The Interview: Kelsey Trainor
The Interview: Kelsey Trainor
The Lawyer and Women's Sports Advocate on the USWNT Players' $24 Million Settlement with U.S. Soccer
I have been wanting to have Kelsey Trainor on my podcast for a long time. She’s one of those people who always seem to be doing interesting things in the sports space, and she’s a lawyer, so the occasion of the historic $24 million settlement between the USWNT players and U.S. Soccer seemed like a terrific reason to set up an interview.
The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.
Grant Wahl:
Our guest now is Kelsey Trainor. She's a lawyer, producer, writer and women's sports advocate who is the Vice President of Business Affairs at Gaming Society. She also designed those shirts that say Invest in Women, Pay Women, Hire Women. You can find her on Twitter at @ktrain_11. Kelsey, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on the show.
Kelsey Trainor:
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Grant Wahl:
We've got a lot to talk about this week. You're a lawyer, you have followed very closely for years the U.S. women's national team's gender discrimination case against U.S. Soccer, which had a huge moment this past week when they announced a $24 million settlement contingent upon getting a CBA done. That deadline for the CBA is March 31. In your opinion, how historic is this announcement and why?
Kelsey Trainor:
It's absolutely fantastic. It is historic. We're going to look back on this in history, I think, the same way we look back on Billie Jean King and the women of tennis getting their contracts and playing for a dollar. I think it has that same equivalence in the women's sports space. Why? Because you have women who came together and fought for a very, very long time. The first filing for this was in 2016.
And they used their voices and their positions to effectuate change against a massive organization, a massive governing body. That's hard. I probably could not have done it. And so I think historically the significance is going to be remembered as the time that women stopped accepting piecemeal progress and bread crumbs, and really started going after the full meal.
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Grant Wahl:
Do you have any concerns that the CBA will get done, because this settlement is contingent upon that happening?
Kelsey Trainor:
My instinct as a lawyer is that they would not, the players of the U.S. women's national team and [U.S. Soccer president] Cindy Parlow Cone, would not have gone on the record, would not have gone on national television to really vouch for this if they did not think that the CBA was going to get done and it was going to be ratified. That would be a huge miss.
It's almost like all of this effort and press and everything that was gained by this would be worth absolutely nothing. And so I think there's a very good chance that that gets done. And already just by coming up with that figure, $24 million, you've regained trust between the U.S. women's national team and U.S. Soccer. So I absolutely think that there's a good chance that it gets done by the deadline.
Grant Wahl:
Now another big part of this settlement agreement includes something U.S. Soccer has been saying for a while that it wants now. That it will equalize prize money, including World Cup prize money, between the U.S. women's national team and the U.S. men's national team. Do you think the U.S. men's national team, which is trying to negotiate its own CBA right now, will go along with that?
Kelsey Trainor:
Again, my instinct is yes. I think if they don't, I think they're putting themselves in the U.S. Soccer position of losing in the court of public opinion. From the looks of everything and from whisperings behind the scenes, it appears that the men are in support of everything that the women have been doing. I know there were times where it felt like they weren't as vocal, but obviously they were negotiating and still negotiating their own CBA.
And so I think maybe the writing's on the wall that in spite of the fact that men's soccer globally makes way more money than women’s soccer, that the U.S. women's national team has been historically the success of U.S. Soccer. And so I think if they don't agree to that, there's going to be another massive battle. And I wouldn't want to put myself in that position.
Grant Wahl:
At times during this case, and you alluded to this, the U.S. men's national team Players Association, not the individual men's players themselves, has issued statements of support for the women's national team. Did you buy those statements at face value? And a couple of times over the years, even a few women's players had sort of called out the U.S. men, saying that, "None of you specifically came out publicly and supported us. It was just what a lawyer was saying with your players' association." What's your stance on that?
Kelsey Trainor:
I think I actually wrote an article about it for The Equalizer. I think to some extent there was a little bit of posturing there. They were negotiating, and still are, their own CBA. And so under the old structure, if the women negotiated a CBA, that would be good for them, because then they would go higher than those numbers. It would give the men's national team a really good baseline of what they should be working off of. And so obviously they're going to want to support the women getting paid as much as possible, because the history and the standard had been that's the baseline, and then let's go above and beyond that.
So I think there was a bit of posturing, but to the defense of the players individually, as a lawyer, you're not supposed to speak, you're not supposed to say things. And so I'm sure there was a lot of guidance there from the players' association and what you can or can't say publicly. So yeah, I think there was a bit of posturing. But I'm also not going to downgrade or deny that I'm sure there's support there.
Grant Wahl:
Why do you think U.S. Soccer settled in the end? In a court of law, the U.S. women's national team had had a judge dismiss their equal pay claims in a summary judgment. They were appealing that ruling, but it was still a defeat. And I'm wondering, is this a situation where the court of public opinion ended up swaying U.S. Soccer's actions in the end?
Kelsey Trainor:
I think there's a few reasons. One, I was very surprised from just a legal perspective that that was dismissed by the judge in May of 2020. From a comparison under the Equal Pay Act, I was just very surprised that a judge would go to that extent and dismiss the case and wouldn't let it go before a jury. And so I think there was a possible chance that on appeal this could be brought back. So that's one factor.
Obviously we have the U.S. Soccer presidential election coming up. I think that was another factor. You had a March 7 deadline for a hearing for the appeals, and then you have the March 31 deadline for the CBA. So I think there's a number of things of why the timing happened. But I think I've said from the beginning that I always saw this settling because the $67 million number that the women sought originally was high.
And I don't mean that they shouldn't have been paid that, but that's just a high number for a lawsuit of this type, and really a high number to get out of any organization in a lawsuit. So I always did think maybe a $20 to $40 million range was the possible scenario. It's a little bit of a shame that so much money was spent on legal fees. I'll say that as a lawyer, it's a real shame that the lawyers got a bunch of money instead of just settling this early on. But I think some attitudes and perspectives had to change for this to happen.
Grant Wahl:
You mentioned the U.S. Soccer presidential election. It's March 5, very soon here. Cindy Parlow Cone is running for reelection against her predecessor, Carlos Cordeiro. How much do you think the timing of this settlement announcement had something to do with the timing of the U.S. Soccer election? And do you think this helps Cindy Parlow Cone? Because that's sort of the obvious conclusion, and yet I don't know. Part of me was wondering if some of these U.S. Soccer voters might be unhappy about the amount of money this $24 million is that’s going to come out of U.S. Soccer.
Kelsey Trainor:
I think Cindy had said this on the broadcast the other night. I think they worked it out that this was going to potentially be paid over four years to the players. So that's one aspect that maybe qualms some fears of some voters. I think that her being in charge and getting this case settled was the knockout punch for the presidential election. I'm not sure, I don't have any insight into this, but I do think if you had the Meg Rapinoes and the Alex Morgans, I do think when they saw Carlos running for election that could have potentially been also a fire on their end to continue, because it's not like they weren't already in the process of negotiating.
But to just continue really harping on that and trying to see if they could get a deal done. Because you've even seen sponsors come out. I think it was Deloitte that really reiterated that their interest and support of U.S. Soccer is going to be contingent on seeing progress. And so in spite of maybe other parts of the world going backwards in progress, hopefully that's not something that's going to be happening with U.S. Soccer.
Grant Wahl:
I was wondering when this was announced, the settlement, what Hope Solo might say publicly. And she obviously has her own legal case against U.S. Soccer that is still alive as far as I know. And then she came out with a very sort of Hope Solo-like strong statement saying she was not celebrating this agreement at all and that the U.S. players could have gotten more and were even “selfish” about the case, was a word that she used. What do you think was going on there? And what are your thoughts on Solo's statement?
Kelsey Trainor:
I have a few thoughts. I don't think I generally agree with her statement as a whole. There are parts of it, that yes, this is a win, it's a celebration, but it's not the whole meal. It's still less than what the players deserve. I think maybe it's a lack of being able to see a different perspective that she can't see that this fight, that maybe not everybody wants to fight it forever. And so there's many reasons that go into settling a case, it's kind of a cost benefit analysis and really what is important to you. So I don't think everything she said was wrong in principle when it comes to her total opinion on the equal pay issue. And I think to still feel mad and frustrated about it entirely is understandable.
But obviously, I don't think I agree to the extent of some of the words she used about some of the players. But again, I was not in those locker rooms. I was not a part of the U.S. women's national team during any of that time. So I don't know that my opinion on any of that stuff matters or is relevant.
Grant Wahl:
Do you have any idea what might happen to Solo's own case now that this other one has been settled?
Kelsey Trainor:
I believe my last update on it was that everything for Solo's case was stayed. So it was paused pending the resolution of this case, just because they decided not to merge them. But because there was a common interest, you're not going to waste the court's time by essentially litigating something twice. So that was the last update, I haven't checked the docket to see where it's at now or what the next steps will be. But I think once that gets resolved... Obviously the courthas to approve the settlement because it's a class action. But once that gets resolved, I think we'll see Hope's case opening up, and we'll see what happens there. It might have a very similar path or pattern, or it might be completely different. It's in a different district in California than the majority of the U.S. women's national team case. So we'll see.
Grant Wahl:
Megan Rapinoe was very pointed as well, saying the next big step is to go after FIFA and its huge—and still growing, by the way—prize-money gap between the men's and women's world cups. What do you think could actually put pressure on FIFA in that area?
Kelsey Trainor:
There's a deep, deep sigh there, because this to me is the larger issue of just the lack of respect and investment that women's sports get compared to men. I do think the pressure has to come from a sponsor perspective. Money talks. There's got to be some discussion and conversation about equity. At what point is it enough? At what point do we decide that, listen, men's sports historically have had hundreds of years head start than women's sports. And so you're never going to get the ROI, you're never going to get the return on investment, if you don't invest, if you don't start evening some things out. So I think it's a much larger concept and conversation. But realistically, it's sponsors who have those values and put that pressure on it, for sure.
Grant Wahl:
I'm curious to get your take on this because I've noticed another viewpoint from even some I would call progressive folks in the soccer world, a lot in Europe about women's soccer and investment in women's soccer. And so these aren't FIFA people, these are people I would consider to be thoughtful. And sometimes what they say is more money should be going to investment in increasing global opportunity for women's soccer, because there are large parts of the world where women don't even play soccer or can't play soccer yet. That the money would be better suited going toward that than to more FIFA women's World Cup prize money. And I'm wondering what you think of that.
Kelsey Trainor:
My immediate answer is there's enough money to do all of that. There is enough money in soccer generally, globally, to do all of that and then some. So I think it's kind of a red herring argument that you have to pick one or the other. Because we don't see that in men's sports: we have to choose. No, the NBA is going to continue doing everything in the NBA, but they're also creating leagues elsewhere. They're also doing everything else. And so I think it's again the perspective of who's in charge and what are their values and what are they going to do when they have the power and the money to be able to do all those things?
Grant Wahl:
So U.S. Soccer has had several big lawsuits that it has been involved in in recent years and has spent, as you mentioned, millions of dollars in legal fees during that time. Why do you think the federation has had so many lawsuits?
Kelsey Trainor:
Quite honestly, I think it's been not who from a naming names perspective, but I think it's been who's been in charge. Almost the old guard, and what they think U.S. Soccer should be and should represent. And I think the way of doing things has been very old boys club. And whether purposefully or not, there's been some built-in misogynistic tendencies. And so in the United States a lot of misogynistic tendencies are illegal. There's laws that come in and say, "Hey, you can't do that. You can't say that, you can't pay somebody less for equal work." And so I think when that kind of mentality permeates leadership from top down... we can't forget about the youth soccer stratosphere and the money making that plays into that.
But yeah, I think it's been a reckoning that's been needed. And I think we're starting to see a little bit of different perspectives infiltrating U.S. Soccer and sports in general. Just having so many issues of harassment and abuse and so many lawsuits. Who has the time? The money is so much better spent elsewhere. And so hopefully I think we're starting to see that a little bit.
Grant Wahl:
Now, before we sign off here, I have a couple of questions I want to ask you just about, you've had a very interesting career just from following you on Twitter. What are you doing now in your new job, and what are some of the things you've done in the past?
Kelsey Trainor:
So currently I've just started recently as the VP of Business Affairs at Gaming Society. We're a platform that really educates and makes betting and gaming more accessible. There's a multi-billion-dollar market in sports betting and gaming. And obviously betting is the ultimate form of gamification. And we have a goal to make it more inclusive, make it more accessible and to bring some of that money into the women's sports space, to literally bet on women. And so we have an exclusive license with the WNBPA for that phrase, Bet on Women. And it's been fun. We're doing some really cool stuff that should be coming up. That hopefully it's the mentality of, in order to bet on women, you have to know who they are. And so we're telling the stories, we're getting people involved in gaming and fantasy stuff.
I never cared about any NFL team that was not the Philadelphia Eagles until I started playing fantasy football. And I was watching every game because I needed to make sure that my team was winning that week. So we're really trying to tap into that on the women's sports side of things.
And then my career has taken many turns. I started out in corporate insurance. And then I had a friend who was the executive producer of the show Blue Bloods, who called me up one day and said, "Come work for me." And I did. I went from having an assistant to being one. And I worked for him on that show, it's on CBS. And I got a crash course in the entertainment industry. And it was cool because I got to use that platform to continue working with athletes and actors and people that I knew, helping them from the legal side of things, but always kind of liked PR and branding and all that fun stuff.
So I did that for a bit. And then I ended up working in TV and production and media. I feel like I have a full circle space. I also coached college basketball before I went to law school. So I feel liked I've tried to merge everything that I really enjoy, sports, entertainment, women's sports. I've tried to figure out a way to merge all of that into a career, that is. And then I'm sure you see it, a time or two I spew things out on Twitter and see what comes back to me.
Grant Wahl:
In my previous life. I was a college basketball writer in addition to being a soccer writer. I went full-time soccer in 2009 as the sport got bigger and I really got into soccer even more. But one person I had gotten to know pretty well covering college basketball was Jay Bilas at ESPN. And he and I even did back-and-forth columns with each other that we somehow got ESPN and Sports Illustrated to simultaneously publish. And it was a lot of fun. And occasionally there'll be a tweet that you have a connection to Jay Bilas. What is that connection?
Kelsey Trainor:
Yeah. Listen, I'm like Jay Bilas's number one fan. He is just such a good human. My connection is that when I was working at my previous job for a media company, I was given a platform to write a column and do a podcast. And I'm sitting there at work and I'm watching TV, and I see Jay Bilas is on ESPN. And I'm talking to my colleague who did this with me. And I was like, "Man, that'd be really cool if we could get Jay." So I cold emailed him and got a response at a commercial break. And he was like, "I'm actually in New York city today. Sure. I'll come up and do your podcast in four hours." Turns out my boss and him, Dan Abrams was my boss. They both went to Duke, so there was a connection there. But Jay came on the podcast and then me and my colleagues had a chance to grab a drink with him after.
And since that day, just no questions asked, he's been such a huge advocate for me. I can shoot him a text and ask him for advice or send him something that I've been working on. He'll share it. So yeah, there's top-five people for me in life, and Jay Bilas is one of them. He's a good person. And people forget that he still is a lawyer. He still essentially practices. And so I always say, I kind of wanted to be the woman version of Jay Bilas, to have that insight and explain things from a legal perspective that is not so boring and bogged down.
Grant Wahl:
Kelsey Trainor is a lawyer, producer, writer and women's sports advocate, who's also the Vice President of Business Affairs at Gaming Society. You can find her on Twitter at @ktrain_11. Kelsey, thanks for coming on the show.
Kelsey Trainor:
Thanks for having me.