Written Version: Landon, Wahl and Witty on USMNT 3, Honduras 0
Written Version: Landon, Wahl and Witty on USMNT 3, Honduras 0
The Last World Cup Qualifying Window in March Is Going to Be a Wild One
The boys got back together for our instant reaction podcast that we do after every USMNT World Cup qualifier. The written version is below with the entirety available for paid subscribers. As always, the audio version is free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
Grant Wahl:
Hey there. Welcome to Landon, Wahl and Witty on the Road to Qatar. I'm Grant Wahl, thanks so much for joining us. We've got reaction from Landon Donovan, Chris Wittyngham and me to the U.S. men's national team's 3-0 win over Honduras on World Cup qualifying Matchday 11. Landon is in San Diego, Witty is in South Florida. I'm in Saint Paul, Minnesota, where I'm writing for my Substack newsletter, which you should sign up for, free or paid, at grantwahl.com to get my posts in your inbox. Guys, it's good to be with you. How are you?
Chris Wittyngham:
Warmer than you.
Landon Donovan:
Relieved. Yes. Relieved and warm.
Grant Wahl:
Yeah, I mean, it's three points for the U.S., three very much needed points as the games are fewer and fewer in qualifying here. All three goals coming on set-pieces, the first U.S. set-piece goals of this entire tournament. And lots to talk about here, but Landon let's start with you, what are your initial thoughts?
Landon Donovan:
I'm exhausted, I don't know about you guys. Just emotionally, I'm exhausted. I had some buddies over tonight, fortunately seven minutes in this time it was the other way, the other feeling of happiness versus last time seven minutes in against Canada. So a great start to the game, the longer that game went 0-0, the worse it was going to be for us. So credit to Weston McKennie, who is hands down unequivocally the best player the U.S. has at the moment, and thank God for him, because he has singlehandedly, in my opinion, just taken this team on his back and said, "I'm going to lead us to the World Cup." And this is, you say the Road to Qatar, it looks like that road to Qatar got very short tonight, so it looks like we're on our way.
Chris Wittyngham:
Well, we're still watching the progress of the Mexico-Panama game. Before we logged on here, I said Mexico had scored, that goal has been disallowed.
Landon Donovan:
Oh, let's go.
Chris Wittyngham:
So it's 0-0 after 51 minutes.
Landon Donovan:
Actually, let's not go. We want Mexico-
Chris Wittyngham:
Right. Yeah, it's the one night we want Mexico to win.
Landon Donovan:
Okay.
Chris Wittyngham:
But so we don't know what the picture is yet, but this was a massive set of three points, and I would probably say, even though I really liked how the U.S. played against Mexico, this was the most comprehensive win I would say of this qualifying campaign. Honduras and the U.S. were battling the conditions, but really Honduras just offered nothing, they did not create barely a chance.
Matt Turner's only goal tonight was to not get hypothermia. And you look at the way that the U.S. performed on set-pieces, taking advantage of a poorly organized Honduras defense, and I was surprised to hear you say, Landon, that you kind of emotionally sweated that, because I don't know what happened to me, I had this sweeping wave of calm come over me before kickoff. Even though the lineup featured seven changes, even with the conditions, I just kind of felt like the U.S. had this and they really did from start to finish.
Landon Donovan:
As well, they should have.
Chris Wittyngham:
Right.
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Landon Donovan:
Honduras are by a million miles the worst team, but still a comprehensive performance and a great result of course.
Grant Wahl:
I really thought Kellyn Acosta filling in for Tyler Adams had a terrific game in a few ways, right? Because his set-piece deliveries were great on all three of those goals, and he almost scored one trying to deceive the keeper on a free kick that everyone thought he was going to put into the box to a teammate. And he just had a really good game overall I thought, really confident on the ball, smart passing, covered a lot of ground.
And Kellyn Acosta has had a really, I don't know, it's been an interesting tournament for him. He hasn't played that much. The thing he's probably stood out the most for was negative stuff in Panama where he had a pretty rough game there starting. And this was also the same guy who at the end of the Gold Cup final was delivering great balls for set-piece goals that beat Mexico. So he's had kind of an up and down year with the United States men's national team and I thought this was a huge game for Kellyn Acosta. And I thought it was interesting that even when Christian Pulisic comes in, Acosta kept taking the set-piece deliveries, which led to a goal for Christian Pulisic.
Landon Donovan:
Yeah, I thought a few things were interesting, when Christian came on the field Walker Zimmerman kept the armband, which I thought was interesting. Obviously, Gregg [Berhalter, the U.S. coach] has rotated the armband quite a bit, so not overly surprising, but that was interesting. But also to your point, I thought Kellyn and Weston were the two best players on the field.
Forget about the deliveries, they were just good enough to give the U.S. chances to create. And that's all you need when you are physically superior, which for the most part the U.S. were, and just organizationally superior. Just put the ball in an area where your guys can go get it. And I thought he and Weston again were the two best players on the field. But also Kellyn did a really good job of basically playing the Tyler Adams role. He put out all the fires, he tackled well, made the simple plays, and that kind of performance is the type of performance that helps you win in a World Cup Qualifier.
Chris Wittyngham:
And builds as well on the Tyler Adams role. While I think Tyler Adams is one of the best defensive midfield players in the world in terms of breaking up transitional moments and being a defensive midfielder, which is the name of the position, I do think that Kellyn Acosta and other U.S. players are better with pinging passes and keeping the team ticking in midfield. Not to say that Tyler Adams is bad at it, I just don't think that's his greatest skillset. And so I think that we kind of have learned in, as you mentioned, Grant, the up and down arc for Kellyn Acosta in the last year, that in games in which the U.S. can have a lot of the ball, and he is afforded the time and space to play passes, that those are the sorts of games that suit him.
Whereas I think the games where he has struggled is oddly enough really the only games that he has started up until now, which are these away qualifiers when you're rotating the team and they're hotly contested and it's about getting stuck in and it's about winning the ball in midfield, those are the games that I don't think that Kellyn Acosta has played well in. So time and space, he works well. And I thought, as you mentioned, sensational, not only with set-piece delivery, but keeping the team moving, there's not really a lot of guys that can switch the point of attack as often as I think this U.S. team needs to. And Kellyn Acosta kept doing it even in adverse conditions.
Grant Wahl:
So in the last podcast, I asked you the question, Landon, should Gregg Berhalter drop Christian Pulisic? And you talked about how at one point Bob Bradley had dropped you and Clint Dempsey during a Gold Cup game, and sure enough, Christian Pulisic got dropped from this lineup. Along with, by the way, other regular starters, Sergiño Dest, Yunus Musah, Brenden Aaronson. And it seems to me like Gregg Berhalter really decided to trust some guys tonight, like Luca de la Torre, Jordan Morris, Acosta, players like that, and they delivered for him. And keep in mind we know Honduras is not the opponent that some teams are, but still it was three really important points. How do you feel about Pulisic first, that decision to drop your biggest star?
Landon Donovan:
I don't view it as those guys being dropped. I view it as your depth is only valuable if you use your depth. We are much deeper than Honduras. We are much deeper than El Salvador and Costa Rica and Panama. Maybe not Canada, maybe not Mexico, but close enough. And the only value is if you use it. And so I'm not sure Gregg and his staff went into this and said, "Christian has had two below-average games, we're not going to play him because of that". I think it could have been the plan all along, Christian has not played games in three-plus weeks I think. Playing him three games in six days is dangerous from an injury standpoint, but also it's emotionally challenging and physically it's challenging. And it's not just Christian, there were a lot of other guys, so it's only valuable if you can use it when you need it.
And that was an advantage over the Honduran team tonight. We had seven fresh legs and they didn't have the ability to do that. And I know we'll get into this, but it makes me think already about the next three games. And how do you approach those three games? Because those three are all going to be absolute wars. If Costa Rica is still alive in the third game, I mean, all bets are off, right? That's a coin flip. And so you go away to Mexico, home to Panama, which will be playing for their World Cup qualifying lives, it will be the biggest game those players have ever played in. And how do you manage it in the right way so that you go into Panama and Costa Rica able to get something out of it if you don't win in Azteca or get a point in Azteca, and historically we haven't. So you have to be realistic about that too. So that'll be really fascinating to watch how that plays out.
Chris Wittyngham:
And Grant, I want to kind of talk about the framing of your question, which I thought is the correct one, which is, the other six guys got rotated and Christian Pulisic, because of who he is, I don't want to agree with you, I think I agree with you, Landon, that he wasn't dropped, but it does carry more significance when he doesn't start. And when he comes off the bench, he gets a goal and that's obviously huge for his confidence, but it is kind of an indication that... Weston McKennie played in all three games because he's doing a job and it's working. If Christian Pulisic was playing well in the first two games, I don't think he would've been on the bench from the start tonight even-
Landon Donovan:
Yeah, but Witty, no but he's also not fit, right. So physically, he's not playing-
Chris Wittyngham:
Tim Weah isn't either though. And although he didn't start against Canada, he did start tonight.
Landon Donovan:
Yeah, no fair. Okay. But I mean it's hard, to play three in a row is hard.
Chris Wittyngham:
Totally agree. I just think that because of the fact that he has captained the team, that he is the leader of this era, I think it is significant when he is dropped. And the one thing that I did notice tonight is that that might not entirely be his fault, because I think you saw tonight, it was a real imbalance in how much more the U.S. attacked down the right and how much more successful it was than down the left. Jordan Morris put in a fairly anonymous performance, as did Antonee Robinson who's been good at times with a national team. And maybe there's just an imbalance right now that the team attacks better down the right for whatever reason.
Whether it's the fact that Weston plays on that side and that just is the area of the pitch that is working better right now. But either way, I do think it carries significance when Christian is on the bench. And the fact that after the game, that's a talking point, I think, goes to show that his performances and his status carries a weight above everyone else's. And perhaps what Weston McKennie has done in this window, and has done for the last couple months for Juve and in the national team, will put him on that level to where it's now Weston and Christian's team. But for the most part, this team is very often viewed through the lens of Christian Pulisic, and I think tonight was another example of that.
Landon Donovan:
Yeah that's fair.
Grant Wahl:
Let's talk about the weather because that was the big talking point coming into the game. And basically it was exactly what was forecast, maybe even slightly colder, right around zero, below zero, wind chill minus-15. In the end, it wasn't the great equalizer that some might have suspected it could have been. That said, I always thought the U.S. was going to get three points from this game. I didn't understand, and still don't understand, the choice of feeling like they need to come here. And we do have reports from the Honduran media that they had two players come out of the game, the goalkeeper and Romell Quioto, and be treated for hypothermia, which isn't great!
And Gregg Berhalter was asked about this after the game and he said that, "Well, look, we gave cold-weather gear to the Honduran team, and when we've gone to Central America and Mexico over the years, we've been forced to play in really hot conditions that have caused cramping and things like that". So that's still a talking point after this game, and there's a lot of opinions out there. I hope the U.S. doesn't do something like this again. That's where I am on it. I know Landon you are in a different place though.
Landon Donovan:
No, I'm waiting for all the woke Twitter crowd and you to eat some crow. Listen, would they have won at Dignity Health Sports Park in LA, 3-0, at least? Yes. Would we have won at USD's Torero Stadium here in San Diego 3-0? Yes. But I believe that traveling about an hour versus the whatever, six, seven, who knows, connections that the Honduran team, plus dealing with the elements was a big advantage. Listen, I hope Quioto and the goalkeeper are okay, absolutely. But nobody in the history of qualifying has ever said, I hope the U.S. players are okay after Honduras scheduled the game at 2 PM in the middle of July for our qualifier, right? You're getting no sympathy from me on that. There's absolutely zero sympathy coming this way. And that being said, I do hope the players are okay, because we don't want anything serious to happen.
But I said to you guys before, I said to a lot of people who are sending me the same texts, "what the hell is the U.S. team doing? Why would they play in Minnesota"? I said, guys, "can we just calm down, see how the game plays out". If the U.S. lose and it's the ultimate equalizer, fine, that could happen. And that would've been a bad decision, but the reality is it helped. It helped us, it hurt Honduras and we won the game, and that's all that matters. And so could we have won the same way elsewhere? Of course. But we did what we needed to do, and I still think it was the right decision.
Chris Wittyngham:
I actually think that what you said, Landon, which is that no one shed a tear for the U.S. is a compelling argument. And I do think that the desire for other teams to make the U.S. play in the middle of the afternoon in September in 90 degrees-plus humidity, is their competitive advantage. The only thing that... You read the socials, a lot of the players after the game, is that I don't think the players felt like it was a competitive advantage for them. Like, when Matt Turner has to run to the bench to get a blanket on for 60 seconds or there's an injury time out, because he is that freezing cold. And every extremity on Christian Pulisic's head is beet-red because of how cold it is. And they're tweeting the Jack Nicholson covered in icicles GIF after the game.
I don't think that they enjoyed it very much. So that would be my only contention is I don't think the U.S. enjoyed it. I also think it slowed them down quite a bit, because the field was very dry and there were moments where the ball just didn't move. And look, fair play to that grounds team for even having it that nice, but I just don't think it was the advantage for the U.S. that they would've hoped it was. They had to turn to the Minnesota Vikings to get cold weather gear. I just don't think that it helped them. They're not used to this either.
Landon Donovan:
Yeah. But playing in Honduras in early September, on a terrible field, is not necessarily an advantage for Honduras either. It's what is the disadvantage for your opponent, right? You think Canada wants to play on a tiny field in Hamilton with all the good players they have? No, they knew that was a disadvantage for the U.S. team, and so they did it. And that's what teams all throughout qualifying do. Mexico could play at sea level somewhere against us, they play at 7,000 feet altitude, that's a bit of an advantage for them because their players are used to it but it's a massive disadvantage for everyone else who comes there.
Bolivia do it in La Paz at 12,000 feet altitude for everybody else who comes there. That's not because they like it and the players don't like it, but it's a massive disadvantage. So I think too much was made out of it, I think people were just sort of looking for a reason to get up in arms about something. In the end, whether they played there or Jacksonville or on Mars, I think the result would've been the same.
Grant Wahl:
Couple points from my end here. First, woke Twitter crowd... I think someone's been practicing in front of a mirror for that speech.
Landon Donovan:
That's what it is.
Grant Wahl:
And second, I mean look, it is what it is. And I've also had hypothermia, by the way, before once in my life. I can tell you the whole story about it was a Boy Scout camp out in New Mexico. Hypothermia is no joke, by the way.
Landon Donovan:
No, I believe it.
Grant Wahl:
But yeah, we'll see how those guys are, obviously hoping for the best there. And I haven't seen Luca de la Torre play that much at club level. I don't watch a lot of the Dutch league, maybe I should start a little bit more, he's with Heracles. I really liked his feet in this game. I liked what he did and what he brought. And I wonder if we're going to see even more of him potentially moving forward.
Landon Donovan:
Yeah. How do you, though, really get him on the field more with all the guys you have to think that are ahead of him on the depth chart, right? So unless he really turns it on in the next few months for his club, he's very much going to be a bubble guy for the World Cup, and he's going to have to have a really good club season this year and then starting into next year as we go into the winter, to make the team. But I thought he was good tonight. I thought his energy was good, his feet were good, he was clean. Not spectacular, but a good performance. And listen, all you can do is perform when you're provided the opportunity. And so was he spectacular? No. But he did a good job and that's all you can do, every time you get a chance you’ve got to perform.
Chris Wittyngham:
He's got the technical quality I think to drive the U.S. forward. And that I think is probably a skill that they just don't have enough of sometimes in midfield. And he, I thought, demonstrated that. It took him a while to get settled in, I thoughtthe first 15 minutes, it wasn't great, but then he grew into the game. But to Landon's point, you're absolutely right in terms of, he plays for a team that's fifth-bottom of the Eredivisie right now, which the bottom half of that league is not exactly filled with great teams.
So he will have to step it up at club level. And I do think as well though that that depth chart in center midfield, all of a sudden I do think he has a chance to make the team. Because you have Adams, McKennie, Musah, as your top three. Acosta is four, and then who else is in those center midfield positions you would say is definitively ahead of them? I'm not sure that there's really anybody. So I would probably put him fifth in the pecking order, which is probably good enough to make the proverbial plane to Qatar.
Grant Wahl:
I mean, it's also a very fluid situation, right? Because I would've told you that Walker Zimmerman might not be on the plane to Qatar just a couple of months ago. And now when I see Walker Zimmerman playing the way he has, being the captain for tonight at least, is he the best U.S. centerback at this point?
Landon Donovan:
I would say he is indispensable at this point.
Grant Wahl:
And that's incredible.
Chris Wittyngham:
Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I think I really like it. Because it was the partnership in Cincinnati for the Mexico game, him and Miles Robinson I think are a really good tandem. Particularly when they're going to head to the World Cup and the goal is... If they do, forgive me, I don't mean to jinx that, the goal is defending, the goal is being a good defensive central partnership, being good on set-pieces. Zimmerman in particular, from defensive set-pieces for sure, I think he can be unleashed as even more of a weapon from an attacking set-piece point of view, both for club and country.
He scored tonight. It was kind of a second ball, loose ball, and you just try and turn it and smack it into the back of the net. But I think Zimmerman brings a skillset where, I'm not sure that... Again, as you mentioned, he wasn't in the top of the pecking order at the beginning of qualifying because I don't think he has a lot of the skills that Gregg Berhalter wants in the center back. I think he kind of wants the best version of John Brooks from a technical quality standpoint, from a passing standpoint, but you cannot ignore the performances that he's put in. He deserves the position that he has as probably one of the first names on the team sheet.
Grant Wahl:
So big-picture here, let's look at where the U.S. is. [NOTE: If the U.S. gets at least a point at Mexico and beats Panama at home, it will qualify automatically for the World Cup. If the U.S. beats Panama at home and loses to Mexico and Costa Rica, the U.S. would only get an automatic World Cup bid if Costa Rica drops points either at home to Canada or away to El Salvador.]
That does present some really interesting possibilities for what Gregg Berhalter does with his team for those games because the second game is the one you really need three points from against Panama. And the second game of the window is also the game that the U.S. has played the worst in basically every window. It's really frustrating at this point, whether it's a home game, whether it's an away game, it's been poor performances in the second game of these three-game windows.
And we do know for certain that both the U.S. and Mexico will not be qualified when they play each other in the next game. And so that game is going to be just a battle. And I can't wait until we don't have three-game windows by the way. I think three game windows, it's a lot to ask of players and teams and I don't really like it. And hopefully it won't continue, it shouldn't because COVID is the reason we're doing this now, but that's going to be a fascinating window next month. And it's just right now I think U.S. fans are probably feeling much better with three points in the bag tonight than they were heading into the game after the loss to Canada.
Landon Donovan:
It was crucial, and we said it before the game. Was it a quote-unquote, absolutely, mathematically a must win? Maybe not, but it was absolutely a must win. So the question is how do you approach, I'd like to hear your guys' thoughts, how do you approach this next three-game window? And do you really think about putting a lot of your eggs into the Panama basket versus putting all your eggs into the Mexico basket and seeing what happens and then moving from there?
Chris Wittyngham:
It's a great question, because I do think if you were to look at it strategically, you would just put everything into the Panama game, but that leaves you with no margin for error. So let's say you field the team similar to the one you fielded this evening against Honduras with Jordan Morris and the team and Tim Weah, but also not Musah, McKennie, Adams. Not your full complement of guys, no Sergi˜o Dest. And you say, all right, we're going to go all in on the Panama game. Well then if you lose the Mexico game, then that only heightens the pressure even more. And then if you don't get maximum points against Panama, then everything is riding in Costa Rica. And we mentioned on the last podcast that the U.S. has done really poorly in Costa Rica. You don't really want to go into that game needing something.
So I think with three games to go, you say to your guys, "look, I understand you guys have your club situations to worry about, but best 11, be prepared every single one of you to play 270 minutes". And if you don't, then enjoy the rest that you do get. But I think you put everything in the Mexico game because they, even though there's a little less than 15 minutes left to play in their game tonight, have not looked great against Panama.
They have not really looked great in the entirety of qualifying, they're vulnerable. You can go there and get a point. You can go there and even maybe get three if you put in a really good performance. So try and win that game, and that way the Panama pressure is a little bit less and you can go out and just beat them. And if you beat them, then you're probably done and dusted. So I think it's, put everything into every game, and if you need something at the end of it and you got to turn to subs, it probably won't look great, but I think you have to go all guns blazing into this next game and trying to get maximum points on those first two games and I be done with it.
Grant Wahl:
In the words of the great Herm Edwards, "you play to win the game". And I would be really disappointed if the U.S. didn't put out a good lineup at Mexico, because I do think points can be had there, including three. And Mexico is struggling at home. And they're even talking down there. And now they're having a discussion down there about, well, so many of our players play in Europe, should we stop playing in the Azteca in the altitude because that's not an advantage for us at this point?
So yeah, I think Mexico is a beatable team. And that would just break them if the U.S. won a fourth straight. I do want to ask you Landon, as we wind down here, Chris has a recording we want to play for you.
Landon Donovan:
You love this, huh?
Grant Wahl:
Yeah. So since we're in a good mood here after a U.S. win, I want to ask you if you remember the Confederations Cup final press conference the day before in 2009? So the day before the final, and Michael Jackson had passed away.
Landon Donovan:
I do remember that.
Grant Wahl:
And I remember this because I was sitting in the front row of this press conference and slumping in my chair as this question continued to get asked about Michael Jackson. So you are in the press conference. Chris, can you play the audio?
Questioner:
I'm going to make you a question, Donovan, not about the game, but about the moment that U.S. is now crossing, the fact that Michael Jackson's dead. And you are too young for this, I'd like to know from your team, what impact does Michael Jackson's death have in the team? And if you are going to try to pay tribute tomorrow when playing Brazil to Michael Jackson?
Landon Donovan:
I was probably a little too young to fully embrace the height of the Michael Jackson era. Most of us were, but we obviously understand how big of a star he was and what a great entertainer he was. As far as tomorrow goes, I want to win the game and I don't know if someone will pay tribute or do anything. But obviously we're not taking away from who he was as a man, but we're here to win the game. And we have a lot of respect for Michael Jackson, but we want to win the game tomorrow.
Grant Wahl:
One, is this the most ridiculous question you ever got in a press conference? And how do you figure out what to say? This is the day before a giant final, and even in the moment in that room, I was like, what is this all about?
Landon Donovan:
That was a very good politically correct answer by me. I'm not sure-
Chris Wittyngham:
You're media-trained well.
Landon Donovan:
I'm not sure I would have the same answer today. I would've said something really stupid. Yes, it was the most, um, interesting question ever asked. And I guess it makes you realize that maybe it was way more of a story for the rest of the world than it was for us. And clearly a sad day, but a lot of people pass away every day, right. And I was also too young to really grow up in the heart, you were probably more impacted in that way Grant. But yeah, that was an interesting moment.
Grant Wahl:
My first album I ever bought in 1982 was Thriller. So very much in my wheelhouse.
Chris Wittyngham:
I do want to ask a follow-up because you get a briefing before you go into those press conferences, "Hey, here's what they might ask about". There's no way that the U.S. press officers were like, "you might get asked about Michael Jackson, have an answer ready, right"?
Landon Donovan:
Yeah. It was like, "your first final for the U.S. and they might ask you about Brazil and this dumb thing you said three years ago in a press conference". But it was never, "they might ask about Michael Jackson's death".
Chris Wittyngham:
What was the dumb thing?
Landon Donovan:
Oh, there was lots of dumb things. There's not enough time for that.
Grant Wahl:
My favorite thing also too was Bob Bradley, they kept asking, these journalists, questions about Michael Jackson, and Bob Bradley finally goes, "I had a lot of respect for Michael Jackson". And Bob was so serious. And Bob is a huge Bruce Springsteen fan and I think he made some sort of comparison or something. But Bob actually took some heat off of players from having to keep answering the questions by finally sort of jumping in there, but truly one of the strangest things ever. And then when Clint Dempsey scored in the final, he did a crotch grab to honor Michael Jackson.
Landon Donovan:
Clint might have just been doing that just ‘cause, might have had nothing to do with Michael Jackson. [Laughs] He was probably pissed off at his teammates or something.
Chris Wittyngham:
It was just an average football match for Clint Dempsey on that celebration.
Landon Donovan:
Exactly. Good news guys, Mexico scored. Normally not good news when they score, but in this instance we're happy. So we're four points clear now.
Grant Wahl:
So on that note, good news for the U.S., at least in terms of Panama. I think Panama is going to be in a dogfight now for the playoff spot with Costa Rica. So three more matchdays left in the 14-matchday odyssey of the Octagonal. We'll do this again in March, looking forward to it guys. Thanks as always.
Landon Donovan:
Looking forward to it. Thanks guys.
Chris Wittyngham:
See you guys.