The boys got back together for our instant reaction podcast that we do after every USMNT World Cup qualifier. The written version is below with the entirety available for paid subscribers. As always, the audio version is free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Consider subscribing to GrantWahl.com here:

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Grant Wahl:

Hey there, welcome to Landon, Wahl and Witty on the Road to Qatar. I'm Grant Wahl. Thanks so much for joining us. We've got reaction from Landon Donovan, Chris Wittyngham and me to the U.S. men's national team’s 5-1 win over Panama on World Cup qualifying Matchday 13. Landon's in San Diego, Witty and I are in Orlando, Fla., where I'm writing for my Substack newsletter, which you should sign up for, free or paid, at GrantWahl.com. Guys, it's good to be with you. How are you?

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. [Laughs maniacally.]

Chris Wittyngham:

I think we're on the last step on the Road to Qatar. We've just passed the last exit, and we're just about there.

Grant Wahl:

That laugh from Landon reminded me of Jesse Marsch's laugh after he got off that comment on the media over in England about making fun of his accent.

Landon Donovan:

[Continues laughing maniacally.]

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. It was like two beats too long, that laugh, from Jesse Marsch. He was like, "Yeah. You see what I just did."

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. A lot of relief in both of our laughs there.

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Grant Wahl:

Yes. Christian Pulisic hat trick, U.S. four goals in the first half, two penalties. The U.S. had not drawn a penalty in this entire tournament leading into this game. First goal by a U.S. center forward, Jesús Ferreira, since Ricardo Pepi had two in Austin in October. There's a lot of stuff that happened tonight that we haven't been seeing much. Landon, what were your thoughts?

Landon Donovan:

You remember early in these podcasts we talked about piling on pressure. And the benefit of that is tonight showed up in penalties. So you just pile on pressure. And when you say pressure, that also is pressure on the referee. And referees are human, when there's... I don't know what the attendance is, or the capacity is in Orlando. But when you put pressure on the referee in front of that many American fans, they're human, and they're going to say penalty.

And were they the most clear-cut obvious penalties ever? Maybe not. But you put pressure on and good things happen. So I was really impressed with the way we started the game, how aggressive we were, and then you just put them under pressure and they crack. And the game was over within the first 30 minutes.

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. I thought after the first goal went in, that wave of pressure, and it's funny, that was the first thing you brought up, because it was the first thing I thought of when I was here at the game. And in the supporter section was, "Oh, this is the wave of pressure that Landon is talking about."

I thought the fullbacks got into very good positions. It wasn't always great playing out from the back, but once Shaq Moore got into attacking positions to put crosses in, I thought he was really good getting forward in those positions. I thought Luca de la Torre did tremendous work, connecting play in tight spaces. You can see the technical quality that he has. And I thought both of them were fairly stone-cold penalties.

And I know that when I flipped on, it's one of those things where I have a feeling at the stadium, but then you turn on social media, it's like a lot of people thought that there was some doubt in those penalties. I thought that they were fairly clear in the moment. Aníbal Godboy was doing a lot of shoving and a lot of physical contact before the corners came in, during the corner, and after the corner.

So I thought they were fairly clear. And I thought the U.S. just put together a 20 minutes of "We're going to end this game with our pressure and our waves of attack and getting forward and creating chances." In the second half, the goal that Christian [Pulisic] scored is absolutely sublime. And in the end, you end up with a 5-1 victory.

Grant Wahl:

Christian Pulisic hat trick, first in a U.S. uniform. How much did he need that given that this has been an up and down qualifying campaign for him?

Landon Donovan:

Grant, I think he really felt the pain, from what I saw visually in 2017, that game in Trinidad. I feel like he felt the pain more than any U.S. player. I don't know why, but it just looked like he was suffering more than everyone else on the field that day. And I think he felt like he missed an opportunity in Mexico to get an historic win for the U.S..

And you could see, even in his feistiness after scoring the first two goals in the first half, and getting the yellow, and the way he's talking to the ref, and getting into it with the Panamanian players. You can tell that he's got a bit of a chip on his shoulder, and when he plays that way, he's nasty and he's really good. And it was fun to watch tonight.

I don't know if he'll always have that, but that was really fun to watch. He had that little bit of edge that Gio has at times, and you need that in these games. And it feels like the U.S. team grew up a lot during this process. And maybe we'll get into that a little bit.

But I think Gregg [Berhalter]'s done a really good job helping this team just grow up. Think about the first qualifier guys versus today, and the professionalism and just how good we were in all facets of the game to get over the line, almost.

Chris Wittyngham:

And that edge kind of showed itself towards the end of that first half. And that incident with Michael Murillo, the right back for Panama, where he's having a go, getting in his face, has to be separated. And those are moments like, "All right. You're up for it." And particularly when you're wearing the armband, it's not exactly what the captain would... Normally the captain is a defuser in those situations.

But I think he was kind of set in the tone of, "If Panama wants to be physical, we're not going to let them." One of the things that I thought was interesting in the actual playing performance was that I thought that in the moments where he was able to really thrive the most, he's getting off the ball quickly because he is recognizing runs that are going off both of his shoulders. He'll then cut inside and create other moments.

I just thought he played a normal game as opposed to, I think too often he tries to be the U.S.'s hero. And I think he just played his game today in the way that he plays for Chelsea. And that's really all I've been hoping for for Christian for a while is, "Don't put too much pressure on yourself to do something beyond what you normally do, because what you normally do is so great."

And so I think we saw today just a very kind of normal performance where he was slipping passes through when they were on. He was combining with teammates when he was there. He wasn't really inviting as much contact, although Carrasquilla, the midfielder, took a decent chunk out of him, that probably he should have gotten a yellow card. But I just thought it was a fairly normal performance from Christian Pulisic. And that's kind of what I've been hoping for from him for a while.

Grant Wahl:

I want to ask you about this, Landon, because this idea of Christian trusting his teammates more tonight. I do agree with that. I wrote that after the game, that it's part of not trying to be that hero and trusting your teammates, and yet he still had a hat trick. And so when you're a player and you know that you are the best player on your team or one of the very best players, is that a process sometimes to get to trust your teammates more so that you don't try and do too much?

Landon Donovan:

I don't want to speak for him, but it certainly seems that way at times that he just cares so much. And I love that about Christian, he cares. And he's really devoted and dedicated to this, it's his life. There's not a whole lot else that he is, from my outsider perspective, so passionate about. He just really cares. And sometimes that comes across as trying too hard, and I would much rather have that than not caring enough.

So I just loved his demeanor tonight, I loved his attitude. Was it like the traditional captain demeanor on the field? No. But who cares? The guy just cares, and he wants to win and he wants to go to the World Cup. He missed out last time. He was the one guy on this roster who really missed out. And it was just fun to watch him play tonight. I was really excited for him.

Chris Wittyngham:

And the other thing too that I think is worth noting from, two of three goals were penalties. And the U.S. employed the tactic that Chelsea did at the Club World Cup, where they had someone grab the ball, stand over the spot, take all the shithousing from the opposing team and then hand the ball off to the guy who... I'm surprised that Panama didn't become wise to this for the second penalty. Because they did the exact same thing to Ferreira, it's like, "You're really going to fall for this again?"

Grant Wahl:

It's really funny. I actually called it the first time in the press box, I said, "Pulisic is going to walk in and take this, Ferreira is not going to take this." Chelsea is the epicenter, they're the ones who are making this spread throughout the world. And I kind of love it, because I really do hate all the nonsense that happens in the moments before a penalty is taken. And it seems to get worse and worse, and I think referees don't do enough about it. And so this is a-

Landon Donovan:

Great.

Grant Wahl:

... pretty cool response.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. It was really interesting. I was home watching with my associate head coach, Nate Miller, and some friends here. And when Ferreira grabbed the ball, I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." I was like, "Wow, Christian's letting... Or did Gregg say that before the game? That's very interesting." But then yeah, it was exactly what you said, Grant, it was just a little distraction to let Christian gather himself.

And both penalties were really well taken. And you could say, yeah, they're penalties that were part of the hat trick, but there's no guarantee. Penalties are not guaranteed, especially in a pressure moment like that. So I thought he handled it really well.

Grant Wahl:

I also wanted to ask you, Landon, so in the press conference that we just saw, Chris and I here, Paul Arriola was in it, scored a nice goal tonight. And he was asked about portions of the fan base not necessarily buying into him. And did he feel like he showed something tonight? And Arriola got this giant grin on his face when that question came.

And it was just kind of an awesome moment because this is a guy who works as hard or harder than anyone else. And a lot of times gets static for not being much of a finisher. That was a really nice goal tonight, and it was something that the U.S. needed, and it rewarded Gregg Berhalter’s faith in starting Paul Arriola. And I thought Arriola said something interesting too, he's like, "I know how valuable I am to this team." So he doesn't really care what some of these fans think, I think.

Landon Donovan:

Guys, in baseball, I think they have wins against replacement, and in basketball they have, I don't know what the exact term is, but there are guys who you play that just help you win. And statistically they're an anomaly. All the analytics people can't figure out what they are, who they are, because it makes no sense. He just helps you win.

And yeah, he got on the scoreboard tonight. But Paul Arriola is the type of guy who just helps you win soccer games, that's all there is to it. And look at FC Dallas now. DC traded him to Dallas, and Dallas are a pretty similar team to what they were last year.

And they're just better because Paul Arriola is on the field. And it's hard to quantify, it doesn't show up in any post-match stats, he just helps you win. And people can talk shit all they want, but the guy helps you win. That's it.

Chris Wittyngham:

And that's one of those things where I think fans would probably want a more “quality player in that position. I think when people look at Paul Arriola on that right wing, come a big moment, is he going to have that clinical finishing ability? Is he going to put that perfect ball into the penalty area or create a lovely one-two?

And that's just not his game, but Landon, we've talked about this before, but from a coach's point of view, what do you see just in terms of one or two facets of his game, whether it's pressing, or the overall running that he does, being in good tactical positions?

There are other players in the world that kind of carry this reputation of coaches really like him, but fans might prefer maybe a little bit more of a star, a more technical player, someone who creates more. What are some of the details that you see now from a coaching point of view?

Landon Donovan:

Jordan Morris is similar. They both stretch the field, they put you under pressure. I know I keep saying this, it sounds like a broken record, but he just puts you under pressure. And he's playing as a right-sided winger, but he's in the middle of the box on the cross from Antonee Robinson, and gets his head on it to finish it. But then he's responsible.

And ultimately as a coach, you want to know that you can trust your players. If there's one thing I've learned in three years, it's that you want to be able to trust your players. You know when you put Paul Arriola on the field, you put Jordan Morris on the field, you can trust the performance you're getting out of them. Is it going to be a 10 out of 10? Probably not, but it's not going to be a five out of 10 either.

You're going to get a six and a half, seven, seven and a half every single time. And I can't tell you how valuable that is. And I was just happy for him. He's dealt with a lot of criticism from people who want everyone else to play but him. And it was just a great moment for him.

Grant Wahl:

So I haven't said yet what the scenario is for World Cup qualification, in case listeners don't know, the U.S. goes to Costa Rica, plays on Wednesday. The only way the U.S. does not qualify for the World Cup on Wednesday is if Costa Rica wins that game by six or more goals. So the goal difference matters, scoring five goals tonight matters.

And so the U.S., if this had been a 1-0 game, we would be talking in a different tone, I think, heading into that game in Costa Rica. But one of my questions is, how is this game going to look? What is Costa Rica going to try and do to score six goals? Are they going to start eight attackers? How's that going to look?

Landon Donovan:

Well, my bigger question, Witty, I just want to hear your input. What do you think the U.S. lineup looks like Wednesday? What do you do if you're Gregg?

Chris Wittyngham:

Well, I thought, first off, the result allowed him to manage it very well. Because he was able to bring [Yunus] Musah off at halftime, he was able to take Pulisic off in the second half, [Tyler] Adams off in the second half. The only one that didn't get a breather was Antonee Robinson. So I'll be curious if he goes with him from the start.

But yeah, I think you kind of have to assess where everyone is at physically and then go again with your best team. Just because, at the very least for 45 minutes, you kind of want to get to halftime, 0-0. And I don't know how you approach that game in terms of, tactically, are you trying to create chances, or are you trying to hold on?

Do you put in a midfield of like Adams, James Sands and Kellyn Acosta, and just have three guys that are more holding in nature? But I think again it's who's fit and pick the best guys who've been playing the best right now. You get probably DeAndre Yedlin back in there because he was able to rest today. But it's-

Grant Wahl:

Tim Weah.

Chris Wittyngham:

Right. Yeah. You can put him back in there, but you start with [Zack] Steffen in goal, you pick [Walker] Zimmerman again, maybe Miles Robinson because they've worked so well as a tandem, maybe you can stick Aaron Long in there. But Landon, from my perspective, it's the best you got.

Because even though you can kind of consider it maybe a game that's meaningless because of the situation that we've laid out. I still think it's important to just make sure that you're not looking at a game that's 3-0 at half time and you're like, "Oh boy, is this going to happen again?" You have to put your best foot forward.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. From the beginning of qualifying, I've said the teams who have real depth are the ones that benefit now, especially because they’re three-game weeks. And so Costa Rica at the end of a three-game week, it will be very difficult for them with basically the same 12 or 13 players to have enough energy to run up a 6-0.

Now, I don't want to jinx anything, but to run up 6-0 against the U.S. is so unlikely. So you can play Sands, you can maybe rest Antonee Robinson, you bring Yedlin back in, you bring Weah back in, you can start Gio. You can start Jordan Morris, there's lots of ways you can do it so that you can at least get to halftime 0-0.

And if you really need to bring Christian in or whoever, you can do it. But the U.S. has, we have plenty of talented enough players to get a result. And by a result, I mean lose zero, one, two, three or four to Costa Rica and still be fine.

Grant Wahl:

They were talking in the postgame press conference about wanting to win for the first time in a World Cup qualifier in Costa Rica. So they are at least saying that publicly, what they end up doing may be a different thing. But personally, I would like to see the spine of the team not change all that much. I would like to see Steffen, Zimmerman, Miles Robinson, I'd like to see Tyler Adams start.

The guys that who also want to be out there, by the way, because this is a big moment, that you can qualify for a World Cup. I'd like to see Christian start this game, I'd like see Gio start this game. Now from a physical perspective, they talked in the postgame. I asked Gregg Berhalter about the stomach bug that, I think Fox was the first one to report this on their broadcast, that players had from Mexico.

And he didn't want to say too much to my question in the postgame press conference. But he did say that it affected 20 people from the U.S. delegation. And Gio Reyna was one of them. So who knows what the details are there, but it sounded like something that was a pretty serious concern over the last couple of days.

Landon Donovan:

Haven't we all had a stomach bug coming home from Mexico at some point?

Chris Wittyngham:

Not to get too graphic, but I experienced something myself coming back from Mexico. [Laughs]

Grant Wahl:

Thanks for sharing that, I really appreciate it.

Landon Donovan:

Please explain.

Chris Wittyngham:

No, I'm good. But yeah, that's why probably Gio Reyna only played the 45 minutes today. That was the biggest shock to the starting lineup, is that we didn't see Gio Reyna from the off just because he had a good half-hour cameo in Mexico. And then it seemed like it was obvious once Weah was out that he was going to start.

Grant Wahl:

Second biggest shock was his haircut.

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. Which I thought was tremendous, by the way. Well done to his barber. Is it the barber from your-

Grant Wahl:

David Marulanda checking in.

Chris Wittyngham:

... from your Substack story, subscribe on Substack, wherever you get Substacks.

Landon Donovan:

Free or paid!

Chris Wittyngham:

Free or paid. And yeah, so I thought like he looked fantastic tonight. But surprised that he didn't start, and Landon, to your point, I agree with you. There are a lot of options in this team that can get this job done without having to play the full compliment of starters.

And maybe you bring them on towards the end of the game to kind of allow these players, the main characters, to have their moment, if indeed the U.S. qualify, which they absolutely should do, but I keep saying if. Have their moment of falling to their knees while on the pitch and celebrating this glorious moment of the U.S. potentially going back to a World Cup for first time in eight years.

Grant Wahl:

Was it cool to see Canada make it today? Did you watch-

Landon Donovan:

Well, I'm half Canadian-

Grant Wahl:

I know you are.

Landon Donovan:

So there's a source of... I know everyone thinks I'm Mexican, American and Canadian now. So there was a sense of pride. Yeah. But it doesn't compare to watching the U.S. dismantle Panama in Orlando. I think there's something to what you just said though, Witty, the ability to be on the field when you qualify is so special. And correct me if I'm wrong, but are there any guys on this roster who have played now in a World Cup?

Chris Wittyngham:

Yedlin.

Landon Donovan:

Yedlin, right. And is that the only one?

Chris Wittyngham:

Off the top of my head-

Landon Donovan:

I think he can be the only one.

Chris Wittyngham:

Off the top of my head I think that's it. Yeah.

Landon Donovan:

Guys, just as a child, that is what you dream of, it's what you dream of. It's great to play for Dortmund and Chelsea … and Norwich [laughs]. It's great to play for clubs like that, but going to the World Cup, it's a dream come true. It's what every young soccer player dreams of.

And so to be on the field, hopefully, when that happens on Wednesday, is really, really special. And I think everyone thinks it's a fait accompli, but watching at the end of that game will be really emotional for all of us who were devastated when we missed out in 2018.

Chris Wittyngham:

The only other player from that U.S. team that would still figure in current squads is John Brooks. But everyone else who was there has basically kind of come and gone from their time in the national team.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. Can we just take a moment? I know Gregg gets a lot of heat and it's a sign of our sport progressing, which is good, people care and they're critical and that's great. But think about what this team looked like in the first qualifier versus what we look like today and how much Gregg has helped this team grow in all ways. And they've grown.

But I now look at our team and I say, "Are we perfect? No. But can we go into a World Cup and get out of our group?" I think so. If Weston's healthy, that's a crucial piece of it, but why not? Walker Zimmerman has really become, I think, a star, really. And this is a group of players, I think, who can be really competitive in a World Cup.

And I'm really excited actually for the draw now next week. It's going to be really exciting. And I think Gregg just deserves a lot of credit for taking a really young group and helping them mature and get to this point.

Grant Wahl:

I totally agree with you on that. And I'm ready almost now. Yeah. We’ve got one more game left in qualifying, got to finish the job. But I'm looking forward to moving toward the World Cup itself. And I know it's several months away, but it's going to be really fascinating to see where this U.S. team goes from here. You hope that they're going to get some good friendlies if possible, if we can avoid the playoff in June against maybe some top level teams.

Chris Wittyngham:

Well, they'll play in the Nations League, right?

Grant Wahl:

They do have that. But I also want to see them in September get some good friendlies in. And I want to see how this team can play against a top 10 team in the world under Gregg Berhalter. He literally hasn't had that opportunity, the players have not had that opportunity since 2018, under Dave Sarachan and they had some big opponents.

Chris Wittyngham:

Best team they played was Switzerland away. Right?

Grant Wahl:

Yeah.

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah.

Grant Wahl:

And that's kind of it. And so I really do want to see, because I think this U.S. team has another gear to go into. And we know how different the World Cup itself is from CONCACAF World Cup qualifying. I think they have guys who are, because of a lot of their top European club experience, I think that will help potentially even more at the World Cup than it does during CONCACAF qualifying.

Landon Donovan:

I think the key, Grant, though, is health. I think if everyone's healthy, and the reason I say that is because we don't have, all due respect to everybody, we don't have a world class number nine.

Grant Wahl:

Correct.

Landon Donovan:

We just don't. And we have to admit that, and we have some guys who are solid. We see how [Ricardo] Pepi keeps progressing, Ferreira keeps progressing, but we don't have a world class number nine. And so we need Christian healthy and 90 minutes fit. We need Gio healthy and 90... We need Weston. Weston is, outside of Christian, maybe our best chance creator. Just because he's so physically dominant in the box when he gets forward.

So we need everyone healthy, we need Brenden Aaronson healthy to create goals, because we don't have a nine, we don't have a [Robert] Lewandowski, or a Luis Suárez, or someone who could just take the ball and put it in the net, and that's going to be a factor. So assuming everyone's healthy going into November in Qatar, I think we have a chance to be really good.

Chris Wittyngham:

But that being said, you mentioned credit going to Gregg Berhalter. I think he should get a fairly big amount of credit for kind of the panic that was set in with the U.S. fan base, with the amount of injuries that the U.S. entered this camp with. With Aaronson out, with [Sergiño] Dest out, with Weston McKennie probably being the biggest one, with him out.

That midfield has found answers. I thought Kellyn Acosta played really well in Mexico. And I thought Luca de la Torre played really well tonight, with the different way that he approaches a similar position, which I think is a real credit to the base system. The system is fairly clear, the principles of play are fairly clear.

And even from within that, two vastly different players, and De la Torre and Weston McKennie can operate and operate well within that system. So I'll be really curious what happens when the U.S. graduates from CONCACAF and goes into playing games against European competition, or games that frankly are more normal. Because I feel like that does suit them just based off of where those guys play on a club level, but you can't really know for sure.

Do we think that the U.S. is going to express themselves and play a progressive pressing style with the ball, with possession against the top teams in the world and try to go toe to toe? Because that's what Gregg Berhalter has kind of been building towards for three years now in charge of the national team. And does he do it on the biggest stage, or do we see the U.S. kind of enter a different dimension?

As at times, Berhalter's Columbus Crew teams have done in big playoffs scenarios where they've shut down the like of DC United in playoff victories. And have not always played that same style in the biggest moment. So for me, it's really interesting to see what a different style of play manifests in this national team.

Landon Donovan:

I think the key is Weston, guys. I believe, and my guess is Gregg would say this too. If we had Weston at the Azteca the other night, we win the game. I think he finds a way to help us score a goal in some way. And not to beat a dead horse, but it was my frustration early on when he made some poor off the field decisions, is that this didn't have to be this dicey.

I think we win that Canada game if Weston's there. I really do believe that, he's so valuable in so many ways. And I think he's the key. He's a world class player. When you watch him play, he is a world class player, and he is entering if not already in his prime. So if he is healthy and playing well, it takes us to a whole different level, that we can really compete in a World Cup in a real way.

Grant Wahl:

On that note, guys, I'm going to sign off. Thank you for doing this as always. I am looking forward to doing this again on Wednesday night one thinks, after the U.S. has qualified for the World Cup.

Landon Donovan:

Cool. That'll be nice. I'm going to have a nice whiskey that night, guys. You too Witty?

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. Why not? On a Wednesday night, we'll crack something open.

Landon Donovan:

Can you do it on a Wednesday night in San Jose? We'll see.

Grant Wahl:

The funniest thing, by the way, somebody told me connected to the team that if there's a celebration moment of qualifying for the World Cup, and they have a beer sponsor, so they'll have a brand, they can't shoot video of... They have underage players.

Landon Donovan:

Jesus. But what about in Costa Rica, isn't it legal there?

Grant Wahl:

We have to do some research into the drinking age in Costa Rica.

Chris Wittyngham:

I'm on it.

Landon Donovan:

Well, the drinking age is probably 18, so that's legal there.

Grant Wahl:

Operation Get Gio Reyna a Beer.

Chris Wittyngham:

I have to get beer out of the jacket and shirt that I'm wearing, because I was in the Outlaws section tonight and there was an extraordinary amount of beer on my clothes. I smell horrendous. By the way, legal drinking age in Costa Rica: 18! Get Gio Reyna a beer. Let's go.

Landon Donovan:

Oh, let's create that hashtag, #GetGioABeer.

Grant Wahl:

Good night guys. Thank you.

Landon Donovan:

All right guys. Thanks.