The Interview: Donald Wine II of the American Outlaws
Wine (134 caps For U.S. National Team Games) Will Be On-Location At All Three USMNT World Cup Qualifiers This Week
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Grant:
Our guest now is Donald Wine II. He's a board member of the American Outlaws, the biggest supporters group of the U.S. national teams. He has 134 caps total for attending U.S. men's and women's games over the years, and he'll be onsite at all three U.S. men's World Cup qualifiers over the next week in El Salvador, Nashville, and Honduras. Donald is also the manager of Stars & Stripes FC, including their podcasts and writes for Black and Red United and the Duke Basketball Report, in addition to being part of the World of Concacaf Podcast, you can find him on twitter at @blazindw. Donald, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on the show.
Donald Wine II:
Hey, good to be on, Grant, and appreciate you.
Grant:
I'm looking forward to seeing you in person later this week. We're recording this on Monday and coming out Thursday morning. By that time, you and I will both be in El Salvador for Thursday night's qualifier. What are your plans for travel over the next week to U.S. games?
Donald Wine II:
Well, the traveling has been kind of hectic as you're aware because of COVID restrictions both here and abroad and also just reentry. The first step was really just getting through all of that and navigating that red tape. But now that that is just about done, I'm ready just to get packing and figure out how I'm going to put my life into a suitcase for a week and get ready to go to all these games. I mean, when we're in El Salvador, we'll have events. We'll have a Night Before party.
We'll have a pregame of some sort, and then Nashville obviously will be the big one since it's the home match. We'll have, again, a Night Before party at TailGate, which is a brewery in downtown Nashville, and then we'll also have a tailgate at the stadium prior to the match. Those are our two main things, and then in Honduras we’ll do the same thing. We haven't finalized those plans yet, because as of today, we still don't have tickets, which is another thing that we've had to navigate because of COVID. But we're just rolling with the punches right now.
Grant:
How many people are you expecting on the trips to all three sites? Obviously it should be a bigger crowd for the Nashville game.
Donald Wine II:
Yeah. I believe we have about 50 or so going down to El Salvador for the game on Thursday, and then we will have probably a similar amount going to Honduras as well. We've sold about 3,000 tickets for the game in Nashville, so that should be a really good group. And that's really for a lot of people one of the first times that they're coming back to matches for some people in quite a long time. We had kind of a buildup during the Gold Cup and Nations League, but this is the real deal and a lot of people are really excited. Based on the summer, they have every reason to be. We're expecting that to be a nice little party.
Grant:
Yeah. I've always thought that there was a real tourism opportunity, and we've seen in recent years now the American Outlaws have gotten bigger and bigger and more people are traveling, including to away games in CONCACAF, which I've always thought is a kind of a mixture of Rough Guide and sports fandom. How would you describe what a trip is like to El Salvador where you're going this week?
Donald Wine II:
Well, I'll find out when I get there, because it will be my first time in El Salvador. But for all these games that we're going to abroad, there's nothing like being an away fan and being that one of 50 or a hundred, or I'm sure you've been a part of even smaller crowds where there's 10 or 20. You're walking into a stadium and it's full of people and every single one of those people are rooting against your team, and you have to be the loud ones for your team. It is a lot of fun. But the other thing is I love traveling.
I love the game of soccer, and this combines the two. I love seeing new cultures, meeting new people, visiting new places. I mean, soccer has taken me places I would have never thought about visiting. And because there was a game there, I go, okay, well, let's see what this country has to offer. And every single time the people are very warm, welcoming. It's just those 90 minutes that they hate us. But before that, you're splitting beers with them. You're having food with them.
You're learning about them and how they grew up, learning about their city. It's just a fun time. And also with the Americans that are there, you get to become closer with a lot of people, because you're not close with someone until you go into the Azteca with them, or you go into Costa Rica, or you go to St. Vincent. Because those times, everyone is linked. They're linked to that moment. They're linked to that trip, and it guides us through the rest of our lives.
Grant:
It's actually my first trip to El Salvador as well. I keep a list of countries I've been to, and I haven't added a new one in a really long time. So I'm excited to add El Salvador to the list. I have my own list of how many caps I've got. It's right around yours, maybe a slight bit more, but I've been covering this team for 25 years. It's a really cool thing. And whenever I've traveled to cover away qualifiers, home qualifiers, there's always the American Outlaws. How big has the group gotten at this point?
Donald Wine II:
We're at 200 chapters, including one in Mexico City and one in London. What's great is we have a game coming up in Azteca and we actually can do sort of a home type of setup with a Night Before party and a pregame involving the host chapter. That's always great to do, and we're looking forward to going back down there. We're about 20,000 members at this point.
We obviously dropped a little bit because of COVID, but our growth in the last couple of months with the men and then the women going to the Olympics, our growth has been astronomical over the past few months as people start to get re-engaged and re-excited about these teams.
Grant:
I want to hear a little bit about your story. How did you get connected to traveling to go to U.S. national team games in the first place?
Donald Wine II:
I didn't go to my first U.S. game until 2008. It was that really hot game against Argentina at the old Meadowlands when Tim Howard stifled Leo Messi twice on a breakaway. I was at that game with one of my best friends from law school. We just kind of went to the game as fans. We'd never been to a game before. We're like, "Let's do it." And at the end of the game, it starts pouring rain. We're sitting on the sideline and we look over the end zone and we see a group of people just going absolutely crazy in the end zone.
And I go, "I don't know who those people are, but next time we're sitting with them because that looks like a lot of fun." And I looked up and it was the American Outlaws and Sam's Army, and I was like, "I'll just join both and see what happens." The American Outlaws sent me a nice little care package with a membership shirt and it said "Welcome to the family." And that was all it took. A few months later, the team came to DC and that was when I bought my first ticket in the AO section.
It's been great ever since, because, again, I'm combining two things I love: soccer and travel. Getting to see the world, getting to see this country, and going to a lot of cities, meeting new folks, and just taking it in. The AO family thing is real. We really have become a family. We vacation together. We hang out together. Whenever I'm in a city, I make sure I call them up. It just so happened I was stranded in Charlotte a couple of nights ago on a layover, and first thing I did was call a couple people from AO.
They took me in and showed me a good time while I was going through a travel nightmare. That's what it's about, and that's what it's become. What's great is that each day, each match, it gets bigger, and you meet new people. It's like a family reunion every single time you go to a match.
Grant:
And you've been to World Cups, right? Men's and women's?
Donald Wine II:
Men's and women's. I've been to one men’s and two women's World Cups. I'm undefeated for the women. 2023, everyone in Australia and New Zealand, look out. I'm planning on being there the whole month, because I’ve got to keep the streak alive.
Grant:
And which of the men's World Cups did you go to?
Donald Wine II:
I went to the one in 2014 in Brazil for the group stage.
Grant:
And I guess one question people might have who are hearing this and it sounds interesting to them, one question is safety, especially when you're traveling in maybe Central America, Mexico, or wherever. How do you deal with that?
Donald Wine II:
I mean, you just be vigilant, you be careful, and you stay as a group. I mean, the great thing is when you're with people that you know, you have their back and they have yours, you're going to be as safe as possible, and you're not going to get into anything stupid. You're not going to venture down blocks that you probably shouldn't. But really also it's the locals that are helping us. The locals are saying, "Hey, go to this place. It's really cool. Stay away from this part of town, or stay away from this group." You're learning as you go.
But at the same time, I've never felt unsafe in any of these countries that I’ve been to, because we're always together. We're always with people. And even when it's a situation, and I know you've had some experiences where you get to a place and they're basically saying, "Don't leave the hotel. You can't go outside after dark, and you can't go here after dark," so after 8 pm they lock everything down. But even then, you still feel safe because you're with your people.
You know you have security and you know you have people who are around you that are going to make sure you're safe. It is always a question, but you have the same questions when you go to some places in the United States, right? It's just about being with people that you know are going to take care of you and have your back, and also just to be conscious of where you are, learn and read up and make sure you are ready and prepared as if you were going to somewhere else that you're not very familiar with.
Grant:
How much does the American Outlaws do when it comes to organizing stuff around travel?
Donald Wine II:
We try to make it as affordable as possible for everyone to go to matches, and we can't make things free unfortunately. Otherwise, we would have done it by now. We would have figured that code out, but really what it is about making sure that we can get as many people to matches as possible. That's advocating for cheaper tickets. That's advocating for making sure that they have bigger stadiums or bigger allotments of cheap tickets so that fans can take advantage of that. We help them with travel.
We have discounts on airlines, hotel blocks, even rental cars, which is really a big deal right now because the rental car market has just skyrocketed since people started going back outside. We even allow for that. Parking at airports so that you don't have to worry about paying $20 a day for parking. We have a group deal where you can get $3 a day parking in some cities. All of those things work out where we want to make it where a family of four could feel like they can go to a match.
And really, honestly, the biggest thing is we hear a lot about people who can't afford the games in their own city. And that's where we try to help out with the cheaper tickets, making accommodations for people who are traveling, but also making it so that we can ensure that you don't miss out on a game because of price. It may be because you have to work or some other thing, but we try to make it where price isn't the determining factor. That's always something we're struggling with, and we work with U.S. Soccer hand-in-hand to make sure that happens.
They've been great with that, but that is our deal. We want to make sure that everyone gets to experience what we get to experience, because we know how fun it is, and it's even more fun when more people are involved.
Grant:
And then is there always a Night Before party the night before the game?
Donald Wine II:
Yes, that is one of our staples. It's kind of how AO was founded. Back in 2006 when the founders went to the World Cup in Germany, they were looking for a Night Before party and couldn't find one. They said, "That's something that has to be at the centerpiece of what we do to welcome everyone in." That's where our host chapters are so awesome. They come in and they welcome everyone in their own little ways. Some have traditions that they give to everyone else.
Some have other ways to welcome people, but it's the one place where people can meet others from around the country who are there for the same thing they are and to enjoy the city that they're in.
Grant:
I know that Mexico away is not part of this window of games, but I have always said to people, if you have a bucket list and you're a soccer fan, you need to go to a World Cup qualifier between the U.S. and Mexico in Mexico City. What's it like?
Donald Wine II:
It's amazing. It's incredible. A lot of people will have this conception that Mexico fans hate us all the time. They are one of the nicest groups of people you'll ever meet in your life, until you enter Azteca Stadium, and then it's ruthless. But it is absolutely one of the things that everyone who is a soccer fan must do. And I don't say just U.S. soccer fan. I don't say just Mexico soccer fan. Any soccer fan. That is one of the biggest matches in the world.
And unfortunately, because of the expanding World Cup, this cycle might be the last time we have that guaranteed for us to do. We're going to be hosting [the World Cup] in 2026 and for 2030 they're probably going to do it where they split us up into a couple of groups and separate us. We won't have this opportunity for a long time. So I stress to you, if you can have the means and you pick one away trip, Mexico away, that's the one you want to do in March.
And honestly, it could be where one or two of those teams could be still fighting for a World Cup spot. It's very possible. We've had that happen before. We want to make sure that we're turning that into a party and making sure that we're clinching or have already clinched by then so that we could go ahead and enjoy our time there.
Grant:
It's absolutely incredible to go to a qualifier against the U.S. and Mexico City. I would highly recommend it to anyone listening. One question I had, correct me if I'm wrong here, so back in 2016, the U.S. played Mexico in a qualifier in Columbus. This was like three days after Donald Trump won the election. Am I right in remembering that members of the American Outlaws sort of sought out Mexico fans outside the stadium to say, "Hey, you're welcome here. It's a weird time, but we're happy you're here."
Donald Wine II:
Yeah, absolutely. And honestly, they were coming up to us too. I even recall when we went down there in June of 2017 for the away trip at Azteca. There was a group of Mexico fans who started chanting, "Donald Trump. Donald Trump," and their fans shut them down saying, "No, these guys are great. These guys are not a part of this problem. We are on the same boat. We're just enemies when we go inside the stadium. But right now, we're welcoming them just like they welcomed us."
We had conversations with them as we were waiting through security, and they're like, "Hey, don't worry about those guys. You guys are welcome here. We just hope your team loses." That's kind of the brotherhood where like, even with other countries, right? When they come in and they start talking to us, a lot of times it's messing with fans say, "No, no, no, no. That's our job. We get to do that. You don't get to do that." That game was weird on a lot of levels [in 2016], and the loss didn't help for a lot of people.
But I will say, before the game, there was a lot of breaking bread between the two fan bases and a lot of hugging and pictures and sharing of drinks. It was a camaraderie that we haven't seen in this rivalry in quite a while, and I think that was a beautiful moment that came from what was an otherwise pretty dark time for a lot of us.
Grant:
Thanks for explaining and sharing a little bit. What are some of your craziest and most memorable stories following the U.S. team since you've been doing this?
Donald Wine II:
I'll tell you a good story of the most beautiful place on earth, and it was a place that I would never have visited if I wasn't following this team. It was at the World Cup in Brazil. We took a side trip to Fernando de Noronha, which I don't know if you guys were ever able to get down to that island. It is literally the most beautiful place on earth, rated by everyone. Three of their five beaches are listed in the top five in the world, and not the No. four or five. We went through a couple of them, and then we said, "We're going to do the best one."
You have to basically go down this little cliff about 300 feet and walk down this drawbridge, like straw bridge, whatever, you're kind of walking around. You finally enter this beach. We look at one side and the cliff has a waterfall. Our tour guide who was with us said, "You guys are lucky. We don't get that waterfall but maybe one or two days a year." And as you turn around, the sun was basically in its twilight. We're standing on this beach looking at this waterfall, then turn around and looking at the sun.
And one of my friends goes, "Guys, I can't believe that soccer brought us here." It was just one of those moments where I always think back and that will be one of the highlights of my life to be on that beach. That's something that soccer really gave me, and it's one of the things where there's a lot of fun moments. There's a lot of moments that will make your spine tingle, but there was that. Whatever moments those are, soccer made that happen, and following this team made that happen. And if I wasn't so diehard or crazy about this team, I wouldn't have been able to experience that.
Grant:
That's really cool. I would love to get to Fernando de Noronha, is that what it is?
Donald Wine II:
Fernando de Noronha. Yeah. It's an island about an hour off the coast of Natal, which is where we were based for that World Cup, because we had matches in that area. It made it where, again, the stars aligned. If we were in any other part of Brazil, we probably wouldn't have made it there. But we were at a place where one of the two flights a day was leaving from our airport, so we're like, we have to take advantage of this. Again, sometimes the stars just align in weird ways and make it so that things are possible.
Grant:
Another question people are going to have is how expensive does it get?
Donald Wine II:
Very. Look, I'm single. I don't have kids. I don't have a spouse, so I can look in the mirror and consult myself about some of these trips or just look at my own schedule, which is as busy it is. A lot of times if it's a trip that I'm interested in doing, I'll try to make the time to do it. And really it's about time. I mean, a lot of people are like, "Oh, you find the time to go to all these games?" That is the most difficult thing in the world, to find the time to go to all these games.
I know you're traveling all over the place, and it's not just where you're just like, "Okay. Well, I'm just doing this." You have to be super organized. And if things don't get done for this week, I'm taking my work on the road with me, because there's no way I can do two weeks worth of work in 24 hours so that I can leave for nine days. That sort of thing. But the expenses, we try to work with people to try and bring that down with cheaper tickets, cheaper flights, but we want to make it where families are able to do it.
And instead of saying, "Okay, well, the husband or the wife gets to go," they get to bring their kids too. We've seen that a lot. I think that's where we work hard is we want to make it so that more of that is possible, instead of all four of them having to forgo the trip because it was too expensive.
Grant:
I mean, the other thing is just how do you have the time? You're a lawyer. I mentioned all of the different media sites you're involved in in the introduction. That works, I guess?
Donald Wine II:
Yeah. Well, the great thing is I was trained for the pandemic because a lot of that stuff is remote. I can operate a lot of that outside of my apartment and take it on the road with me. As long as your laptop doesn't break down, then I can get my work done. And honestly, there's gamedays where I'll wake up and one of my friends will wake up and we're just doing work in the morning because we know we have to get something done before the hecticness builds up.
We'll just wake up at 7 am and get the work done that we need to do so that we can go ahead and work on the fun stuff. It means long nights. It means weird hours and working on planes and stuff like that. But however I have to get it done, I'll get it done.
Grant:
I just wanted to wrap up by asking you, if people are curious about traveling to U.S. national team games, how should they go about looking into it and learning?
Donald Wine II:
The first thing is do a lot of research. And especially now that's very important, because each country that we're going to has different restrictions: if you're vaccinated, unvaccinated, whatever that is, they're going to have you do certain things, so you have to read up on that. The great place to go is the State Department. Each embassy will tell you exactly what Americans need to do to enter the country or if it's even possible at the time. Also, stay tuned to the American Outlaws.
Becoming a member is the first step, because we will have a lot of member exclusive things like access to tickets for these upcoming games and as well as packages for some of these trips as we start putting this together. I know we're planning on one for Mexico, of course, but also Jamaica. But we also have hotel rooms and discounts for all of these games so that you can make your reservations now and not have to worry about the hotel because the hotel is taken care of.
I strongly urge you, if you're interested in becoming a member of the American Outlaws and you're in Nashville this weekend, come find me at the tailgate. We'll talk to you about it. We'll tell you about all the benefits, and hopefully you and your friends and your family will want to sign up and learn more about these road trips.
Donald Wine II is a board member of the American Outlaws, the biggest supporters group of the U.S. national teams. He has 134 caps total, soon to be 137, for attending U.S. men's and women's games over the years. He'll be on-site at all three U.S. men's World Cup qualifiers over the next week. Donald, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Donald Wine II:
Thanks for having me, Grant.
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