The Interview: Pablo Mastroeni
Real Salt Lake's Interim Head Coach on His Team's Amazing Playoff Run, Deciding to Continue His Coaching Career and Mysticism and Existentialism in Soccer and Life
Grant Wahl:
Our guest now is the interim head coach of MLS's best playoff story in years. Pablo Mastroeni has Real Salt Lake one step from the MLS Cup final ahead of its game at Portland on Saturday at 6:30 pm Eastern on FS1 and Fox Deportes. Pablo, It's great to see you. Congratulations on everything you've been doing.
Pablo Mastroeni:
Thanks Grant. I'm really enjoying it. It's been a lot of fun and hoping that we can continue on.
Grant Wahl:
I mean, there's so much that makes your team a great story. You've had all the uncertainty of not having a team owner, you've had head coach Freddy Juárez leave mid-season for an assistant’s job in Seattle, a team you ended up eliminating in the playoffs. You needed a last-second goal in the regular season finale just to get into the playoffs. And now after advancing past Seattle and Kansas City on the road, you've got Portland being the last barrier to reaching the MLS Cup final. What has stood out the most to you about this remarkable run that you've had?
Pablo Mastroeni:
Really, I think it's been the players, the culture. We've really doubled down on being a great group, working hard for each other, almost a brotherhood, and believing in ourselves when very few people did. And that's kind of been our war cry from the beginning. We've understood that at times things didn't go our way. Yet we found ways through our resiliency to overcome and persevere. And I think if you do that enough, that just becomes second nature, you're not thinking about, "Are we still in this game?" You know you're in this game because you've done it many times before. So it's been a fantastic vibe within the group that I think has really propelled us to this point.
“When I found out [Freddy Juárez] was leaving, all of a sudden I started thinking about, "Man, I might have to get on the sidelines again." And the reason why I came was to be an assistant coach, to backfill the void that was there for me going from playing to managing. And so I couldn't have been happier in my role. When he told me, my head started just spinning, and then quickly realizing that I’ve got to quit feeling sorry for myself, because life doesn't happen as you want it to, you have to react the right way.” — Pablo Mastroeni
Grant Wahl:
So looking ahead to Portland this weekend, are you planning on having Albert Rusnak available? And how are you planning to approach this game: potentially more like you did against Kansas City or more like against Seattle?
Pablo Mastroeni:
Well, I think Albert will get tested this morning and he should be available with us tomorrow. And I think a lot of that has to do with where he’s at from a physical perspective. Obviously this COVID affects people in different ways, but he's been doing a little bit of work at home, and we'll see where he's at. And again, if he's in a good way, Albert's been an integral part of this group both on and off the field, and his leadership and his play will definitely be needed if he's available to beat a very good Portland team. And that has a lot to do with the way I think we'll kind of shape up for this game. But I think against Seattle we didn't necessarily sit out to bunker in, I think their ability to build momentum through the course of the game outpowered our ability to beat them in transition and back them up.
Whereas in Kansas City, I think we did a really good job of imposing ourselves on the game and really minimizing their transition moments to keep them kind of pinned in and dictate the game. So Portland we know, we've seen it three times where we've been just beaten on the counter. And we played some expansive stuff. It was fun to watch. And again, we won the stats game against them, but we lost the scoreline against them every time. So for us, it's going to be, I expect another organized, disciplined performance, and we'll start tomorrow on looking at how we want to break them down and figure out our best opportunities with the players available to find a way to hopefully get a great result.
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Grant Wahl:
Is winning the stats game overrated? I mean, you happened against Seattle to have an all-timer, right? With zero shots on goa andl you advance. Is it overrated?
Pablo Mastroeni:
What I like to say is, for me what matters the most are the moments in real time during the game. And so what I talk about after performances, win or loss, were the critical moments, and they appear all the time throughout the course of the game. They're moments, so they're essentially depending on how you want to break it down, there's a ton of them. And how can these moments affect momentum to put us in a great position to either score a goal or deny a goal? And so that's what I talk about is, in real time finding solutions and solving problems that are going to after the fact, you have the stats that basically portray what the overall game looked like, but those stats can't help you win or lose a game.
They just tell the story. What helps you win and lose games are the moments that you overcome and do well with. Because again, everything's in real time. So are they overrated? It depends on if you think that those stats would've helped you win a game, but really what helps you win a game is blocking that cross or putting your body in front of that shot or denying central penetration, or crossing that ball to the top of the 18 instead of across the six. Those are what we talk about. Because those are the moments that you can affect. And at the end of the day, those are the ones that dictate the scoreline.
“I jumped into this trench and they threw me a spade … I was working from nine to five, and I was coming home every day just exhausted and tired …And I remember after like week three, I had this epiphany. My brother calls me, and he said, ‘Pablo, you excited about work today?’ And I said, ‘No, I just thought of something. I'm in pain going home every day, and I'm literally working in these trenches and I'm getting paid commensurate to my level of experience in this profession. If I want to get back to work, I'm considered a professional in this other field.’ And it was in that moment that I decided to get back into coaching.” — Pablo Mastroeni
Grant Wahl:
So what was your very first reaction, if we go back in time a little bit to when you learned that Freddy Juárez was leaving the team mid-season for Seattle?
Pablo Mastroeni:
I was shocked, to be fair. We were in a good way. We were I think seventh or eighth in the West. Freddy was I felt like doing a fantastic job with the group. And we'd built a really good group of players that believed in the project and believed in the direction. And then when I found out he was leaving, all of a sudden I started thinking about, "Man, I might have to get on the sidelines again." And the reason why I came was to be assistant coach, to backfill the void that was there for me going from playing to managing. And so I couldn't have been happier in my role. And so when he told me, my head started just spinning, and then quickly realizing that I’ve got to quit feeling sorry for myself, because life doesn't happen as you want it to, you have to react the right way. So quickly started putting on my managing cap again and really reaching back on my experiences in Colorado and thinking about the things that I felt I did well and those things that I felt I didn't do so well because of a lack of experience, and really drawn on that experience to kind of lead me forward and help lead this group.
Grant Wahl:
It's really interesting that you say that to me, because it's this old adage that every assistant coach wants to be a head coach. But what you're saying to me here appears to be something different, that when you came to Salt Lake, you didn't have the ambition to become a head coach again as quickly as possible. Is that accurate?
Pablo Mastroeni:
Yeah, that's accurate. No, I think in order to be a great coach, a great manager, I think you have to understand what the roles and responsibilities of an assistant coach is, and how you feel as an assistant coach, given the different coaches you work under. Because again, sometimes if I just go on what I knew as a manager, that's all I know, I've never had the experience of being an assistant and dealing with what feels like to maybe have too much responsibility, not enough responsibility, areas of the game that I'm like, man, I'm deficient in this area.
How can I reach these players? Because the manager's busy with media and everything else he's got, how can I take this individual player and really help him work on an aspect of his game that could help the group? And so there's so many positives of being an assistant coach. And I think the allure is the limelight, but in my case, going from playing to coaching, I was learning on the fly and that limelight is scary when things aren't going your way and you don't have enough experience. And so I was, like I said, I was really enjoying my role here. And I was shocked when Freddy told me he was leaving.
Grant Wahl:
It's interesting because you've been a head coach with Colorado. You took a Colorado team to the final four of the MLS playoffs, where you are right now with Salt Lake. I remember when Jesse Marsch had his first head coaching experience, which was with Montreal in MLS, and it was up and down. There were some good moments, some not great moments, he left after a year. And he took some time off from coaching for a little while after that. And he even took his family on an around the world trip, which was really interesting, I thought. And then he restarted his coaching career. And now he's coaching at Leipzig in Germany. Like, what did you do? Because didn't you have a couple of years off from coaching after your Colorado experience? What were you doing during that time?
Pablo Mastroeni:
Yeah, so, great question. I spent the first six months blaming everyone at Colorado for my dismissal. And then I took the next six months of owning a hundred percent of my dismissal in Colorado and accepting the fact that unfortunately experience hurts. And this is a part of your development as a coach. And when you accept a hundred percent at that moment, you can start to affect change. And so then at that point, I started thinking about everything from my management style to the way I expressed my tactics to the culture of the group and everything in between. And I literally spent a year filling out journals, watching games, studying games on TV, and just went all in on my own studies of the game and myself and all the different ways I could get better as a coach.
And so I did that. My biggest problem was my family was in Colorado. My kids were getting into high school age. And I realized that if I want to continue coaching, I'm going to have to leave the house. And so I spent another six months trying to figure out how I could coach a professional team in Colorado without leaving Colorado. And the truth is that there are no options. So then I knew that being in the house all day wasn't good for me at this point. And I have a buddy that owns a water company, and he says, ‘Pablo, listen, you've been telling me you're free. Would you like to come and help me? I have a project that's going to take about three and a half weeks.’ So I said, ‘Yeah, I need to get working. And I need to get out of the house. I need to start feeling alive again. And I'm, let's do it.’ So I showed up at the shop and got the rubber boots and the truck. And I had no idea what I was in for, but we were literally laying a thousand feet of a water main.
Grant Wahl:
Wow.
Pablo Mastroeni:
And so I jumped into this trench and they threw me a spade. And I was basically making sure that we weren't cutting into any electric, any gas or any other water lines hooked up to the houses. And I was working from nine to five, and I was coming home every day just exhausted and tired. And he was paying me, he's like, I know I'm going to pay you really well. He was paying me like 18 bucks an hour. And I remember after like week three, I had this epiphany, my brother calls me.
And he always called me when I was going into work with the work truck. And he said, ‘Pablo, you excited about work today?’ And I said, ‘No, I just thought of something. I'm like in pain going home every day. And I'm literally working in these trenches and I'm getting paid commensurate to my level of experience in this profession. If I want to get back to work, I'm considered a professional in this other field.’ And it was in that moment that I decided to get back into coaching. And literally a week later I got a call from MLS, and they wanted me to come into the studios and help with some playoff stuff. And then a week after that, Tab [Ramos] called me and asked me if I wanted to join him in Houston.
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Grant Wahl:
Wow. Thank you for sharing that. That's incredible. And I think there's some cool life lessons there for people. And you became an assistant in Houston. You came to Salt Lake, which is an interesting one because you were so associated as a player and then as a coach with the Colorado Rapids, and that's the archrival of Real Salt Lake. Did you have to win over any skeptical fans at Salt Lake who were like, we used to hate this guy?
Pablo Mastroeni:
I think initially there were some reservations on the fans’ part, but I think when you meet people and you get to know them, my loyalty is to Salt Lake because they believe in me and they brought me here. Right? And so like, I'm going to do everything and take the wealth of experience I gained throughout my whole career and apply it here and be the best servant of the club that I can possibly be. And now just showing that I'm with you guys, like this is how pro sports work. And, so initially, maybe it was me too that was a little bit nervous because I remember coming to these games out here and it was nuts. It was mayhem from the kickoff to the end of the game. And then after the game there's some situations as well. So I think it was more my own insecurities about coming here than the fans, but they received me pretty well.
Grant Wahl:
Interesting. And you’re the interim coach, you've taken Salt Lake to the Western Conference final, you've got a chance to win this league at this point. Do you feel you've done enough to be the head coach of this team next season and take the interim tag off?
Pablo Mastroeni:
Grant, I don't think that's for me to say. What I said to Elliot [Fall, the Salt Lake GM] when we met when Freddy left, he asked if I wanted to be interviewed for the job. And I said, well, to be honest in this moment, my biggest concern is to make sure that I organize and galvanize this group in a way to continue putting us in a spot to compete for the playoffs. And I said you're going to get a real time look at the culture I'm trying to build, the spirit of the group, the style of play. If you like all that, and we get great results, I'd love to interview for the job. And so this whole thing wasn't about me. It's not about my striving to be a head coach. It's about doing my job, which is now leading this group, and doing the best job I can. And if it lands me in this position, I'm grateful for it. And if not, such is life, you keep going on. But the experiences that I've gained in the four months, I wouldn't trade for any position.
Grant Wahl:
You've had some wonderful quotes over the years, talking about soccer at times even in mystical and existential terms, do you still view the sport and even the planet in that way?
Pablo Mastroeni:
I do. I think the fact that I'm sitting here talking to you as the interim head coach of Salt Lake, when two years ago I'm sitting in a trench getting covered with mud. I mean, I think it is a mystical place, and I think there's a lot of things that happen in our lives that have no explanation. And I think when you surrender to the greater forces that be, it puts you on a ride that you couldn't ever believe was possible if you tried to control everything. And so my experience on this planet has been remarkable. And although I had visions of playing soccer, playing in a World Cup, my ability to just let things happen as they do while giving the best effort I can has led me to some amazing places. I've met amazing people and built some amazing relationships because of that.
Grant Wahl:
It is pretty incredible now that you and I are both older, I can remember the first time I covered you at the 2002 World Cup. I think it was, when you surprised everyone by starting the opening game for the U.S. against Portugal, and the U.S. wins the freaking game. And so when you talk about life experiences like that, soccer's taken you to some pretty incredible places, it seems like.
Pablo Mastroeni:
It has. And even how I got on that team, Grant, I remember, quick story. I was invited to go play my second national team game with the U.S. in Korea, December of 2001. And I was playing right back, because Bruce [Arena, the coach] saw me as a right back. And I got torched by this left-winger who was playing in Holland at the time. I don't remember his name, but he just stole my lunch and ate it right in front of me. It was terrible. And Bruce pulls me out in the 60th minute and writes me a note and gives it to me as we're walking off the plane. And I still have this note. And it's a great motivational note for me, as far as life is concerned. And he says, listen, Pablo, thank you for the effort. Obviously you're still a little bit inexperienced, and there's a lot of things that you need to work on. But 2006 is around the corner. And I think you could be a great teammate for 2006. And so I was devastated, but I went home and I kept working.
I get a call January 3, and he rings me and he says, are you fit? And I said yes. He said, [Gregg] Berhalter just went out with a knee injury. Can you join the camp for Gold Cup? And I said, sure. He goes, but by the way, you're playing center back. And I said, fantastic. So I went into camp, had a great camp. We win the first game against South Korea. And he goes, Pablo, you're going to go at center back for the next game. We end up shutting every team out and winning the Gold Cup.
And then he invites me to another friendly. And then I get invited to another friendly. And now it's decision time for the World Cup squad. And I get a call from Bruce, and he says, I'm bringing you to Korea. And so you can imagine this universe thing, how it all happens, how people get injured and I said, great. And he goes, you know why I'm bringing you? I said, yeah, I've been playing great as of late. He says, no. He says, you're a great teammate. You work your tail off, and you help make the guys in front of you better. And that's what I expect from you in Korea.
Grant Wahl:
Wow. Yeah, that World Cup itself for the U.S. is just the high water mark still for modern U.S. men's soccer getting into the quarterfinals, so many great moments from that. And it's kind of cool to see you and Bruce still alive coaching playoff teams, at least as of now, we're recording this on Tuesday. Bruce has a game on Tuesday night. Just a couple more real quick ones here. One of them is you have a 20-year-old goalkeeper David Ochoa who has become sort of MLS's new favorite villain that opposing teams love to hate, seems to be embracing it. I personally think MLS needs more villains. It's fun to follow. What's your sense of some of the things Ochoa has said publicly in the last few weeks?
Pablo Mastroeni:
To be fair, I haven't read a lot of them. I think that David operates from his best self when he is playing the villain, and he plays with confidence and in doing so brings a lot of confidence to the back line and the guys in front of him, you know? And so for me, again, I think players have to express themselves in a way that brings out the best. And he's found a role that has not only been talked about throughout the league, but that has really inspired his own play and inspired the guys in front of him.
Grant Wahl:
Lastly, people are still mispronouncing your last name, Pablo, and we're about two and a half decades into this with your career. Could you just say your full name for everyone so they understand what it is?
Pablo Mastroeni:
[Laughs] Yeah. It's Pablo Mastroeni [mas-tro-AY-nee]
Grant Wahl:
It's just like it looks, y'all [laughs], especially if you are a Spanish speaker, but you really don't need to be a Spanish speaker. Pablo, congratulations on everything you're doing. Your team plays against the Portland Timbers in the Western Conference final this Saturday, 6:30 pm Eastern on FS1 and Fox Deportes. Great to see you, thanks for coming on the show.
Pablo Mastroeni:
Thanks for having me, Grant. Great catching up.