The Interview: ESPN's John Sutcliffe
One of North America's Top Reporters Brings the Inside Scoop on the Mexican Men's National Team, a Potential Liga MX/MLS Merger, Whether He Thinks Tata Martino Will Coach Mexico at the World Cup, More
ESPN’s John Sutcliffe is one of my favorite reporters around. You might have seen him talking to Aaron Rodgers or Bob Kraft or Odell Beckham Jr. on Monday Night Football, or you might have seen him talking about the Mexican men’s national soccer team, which he covers as well as anyone. It was great to catch up with my friend recently, and there’s lots of good stuff in our discussion.
Grant Wahl:
Our guest now is one of the top sports reporters in North America. John Sutcliffe works for ESPN, and you can find him on a bunch of different platforms, including the radio and Monday Night Football. He also works with the Mexican national team covering that and does work on golf as well. John, it's great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
John Sutcliffe:
Grant, un abrazo, amigo. It's a pleasure. It's always fun. You remind me of Landon Donovan yelling at me dos a cero. I don't know why [laughs].
Grant Wahl:
It's funny, because we have Landon on my podcast after every U.S. men's World Cup qualifier talking about the game. I'll try and get him to say that and we'll make it a sound bite but...
John Sutcliffe:
Yeah. Yeah.
“Mexico's been living a big lie. I think that this pandemic, this economic crisis, has made the teams in Central America really go down. I covered Mexico in the summer in the Gold Cup and the other tournaments they played. And you could see how Honduras and El Salvador, they were struggling to get the Covid tests, what hotel they're going to stay in. They don't have money to do all the logistics. So I do think that Canada, the States and Mexico have shown their power, their strength in money and organization. So now when Honduras and El Salvador and Costa Rica can’t compete, then Mexico is qualifying very easily to the World Cup. But that doesn't mean you're playing better.” — John Sutcliffe
Grant Wahl:
We've known each other for a long time. I was actually thinking back to when I first met you. Was it the 1998 World Cup?
John Sutcliffe:
Probably. My first World Cup I covered was for radio in ‘94. In '98 it was with Univision. I covered Bordeaux and Nantes. So that's when I started to learn a lot of things about television, like Q&A and live-to-tape and all those things that I had no idea what it was, but yes, in the good old days with Andrés Cantor and Norberto Longo and Jesse Losada. Remember those good old days?
Grant Wahl:
The glory days, man, a lot of good memories. I think I met you in Nantes, it must have been, because I was there covering a game early in the tournament between Nigeria and Spain, which was a classic one.
John Sutcliffe:
I have a great story about that game. So Bora Milutinovic, I've known Bora since I was five years old, because a man called Nick Petrovic brought him to Mexico. He was like his second dad, brought him to play with Pumas, and I met Bora when I was five. We belonged to the same golf course, Club Chapultepec. So I remember the day before that game, the Prime Minister, the main government official of Nigeria, had passed away. So Bora went to the press conference and if you remember, he only gave his words of what had happened and he basically cut off the press conference, but he said, "With you," he pointed at me and he said," I'll talk to you after," so all the Spanish media came next to me and Bora said, "I'm only going to talk to him."
So it's one of those that you're young, you're trying to make your name, and Bora gave me all that publicity. It was awesome. I love him. I still see him this time of year. He usually comes back from Qatar to see his daughter, and he's somebody very special in my life because when I was seven, eight years old, he would take me to go see Pumas, and I was an América fan, but it was part of...
You know, I didn't realize who he was. He would just train us at the club. And then when I started growing up, he's a professional soccer player and he's a head coach and it was awesome. So yes, that and then if I'm not mistaken, Nigeria won like 4-2 or...
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Grant Wahl:
They beat Spain. One of the greatest World Cup games I've ever seen, and Bora was coaching that Nigeria team. The crazy thing, John, is there's so many new fans, including my listeners of the U.S. men's national team over the last few years that a lot of them don't even know who Bora is. And I should explain to them right now. Bora Milutinovic coached the U.S. in the '94 World Cup, got them to the second round, lost to Brazil. But he also coached the Mexican national team.
John Sutcliffe:
He's the only coach to have been in five World Cups, because he was Mexico '86, Costa Rica '90, U.S. '94, Nigeria '98, China 2002. And he actually had to patent his name in China because they were making plates and towels and t-shirts with Bora's name. So yes, he's a very different character that I do think that Mexican football has not given him his respect. I think Bora has a chip on his shoulder on that side, Grant, that he's never been really given what he's done for Mexican football. That's something that I think made him leave Mexico a long time ago.
Grant Wahl:
It's really interesting. He got Mexico to the quinto partido], the fifth game, in 1986, which hasn't...
John Sutcliffe:
Germany...
Grant Wahl:
... happened. Yeah. They go out on penalties to Germany.
John Sutcliffe:
Penalty kicks, yeah.
Grant Wahl:
And I visited him in China in '02 before that World Cup, and he was an absolute rock star there. But he's living in Qatar most of the time now. So I'm looking forward to seeing him at the World Cup.
So when it comes to Liga MX, what's standing out to you these days in terms of storylines?
John Sutcliffe:
I think you have the teams that have money, the teams that have been spending money and not necessarily getting the best results. But I think you have different social classes, because the most popular teams for years have been América, Cruz Azul and Pumas, but right now the two rich teams are in Monterey, Rayados and Tigres. Tigres is I think the only team that can compete spending-wise with MLS teams for the Mexicans. I can tell you they went for Héctor Herrera. They've been going after him for a while. I also heard that Austin was close to getting Héctor Herrera, so that's what we're seeing.
But there also is a big pandemic economic crisis. Now 12 teams make the playoffs. It's ridiculous, but I think Mexican soccer is living hard times because of COVID, just like the MLS has had hard times. But at the end of the day, Chivas and América are the two most popular teams. América will retain Santiago Solari. They're going to finally spend money. I think América used to be known like the Riches, we called them Ricky Ricón, remember that cartoon Richie Rich?
Grant Wahl:
Yep.
John Sutcliffe:
And he would spend all the money. That's how América used to be. And they haven't done that lately. And I think they've realized that if they don't start putting some money up, they're not going to be able to compete with Tigres or Rayados.
Grant Wahl:
And what do you make of the relationship that continues to grow between Liga MX and Major League Soccer? They announced this tournament that's going to take a month. I guess it's starting in ‘23 and it's going to be a World Cup-style tournament involving every team from both leagues. What's going on there?
John Sutcliffe:
I know that the most important owners, Emilio Azcárraga, Alejandro Irarragorri, Ricardo Salinas, Jesús Martínez, they want to see if there's a way to do a joint venture with MLS in 2026. What I've been told is the Mexican league has something that the U.S. hasn't been able to do, is get a great TV contract. And a great TV contract would come if it involves América, Pumas, Cruz Azul. I remember [Liga MX CEO] Mikel Arriola showing me a study they did on it. Let me see if I remember the numbers, but let's say there's 15 million Mexicans that watch Liga MX in Mexico. And there's like 40 million Mexicans that watch Liga MX in the States. It's almost triple the audience in the States for Liga MX, and they have 600% more capacity of spending. So I think they're going to try, I was told recently that I think that the MLS team in Vegas, they're going to pay $450 million for it.
Cincinnati was $300 million. And then here they sell Querétaro for $25 million and they’ve got to pay it in monthly fees. I think they are going to try it. If you see [FIFA president Gianni] Infantino has said something, I think they're going to try it. I do think it'll come down to a day when there'll be a billion dollar contract for TV rights that has to involve everybody. And maybe the TV contracts, what it's going to say, even though I've heard you talk to a lot of people in the States, they say, no, no, no, no, no. That's never going to happen. A lot of people don't want it to happen. But if the business side happens, it's going to happen, Grant, or at least they're going to try to make it happen.
Grant Wahl:
It's a fascinating story. And we've had Don Garber on this podcast. We've had Alejandro Irarragorri on this podcast.
John Sutcliffe:
Alejandro's the one who had the idea.
Grant Wahl:
Don's not denying it.
John Sutcliffe:
No, no, no, no, no, because obviously there's a lot of things, the way Mexican soccer is done and the contract, there's a lot of things that would have to improve to have the high quality of how things are run in the States. But it's all about dinero,it's about money. If you can find a way, look, I know the idea they had or the idea they have is 30 MLS teams, 20 Mexican Liga MX teams, a joint venture for TV rights. And just imagine if you can actually sell the rights that involve América, Pumas and Cruz Azul in Spanish and English, and then Puebla goes to play New York, and they're going to have a great fan base that a lot of people from Puebla live in New York, even Morelia might come back to Liga MX. So I do think they're going to try it. I don't know if it's going to happen, but all of these tournaments they're doing is Mikel Arriola has been asked by the owners, hey, we need dollars, not pesos. So they're going after the dollars.
Grant Wahl:
And you cover the Mexican national team. What's your sense of where that team is right now under Tata Martino?
John Sutcliffe:
First of all, I was there in Cincinnati, and I said on Fútbol Picante, on SportsCenter ESPN. Mexico's been living a big lie. And I'll explain why, I think that this pandemic, this economic crisis, has made the teams in Central America really go down. I covered Mexico in the summer in the Gold Cup and the other tournaments they played. And you could see how Honduras and El Salvador, they were struggling to get the Covid tests, what hotel they're going to stay in. They don't have money to do all the logistics. So I do think that Canada, the States and Mexico have shown their power, their strength in money and organization. So now when Honduras and El Salvador and Costa Rica can’t compete, then Mexico is qualifying very easily to the World Cup. But that doesn't mean you're playing better. And then you realize that the U.S. and Canada, there's a flavor for soccer.
You’ve got players in Europe. You probably have a number in your mind. But last time I checked, there was like five Mexicans playing Champions League, and there's like a dozen Americans. And our main Mexican players in Europe aren't playing. Tecatito [Corona], Herrera, [Andrés] Guardado, [Diego] Lainez. So you take out Hirving Chucky Lozano and the rest have been question marks, even Raúl Jiménez. He's not back at a hundred percent.
So I think that's where you're living. And then I do think there's some kind of lacking chemistry between Tata and the players. I learned a long time ago from Jared Borgetti to look at how you train, how they walk, how they get on the bus, how they warm up, and that tells you a lot. And I don't see them happy. I don't see the Mexican team happy. I was in Indy for a couple of days in the same hotel, where they were preparing for the game in Cincinnati. And there's something there that's not clicking. I don't know if Tata has had, he doesn't talk directly to the players. It's more his assistants, and you know how Mexican players are. If you don't bring the family in, you don't let him have some time off, if they can't have a couple of beers, those things sometimes. Well, even the U.S. I think is struggling now with that new world, but a lot of players saying, ‘Hey, we want it different. We're not soldiers. No.’
Grant Wahl:
There's been a bit of that. You know, the COVID protocols are really tight inside the U.S. national teams, including the men's team. And, you know, you saw what happened with Weston McKennie, you know, back in September being sent home for...
John Sutcliffe:
That usually happens with Mexico, not the U.S. [laughs]
Grant Wahl:
So I do think there's some of that, but I would say that kind of like what you're saying with the Mexican team, I actually do feel like for the most part, when I'm around this U.S. men's team that they enjoy coming into the national team camp to play with each other. And that hasn't always been the case under Bruce Arena even in 2017 or Jürgen Klinsmann before that. And I do think there is something that can be seen when you're just watching players interact on the national team. Do they look like they're enjoying being here?
John Sutcliffe:
That tells you a lot, Grant. I learned that from Jared Borgetti and I'll give you an example how sometimes priorities aren’t priorities. Before the game in Cincinnati, Edson Álvarez and Hirving Lozano had to fly from Europe to Mexico City to film a commercial for a sponsor. And then they were delayed in Mexico City airport. They had to fly to Chicago. They had to be driven to Indianapolis, and they missed a day and a half of practice for Tata.
Grant Wahl:
Wow.
John Sutcliffe:
So maybe each of them got a million dollars or $500,000. And maybe the U.S. men's national team, even [Christian] Pulisic, you tell a player, hey, you're going to make 500 grand, but we need you to go to L.A. and then report a day later, he might say yes, but those little things add up, and it's not necessarily the best decision on the pitch.
So we have a lot of these kind of things. I think Tata has had a strong hand on discipline. There's no question Chicharito [Hernández] is out because of what he did, those parties that happened in Jersey and San Antonio, and then there were some girls that needed their bill to be paid. And he asked somebody on the Mexican team, can you help them out from operations?
And then [Mexican federation president] Yon de Luisa saw that kid at some point and it cost him his job and Chicharito didn't do anything about it. And then Tata says, hey, I'm not taking this. You're gone. And so certain things I think you do have the discipline, but at the end of the day, I think the biggest concern thinking of the World Cup, not qualifying is what Juan Carlos Osorio would always tell us. How can you beat a team where their players every week compete with the best in the world and they play their starters?
And I think that's our biggest issue. Because if you realize right now, even some of the players on the Mexican team from Liga MX weren’t playing good lately, and then you realize, Chucky is, and then you go back Tecate hasn’t been playing. Raúl's not a hundred percent, Guardado is not a hundred percent, HH doesn’t have the minutes he would like at Atlético Madrid. The Mexican team is like a blockbuster movie that sells like crazy. Everybody wants to see it, it’s not necessarily the best product, but it sells like crazy. They just announced the new logo. Right?
Grant Wahl:
Right.
John Sutcliffe:
And I say, well, I don't like it very much, but then they say, hey, John, what happens is this new logo prints a lot easier. And it saves a lot of costs from the old logo. Boom, that's the reality of changing the logo of the Mexican national team. It's a way to save money on producing the jerseys.
Grant Wahl:
Do you think Tata Martino will be Mexico's coach at the World Cup?
John Sutcliffe:
Yes. I have no question. The only time the big bosses get nervous, Look, the Mexican national team's interests are controlled by the Mexican open air TV. That's a reality. They have the rights and they usually say, look, if we have two or three good games prior to the World Cup and Mexico plays four games, we're good. When mathematically you are in trouble to qualify, like when they had to bring Piojo in to go to New Zealand, or when they convince Javier Aguirre to help them out for South Africa. That's when the alarms sound, but Tata's going to qualify. Obviously next year if something happens in Jamaica and then something happens in Azteca, that's when you probably get a phone call from the owners. I do see Tata being in the World Cup, but if he mathematically gets into trouble to qualify, that's when the changes happen. I don't think that's going to happen.
Grant Wahl:
John Sutcliffe is always the man to talk to about things in Mexican soccer, North American soccer, the NFL. He does so much good work everywhere. John, thanks so much for coming on the show.
John Sutcliffe:
More than happy. Un abrazo, amigo.