Written Version: Landon, Wahl and Witty on USMNT 2, Mexico 0

Mike Ryan Joins the Group to Break Down a Huge U.S. Win Over Its Archrival

As we do after every USMNT World Cup qualifier, I was joined by Landon Donovan and Chris Wittyngham (along with the Dan Le Batard Show’s Mike Ryan) to discuss the USMNT’s big 2-0 win over Mexico in Cincinnati. I really enjoyed this discussion and think you will too.

Grant Wahl:

Hey there. Welcome to Landon, Wahl and Witty On The Road To Qatar. I'm Grant Wahl. Thanks so much for joining me. We've got a special episode in partnership with Meadowlark and Le Batard and Friends with reaction from Landon Donovan, Chris Wittyngham, Chris Wittyngham and me to the U.S. men's national team’s 2-0 dos a cero win over Mexico on World Cup qualifying Matchday 7. Landon is in Washington D.C. tonight. The rest of us are here in Cincinnati, Ohio, where I'm writing for my Substack newsletter at grantwahl.com. Go there to read all my stuff. Guys, great to be with you. How are you?

Landon Donovan:

I'm buzzing. I wish I was there. You guys must be electric.

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. I mean the atmosphere was crazy from minute one, walking into the stadium. It's jam packed. In the first half, you felt confident. The U.S. wasn't really vulnerable except for that one chance for Chucky Lozano, but you wondered where were they going to find the attacking breakthroughs from? Then they came in the second half.

Mike Ryan:

A true home-field advantage and all the games should be at Cincinnati?

Grant Wahl:

This was totally pro U.S.. You've got a few Mexican fans sprinkled throughout, but very much pro U.S.. We've been in so many stadiums over the years, for USA-Mexico games in the U.S., where that's not the case, where it's very pro Mexico. I want to get a sense of what happened in the second half of this game, because that was the best half I have seen the U.S. play against Mexico since maybe the 2013 World Cup qualifier in Columbus, where you, Landon, scored. Was that your thought?

Landon Donovan:

What it looked like to me, I said to someone at halftime, I was on the phone and I said, "Although Mexico had the two, certainly one, most dangerous chance, it felt like the U.S. had the tempo of the game the way they wanted it. The only way Mexico were going to get a chance was through Raúl holding the ball up, Raúl Jiménez, and maybe Chucky Lozano running behind." Off of that movement, him holding it and Chucky from outside-in to attack the U.S. team, but Mexico just looked like they did not have a way they were going to score. They never looked dangerous except for the one chance. In the U.S., in the first half, it wasn't clean or perfect, but they were at the top of Mexico's box over and over and over and over. You just felt at some point there was going to be some sort of breakthrough. I just felt like we looked like the team that was going to score, even though Mexico had the bigger chance in the first half.

Chris Wittyngham:

To me, the thing that most stands out about that performance is that the U.S. were the ones that were pressing. The U.S. were the ones that were causing Mexico problems. My feeling in the Tata [Martino] era has always been his sides come out and cause the U.S. problems, and you've got to survive the first 15 minutes. But it was exactly the opposite and Mexico never grew into the game. It never felt like this is going to be a team that is going to create consistent chances. I think that comes down to the center back partnership of Walker Zimmerman and Miles Robinson. Zimmerman, in particular, I thought was absolutely massive for the U.S..

You feel like you found a couple of center backs there. That's your partnership going forward. Play the two of them. They know exactly what they're doing. They negated Mexico. They did a good job. The one fear I had when you look at the lineup, the two Robinsons, Zimmerman and [DeAndre] Yedlin is, could this team play out from the back? They actually found direct forward passes that were not just knocking the ball along. It was with intent and Ricardo Pepi did a decent job with handling those. Tim Weah did a decent job at those, but really it was the assuredness of the fact that allowed them to press forward.

Mike Ryan:

I think we found our center back pairing for the World Cup run in Qatar. To see Walker Zimmerman really step up to this level in this moment was really reassuring and really good for MLS, and really good for the future of that center back position. They totally neutralized Raúl Jiménez.

Grant Wahl:

He really didn't have a big impact on the game besides decking Tyler Adams. Miles Robinson did get a second yellow, so we are going to see a different combination down in Jamaica. I think Chris Richards is a terrific player with a really bright future. I'm curious to see if we see him making that replacement, but Zimmerman did not put a foot wrong in this game. I did think Tim Weah was the man of the match for the U.S. For the second straight game, the game winning goal, connected to Tim Weah, a guy who wasn't even going to start ahead of Paul Arriola in the last game, and came in because Arriola got hurt in the warmup [against Costa Rica]. Do you get a sense, Landon, that Tim Weah is really starting to establish himself as a player who could make a difference for the U.S.?

Landon Donovan:

It certainly looked like it tonight. He looked comfortable, confident, like he belonged in the team. I haven't seen him look that way yet. So I think he's just growing, as all players do at that age, and feeling comfortable and confident. What you want, ultimately, is competition. You saw it tonight with Zack Steffen, and now Matt Turner. You saw it with Tim Weah's performance. When Gio [Reyna]'s back, what does that mean? What does that mean for Paul Arriola? You want that. You want competition, but I want to touch on Walker Zimmerman. I thought Tim Weah was fantastic, but for me, Walker Zimmerman was the man of the match. He just neutralized Raúl Jiménez in almost every aerial duel. The one he lost, Raúl Jiménez held the ball, laid it off and Chucky Lozano was in behind for their one chance. I also want to give Gregg Berhalter a ton of credit.

They came out and went after Mexico. We've seen the U.S. team in the past, a little more hesitant, sitting back, a little more savvy, tactical in the way they defended. They just went after them and put them under pressure. Mexico, to their credit, tried to play out and tried to play out and tried to play out, but Walker Zimerman was isolated one v one a decent amount of times and he just won every duel. The U.S. absolutely pummeled Mexico in just duels. I think it was like 65 to 40. They won every duel and that just turned the game into the U.S.'s favor so they could just keep Mexico pinned their end, pile pressure on, as I always say. Then eventually, they made them crack and won the game.

Chris Wittyngham:

Landon, am I being hyperbolic if I say that this is in some ways, the U.S. justifying, I think, what's been a journey for a decade, probably? When Jurgen [Klinsmann]  takes over, with Berhalter, they've been trying to implement a style of play so that when they go into big games, it's not just about bunker and countering and the hard work. Am I diminishing your achievements with the U.S. national team if I say that this is the U.S. living up to the identity that they've set forward for themselves more than they ever have?

Landon Donovan:

Here's the reality, Witty. In the late '90s, early 2000s, we played 15, 18, 20 games together a year, plus a January camp, so we were together all the time. We were able to build partnerships, build relationships. In modern football, you just don't have that. They don't have time to train together, work together. I've said that all along. It's really hard for Gregg to actually implement a style of play when you have guys for three days of training, and they're mostly just recovering because they played a game on the weekend in London or somewhere in Europe.

What I saw tonight , and what it felt like to me, was continuity starting to build. You had that same midfield three with Weston [McKennie] and Tyler [Adams] and [Yunus] Musah, and they looked comfortable. They knew how to play together. Center back pairing, or the back line pairing isn't always the same, but you're getting more of the same guys together on the field, consistently. Pepi now on the field consistently with Brenden Aaronson. All of that stuff matters because you start to build a rhythm with the player next to you. That's what you saw tonight. They look like an actual team versus a lot of really good, talented players who hadn't had enough time to train together.

Grant Wahl:

I also want to mention, I just came out of the press conferences, separate press conferences for Tata Martino and Gregg Berhalter, but the same word being used. A lot of intensidad from Tata in his talking about the U.S., and then Gregg saying first thing, "Intensity. That was how we won this game." He was impressed with their effort in the first half, but especially in the second half, he feels like they wore them down in the second half of this game and gave themselves the opportunity to get the goals. It still took Christian Pulisic coming on.

Mike Ryan:

Well, that's where I wanted to jump in. The super sub Christian Pulisic, the best player was being the best player. It's great to see him in that form. He flashed in that sub appearance in the Champions League for Chelsea. To see him really take advantage of this opportunity and be the best player, was super encouraging to me as a Chelsea supporter and as an American supporter. Landon, I'm curious what your thoughts were on Christian Pulisic's appearance.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. You know what that goal reminded me of, guys? That, to me, looked like a Clint Dempsey goal. When I saw it, it just looked like Clint. It was inside your guy, taking a chance, bang in front of goal and he smashed it home. You don't think of Christian as that type of player. But I've said this consistently about him. He does not have a weakness in his game. There's nothing he can't do on the field. That's why it's frustrating when he is injured, right? That's why it's frustrating when Gio's not here, right? That's why it's frustrating when Weston got into trouble or when he's injured. These are special players who can change the game in an instant. It was really fun to watch him come in after he’s been out for so long and make an impact. I was really happy for him.

Grant Wahl:

Christian Pulisic, by the way, showing off a t-shirt after his goal that said, "Man in the mirror." Now there's a story here. He's not just a Michael Jackson fan, everyone. Memo Ochoa, the goalkeeper for Mexico, had said this week, "Mexico is the mirror in which the United States wants to see itself." That ticked off this U.S. team. Gregg Berhalter talked about that yesterday. Lack of respect. Clearly, Christian, or someone close to Christian, put a t-shirt together at some point today.

Mike Ryan:

The producer was certainly playing Man In The Mirror post match, Michael Jackson. I'm sure the estate got a nice little chunk, but that was nice.

Chris Wittyngham:

I thought that was so random here in the stadium.

Mike Ryan:

I didn't get what was going on. I was reverse engineering why Man In The Mirror was being played. I didn't-

Landon Donovan:

They actually played it in the stadium?

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. After the final whistle, it wasn't Seven Nation Army. It was just Man In The Mirror.

Mike Ryan:

It was very random. I'm like, "Okay, this is a weird vibe."

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. Like, "Okay, cool. Let's celebrate. Man In The Mirror."

Mike Ryan:

I've never really danced to Man In The Mirror before to celebrate a win, but okay. Sure. Then I saw the tweets, and then Christian's-

Chris Wittyngham:

It's such a great narrative.

Mike Ryan:

Yeah, no it's fantastic. Nice little subtle troll, I thought, but I was totally taken aback by being able to sing Man In The Mirror with a bunch of American Outlaws. I've never celebrated using that song before.

Chris Wittyngham:

No, it's not a celebratory song.

Mke Ryan:

No, it felt weird.

Chris Wittyngham:

In no other stadium. It felt weird.

Mike Ryan:

It wasn't right.

Chris Wittyngham:

It felt weird.

Mike Ryan:

It wasn't right.

Chris Wittyngham:

Now we know. Now we get it.

Mike Ryan:

Now I get it and it'll be random, you know? It's just like Sweet Caroline with the Boston Red Sox. It slaps different.

Grant Wahl:

Landon, you mentioned Weston McKennie. You, obviously, have made some news in the past on this podcast talking about Weston McKennie. Second goal tonight gets it to dos a cero. Really solid game as well.

Landon Donovan:

He was fantastic. Listen, I'm okay if Weston hates me. I'm okay if his teammates hate me. My agent was mad at me after why are you saying that about him and all this stuff. He made my point tonight. When he's on the field, the team is different. When he's on the field, the team is different. When Christian's on the field, the team is different. When Tyler Adams is on the field, they are different and they are better.

Him missing a game really hurts the team, and you don't get that many chances in qualifying. Now, it looks like now, I think they're eight points clear. We're in good shape now, but you don't want to leave anything to chance, and you can't have a guy like that missing games for something that doesn't have to do with injury or suspension or yellow cards. It's okay. Be pissed off at me. Hopefully, at some point, people will realize that this is an important piece of this team. Maybe the most important piece. You saw it tonight. Forget about the goal. His presence is commanding, and he absolutely makes the team better.

Grant Wahl:

The three-man central midfield, MMA, McKennie, Musah, Adams.

Mike Ryan:

They were fantastic.

Grant Wahl:

This is the third time in qualifying that they have all started together in central midfield. Three wins, nine points. That's your three-man midfield. Yunus Musah was terrific in this game. You have to remind yourself, he's 18 years old.

Chris Wittyngham:

That's wild.

Grant Wahl:

He plays a lot better when he's got Adams and McKennie around him. The one game that Musah didn't play a good game in was in Panama when that wasn't the case. He's more confident. I was actually talking to him last night, Yunus, about this, right before we had dinner. He's like, "I just really appreciate Tyler Adams, even directing him, talking to him on the field, where to go." He feels like McKennie has somewhat similar characteristics to him, but that they play well off each other. Then Musah has this skill of being able to barrel through carrying the ball. That is a rare skill. We saw that a couple of times tonight, and it was clear. He actually drew some fouls that weren't called and got frustrated, but he also frustrated the Mexicans.

Mike Ryan:

Yeah, for sure. That jumped off. He made every smart play with the exception of, maybe, two passes where he could have played a wide. I thought he was very decisive with the ball.

Chris Wittyngham:

The thing that is most startling to me, and again, I feel sometimes, Landon, when we talk about previous U.S. teams and I'm like, "I'm taking out your former teammates." I just like the ball carrying ability and the confidence that he has to carry it through the midfield. There were a couple of occasions where, I would say, him and [Zack] Steffen set the tone because, in theory, you're supposed to be scared of Mexico and their press and them flying at you, but they are so unafraid of carrying the ball, of playing into dangerous areas. Musah has got, not really Zimmerman and Robinson for cover. He's in the middle. He's on an island and he's still taking on players in the middle. He has such confidence on the ball, and McKennie, the same thing. Their ability to carry the ball forward into attacking positions. Now the U.S., I didn't think until the final 20 minutes, were clinical in those final positions, but they got there so often because of those two.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. When you think about a team and how you put together a team, it's not always the three best individuals or the three most talented individuals, which in this case, they probably are also that. But Tyler and Weston and Musah compliment each other perfectly. Tyler didn't show up tonight around the ball a ton, but every time he's around the ball, he makes the play. I can promise you he's organizing them so that it makes it really difficult for the Mexicans to break them down. I'm just so impressed with Tyler and how he's grown. Then Weston and Musah, like you said, they have this ability to take the ball and run by people. I've said this to you guys before on here. In the modern game, that is becoming more and more rare. The ability to take the ball and advance it 20, 30, 40 yards by yourself is so valuable.

Mike Ryan:

Witty: Zack Steffen, did he lock this up?

Chris Wittyngham:

I don't know, because [Matt] Turner is such a good MLS goalkeeper. He'll flash again by the time the January window comes around because Man City are out of the Carabao Cup now. He won't be playing very much. Who knows what that's like come January? I think Steffen was a very intentional choice from Gregg Berhalter in this game, because you knew that Mexico were going to press and you needed the goalkeeper to play 10 to 15 passes over the course of the game, to play over them, to be the outlet. You can see a measure of confidence in defenders turning and playing it back to Steffen.

They know he is not going to make a mistake, and they know that he has some intentionality with the ball. That would be my one criticism of Matt Turner, is that he just knocks it long. There's a difference between knocking it long and playing long passes. Steffen plays long passes, and you saw the confidence. He made the two or three saves he had to make, including on Chucky Lozano, which was the best chance of the first half. Those are the moments where it's like, all right, this is where Steffen proves himself and solidifies that position ahead of Turner. I thought he came up big in every occasion and was that outlived from a passing point of view.

Mike Ryan:

He’s super decisive, Grant.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah, he was. I guess the question I would have though is, is there a goalkeeper controversy? Do you pick one guy going forward? Who do you pick to start against Jamaica on Tuesday? Landon, what would you do if you were Gregg Berhalter? Would you name a starter, name a number one, or continue to leave it up in the air?

Landon Donovan:

It's a good question. I'm not there every day, so I don't see what they see there. It's obvious that Zack impresses everybody in training every day because Matt Turner has been flawless. The fact that you're taking out a guy who's been really good for you, has not put a foot wrong, and you're replacing him with someone else, tells you how good Zack Steffen must be in training, or how high they are on him. It's hard to say at this point, but it's a good problem for Gregg to have. He has two outstanding goalkeepers. My guess is that, of course, Matt Turner wants to play. But if you think about where Matt Turner was a year ago, he’s also just very grateful that he has this opportunity.

Grant Wahl:

In the big picture here, this is the third U.S. win against Mexico in the last six months. This rivalry, over time, has had its ebbs and flows, obviously, but there was a several-year period until this year that Mexico has had the upper hand. Now in 2021, three times the U.S. has played Mexico. Three times they've beaten them. What does that do for the U.S.' confidence in this rivalry moving forward? Where does it go from here?

Landon Donovan:

It's crucial. What we've said all along is this is a very young U.S. team, but tonight, they just looked like they own the game. They bossed the game. They knew they were going to win the game. They were not afraid in any way. I want to walk us through. In the past, it was all these Mexican players playing either for huge clubs in Mexico or in Spain or in Holland or somewhere overseas. Now, when you just walk through the U.S. lineup: Man City, Barcelona with Sergiño Dest, who's not here, Leipzig, Chelsea. You can go on and on. Fulham.

Grant Wahl:

Norwich. Oh wait, no Norwich this time.

Landon Donovan:

[Laughs) Touché. With big players playing at big clubs. I just think we just have more talented players right now. Then, when they play like they did tonight, where they are cohesive and they look like they're starting to build continuity, they're just a better team. There's no other way to say it.

Mike Ryan:

The decisiveness, the continuity, the confidence that they played with today, it really jumped off the pitch. What was that? Was it the narrative building up to this game? Berhalter, obviously, with Man In The Mirror afterwards, he seemed to really connect with some of these players, Grant.

Grant Wahl:

He has. When you see Gregg Berhalter interact with these U.S. players, it's not like it's uncomfortable or anything. He really has put in the time to build relationships with these guys. He realizes how young this team is. I don't even know if we always think about that. These are teenagers and guys in their early 20s. Yes, they are, in many cases, playing at elite clubs, but they haven't played that many games for the U.S., especially big games like this one. I do think because of COVID, because they hadn't played that many games together, game by game it's getting better in qualifying is what you're seeing. I think that's a really good sign, not just for the qualifying process which, obviously, is extremely important because they didn't qualify four years ago, but once they get to the World Cup and feeling like they can make a run at the World Cup.

Chris Wittyngham:

My feeling about what Gregg Berhalter has done, specifically, I'll go back to that summer of 2019 when they lost the Gold Cup final in Chicago. Then a couple of months later, they lost in New Jersey to Mexico. Mexico pressed them off the park. There was this conversation about what are you doing, continuing to play out of the back? What are you doing asking a group of players that can't do this to keep doing it? I think today was, in some ways, the justification for continuing to do it. For saying, "This is who we're going to be. It'll take us two years to get there but, really, the games that matter don't come until two years."

I hate to be hyperbolic, and maybe it's because we're here in the stadium and I was in the crowd. I was cheering and it was awesome, but I don't think we have properly appreciated just how crazy it is that a U.S. tea, not only went toe-to-toe with Mexico, but dictated the game. They played the game on their terms, made Mexico uncomfortable and continually played through them. They kept playing and playing and playing for 90 minutes. I never felt like the U.S. were in any real danger of conceding a goal. I felt like, eventually, the U.S. goal would come. For me, it was purely on the basis of how they were playing.

Landon Donovan:

I can't remember, guys, a U.S.-Mexico game where we played the game and you never felt like Mexico was going to score. I can't remember a game like that. Tonight they just looked like a team that was never going to score. I was so impressed.

Grant Wahl:

Any last points anyone wants to make?

Chris Wittyngham:

Well, if we're going performance by performance, I think defensively, Antonee Robinson didn't have great service in the final third, but he contested well. I want to go back to that central defensive partnership. Robinson and Zimmerman, it is, I agree with Mike, a tribute to MLS that you've produced a couple of defenders that are this solid. Sometimes the job is defending. It's not about finding the most talented players. It's not about finding John Brooks because he can play, or Chris Richards because he can play.

You just have two guys that put out every fire, Walker Zimmerman on every header. When you look at the front three of Mexico—Tecatito Corona, Chucky Lozano, Raúl Jiménez—doing absolutely nothing for 90 minutes. It's a testament to those two guys. It's a testament to that back four and that solidity with which they played. Obviously, Tyler Adams in front of them does a really important job, but the job that Zimmerman did to completely nullify Mexico, for me, is the standout of this game.

Mike Ryan:

I don't want to ignore Christian Pulisic coming on as a sub. He hasn't played in so long. Chris, like when we're on the pitch, you always say, "Be the best player." When we're playing our Sunday beer league games, be the best player. Christian Pulisic came on in a crucial moment and was the best player, got a crucial goal, Grant.

Grant Wahl:

It's important to point out now, this is the second straight game against Mexico for Pulisic in which he has scored the game-winner. As you know-

Chris Wittyngham:

Although, he was much better tonight than he was in Denver.

Grant Wahl:

Sharper.

Chris Wittyngham:

His overall performance was much better. Different situation.

Grant Wahl:

If there's one player who knows that if you're a U.S. player and you want to make your bones in the end, perform well against Mexico. Right, Landon?

Landon Donovan:

Yeah, I would agree with that. He did it. Listen, only knock on Christian is him staying on the field over the course of his young career. When he's on the field, he is a difference-maker in every way. It's why we all feel the way we do about him. He is special. He's special and he is different. Witty, to your point about the back line, let's also talk about just the pure athleticism that the U.S. team has now. Walker Zimmerman is an absolute beast in the air. Athletically and physically, so dominant. The play that Chucky Lozano gets played behind, DeAndre Yedlin sprints with him for 50 yards and makes it a lot harder chance than it could have been. Then, with the two Robinsons, just athletically, they just put out a lot of fires with Tecatito, with Chucky Lozano and that's a big piece of it. Athletically, we're just better, I think, than we've ever been, and that's a big piece of it.

Chris Wittyngham:

That midfield three is plenty athletic as well. I guess the one player that we haven't talked about at all is Pepi. Was that a down performance from him?

Mike Ryan:

I think so.

Chris Wittyngham:

I felt like through an hour he did what you would ask him to do. He scuffs a chance, but was that a down performance?

Mike Ryan:

He didn't have the opportunities. I think he's locked down that position, Grant.

Grant Wahl:

Who else is going to play it in this camp?

Chris Wittyngham:

In this camp, there's nobody.

Grant Wahl:

In this squad. He had a good setup for Musah, when he laid him off the shot that Musah sent over the bar.

Chris Wittyngham:

Landon talked a lot about those duels. I thought Pepi was involved in a lot of those and had a couple of nice flick-ons that helped the U.S. play. I thought as a connector, he did his job tonight.

Grant Wahl:

He battled, and I think this was an important game. It was Pepi playing against Mexico. He just decided to play for the U.S. over Mexico. I'm sure he was totally revved up for this game. Maybe now, he knows that even if he doesn't have a great game, he's going to start on Tuesday in Jamaica. Do you think that helps him, Landon, to get this game behind him?

Landon Donovan:

Yeah, maybe. I can't tell if maybe he was a little revved up or emotional. It's hard to know for sure, but he was okay. He did, I think, what you want him to do and what we expect him to do. He was on the end of four or five balls inside the box. I think the U.S. had 12 shots inside the box, which is a huge number, a huge number in an international qualifier. He was on the end of a lot of those. Now, they didn't come off, but on most days he's probably going to score a goal. He had two or three half chances where a guy of his quality is going to score. I thought he was fine. He wasn't excellent like he has been in other games, but I think he's 18 as well. We have some time with him.

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. Let's give him some slack.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. We can chill out a little bit. He's been fantastic.

Grant Wahl:

All right, guys. This has been a blast. Really appreciate you having this discussion. Let's do it again on Tuesday after the Jamaica game.

Landon Donovan:

Dos a cero!

Chris Wittyngham:

Dos a cero. Oh man, there's nothing better than walking through a concourse and chanting dos a cero.