The Interview: Mallory Pugh

In a candid discussion, the USWNT winger reveals what went into her revival with the national team and in the NWSL

Mal Pugh is a USWNT starter these days after missing out on the Olympics last year (Photo by Emilee Chinn/Getty Images)

It’s always good to remind myself that athletes can become better interviews as they get older and experience more of what life and their sport throw at them. Mallory Pugh wasn’t the most introspective player on the USWNT when she emerged as a teenager six years ago, but now she has become a terrific interview, someone who’s candid and revealing about what has gone into reviving her career with the national team and the NWSL. I think that comes across clearly in our new interview.

The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

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Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is lighting it up in the NWSL and just rejoined the U.S. women's national team for two friendlies against Colombia ahead of next month's CONCACAF World Cup and Olympic qualifying tournament. Mallory Pugh has six goals this season for Chicago and will play for the U.S. against Colombia this Saturday at 7:30 pm Eastern on FS1. Mal, congratulations on everything you're doing, and thanks for coming on the show.

Mallory Pugh:

Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me.

Grant Wahl:

So you're back home in your home state of Colorado for this U.S. game. What's it like for you to play in front of your home fans?

“I identified myself as soccer. That's it. And I feel like when you get wrapped up in just that, everyone is so much more than just a soccer player or a football player or whatever, you know? And the more I was able to connect with all those different things and not put soccer at the top, I feel like I was able to become more whole and complete, so then obviously that translated to on the field.” — Mallory Pugh

Mallory Pugh:

I always think it's like the most special, honestly, because you're at the highest level and you're playing with the best of the world and then getting to do that in front of your family and friends is just so special. And I've been fortunate enough to be able to do it I think two times before, and each game was just so special, so I'm looking forward to Saturday.

Grant Wahl:

Let's talk numbers. How many people are you going to have at the game?

Mallory Pugh:

A lot. Yeah, it was so funny. Me and Lindsey [Horan] were texting all of everyone about, "Hey, are you using your tickets? Can we have your tickets?" So I think we actually were both able to get as many tickets as we need, so it all worked out. But yeah, then I think the game's sold out or close to being sold out, so it's going to be really special.

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Grant Wahl:

Well, you mentioned Lindsey Horan, who actually was just on my podcast a couple of weeks ago around the Champions League final that Lyon won, and it seems like Colorado players are sort of taking over the world. How far back do you go with Lindsey?

Mallory Pugh:

Yeah, so in club I never actually played against her. I think she's like four years older than me, but I first met Lindsey in it was her U-20 cycle, so we went to World Cup in Canada in I think 2014 together. We've been friends ever since, and I look up to her with a lot of things that I do. She's one of my best friends.

Grant Wahl:

I'm always curious about soccer hotbeds, and it seems like the state of Colorado has produced quite a bit of soccer talent over the years in the men's game, but it may be even more so in the women's game. What's happening in Colorado that produces this talent?

Mallory Pugh:

That's a great point, because there's four of us here right now that are from Colorado, and I think that just goes to show the youth soccer system here, it's just so special. I know me, Soph [Sophia Smith], and Jae [Jaelin Howell] were all very fortunate to have great coaches growing up. I think Real just has a huge, huge contribution just to how we play now, and just everything that we are as a player.

I think that I can't really speak for Lindsey because she played for Rush, which is like our rivals, but I don't know. I think it is funny just to see how many people are coming out of Colorado and even the girls younger than Soph and Jae. It's really special and I don't know, maybe it's the altitude.

Grant Wahl:

I wanted to ask you about something that Vlatko Andonovski, the U.S. coach, said last week in his media conference around the announcement of this roster. He gave you this giant public vote of confidence and basically said, "Mal's going to start, and I plan on using her as a starter and I don't see that changing this window at all." What does that mean to get that much of a vote of confidence from the coach when there's so much talent obviously in the U.S. team?

Mallory Pugh:

Right. I think obviously this environment is very competitive, and I think that trying to bring that competitiveness each and every day in training is just the way you have to do it, whether you are starting or you're not, it's like a fight or die environment, and I think that's what makes it so special.

I don't know. I feel like my mindset ever since I got on this team, it hasn't really changed. It's like you fight for your spot, and there's other people fighting for that spot. But again, I think that's the beauty of it, and it is a crazy environment. But I think that it's what makes this team go and what has made us so successful.

Grant Wahl:

It's awesome to see you doing this well, both in the league, with the national team. And it’s a little bit of a reminder I think to everyone, fans and media alike and everyone, that progress in this sport is not a linear deal. Because I remember covering you at the 2016 Olympics, and I know you weren't on the Olympic roster last year, and I wanted to get a sense from you about how you've approached that, what has led to what you're doing now at such a high level.

Mallory Pugh:

I think looking back at it, I think being off that roster, not being on this team for a little bit, was probably a huge blessing in disguise. At the time anyone is like, "What is going on? How do you get through this?" But I think any athlete, you just need adversity. You need it, and it just grows your character as much as it can impact you on the field, and I think for me, it made me learn a lot about myself and as a person. And I think that translated to me being me on the field. I think, obviously at the time it was really hard and tough, but also I saw the positives out of it, and I ran with those. I don't know. I was trying to go with the flow.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah, it's really cool. I wonder were there any particular things that someone said to you during the tough stretches or anything that really stood out to you that helped you either from a mental approach or even changing your routine or doing anything differently to prepare?

Mallory Pugh:

Yeah, honestly it was like a whole body, mind, soul, physical, literal shift. It was crazy. I think mentally, I work with a sports psych more so... Not even a sports psych, because I've learned to see that me as a person off the field, if that is whole and complete, then you're going to see that on the field so really just working more so, it wasn't even soccer related.

Soccer is like the easy and fun part. I think there was just a bunch of other stuff that I made a big deal, and it shouldn't have been a big deal. So I feel like I kind of I say it to people, I stepped away and I feel like it was good because I was able to realize what is important in my life. And also soccer is a game, and we're all very blessed and fortunate to be able to play this game as a job. We were all given this platform to be positive and change the world, so I think that looking at it like that and not so much as the stresses that come with it, I think that really helped shift a lot too.

Grant Wahl:

No, that's fascinating, and I appreciate you sharing that. In terms of the non-soccer stuff that you felt like you needed to work through, what was that? What was the stressful stuff?

Mallory Pugh:

Yeah, just realizing, I think I put soccer as like I identified myself as soccer. That's it. And I feel like when you get wrapped up in just that, everyone is so much more than just a soccer player or a football player, whatever, you know? And the more I was able to connect with all those different things and not put soccer at the top, I feel like I was able to become more whole and complete, so then obviously that translated to on the field. If that makes sense.

Grant Wahl:

It does. And I talk about this actually with my wife a lot, which is trying not to define ourselves just by what we do work-wise, and it sounds like that can be a helpful thing for a lot of people. And also learning that just because you're really good at something, even in your job doesn't mean you always enjoy it, so there's something to that as well. When you say sports psychologist, who do you work with or have you worked with?

Mallory Pugh:

Yeah, his name is Dr. Armando González. He founded the foundation, it's called Cheat Code, and he works with a lot of different people. He works with a lot of athletes. I got connected to him through my fiance [Dansby Swanson], so he works with a bunch of different people. He works with singers. It's really cool too, because he doesn't know soccer. He kind of gets it, but he's so good at what he does and it's like, what he does is finding you and you as a whole, and then also working through whatever life might throw at you.

So yeah, I meet with him like once a week, and sometimes he does this method called brainspotting, and it's super interesting. It's just you are listening to this bilateral music, and it's kind of rewiring your brain and the way the connections and everything work. I don't know the exact terms, but it works. It's amazing. I work with him probably once a week. Sometimes do that, sometimes don't, so it's been great. It's literally changed my life.

Grant Wahl:

That's really cool. I was going to ask you later on here for any listener who has not been living under a rock, your fiance is Dansby Swanson from the Atlanta Braves. And I was going to ask you, how have you sort of influenced each other? You're both professional athletes, in terms of helpful things to approaching the way you do your sports.

Mallory Pugh:

Yeah. I feel like looking back over the past four years, we both have grown so much in our careers. It's funny because I feel like Dansby, now he's finally figured out what works for him, and I feel like I have too. I don't know how that process went down. I think it was just again probably with Armando because we both work with him. Baseball world and soccer world are completely different obviously, but having someone that he's very competitive, so he gets the competitiveness aspect of everything, and he's such a winner and all he wants to do is win, so taking tidbits of that from him is always helpful.

Grant Wahl:

I wanted to ask you just about your thoughts on the current state of the U.S. women's national team, because you have big games coming up, I'm going to be in Monterrey covering that qualifying tournament for the World Cup and the Olympics. And there's been a fair amount of change since the Olympics in terms of just who's been called in. That's changed from camp to camp. How do you view things right now with the national team?

Mallory Pugh:

I think the environment is very, very good. I feel like it's nice to have Pinoe and Alex and Becky and Kelley and some experience, because we do have a lot of younger players. So I don't know, I just think that the vibe is really good, and I think anytime that you just feel it and you have that feeling, I think that hopefully can translate onto the field. And going into a major tournament, I think that it's just important just to have experience in different viewpoints of experience.

I think that it's key. I don't know. I'm just excited to see because I do feel like this group is special because there's different levels of experience. I feel like some of the younger girls, they are very, very talented. Again, I think it goes back to the competitiveness part too that we're continuing to build.

Grant Wahl:

Do you view yourself as a young player at this point? You're 24, right?

Mallory Pugh:

Yeah. [Laughs] I don't know. It's weird because the number is young, but the experience I don't think is that young. So yeah, it's weird.

Grant Wahl:

In terms of the Red Stars and the NWSL, it seems like things are going really well there for the whole team, for you with the team, a new coach, Chris Petrucelli. I know you played on, what is it? Three different NWSL teams in the last few years. What's going well there? What are the factors that go into things going well?

Mallory Pugh:

I think that one part about the Red Stars and what I've learned over the past year is that that team just never loses, and they just go about their business and not really in the limelight of things, and somehow we make it to the playoffs every year, so hopefully we continue that streak. But I think it's funny because I feel like the environment there is similar to here, just in terms of we have a bunch of veteran players and then we have a bunch of rookies. So it's also like trying just to balance that and figure out their culture with that.

But at the end of the day, we're getting points and performing, and I feel like every game we're growing and it's a long season, so as long as we continue just to take it day by day and game by game, I think hopefully we'll be in a good position.

Grant Wahl:

It's interesting because we're recording this on Tuesday. So last night here in New York, I had dinner with Briana Scurry because she's in town for her book release and-

Mallory Pugh:

Yeah, I saw that.

Grant Wahl:

... yeah, it's a really good book. And caught up with her and she's been associated with the team in Washington where you were at one point and, one, she wanted to say hello, because I told her I was interviewing you. And two, she also expressed just being a little bummed out that things didn't work out better for you in D.C. and I guess my question is what determines that? What are some of the things that determine whether something works out well or not?

Mallory Pugh:

I actually was talking to someone the other day about this. I think you see it all the time in sports. I feel like you see it in football and basketball a lot, that people will be on a team and they're not performing or whatever, and you just have to find the right fit.

I think that for me that was Chicago. And I don't know, I feel like it helped me be able to go in there last year. I had a lot of veteran players on the team, and I think that helps so much because I was able just to take a step back and all eyes weren't on me. I feel like that was probably the biggest thing, was just being surrounded by a bunch of experience and the competitive training environment, again I keep touching on, but I think that was the biggest thing that I found to kind of help me between the two.

Grant Wahl:

So we're wrapping up here with Mal Pugh. Really appreciate the time. I guess I would just ask to end things, this equal pay deal got done recently with the U.S. women's national team, fully on equal pay terms now with the U.S. men's team. Their new CBA came out, and that includes FIFA prize money. And I just wanted to get your sense of what your thoughts were on the end of a very long process.

Mallory Pugh:

I think the first thing I can say is that I'm very grateful because I know that there's been a lot of work from our PA that has gone into this, so I think that just having a grateful heart and just being able to actually change and see the change and be a part of the change, and all the people that put in their hours and all of this stuff, it was crazy.

I think that I was obviously a young player when all of this started, and so to see it come full circle is just really cool. And I think too, hopefully it just continues just to grow the women's game and have young players be able to get even more than what we do now for all the hard work and the time that they put into their craft.

Grant Wahl:

Mal Pugh and the U.S. women's national team play Colombia this Saturday at 7:30 pm Eastern on FS1. Mal, thanks for coming on the show.

Mallory Pugh:

Of course. Thank you for having me.