The Interview: MLS Commissioner Don Garber
My Annual 1-on-1 with the Commish Never Disappoints, and That's True Again This Year
One of my favorite annual one-on-one interviews that I do is during the week of the MLS Cup final with MLS commissioner Don Garber. It’s been happening for a while now, and he never fails to produce some intriguing insights and news nuggets. He’s also willing to take some tough questions, which I appreciate. The audio podcast of our interview is free to listen to, but the written version here is a perk for paid subscribers.
Here are some of the topics we get into detail on below.
• Which of New England, New York City and Inter Miami is closest to getting a soccer stadium built.
• More details on the negotiations for MLS’s next broadcast rights package(s), which he expects to be announced in the first quarter of 2022.
• Whether he thinks the expanded Leagues Cup with Liga MX will inevitably lead to a full merger of MLS and Liga MX.
• How it’s possible that some MLS teams could be valued by sports business publications at $800 million while Newcastle United sold recently for half that price.
• Whether he thinks the current European soccer business model is sustainable in the wake of the Super League implosion—and whether MLS could eventually take advantage of the European model falling apart.
• Why MLS just made its equivalent of the Rooney Rule a lot stronger.
• Whether MLS would consider staging future MLS Cup finals on Thanksgiving day after the big TV audience it received on Thanksgiving this year.
• Whether MLS might reconsider its playoff format given that none of the six No. 1 seeds have advanced to the MLS Cup final in the first three years of the current format.
• How long Garber’s current contract runs, and how long he’d like to continue as commissioner.
• One thing he’d tell 1999 rookie commissioner Don Garber based on what he knows now.
Grant Wahl:
The MLS Cup final between Portland and New York City is Saturday at 3 pm Eastern on ABC and Unimas, and our guest now is MLS commissioner Don Garber. Don, it's great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Don Garber:
It's great to see you as well, Grant. I can see you, because we're doing the Zoom, but they're going to just hear us.
Grant Wahl:
Audio only on the podcast front for now. But we've been doing, you and I, these annual MLS Cup interviews for I think 22 years now, and I always look forward to them. If you could tell 1999 rookie MLS commissioner Don Garber one thing that would've been good for him to know, what would it be?
Don Garber:
What were you thinking? [laughs] So Grant, I remember when I left the NFL, and I had an exit interview with a bunch of folks from their commissioner to a guy that I was very friendly with, a guy named Steve Sabol, who was one of the great sports filmmakers in our lifetime [with NFL Films], and that's what Steve said to me when I told him I was leaving to go run this fledgling soccer league. So I would say to the young Don, man, what were you thinking at that time? Like Steve Sabol said to me.
But ultimately, Grant, I think as I look back, and I'm not done, so I'm not ready to entirely look back, I think I probably would've said you have no idea what the next 20 years are going to look like with the massive opportunity that exists in our country and now in Canada to support the game of professional soccer. That fans would ultimately take to the supporter movement the way they have, that owners would make the commitments that they have made, that they and their municipal partners would spend billions and billions on stadiums and so many other things. I used to say in the beginning, this is the hardest job in pro sports. I look back now and say we've probably achieved more than any other league has achieved in their first 25 years. And that's pretty cool to be a part of that and to really be driving the bus.
Grant Wahl:
Which of these three teams is closest to a new stadium: New England, New York City or Inter Miami?
Don Garber:
Inter Miami.
Grant Wahl:
Why?
Grant Wahl:
It's December 2021 right now, what are you most excited about with MLS at this moment?
Don Garber:
Well, I'm really excited about where the sport is and the role that MLS has played in driving the popularity of the sport. And its competitiveness globally, the success in developing players. This year I think sort of told the story of MLS at its best, working against all odds and still getting through the pandemic. This is year two of the pandemic. When we started the year, we had no idea we'd be playing games, let alone most of our games in front of fans.
“The structure of these [European] leagues, top five, without spending controls, creates the opportunity for crisis, things you can't control, financial crisis or a pandemic, that can just create enormous instability, because the underpinnings of the economics of those leagues don't have the same checks and balances and same controls that have driven the success of the North American major sports leagues. That's why we don't have teams going out of business ever. You have a continued increase in team values. You have massive, massive investments in infrastructure, which you do not see in the top five [European] leagues because of lack of potential sustainability. And you have the credit market and other financial institutions that see long-term appreciation, therefore they're willing to invest [in MLS]. And that has not necessarily taken place in the top five leagues.” — Don Garber
We had momentum going into this year, even coming out of the challenges of '20 and what COVID presented us with. A new team in Austin that just is the best of what MLS could be, just absolutely spectacular. Three new stadiums representing I think the best of what MLS has been able to do from a facility perspective. We announced a new youth league, we announced a new second division with MLS Next Pro just the other day. We today announced a very ambitious diversity hiring initiative that I'm very proud of. So man, it just seems as if even after all these years, so much is happening year after year. And I still think our best days are ahead.
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Grant Wahl:
MLS's current eight-year broadcast rights deal ends one year from now, you said on your state to the league call that you expected the new rights deal to get done in the first quarter of 2022. What sort of meetings have you already had on that? How many interested parties are there? And do you think there will end up being more than one English-language partner in the new deal?
Don Garber:
Good questions, and I'll get to each one of them. We have, and you expect me to say this, but I believe it in my heart. ESPN's been a partner and ABC has been a partner of Major League Soccer since our founding in 1996. They were the driver of the creation of Soccer United Marketing when we, together with them, bought the World Cup rights and U.S. Soccer’s rights. So we have a great relationship. Fox has been a partner with us for many years. I think they do an incredible job. I'm so pleased to see what Alexi [Lalas] and what Stu [Holden] and what John Strong have been doing. I mean, they love the league and they treat it with respect and admiration. And Univision has been with us really from the beginning as well.
So starting with the incumbents, I mean, we've got great partners, I'd love to see them continue. What's unique, and we describe it as the old package was apples, the new packages aren’t oranges, they're walnuts. And I say that because it's such a different package we're taking to the market: All of our local games, all of our national games, our streaming rights, our linear rights, call it our broadcast rights, if you will, from terrestrial and cable, our data rights, our sports betting rights, our international rights, out of market, all one giant bundle. And bundle is not a coincidence. It is a mini-bundle of unique rights that can be, I think, transformational in terms of how we engage with consumers and fans and ultimately create value for ourselves and our partners.
So I see we're out in the market, we've got lots of interesting parties. Everybody who you would expect is talking with us, not just our incumbents, but new folks that have been engaged in buying soccer rights and all of the big streaming services who are intrigued by the fact that you actually could offer a global package of one league's rights with one phone call. You don't have to go market by market and gate it and buy those rights with tenders like the other soccer leagues have to do around the world. One streaming service could broadcast games and even time shift them and directly sell them to consumers or offer them to consumers with one shopping point. So I’m very excited about it.
Grant Wahl:
You mentioned this, the league made an announcement this week that you have updated the league-wide diversity hiring policy, with a key change requiring two candidates for sporting positions to be considered in the finalist stage, and one must be Black. What went into this change, and what do you expect to come out of it?
Don Garber:
Well, what went into the change was the realization that our technical staffs were not representing the diversity of our country and the diversity of our player pool. And I mean, that was the basic premise that we were trying to address. And whether the previous rule, the so-called Rooney Rule that all leagues have, was effective in providing opportunities for underrepresented groups to not just interview but ultimately get jobs in our technical staffs.
We've made progress with [Wilfried] Nancy in Montreal and Ezra Hendrickson now in Chicago and obviously Robin Fraser, who's such a wonderful, wonderful and successful coach, but we'll have 27 teams, we have three Black coaches. We don't have enough coaches of color at the technical level. And I think we need to work harder to achieve that. In order to do that, you need to provide access, but you also need to have a pipeline of qualified candidates, and we're going to work both on the access point with the new policy and then have programs to drive the opportunities for those who right now are trying to figure out can professional soccer coaching or technical careers make sense for them.
Grant Wahl:
Which of these three teams is closest to a new stadium: New England, New York City or Inter Miami?
Don Garber:
Inter Miami.
Grant Wahl:
Why?
Don Garber:
Well, I think Inter Miami is making a lot of progress in the agreement that they're negotiating with the city of Miami. And that is a complicated process, as it is in New York and Boston. You've got a very well-developed city with expensive real estate, lots of growth, lots of opportunity, building big projects, 10, 15, 20 acres that are not office buildings or residences. It’s just difficult. But Jorge and José Mas have been working hard at it for years. Even before they had the team, MLS was working on a number of different opportunities, and they're getting close.
Grant Wahl:
On your state of the league call, you said you were not in favor of having World Cups every two years. Based on your knowledge of things at FIFA, and I know you're on committees there, what do you think are the chances of it actually happening?
Don Garber:
You know, that's not something, Grant, it's a fun question. It's not something I could sort of prognosticate on. I don't know what ultimately happens, whether it goes to vote or not, that's for others to decide. I think that the soccer-football playing world has spoken. The key confederations have come out against it. Many of the leagues have come out against it. A number of broadcast partners have come out against it, a number of political government groups have come out against it. Our group, the representatives of the leagues around the world, which is called the World Leagues Forum, has come out against it.
Not because we don't believe that FIFA shouldn't innovate, and if you don't innovate, you die in any world, any business, even your personal life. Soccer needs to do it, FIFA needs to do that too. And I admire Gianni Infantino for trying to come up with new ideas, I think he will be known for that. And I admire his energy and optimism on disrupting things. But whether you want to disrupt the most popular sporting event in the world by changing its very nature every four years, I'm not quite sure I and others like me think that's the right thing to disrupt, and we'll see how it plays out.
Grant Wahl:
I want you to help me with something here, more than one sports business publication has valued multiple MLS teams at $800 million each, and Newcastle United recently sold for half that to the Saudis. How can that be possible? And are some of these MLS team valuations justified by the actual current revenues coming into the league?
Don Garber:
Well, prices in an open market are justified by what people will pay, right? So it's not for me to determine whether those prices are justified, it's really those people who are bidding for these teams that are making that decision. And as it relates to Newcastle, I really can't comment on it. Grant, I have a very personal view that when you buy a team that's not one of the top, top teams in the Premier League, you don't know whether it's going to be in the Premier League or not in time. So what you're really buying is an opportunity that has no defined long term value because there are plenty of great teams in the Premier League that are no longer in the league. We have an owner that owns Swansea, who was in the league, and now it isn't.
And that has affected his desire to invest in a new building, for example, because there's just no guarantee as to what the revenues are going to be. Now, I understand that. I'm thinking about that as a guy running a league and not thinking about it as a fan, that's my job. So perhaps that's playing into it. It could be some of the things that you need to do in the middle of the pack in the Premier League or the bottom of the pack to be competitive, to make it into the UEFA Champions League, to be able to attract the kind of attention that you need to build a wonderful brand like Newcastle, like Alan Shearer, I mean, there's some great history there. But you probably have to spend a lot more and you may or may not see the benefit of that. And perhaps that's built into the pricing.
Grant Wahl:
So we saw the European Super League idea fall apart in just two days earlier this year, but a couple things that the Super League would have had were expected revenues for the teams involved and spending controls on the teams involved as well. Do you think the current business model at the top of European soccer is sustainable? And do you think it could eventually fall apart, and MLS could potentially take advantage of that?
Don Garber:
Well, that is a good question, Grant. And I always have so much fun chatting with you, and then you joke about how I go off the record so often, so the conversations end up being longer than what you could put in an article. Here [on a podcast] I can't do that. I've made a decision many years ago, after I got scolded by another major league sports commissioner when I took this job about a year or two in, and he reminded me to keep my powder dry and not talk about anybody else's league. And I took that advice, and I'm a pretty good listener [laughs]. So I've made a career out of not stepping on myself. I don't have any ego need to be the guy that speaks about professional soccer-football in ways where I'm certainly not an expert.
What I have observed over the last couple of years, particularly during the pandemic, is that the structure of these other leagues, top five, without spending controls, creates the opportunity for crisis, things you can't control, financial crisis or a pandemic, that can just create enormous instability, because the underpinnings of the economics of those leagues don't have the same checks and balances and same controls that have driven the success of the North American major sports leagues. That's why we don't have teams going out of business ever. You have continued increase in team values. You have massive, massive investments in infrastructure, which you do not see in the top five [European] leagues because of lack of potential sustainability.
And you have the credit market and other financial institutions that see long-term appreciation, therefore they're willing to invest. And that has not necessarily taken place in the top five leagues. I talk about it a lot when I speak internationally, Grant. I think many of these leagues look at Major League Soccer, we're fledgling, we're young, we're 25 years old. And I don't think that they believe on the field we can be as competitive as many of the top teams in those leagues. And maybe in time, we will be way more competitive than we are, I'd argue we’re more competitive than people give us credit for.
But what they do admire is our structure. The fact that we reached an agreement with our players on what we're going to spend. They know their long-term stability, they know they're going to get paid, they know they have healthcare, they know that we're going to deal with them with engagement programs when they join the league and when they're in the league and then when they ultimately leave and retire. There's just so many professional processes in place that ensures long-term stability. And the fan is the one who benefits the most by that.
So I'm not sure I know enough about what the long-term effect is on these leagues, where only one or two or three or four or five teams win everything. What I will say is I really believe in the MLS model, and investors really believe in the MLS model. And that's why teams, to your previous question, are valued the way they are, because there's stability and long-term exposure and vision for what the future will look like.
Grant Wahl:
I want to ask you about another structure, your playoff structure, just how it's set up. We have a situation where this new single-elimination playoff format came in three seasons ago. None of the six teams that were the number one seed, the best teams in their conference in the regular season, advanced to the final. And if you go back, even with the previous playoff structures, there's only two number one seeds that have advanced to the final since, I think 2010. Is that concerning?
Don Garber:
Well, I don't know that it's concerning per se. I mean, it's certainly creating a lot of debate, and it's creating a dynamic where we have to think about, do we have the right format going forward? Obviously things will change a bit during next year because of the fact that the World Cup's taking place ordinarily in the middle of our playoffs, so we'll have a different format. And I'm not sure that in the years to come with more teams, the actual structure of the format will remain the same. It could change.
And so I've always been a subscriber and push our group to think that what we've done today might work and might not work, but let's be sure we're not stuck on it for our own ego or other stubborn purposes, and be sure that we're smart enough and courageous enough to make changes. Let's look at it the way I look at it broadly at 30,000 feet. We had an unbelievably exciting, competitive playoffs this year. We had record television ratings, including the highest rating in the history of the league on Thanksgiving day, almost two million people watching a game up against a big-time NFL game. And you had thrilling games. I don't know, four or five of them [were decided] in the 90th minute. And I was at a lot of those games, man, they were just unbelievable.
So whether or not the number one seed makes it or not is probably less of a concern to the schedule-makers. What the schedule-makers are thinking about is did we engage our fans and have a very, very exciting playoff format that drove ratings, that drove interest and ultimately was very competitive and fun and exciting? I think the answer to that would've been yes.
Grant Wahl:
As a follow up, could we see in the future the MLS Cup final being on Thanksgiving day, knowing that next year that won't be the case because the World Cup will be happening, but beyond that, is that a possibility?
Don Garber:
It's a good question, Grant. I'd like to say this. I'd love to see us having a Thanksgiving game every year, whether or not that's the MLS Cup, we’ll have to think about. As you know, we're starting the MLS season earlier than any other time in the history of our league in the end of February. We're going to have more teams. It's going to be more crowded. We're going to have so many other things going on. 2023, we'll have the Leagues Cup that'll take place in the summer. So I'm not sure we'll be ending earlier going forward. So I don't know that we'd ever have an MLS Cup on Thanksgiving, it'll be a good idea though.
Grant Wahl:
Couple more questions for Don Garber, really appreciate the time during a busy week. When you have new owners buying into MLS at such high price points—$400 million for Houston, Orlando and Chicago, $325 million expansion fee for Charlotte—it makes sense that those owners would want to spend a lot of money on players. How much is that desire coming into conflict with some of the league's original owners who may not want to spend as much on players?
Don Garber:
Well, the league’s original owners now are few and far between, we are soon going to have 30 teams, our 28th team joins next year. So there are only three or four original owners around, right? So I'm not quite sure anybody is thinking about what do the original guys think about? Because it's funny, Grant, Portland's sitting around the table. I mean, they're not considered new, they're certainly not considered original, right. And Portland and Philadelphia and Atlanta and Seattle, I mean, you have all these teams that are sort of in the middle pack, right?
So the kind of fun answer, you’ve got the original founders, you’ve have those that came around in the middle of our 25-year period, and then you have the really, really new folks. And all of them are trying to figure out what is the right way for us to ensure that we have the most competitive product to create an opportunity that any given day, any team could win? And at the same time in a very competitive and crowded marketplace, ensure that we have a product on the field that's exciting, compelling and is competitive, particularly now that we're getting into more competitions with Liga MX.
So I think less about the guys with the early teams are thinking about and more about what is the right formula? What I will say is the Krafts, the Hunts and Phil Anschutz and Kroenke, these guys are great partners. They got in early, they're thinking about the best interests of the league. They've invested massive amounts of money.
Grant Wahl:
So I had the terrific ESPN reporter, John Sutcliffe, who does a lot on Mexico, but he also does Monday Night Football, on my podcast this week. And he's well connected in Mexico. And he still thinks that the expanded month-long Leagues Cup in 2023, with every Liga MX and MLS team in it, will eventually lead to a full merger of the two leagues. And if Sutcliffe thinks that, there's a good chance that Liga MX owners think that. What do you say to that?
Don Garber:
[Laughs] Well, I think if I had to say, Grant, you've probably asked most of these questions over the last 20 years, there are probably four or five questions I get asked all the time: promotion and relegation, the international calendar, when is Miami coming into the league, and now when is MLS going to be merging with the Mexican league? Right? So we don't have the international calendar. We're not going to have promotion and relegation, and we're not going to be merging with the Mexican league, but we do have a team in Miami. I also get asked when's New York and Boston going to get soccer stadiums? And we will at some point have those.
So I think when putting John, and I have a lot of respect for John, and I'm really not that concerned about what the Liga MX owners think, because at the end of the day, that's not a decision they're going to make, it's a decision that we're going to make in terms of making the decision to go forward with the concept of a merger. The whole idea, putting aside what their objectives might be, is to have inter-league play between our two leagues, right? We want to make CONCACAF more relevant, more powerful, to take the two leagues that are the most important drivers of the sport here in this region, be able to be in a position to drive value for everybody, fans, players, clubs and whatnot.
And we're going to get that value with the Leagues Cup, without having to go with tearing up corporate structures, figuring out how they have to get a CBA, a salary cap, all the things that you asked before about the international clubs. Well guess what, Liga MX is an international league, right? And they don't have the salary caps, they don't have a CBA. And God bless them, I love their president, he and I have become great friends, Enrique Bonilla is one of my really good friends, their former president. I love what they're doing with their league. I have a number of owners that I'm very friendly with, I've gone to many games down there, they're building stadiums, they're modernizing their league and let's just get this thing going. Let's have everybody say, Leagues Cup is so successful, what's next? But it's not happening until 2023, so we’ve got to think about what's now until we think about what's next.
Grant Wahl:
There's one other question that I tend to ask you that you didn't mention. I'm going to finish on this one. What's your current contract status and how long do you want to keep being commissioner?
Don Garber:
Well, I think that is something that you ask me every year, Grant. My contract runs through the 2023 season. So I still have some time, and I will have plenty of time to think about what the future holds for what is now the second-longest standing commissioner in the major leagues in North America. I came in, I was the young pop, I'm now an old dog [laughs].
Grant Wahl:
The MLS Cup final between Portland and New York City is Saturday at 3 pm Eastern on ABC and Unimas. Don, thanks for coming on the show.
Don Garber:
Thanks, Grant.
Grant, what's the right number of Number 1 seeds making the final? You think the current rate is too low and I don't disagree, but 100 percent is too high, else there'd be no point to playoffs. Upsets are supposed to be rare, but how rare? Should 50 percent of Number 1 seeds make the final? 75 percent?
Thanks, Grant. It must be VERY difficult to just ask the questions without injecting your own personal opinion into interviews with people like Don Garber. Because I disagree with him on a whole host of issues.
It’s untrue that the 5 top leagues in Europe don’t spend money on infrastructure. Recent evidence: Arsenal, Tottenham, Chelsea, Liverpool, Everton have spent or have plans to spend fortunes. That’s just England, and that’s what I can recall off the top of my head. Meanwhile, in MLS, nobody builds anything without demanding public tax money. Recent MLS evidence: the fiasco in Columbus.
It’s untrue that MLS is better competitively than people think. MLS can’t even compete on the field with Liga MX. Evidence: CONCACAF champions league. When MLS starts dominating that we can revisit how competitive MLS is world-wide. It’s true MLS teams are very competitive amongst themselves. That’s what a salary cap does.
If I was to do a word usage search of Mr. Garnet’s comments, I’m sure “value” and “investment” would both be in the most-used top 5. That tells you all you need to know about what he feels is most important to MLS - the money.
He criticizes the super league in Europe and claims without player salary caps that European models will fall apart while the MLS (franchise) model will go on. Well, what Europe has that MLS doesn’t have is an *investment floor*. It’s called “promotion and relegation”, and if you don’t invest in your club you don’t stay in those top 5 European leagues. Not for long, anyway. Tanking can’t even *exist* in Europe. If you don’t win, you’re out. In MLS, there’s no trapdoor, so there’s zero risk to the value and investment Mr. Garber emphasizes so much. And let’s face it - removing the trapdoor was the whole impetus behind the super league.
Fans want MLS to improve on the *field*, which is what will improve the balance sheet. I just don’t see that as the primary goal of the league.
Sorry this is so long. Love your stuff, Grant. Enjoy Portland. That atmosphere will be CRAZY.