The Interview: Lindsay Barenz
The Oakland Soul and Roots president on the Soul's crest launch on the 50th anniversary of Title IX, the club's mission, her role in the NWSL broadcast rights negotiation with CBS and Twitch and more
Lindsay Barenz is one of the most interesting people in U.S. soccer administration. Since January, she has been the president of the Oakland Roots and Soul, which have a hardcore mission-driven ethos with the community. Before that she worked in a series of fascinating jobs in and out of soccer, including the job of negotiating the NWSL’s broadcast rights deal with CBS and Twitch. I have wanted to learn more about Barenz for a while, and that finally happened this week as I got back from vacation.
The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.
Grant Wahl:
Our guest now is Lindsay Barenz. She's the president of the Oakland Roots and Oakland Soul, which is the women's team that launches its crest this Thursday on June 23, the 50th anniversary of Title IX. Barenz, a Yale law grad, has also worked for the Washington Spirit, the NWSL league office, Real Salt Lake and the Utah Royals, in addition to the Obama Administration. Lindsay, it's great to speak to you. Thanks for coming on the show.
Lindsay Barenz:
Thanks for having me, Grant. I'm so happy to be here.
Grant Wahl:
Lots to talk about here, but I definitely want to start with the news this week. What can you tell us about Thursday's crest launch for the Oakland Soul and the significance of launching it on the 50th anniversary of Title IX?
Lindsay Barenz:
The Oakland Soul is our new women's team that we're adding to the Oakland Roots family. It will play in the USL W League starting in 2023. And the club here has always had ambitions to have a women's team. We want the Oakland Roots and the Oakland Soul to represent the entire Oakland community, and so it is a critical item for the growth and development of our club.
The team here has spent months, if not years, talking to members of the community and developing an identity, including the name and the crest for the club. And we are launching it this Thursday at an event here in Oakland that we're super excited about. And yes, it happens to be the 50th anniversary of Title IX, the historic and groundbreaking legislation that has paved the way for women's athletics in the United States. And it's really an honor that we get to launch our crest that day and to celebrate all the great things that have come from that legislation.
“We came up with this hybrid deal [for the NWSL rights in 2019] with CBS and Twitch. And we put our first game on CBS in the middle of the pandemic. And over 500,000 people watched that game. Before that, the most watched game ever in the history of the NWSL was 180,000 people. We saw our audience explode overnight 3X. And I think that those deals, while I hope that the NWSL gets bigger and better deals every year to come, I think they were absolutely monumental in the growth of that league.” — Lindsay Barenz
Grant Wahl:
So we're coming out Monday, we're talking on Saturday, and it's interesting because if you go back in the 200-some interviews we've done for my podcast, I've had Edreece Arghandiwal from the Oakland Roots on here about a year and a half, two years ago. And then we also had Matthew Wolf who designed the crest for the Oakland Roots, which is a very cool crest. Is the crest for the Oakland Soul also going to be cool? Tell me about it or what you can.
Lindsay Barenz:
Well, the beautiful thing about my commentary on the crest is that I'm not responsible for the crest. So I can praise it and tell you how incredible it's going to be, and it's really not self-serving for me because substantial credit goes Edreece. Edreece is one of the founders of the Oakland Roots and Oakland Soul, and he has such a light and vision about him and what this organization should be. And he has led the entire way on developing the identity for the Oakland Soul. And the thing about the Oakland Roots and Oakland Soul is that we strive to be a different kind of sports club. We are very values-based, very mission-driven, and totally focused on our community.
And that might sound like something people have heard other sports clubs say, but in my experience it is a very unique identity that the Roots have and a totally unique commitment. And there is no gap between the words we say and the way we make decisions and the way we conduct ourselves in the community. That doesn't mean we're perfect. That doesn't mean we don't make mistakes, but unlike any other organization I've ever been a part of, and I'm not just speaking about sports, I'm talking about any organization I've ever been a part of, there is a deep, deep commitment to our mission and to developing health, equity and happiness here in Oakland, not just putting championship soccer on the field, which is absolutely part of our mission, but to being a contributing and positive member of the community.
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Grant Wahl:
In what sort of ways is that going to manifest itself with the Oakland Soul?
Lindsay Barenz:
Well, I think that in much the same way it manifests itself with the Oakland Roots. We will have community partners who we contribute to, who are featured at our games, who are actively contributing to the health, equity, and happiness of Oakland. As an example, we don't just focus on those things through our community engagement work. It's a part of every part of our organization. We have a chief purpose officer who keeps us on the straight and narrow when it comes to living our values.
And we think about it in our corporate partnerships, in our ticketing sales, in our marketing, in every part of our organization. So back to my example, our jersey front partner is Anthem, and we conducted a coach's training session for youth coaches in the community. And yes, it was about soccer and soccer skills. But it was also about how to be an empathetic, caring coach who incorporates anti-racism into the field. And that's the kind of thing where a lot of people, again, a lot of people talk about it, but I've been at the Roots now for six months and I've never seen it in action quite like it is here.
Grant Wahl:
And the USL W League starts in 2023, but as I understand it, their calendar's going to be different than some of the leagues we're used to seeing in the U.S. How would you explain that? When does the league actually start? And could you fill me in a little bit just on when you're planning to have players, coach, etc?
Lindsay Barenz:
So we're starting in the W League, which is the pre-professional league that the USL started this year. So it will play its games in the summer, somewhat complimentary to USL League Two that the men have. Then the USL is launching the Super League, which will be the professional league that will be complimentary to USL Championship, which is the league that the Oakland Roots play in. I'll say it is our ambition to self-promote the team along the way, but we are starting in the W League, so that will be games in the spring and summer of 2023.
Grant Wahl:
Amanda Vandervort, my friend, is going to be unhappy with me for getting this wrong. So thank you for setting me straight. I appreciate it.
Lindsay Barenz:
There's a lot of leagues going on. You’ve got to keep them all straight [laughs]. And it's great, right? Because this means we're building the pyramid of women's soccer in the United States the same way it exists for men. And for a long time that hasn't existed. We've had the very elite NWSL, best in the world, and we've had the amateur leagues that get together in the summer and provide a great service to the players who get to participate in those leagues, but it's not a professional environment. But now we're filling in the pyramid, and we're going to have a dedicated pre-professional league in the W League and a Division 2 League in the Super League. And that's been missing from women's soccer. And if we want to continue to compete on the world's stage, we need a full pyramid of women's development for soccer in the United States.
Grant Wahl:
Yeah, it's really cool just to see what's happening with the women's club game in the U.S. these days and how it's blossoming and going to new places. And it's cool to see what Minnesota Aurora is doing.
Lindsay Barenz:
Incredible stuff. They're doing incredible stuff. Yeah.
Grant Wahl:
And I guess another question I would have just is how would you describe Oakland and Oakland as a soccer community and how you came about getting this job starting in January?
Lindsay Barenz:
So the Oakland Roots ran a very traditional competitive process with a recruiter to hire a president. It was very arduous, I will say. They took it very seriously and really wanted to find somebody not just with the skills that it takes to run a professional soccer club, but also who was a values fit for them. And now that I've been here, I believe the Oakland Roots is my soulmate. I know that sounds cheesy, but this club is just incredible. I absolutely love it here.
Oakland is an amazing community, so diverse, such a rich history of activism, the birthplace of the Black Power movement. So much to offer, not just the Bay Area, not just California, but the world in terms of modeling how to have a healthy and vibrant community that's very diverse. So Oakland is wonderful. We want to be good partners to Oakland, and we want to stay in Oakland forever.
Grant Wahl:
And how did you end up in soccer? Because it sounds like you've worked in areas that are outside of soccer. You've obviously worked in soccer for a while now. How'd that happen?
Lindsay Barenz:
So I am a lateral into soccer. I had a career before this, starting as an activist in politics, and then going to law school and being a lawyer and doing a little entrepreneurial stint. And then in 2016 what happened in our country happened, and I had a deep desire to contribute to righting the ship. And my instinct was to go back into politics, but I find politics really challenging. I'm too principled to be successful in politics. I cannot compromise, and politics requires compromise to be successful.
So I was searching for where I could work where I would feel like I was making a contribution positively to the community, but where I could use the skillset I developed as a mergers and acquisitions attorney in deal-making. And at the time I was searching for this place. I didn't know what it was. An NWSL team was launched in Salt Lake City where I grew up, and I was like, "Oh, duh. Sports is the intersection of business and activism."
And I love women's soccer. I'm of the age where the ‘99ers was critical to my development as a human. I was a huge NWSL fan. I love Sam Kerr. I lived in New York City and took a bus three hours to the middle of New Jersey to see her play then on Sky Blue FC. And I was like, "This is so cool." And I called my friend who was the mayor of Salt Lake City at the time, and I had run her campaign and gotten her elected. And I said, "Do you know the owner of this team that's launching a women's team in Salt Lake?"
And she said, "Yes, I do. I'm happy to introduce you, but what are you going to say? What are you going to do for them?" And I said, "I don't know. I just want to be in the organization. I want to see all the parts of it and how it all fits together." And she said, "Do you mean like an intern?" And I said, "Yeah, but let's call it executive in training." And she was like, "Okay."
So I talked my way into a job at Real and the Utah Royals where I started out as the lawyer, which was not a job that I wanted, but it was my way in the door. And I spent a couple of years there and then I went to the NWSL, and then I went to the Washington Spirit. And then I was just very, very fortunate to find my way to the Oakland Roots and Soul.
Grant Wahl:
That's really cool. Thanks for sharing that. And I do know that when you were with the NWSL league office, you were involved with the sale of broadcast rights, and the current deal you were intimately involved with with CBS and Twitch. Could you explain what that process was like?
Lindsay Barenz:
Sure. After the World Cup in 2019, the NWSL did not have a media deal, which is crazy, right? We were coming off all this attention. We were riding this huge wave of momentum, and we did not have a multi-year media rights deal. And at the time I was at Real and I was nominated, appointed, volunteered, however you want to say it, to run the process to sell the NWSL's media rights. So I was an employee at Real but I was working pretty much full time for the NWSL.
And we hired Dan Cohen at Octagon to be the agency to represent us. And we ran a very comprehensive and in some ways traditional process to sell our media rights. And that had not historically been how people had approached selling media rights in the women's sports world, right? It was very much approached from this perspective of scarcity, like, "Oh, we are lucky to get the conversation." And well, you would have one conversation with the two cable networks that show sports and that would really be the end of it.
But Dan and Octagon, they believed in the value of the NWSL, especially coming off the World Cup. And they went out and talked to everybody. There's a world in which we didn't even call CBS, in which we didn't even have a conversation with a major sports network. Or not a major sports network, with a broadcast network. But they said, "No, we're going to talk to everybody. And we're also going to talk to the streaming platforms because it's 2019, the world is moving online, and streaming platforms have audiences that in many cases way exceed the number of people who are watching cable and broadcast television."
So we talked to everyone, and we came up with this hybrid deal with CBS and Twitch. And we put our first game on CBS in the middle of the pandemic. And over 500,000 people watched that game. Before that, the most watched game ever in the history of the NWSL was 180,000 people. We saw our audience explode overnight 3X. And I think that those deals, while I hope that the NWSL gets bigger and better deals every year to come, I think they were absolutely monumental in the growth of that league and were really a turning point in legitimizing the league and putting professional club soccer on a major U.S. network for the first time in history.
Grant Wahl:
It is cool to see the NWSL games. I can see any game I want as a subscriber, but also just to see them on big CBS and getting the numbers that they're getting, which honestly have been either equivalent to what MLS has gotten on broadcast free to air TV, sometimes bigger, slightly. And I do wonder, are we at this point right now where women's sports in particular are sort of launching and people are starting to realize in the broadcast realm what women's sports could actually do with greater investment?
Lindsay Barenz:
Absolutely. And that has been a long time coming. The WNBA has been around for 25 years, and it's surviving. It's here to stay. It needs to expand so we can get more competition and talent into that league. The 2019 women's World Cup I think was absolutely a turning point that we'll never go back from. We are now at a point where enough people realize the value of investing in women's sports.
And I think for a long time there's been this idea that investing in women's sports was different than men's sports, because for some reason you had to break even year over year in women's sports, where that's never been the expectation for how you operate a men's sports team. There's always been an understanding that you might have operating losses locally or you might have operating losses year over year, but the long-term underlying asset value growth was worth it for that investment. And then at the end of your investment, you were going to cash out and make a lot of money. And now enough people with capital understand that the same investment philosophy applies to women's sports, and they're putting money in.
Grant Wahl:
I guess I am curious, just recently we saw last week the announcement of the new MLS deal for the men's league for the next 10 years with Apple, and you're going to be able to see every game from that league on Apple streaming. Do you take anything away from that about what it might mean for women's soccer and women's sports in broadcast deals moving forward?
Lindsay Barenz:
I don't know that that deal necessarily informs my thoughts on how women's sports at this moment in the trajectory should approach the sale of broadcast rights. I think more importantly to me is seeing something like the CBS women's sports block where they will put on the WNBA, the NWSL and the other women's sports properties that they broadcast all together and run advertising around women's sports weekend. Apologies to CBS for not knowing what exactly their branding is, but to take all these properties. They've invested in women's sports properties, and to put them together and bundle them with a talk show. It's just so exciting to see that happening on the largest broadcast network in this country. It's really incredible.
Grant Wahl:
I want to pull back just a little bit because you grew up queer in Utah, and as the sibling of a brother who grew up gay in Kansas, I've had some firsthand knowledge of what that might be like. But what was that experience like for you?
Lindsay Barenz:
It was difficult. I grew up in Utah in the '80s and '90s. And it’s not just being a queer kid but also being a woman, it's a challenging place if you are ambitious and seek a professional career path. I say this story somewhat notoriously, but I didn't have any professional women in my orbit growing up. I had to look for fictional role models and was a big fan of Murphy Brown. And so that was very meaningful to me to be able to see characters like that on TV.
And I think it made me who I am. I don't take no for an answer. I have so much determination when people tell me I can't do something. It just reinforces the idea that I can do it. Because as a queer kid growing up, you're told over and over and over, "You can't be that, you can't do that. You shouldn't have that dream." But I didn't listen to that and made it out. And those early obstacles are just so formative and a part of who I am.
Grant Wahl:
First Candice Bergen reference in the history of the podcast.
Lindsay Barenz:
Oh, no way. Oh, you’ve got to have more of that.
Grant Wahl:
Thank you. And am I right in saying that the campaign that you worked on with the mayor of Salt Lake City was the first mayor openly gay mayor of that city ever, correct?
Lindsay Barenz:
That's correct. Yeah. Jackie Biskupski. We elected her to the mayor of the capital city of the state of Utah in 2015.
Grant Wahl:
Would you have ever thought that was possible growing up?
Lindsay Barenz:
Never. I'll be honest, I didn't think it was possible in 2015. I went into that campaign thinking it was absolutely righteous and that we were going to prompt a lot of dinner-table conversations that would be really revolutionary at a grassroots level. But we were up against a very popular two-term incumbent. And we played to win, but if you'd asked me on day one whether I thought we would win, I probably would've said that was unlikely.
And actually I just had the incredible honor of returning to Salt Lake and speaking at the unveiling of her official portrait that will hang in the city building there forever. And I just think about how incredible it will be that little kids will tour that facility and see this gay woman who is mayor of that city. I get chills thinking about it.
Grant Wahl:
That's so cool. And I also wanted to ask about a couple other things. One, the Obama administration, what did you do? How did you get involved with that?
Lindsay Barenz:
So I was a White House Fellow. That is a program that was started by the Johnson Administration during the Vietnam War when government service was not a very popular idea. And the idea was to bring professionals who are mid-career and also service members into the administration at a very high level. So we sort of worked directly with a cabinet member or an agency head and teach them about government, public policy and leadership.
So when I applied for that program, everybody told me, "It's really competitive, don't bother." And speaking of really arduous interview processes, that was the most complex, difficult interview process I've ever been a part of, because the president appoints a commission and the commissioners are the ones who select the fellows. And my year, Tom Brokaw was a commissioner. And so I was being interviewed by Tom Brokaw and I was like, "This is so weird."
But anyway, again, when people tell me I can't do something, all that means to me is that I for sure can do it. So, yeah. I was in this very fancy fellowship. We got to meet all these fancy people and have lunch with all the cabinet secretaries and the president and the first lady and the vice president, and do lots of cool stuff. The coolest of which was flying onto and off of an aircraft carrier, which is truly amazing. So, yeah. That was a lot of fun. I worked at the White House Office of Management and Budget and learned a lot and had a wonderful experience. And I highly recommend that program, and we need more women and people of color to apply to it. So if anybody's interested about that program, hit me up on LinkedIn, because I'm happy to chat with you about it.
Grant Wahl:
And you also worked for the Washington Spirit. And last year in particular was a year of extremes, I guess is the best way to put it. On the field, the team won the league title. So many impressive things happening with the players on that team. And then there were all sorts of abuse stories coming out of the team too, stories connected to the then coach, Richie Burke, stories connected to the then ownership that is no longer the ownership of the team. What was your experience like inside of all that?
Lindsay Barenz:
First, shout-out to the players and the staff at the Washington Spirit. As you mentioned, they overcame incredible challenges to put on a very successful year of soccer and to win the NWSL championship, which is incredible. So just all honor and credit to those people, both on the field and the staff, because I loved working there with those people.
On the other hand, I did see a lot of things at the Spirit that I thought were very bad, and I did speak up about those things and I was fired by [Steve] Baldwin, and I do consider that a badge of honor, and I am very glad that the ownership of that team has changed hands.
Grant Wahl:
What can you tell us about Michele Kang? Because she seems very impressive. I'd love to get her on the show at some point. She ended up becoming the owner of the team and outdoing the person who just bought Chelsea. What can you tell me about her?
Lindsay Barenz:
Oh, gosh. I feel like I shouldn't speak for Michele because she's so incredible, and you absolutely should have her on your show because her background is just so incredible. An immigrant to this country, an entrepreneur, a passionate defender of women's rights and equality and that they should be treated with respect. And I just am so glad that she's taken over ownership of that club.
Grant Wahl:
And let's bring it back just to wrap up here in terms of Oakland Roots, Oakland Soul. What are you wanting to achieve there in the coming years?
Lindsay Barenz:
The thing we want to achieve with the Oakland Roots and Oakland Soul is that we want to be a club that is financially sustainable, environmentally sustainable, all while living our values of health, equity and happiness. And we want to support Oakland in achieving its ambitions, but also be a model for sports clubs around the world that you can do well by doing good. And I know that's a little bit of a trite phrase that gets overused, but we are seeing real success in being true to our values.
And I'll just give one small example, which is that Senator Ted Cruz used one of our gifs on his Twitter timeline, which is extremely offensive to us because he doesn't stand for our values. And Edreece, the aforementioned genius CMO of our club, said, "Can I respond to this?" And honestly, I didn't really think about it for even half a second. I said, "Absolutely." And he did so in a way that I thought was totally appropriate.
And I think ... Well, I know it's the most viral tweet we've ever had, but I think there are people who sort of questioned why we did that. And it's like, "No, you're just not getting it. If you have any doubts about why we did that, then I don't think you're really understanding what it is that we stand for here."
We are about racial and gender equity. We are about being an anti-racist organization. We want to have a women's team that is treated with respect and dignity, the same as our men's team. And we want to be a club that is inclusive for the LGBTQ community, for all racial and ethnic backgrounds in Oakland, able-bodied and differently abled. We want everyone to be in our club and to feel like soccer is the game for them, because I really believe in the power of soccer to contribute to the health, equity and happiness of the world and here in Oakland. So we want to be a soccer club that is both financially viable and sustainable, but also that does good in the world, and that's our ambition.
Grant Wahl:
Lindsay Barenz is the president of the Oakland Roots and Oakland Soul, which is launching its crest this Thursday on June 23, the 50th anniversary of Title IX. Lindsay, thanks for coming on the show.
Lindsay Barenz:
Thank you. It's my pleasure.
I’m having a problem with your podcast subjects. I’m almost 80 have been in USA for 41 years and have followed soccer religiously since then. I only recognize the names of about 50% of your interviewees. Need more old school NASL veteran stories.