I can’t believe it has been 11 years. Back in 2010, while I was in Madrid reporting a story on Real Madrid manager José Mourinho, I had coffee one afternoon with two great writers, Sid Lowe and Santiago Segurola. Both are defining chroniclers of soccer in Spain, and it hit me this week as I was returning to Spain that more than a decade had passed since that chat. Where does the time go?
Thankfully, Sid had some time in his busy schedule to catch up for a discussion on the state of soccer in Spain. I think you’ll really enjoy this one.
Grant Wahl:
Hey there, welcome to Fútbol with Grant Wahl. Thanks so much for joining me. Today's interview guest is Sid Lowe, the terrific Madrid-based soccer journalist for The Guardian, ESPN and the Spanish Football Podcast. Please note that we recorded this on Wednesday before Barcelona manager Ronald Koeman was fired on Wednesday night. Sid, it's great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Sid Lowe:
Morning, Grant. How are you doing?
Grant Wahl:
Doing well. And there's always a lot to talk about, in Spanish soccer. But we just had El Clásico. So let's talk about that to start here. Barcelona 1, Real Madrid 2. Are Barcelona's issues long-term issues in your opinion? Based on all the stuff we've seen about the debt being more than a billion dollars, is this something that's going to go beyond this season?
Sid Lowe:
Yeah, I think it is. I think the optimistic view of it from Barcelona’s point of view would be to kind of respond to your question by saying, are the issues long term issues? Yes, the solutions are long term solutions as well. Because of course, the focus from an optimistic point of view, as far as Barcelona are concerned, is the emergence of a new generation of really very talented players. Ansu Fati, Nico González, and obviously Gavi as well, Pedri who of course was so good at the European Championships.
And so that I think provides a sense that, while this is a far deeper problem than simply the departure of [Lionel] Messi or a far deeper problem than simply there is a financial issue here that we need to deal with, but it also means that people think yes. But the process moving through this season into next and even the seasons beyond is that there is enough there in terms of raw material, in terms of talent, to believe that they find a way through. But there's absolutely no doubt that Barcelona's problems are very significant.
There was always likely to be a period post-Messi that was problematic. But I think what we have seen, particularly with the changeover of president and now having a new president, Joan Laporta, who of course has both the honesty and also the vested interest in explaining quite how bad the situation is, is that this is much more than just a transitional period from arguably the greatest player they've ever had to something else.
It's about the financial crisis, a club that's technically bankrupt. It's about the redevelopment of the stadium and the cost of that and finding a way through. And so, this is why when in the summer the focus on keeping Messi was of course about effectively LaLiga's financial fair play rules. And that was about getting underneath the bar for an immediate solution. In terms of right now, can we renew this guy? But of course it's beyond that because no you can't, but also you can't because the overall picture is so desperate.
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Grant Wahl:
How many years have you been in Spain by the way?
Sid Lowe:
Too many [laughs]. I came in 2001. So it's 20 years now, and covering Spanish football since the previous season. Because when I first started, I started kind of halfway between England and Spain, going backwards and forwards between the two places. But living here permanently since 2001.
Grant Wahl:
Okay. We're going to definitely get into your story a little bit more later here, but I just wanted to give our listeners a sense of how long you've been here and where you see from like the 30,000 foot level Spanish football right now. Because for so many years Messi and [Cristiano] Ronaldo were defining characteristics, not totally defining, but defining characteristics of Spanish football, neither one’s here now, but obviously there's still football going on. There's still a lot of great players here. Like where are you seeing, in the big picture, what Spanish football is right now and in the coming years?
Sid Lowe:
I Think one of the things that made Messi and Ronaldo so unique was that longevity, you look at the level and obviously Messi more so because Ronaldo was in Spain, was it, a decade. Messi was here for 16 years. So it's almost the same again. And it's just the consistency of performance. The fact that we're not talking about a couple of guys who were the best couple of players in the world for a period, but were there for an entire generation.
As we said, I came here in 2001. So I saw for those first six, seven years, it felt like a rotation of who you might think was the best player in the world. So one year maybe you think it's Brazilian Ronaldo, well maybe it's [Zinédine] Zidane, maybe it's [Luís] Figo, Ronaldinho certainly for a couple of seasons.
And then you get these two guys and without having any desire whatsoever to get into the argument about confronting the two of them and who's better between the two, you get these two guys who defined an entire generation. As I say, in Spain's case Messi more so because he was here so much longer. And I think that makes us now, at this juncture think, wow, it can never be the same again because these guys were everything or felt like they were everything for the best part of a decade. But of course there was a period before them. There is now a period after them, there will always be other players coming. I do think it's very difficult to imagine a situation in which you get that level, and so focused on two individuals.
In fact, I think it's impossible. I mean we saw, I think in the buildup this week to the Clásico, this desire to create a kind of Ansu Fati-Vinicius thing as if they were Messi and Ronaldo. Now with the greatest respect to two players who I think are going to be wonderful footballers, and I think already are very good footballers. Get out of here. And it felt forced, but it felt forced because there's a need, there is a need and we all feel this need. And you could see this, for example, in the summer when it looked like Real Madrid were going to sign Kylian Mbappé. And I think we all believe that they probably will next summer. And this sort of desire, like, can Barcelona please get [Erling] Haaland? Because we want to recreate this. Now I think, that as I say that speaks of a need, but I also feel that it doesn't necessarily need to be like that for Spanish football to continue.
These are still huge institutions. The nature of, well it's life, but in particular, it's life in sporting terms. Cycles are short. And what was extraordinary about Messi and Ronaldo was that cycle wasn't that short. It will come through and there'll be other players. There is a much broader question, which of course speaks to how we began the podcast, talking about Barcelona's problems, which is the financial difficulties that Barcelona have, and Real Madrid have to a much lesser extent.
Real Madrid have managed the pandemic brilliantly, but they are not flushed with cash. That is true. They have the money. They've kind of protected themselves through these last three years of financial difficulty. Not really spent it, to prepare for the pursuit of Mbappé. And of course they've been done in a way, a huge favor by Paris Saint-Germain, but the fact that they're now going to get him for free, if they get him, let's see if that happens.
And that maybe enables them to use the 180, 190 million euros earmarked for him on bringing someone else as well. But there is a reality, which is that Spanish clubs are concerned about the power of, well look, the president of Spanish league Javier Tebas always talked about the state clubs. In other words, PSG and Man City. It may well be that in four years time we're talking about Newcastle United as being one of these as well. But there's a much broader question, which is the power of the Premier League.
And from a Spanish football perspective. And I think it's important as well that we break the prism of it only being Real Madrid and Barcelona, there is a worry now that an average club in the English Premier League can offer the kind of salary that no one outside of Madrid and Barcelona, maybe Atlético can offer in Spain.
And so broadly speaking, there is an issue there, but Spanish football is rich in kind of identification with clubs. It's certainly rich in youth development. It produces very, very good players. I think it produces good storylines. And I think sometimes we have a kind of an extreme case of recency bias or even being enclosed in the moment and not being able to see that this becomes cyclical. Now, obviously those cycles become more and more entrenched because money becomes more and more important.
So the optimistic part of me thinks, well, Spain will work through this because it continues to produce good players. The pessimistic part of me thinks this is reaching the point where this entrenched economic advantage that the Premier League has may never be broken. Except of course that they are largely running at debts, those clubs. So it could well be that there's some point at which that catches up with them.
Grant Wahl:
I mean, and this is part of why the Super League idea came about. Right?
Sid Lowe:
Absolutely.
Grant Wahl:
And so I do wonder, like in Spain there was certainly the indication that the public was not nearly as against the Super League idea as the public in England, but sometimes I felt like that was also Florentino Pérez, the Real Madrid president, trying to put that out there.
Sid Lowe:
Yeah.
Grant Wahl:
That the Spanish public felt that way. What's your actual sense of how people here felt about that?
Sid Lowe:
I think both of those things are true. So I think it's true, of course, that Florentino is the president of what would've been the Super League pushed this idea that fans were disengaging with football, that there was a huge crisis, which of course rebounds against you when you say there's a huge crisis and then you go into the market and try and sign players and so on. But in fairness to Florentino Pérez, he wasn't talking about Real Madrid, he was talking about what he defines as football. Now, of course my issue with that really is that his definition of football is a very narrow one. What he really needs is clubs like us. And that partly gives you the answer to the other part of your question, which is about the way that Spanish fans in general felt.
Now, I would suspect that Spanish fans in general didn't particularly like the idea, but there was certainly no mobilization against it, except in very few cases. There wasn't this kind of furious backlash that you got in the Premier League. And also there isn't I think in Spain and some Atlético Madrid fans won't be pleased with me for saying that because some Atlético Madrid fans will say, well, we did actually reject this. And we did actually make our feelings felt. And we did impose a caution on Atlético Madrid who of course were involved and pulled out very quickly. And they were the only Spanish club of the three involved that actually had some sort of fan backlash. The reason why I think it wasn't so powerful in Spain. I think there's lots of reasons, but I think there are a handful of very important ones.
Number one I think is the fundamental structure of Spanish football and the dominance of Madrid and Barcelona. So in other words, I feel like it's kind of hardwired into the minds of Spanish fans that the league is a Super League anyway almost. The big clubs not really caring about the other clubs or big clubs wanting to sort of take it their way is sort of just what's already happened. Even if that's only at a psychological level or even at some subconscious level, I think that's there. And so when you get the response of Madrid and Barcelona fans and you'd get some that rejected this outright, but that sort of, think "Well, why not?" It's partly because they're looking at their league and thinking, well, we're sort of above this anyway.
And I think that also is then filtered through the media. Now, obviously part of it is, as you are saying, Florentino Pérez is very powerful. And that means that media messages are sometimes guided by him, but I think there's a less direct or less cynical way of looking at it, which is that the media here is so dominated by Madrid and Barça but it's guided by the kind of principles that suit those two clubs, rather than if you like a global view of what football is. Now, football too often in Spain is taken to be those two. So if those two want it, then it's good for football. Well, hang on, let's back off and redefine what football is here. And so I think that's part of it, but it's absolutely true. Yes. That the response to the Super League here was nowhere near as furious as in England.
And now partly through those kind of influences, partly through Madrid and Barcelona’s continuing to cling to this idea, even if it’s likely to be in a different form, I think it means you actually now get some people who are pushing for this. And then you get this bizarre scenario in which things that go wrong in Spain are then projected as a reason for a Super League. So a refereeing decision goes against Madrid and Barcelona, "You see, this is why we need a Super League." As if there won't be any refereeing errors in a super league. I must confess, on a personal level, I've found some of the arguments completely baffling and quite absurd at times, but I think it is important to understand the context within which, if you like, those reactions come.
Grant Wahl:
No, I really appreciate that explanation. It's also true right now that the defending champion in La Liga and the current leader as we speak are not Real Madrid or Barcelona.
Sid Lowe:
Yes.
Grant Wahl:
Real Sociedad is leading the league right now, Atlético Madrid won the title last season. Let's start with Sociedad. Like, what do you think about Real Sociedad and whether this might be sustainable and how good are they, how good is Alexander Isak? I have questions.
Sid Lowe:
Yeah. They're a lovely team to watch this season. They're a team that I think are playing with a variety that they didn't have in previous years. And in fact, in part that variety is that they're not quite as lovely to watch sometimes. They discovered a defensive solidity. They were a nice combination I think, between a technical team, a possession-based team, and a team that they would then run at you, that would then open the pitch out and really go for you. And they had a nice combination there.
I was writing about them a week or so ago, and it occurred to me that Real Sociedad are everything you wish your team was. A team that's close to its community, a team that has done, a club rather than just a team, that's done really good work in redeveloping a stadium that was a disaster. Got rid of the athletics track, understood that they needed to bring the fans physically, quite literally closer to the players, a club that brings through huge amounts of youth team players.
The only club in Spain whose B team is currently playing in Spain's national second division, that's how good their youth development is. A club that has a former player, youth team product, former B team manager as its coach, who understands this absolutely perfectly. A club that on top of all of that has got Xabi Alonso as its B team manager. Everything you do feels almost perfect.
So to answer the question is this sustainable? The model and the development and the direction they're going in is absolutely sustainable. That's not quite the same thing though as saying that being top of the league is sustainable. I think there are some things they don't have that other clubs have. Sometimes we can analyze forever, but you just go, are they as good? Probably not. But maybe, maybe.
One of the things that's been so striking about them this year is that they kept on having injuries. Every time they have an injury, it feels like another kid has turned up from the B team. Another kid comes on, plays well again, and it's done with a naturalness, which I think possibly wouldn't be, it wouldn't be possible I think in an environment in Madrid and Barcelona, because of the degree of pressure. I think it's a different type of environment as well.
And, to add one more element in, they also happen to be based in pretty much the most beautiful city in Spain. So, I mean, you guys are taking the piss now. This is just sort of almost too good. And if they were to win the league on top of that, but I think they are a wonderful, wonderful team. And as you say Alexander Isak, I think we sometimes forget how young he is. I think there's a grace and an elegance about the way they play and the way that he plays in particular. I think maybe he's a player who doesn't take as many chances as he should. Maybe he's a player that needs what the Spanish always describe as, Fang, that ability to bite, to really make it count. But they're a lovely club in many ways.
Grant Wahl:
And then Atlético, a team that really impressed me down the stretch last season, because I thought they were not going to win.
Sid Lowe:
Nah, me too. Me too.
Grant Wahl:
And they just found a way, which I guess is sort of Diego Simeone's way. But what you're seeing so far this season, anything different about this team?
Sid Lowe:
Yeah, I think so. I think in a way, and bear with me while I say something stupid, I think in a way we are seeing the fact that they've become victims of being a better team in part. And I think you see the arrival of two players in particular, obviously Rodrigo De Paul and and Antoine Griezmann. Who I think if you take this and a minute ago I said sometimes we overanalyze, well, I'm now going to overanalyze. And sometimes it's as simple as saying, are they as good?
Well, they've bought two players who are better and yet the team isn't better. And I think that's partly because now Simeone has a different type of management to apply, which is how do I find a place for these players? How do I find a way of making sure these guys that I've signed and I've signed them because I think they're good enough and I've signed them because I want them to improve the team I want.
I've signed them because I want this team to maybe play slightly differently, but I need to find that point at which it all works. And I think we've seen Griezmann this season play as a central striker, just off the central striker, on the right-hand side, on the left-hand side in a genuinely midfield role, not an attacking one, genuinely on the left hand side of the midfield three, not in the top of the pitch.
And that sort of sense that we don't quite know where the pieces fit yet. There's another element to this, which obviously is pertinent to Griezmann, which is Luis Suárez. And you watch Luis Suárez play, and quite often, to put it bluntly, you think, well he's not doing anything. And then of course he scores you the two goals that you really needed. And so then you think, well, so how do I manage this?
Sid Lowe:
How do I make this work right? And there's no doubt that Luis Suárez changed Atlético Madrid last year. Not just because the 21 goals he scored in La Liga but as Simeone explained, and Simeone is actually much more analytical than I think people give him credit for. That, when you have a player like Luis Suárez, you have to take the whole team closer to the area. There's no point in leaving him at the top of the pitch and going to him because he's just not going to run past anyone. And of course, if you take the whole team close to the area, you are changing the entire structure of the side. And last year I think we did see a different Atlético Madrid. And I think this year we're seeing another step again with that, but it's a process and I think it's a process that's not complete yet.
And so you're seeing a defensive fragility that we didn't see before. We're seeing a failure to start games well, and I wonder if that's a mental question, than we did before. So for example, correct me if I'm wrong. Because I haven't got the stats in front of me, but I believe Atlético Madrid have been trailing seven times this season, seven different games. Now a lot of those they've turned around. I was there at Getafe when they beat Getafe 2-1. And, and it was a similar thing. Luis Suárez scored two goals. They'd been 1-0 down at half time. And after the game, Mario Hermoso said, "Look, we've got really good players, but we can't always assume that we'll be able to turn it around and we can't keep starting games like this." And he implied, I thought very, very heavily, although he then denied it. When actually I asked him very directly having won the league, is there something missing in terms of the hunger? The sense of cause? The sense of, I don't know, a collective drive towards something? And he said "No", but his previous answer had been to say, we lack attitude, there's something not there, we've got to work harder, we've got to know that. But then in answering that question to me, he then said, "No, because when you win something, what you really want is to do it again. But we've got to know that to do that again, it starts with the work now". And I thought there was a very heavy hint then that maybe there's a little bit of decompression post winning the title.
Grant Wahl:
I do love it in journalism. Sometimes when you ask a question and you get a response and then you essentially ask the same question again in a slightly different way. Yeah. And they'll basically give you an answer that is the opposite of what they said to the previous question. You just keep asking the questions.
Sid Lowe:
I think sometimes what happens with that is that, and I suspect that this is one of those examples. That they give an answer, and the next question is the journalist making an interpretation of that answer and asking again through that perspective and then perhaps the player then realizes, ah, what I've said leads to conclusion that either I don't think, or I didn't quite want to say because I can see how this can be problematic. So then there's a sort of a process of rowing back slightly from the answer. Even if the actual content of it remains basically the same.
Grant Wahl:
I call that the look on a phase of an interviewee when you can tell they're imagining a headline.
Sid Lowe:
Yes, exactly. Like I say, hang on, this in black and white looks really quite problematic. Yeah.
Grant Wahl:
So I do want to get into your story in coming to Spain in the first place. How did that come about?
Sid Lowe:
Well, I have a not particularly normal process, I think, or not a normal journey into sports journalism. In that, it wasn't something I necessarily pursued. Albeit, it was always an idea that was there and in fact, I remember when I was, I don't know how old, I would be 18 maybe 19. My sister gave me a book that was a collection of sports journalism, writing on sport. And it was a collection of journalistic pieces. And because it was my birthday present, she'd signed it. And it said something like "Let's face it, we all know this is what you're going to do really". Cause at that point I was, I was doing post-graduate study into history. "So let's face it, what're you pissing around with history for, we all know it's going to be. It's football that would really do it for you".
Anyway, my journey into Spain was doing post-graduate research into Spanish political history, writing a PhD on Spanish political history, which is what brought me here to Madrid in 2001. I'd already lived a year in Spain in Oviedo in '96-'97, the typical third year of the university language degree, because my degree was Spanish language and history. And so I was here studying for a PhD, preparing for a PhD, but already writing some Spanish football basically through chance because I just happened to be someone who could do Spanish football at a time when the Guardian were opening up to international football.
So we had James Richardson doing Italy, we had Raphael Honigstein doing Germany. Apologies for this, but I can't remember who was doing France for us at the time, and they needed someone to do Spain, and Sean Ingle who was working for the Guardian, who is very much the man responsible basically for everything now in my life, as a result of this. Sean said, "We need someone to do Spain".
Sean knows me, because we're mates from university, I'd written for the university paper a few times, Sean was editor of the university paper. We were in the same football team. And that was a football team that involved after the game at least one member of the team always had to write a match report. So he knew I could write, albeit those match reports were normally tongue in cheek and he said "Look, we haven't got anyone. Do you want to do a test run? Do you want to do a few weeks of columns? See how it goes?" And that was 21 years ago.
Grant Wahl:
Wow. Okay. And so...
Sid Lowe:
So it's totally chance. I mean, as to say there was no, well, not totally chance in a lot of the building blocks were there. But it wasn't something I was kind of desperately pursuing.
Grant Wahl:
Well I know you published your thesis eventually.
Sid Lowe:
Yes.
Grant Wahl:
And, I had known about that part of your history and I was like, holy smokes, this guy is like a legit academic. Was there a specific moment when you said I am going to be a sports writer? I am not going to be an academic?
Sid Lowe:
I think there sort of is and there sort of isn't. So I'm in Spain in that first year, doing both, doing the research and doing the Spanish football column and going to games and doing the occasional interview and basically effectively being both things. And with time, the balance of my time is tilting more towards the journalism and away from the academia, even though I'm doing it. So much so that, but then this is probably true of every PhD candidate that has ever been. The PhD is later and later and later and it's just not happening. And at one point, I get a call from the university basically saying, where's this PhD you're supposed to be writing because at the end of that first year, I decide, well, I don't need to go back.
I could just as well do this in Spain. And they accept that because it makes no real difference. All the archives, all the material, all the libraries are here. But the balance tilts. Eventually I basically have a six month period say, you've got to write this now. Or you're not getting your PhD. And at that point I'd gone far enough down the journalism route that I was close to just saying, I'm not going to bother, but I decided I invested enough time in this that I wanted to finish it if only for my own satisfaction. And so the balance was tilting for a while, but then the thing that really goes, boom, it's gone, of course, is the arrival of David Beckham. And as you know, because you were sort of around Madrid a bit at the time that was in media terms just gigantic.
And for me it wasn't just gigantic in terms of the volume, although of course that was the fundamental thing. For me, what really made David Beckham's arrival here significant was that it was a lesson. I was suddenly put on this kind of accelerated course of how to be a journalist. Now I’d been writing stuff and I can write already. So I'd like to think I can write. And I was talking to people, and I was occasionally doing things for magazines and I was doing this Guardian column and so on and doing the occasional interview, but Beckham coming meant, okay, now you learn how to actually do this in terms of the daily grind, in terms of the turning things around, in terms of things like management of a mixed zone, management of quotes, management of how you hold this to wait for that day and so on.
And of course, because what happens is Beckham arrives and with Beckham, lots of journalists arrive too. And so you get a guy from basically all of the British papers. So I'm one of those, I'm already here. So the Guardian who I'm already working for and the Telegraph at the time as well say "Right, well, can you cover Beckham for us?" And so I'm now doing the daily news round, but I've also got the guy from the Mail turns up the guy from the Sun and from the Mirror and from the Times, and they all turn up from an English perspective. And I learned from them, I mean genuinely it's an apprenticeship and I've said this lots and lots of times in particular to Simon Cass who was with the Mail at the time to Eric Beauchamp who was with the Sun at the time.
But yeah, they were my teachers. Because, I wasn't really a journalist and I certainly wasn't trained as a journalist. And so that was the moment that this is definitive now. And of course I've been incredibly lucky along this route. Beause you get Beckham to turn up. Then of course you get Barcelona winning. You've got Real Madrid winning European Cup just before Beckham turns up, then you get Beckham turning up. The whole Galácticos project with everything that means that people are interested in Spanish football. Even if the project itself kind of failed towards the end, then you get Barcelona to become the best team in Europe. Then you get Spain win the European championships. Then you get Spain win the World Cup. Then you get Ronaldo then you get Messi and you get this, it felt like this is kind of unstoppable tidal wave over the last 15 years, it just keeps getting bigger.
And there's no way this goes back now. And this brings us, I suppose, a bit to your question at the very start of this. This now feels to me like the first time in this process for me in this probably 13-14 year process, because obviously the first 2 or 3 years are slightly different where that tidal wave is receding now. And maybe not entirely because I don't think it ever will be entirely. Because of course the ground that you've gained doesn't go away. But that's fundamentally kind of how it happened. A series of being basically incredibly fortunate. I mean, I am fundamentally a lucky man.
Grant Wahl:
It's an amazing story. And yours is an amazing story. I want to wrap up with a very, very serious question here about your mug collection. So how many do you have? Is it Spanish clubs? And also too, just so you know, the U.S. men's coach [Gregg Berhalter] recently revealed that he collects Starbucks mugs from every location he goes to, including when he said this in Panama last month. And I did know that people collected Starbucks mugs or that they even existed. But now I'm paying attention to that. Tell me about your mug collection.
Sid Lowe:
Well, I'd Like to think that if he is traveling around the world, surely it would be much better rather than Starbucks ones to collect the mugs of the grounds that he's at. If the U.S. men's national team goes and plays at Panama, buy a Panama national team mug, which by the way, I have one on my desk right here. I should start with I don't know if this is the excuse or the apology. I think it's possibly an excuse. It's my dad's mug collection, he's the one that's really sad, not me. But he's been collecting mugs for... I honestly don't know how long, but of course what happens is that the whole family, because it's me, two older brothers and a younger sister. We are now kind of embarked upon this mug quest with him and our friends are embarked upon this mug quest with him.
So for example, I've got one here, which is, I think this is a Mexican or a Chilean team, which Pete Jensen, a friend of mine, bought back for me. And mates now know that if they go to a ground to bring a mug for my dad. And my dad has now this policy, where if people give him a mug, he gives them a mug. So for many years, my dad's a Crewe Alexandra fan. If you gave him a mug, he would give you a Crewe Alexandra mug. Now for obvious reasons after the horrific stories that came out of Crewe, my dad has effectively renounced Crewe Alexandra now. So he now gives people either a Real Oviedo mug, which is my team or a West Didsbury mug, which is a team near Manchester, an amateur team near Manchester because of a friend of mine who provided him with a whole load of mugs from there.
And he must have, he's got all four divisions in England, every club, and most of the teams in the Conference and lots of amateur teams. All the teams in Scotland, I think except for four or five. We were in Edinburgh this summer. And there were a few detours to towns to get mugs that we're missing from the collection. He says it's cheating, you're not allowed to buy it online. You've got to be there. You've got to go. It's got to be done properly. Loads of Spanish clubs, I don't think there's anyone in the first division we haven't got, I think in the second division, there's probably only two or three that we haven't got. There's lots of second division B and third division teams that are there. The total number must be best part of 400, 400 or so. 450-500 mugs.
You're not allowed to drink out of them. And there was a tragic occurrence about seven or eight years ago, which my dad still refers to as the great wall shelf crash. In which, as its name suggests, a shelf came down. And quite a lot of those mugs got ruined, obviously it's like everything, this is a kind of an expression of journalism and actually life itself. As my dad always says "It's not sort of the mug that matters. It's the story behind it." So the more stupid the story, the better the mug. So for example, the one I'm going to show you now, this is an Algeciras mug. This is the most recent one that I got for him, which I haven't managed to provide for him in England yet.
Grant Wahl:
Nice.
Sid Lowe:
And, and so Algeciras play in what, Spain's third tier and I think, well, I'm going to get a mug. Cause we were there in the summer. We went to see them play against Andorra. And I go into the club shop, which is really at this level, as most club shops, it's just a little office. It's the office, the ticket room. There's a mug there. I say, can I buy a mug? And "we don't have any" and I can see one, but it's full of cash. And I say to the lady, I say, "Look, there's one. There, can I have it?" And she says "we are using that for the ticket money taking" you know, it's stuffed with cash. She said "I'm afraid I can't give you that one." Anyway, after the game, we go in to see the Algeciras manager who I know because he used to play for Real Oviedo, and we were in there. And this guy comes in, who works at the club.
And he sees my son and he gives my son an Algeciras water bottle he says, as there weren't any mugs, here's a water bottle. And gives it to my son and with a little Algeciras ogo on it. And I said, "Well, funny enough, there actually was one. It was in the office, but you know, unfortunately it wasn't for sale." And he says, "It was in what office?" I said "Well, the ticket office" he goes, "Hang on a minute", goes off with a set of keys, comes back, brings me the mug. The mugs got a massive chip out of it, as you can see. And he says, "When we get some new ones, I'll send you a new one. So you don't have to have this rubbish chipped one."
Sid Lowe:
I said, "No, no, no, no. Don't do that. The chip makes it so much the better" It's all about the story. As my brother says, my eldest brother, who must be responsible for best part of 10 or maybe 15 of my dad's Scottish mugs. And he says, When you go to small clubs, the immense majority of the mugs he's got have come from offices or boardrooms, rather than club shops. Someone somewhere has said, "Oh yeah, I think I've seen some somewhere." And that's the fun of it really. As like everything in life, it's the journey rather than the destination that really matters .
Grant Wahl:
Words to live by from Sid Lowe, who writes for the Guardian, you see him on ESPN. He's also the co-host of the Spanish Football Podcast. Sid, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Sid Lowe:
Thanks for having me.