The Interview: John Harkes

The Hall of Famer on being the Greenville Triumph's head coach and sporting director, the USMNT, being the first USMNT Premier League player, the successful Harkes children and much more

Harkes is now the head coach and sporting director of USL League One’s Greenville Triumph (Photo by Andrew Katsampes/ISI Photos/Getty Images)

Several years had passed since my last interview with Hall of Famer John Harkes, so it was great to catch up recently with the head coach and sporting director of the Greenville Triumph. We addressed a lot of topics in this interview, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

---

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is John Harkes, the National Soccer Hall of Famer who played in two World Cups. He was the first American to play in the English Premier League and won two MLS Cup titles with D.C. United. He's now the head coach and sporting director of the Greenville Triumph. John, It's great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

John Harkes:

My pleasure, Grant. It's great to see you as well. It's been a while, so I'm glad that we can find some time to reconnect.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah, me too. I was thinking back to our first interviews in the ‘90s, I think …

John Harkes:

Right. When you were 13. I was 12.

Grant Wahl:

Exactly.

John Harkes:

That's right.

Grant Wahl:

I want to start by getting your take on the U.S. men's national team, which has qualified for the World Cup. How are you feeling about the team these days?

“Qualifying for the '90 World Cup, playing in the World Cup, was fantastic, but going to Sheffield Wednesday on a trial basis and explaining to them that I already played in the World Cup before I was a pro. And they were looking at me like, he's crazy.” — John Harkes

John Harkes:

I feel great, actually. I think just such a great feeling to know that we're going back to the World Cup, where there was an absence, and that's the number one thing. I think sometimes, whether it be media or fans or even other coaches, get caught up with critiquing too much instead of an understanding that it's a big challenge through the World Cup qualifying process and the rotation of players, players coming in from different countries, different styles of play.

And you're expecting them all to come together and everyone snaps your finger and it's perfect. It never works like that. So I'm really excited that they've qualified. At the end of the day, as you support them, we keep pushing forward and let's hope that they go into the World Cup with positive attitudes and a lot of confidence.

Grant Wahl:

As someone who's been through World Cups. Would you have any advice for Gregg Berhalter as he manages things over the next five months to the World Cup?

---

GrantWahl.com is a reader-supported soccer newsletter. Quality journalism requires resources. The best way to support me and my work is by taking out a paid subscription now. Free 7-day trials are available.

---

John Harkes:

I mean, look, I think everybody wants to do that Monday morning quarterbacking. Everybody wants to have their opinions in the game, and I've spoken to Gregg numerous times about players and personnel and style of play and things like that. I think Gregg does a great job. I think the coaching staff does a good job. 

Any advice? Probably not. Just stay even-keeled through the whole process, because there's so many emotions that go up and down and the players, a lot of them are young and they're looking to the manager to see how he responds in really stressful situations. So if he can keep himself even-keeled throughout the process, that's more than half the battle right there.

Grant Wahl:

You're obviously a coach and sporting director these days. You're not calling U.S. games on television right now, though you did in the past. Do you ever miss doing the U.S. games on TV?

John Harkes:

I do. I've had some great experiences and learned a lot through that process, whether I be with Ian Darke, Martin Tyler, JP Dellacamera, Dave Johnson at D.C. United as well. Some quality guys that I've worked with. And it's great to see their process and the way that they approach the games and the research they do. 

Being prepared is number one, and that's the number one thing. So from my perspective, it was like, how do we get to a point where these guys are ... not only are you loving the game, but you want to call the game. But at the same time, you also want to be able to represent the team well, and it's not about you. It's the same with coaching. It's as soon as you remove the ego, you start to discover your purpose in the right way.

And so for me, I miss calling the games, and it was fun. And I learned a lot. It's the closest sometimes that you can get to the pitch when you're not a player or a coach. But I do love coaching. I really do. I'm not afraid to have a side-hustle doing some games here and there. I'll say that. I'll just put that out there. But I do love the opportunity to teach, and seeing the growth in the players, the way that they respond to different adversities well, the way they get challenged and the way they come together and collaborate as a team is the best feeling in the world for a coach. So I love that side of the game. I really do.

Grant Wahl:

You're in your fourth season as the Greenville coach and sporting director. You've been to the league final three times, won it once. What's it been like there? How would you describe the experience?

John Harkes:

It's been a tremendous experience, actually. A lot of growth, and you get thrown into being a manager and you take on the responsibility as a sporting director as well. So I'll explain a little bit the way we approach that when you're building a club from scratch. The coaching part and the relationships I've built and the trust with different players and coaches and leagues, and I'm a soccer junkie. So I watch all soccer, and discovery of players coming out of college that don't make the MLS draft. That's what happens for the division three, for the USL League One. But taking pride and taking on a challenge and building something from scratch is excellent. It really does. And it teaches you a lot about yourself and the way that you handle that through the process.

So sporting director, what does year one look like? What does year two, year three look like? What does year four look like? Where do we need to be with our brand? Where do we need to be in terms of building a stadium? Where do we need to be in terms of representing the local community and doing it the right way with partnerships? And so from that perspective, it's been fun to learn both. And I love it. It's been a lot of success early.

We've done a lot in a short period of time. I have a tremendous staff that's with me. You're only as good as the people around you. And we want to push for more. We want to win as many titles as we can, but we also want to coexist with development and pushing players up to the top levels. And through that process, you start to really enjoy it. The connection to the players is fantastic. Being able to manage the front office and manage up with the president and the league, our club owner has been great. Good relationships there, and yeah, I've enjoyed it. It's been a good journey so far. I'm not sure where it's going to take me, but it's been a great journey.

Grant Wahl:

I guess that was a question, because you've built this from scratch. And so, I don't want to just assume that there's something else you want to go and do, but do you have any interest in potentially coaching in MLS at some point?

John Harkes:

Of course. Yeah. I mean, to not be ambitious and not to want to challenge yourself is ... what's the purpose of living? You’ve got to be able to take risks, and you’ve got to be able to put yourself in the framework to say, can I get challenged right here? And yeah, I feel like I'm up for that, to be honest with you. This has been a great learning curve for me and a good platform to kind of find my way as a coach. And you bring the leadership part of it, the teaching part of it, the aspect, the authentic kind of everyday caring atmosphere for the players, and then they feel safe, and they give you the best. So that emotional kind of, I guess, investment in the guys and in the club itself has been great.

But look, if there's an opportunity that I can go to MLS, or even if we can get our club to the Championship level and coach at that next level, it would be fantastic too. And those stepping stone processes along the way. I'm not opposed to going overseas and coaching. You see a lot of great coaches like Jesse Marsch doing well, taking risks at different clubs and different leagues around the world. I'm really proud of him and the work that he did at Leeds going there under a lot of stressful situations there and expectations, and he's done well. So the more that the American coaches are having success overseas in those leagues as well, it creates an opportunity for us to be looked at, I think. So why not take a challenge if you get one?

Grant Wahl:

What should we know about John Harkes, the coach, that maybe we didn't know about since we focused on John Harkes, the player, over the years?

John Harkes: 

I mean, I think it's understanding your core values for the team. Setting out a plan. What's that structure look like on an everyday basis? Develop a philosophy in the game for your coaching style. I play with possession and build out of the back with a purpose. Our teams do have the ability to switch style of play during the game because we train that way as well.

So whether we come out in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 or even playing three in the back with a 3-4-3, we train on it. So to me it's about doing the work. Communication is key. Being able to be up-front and communicating exactly what the plan is for the guys, but then leaving enough creativity and room for them to just show you who they are, to go out and enjoy themselves and take some risks as well.

So you’ve got to find that balance as a coach and still win the game, which is hard. But I love that. I love the challenges that you face during that process. It's great. Because you never fail. If you're trying things, you're not failing. If you're not trying, then you're failing in life. And so I always tell the guys like, "Hey look, we put ourselves out there and maybe the result didn't work for us, but what did we learn about ourselves? And let's find solutions here to go forward." 

And that's the number one thing. As long as the guys are okay, you learn and you reflect on what you didn't do well, but let's see if we can kind of move forward. What are the new objectives in our team now? So that's kind of me in a nutshell.

Grant Wahl:

I know your children, Ian and Lauren, are both in soccer as well, as our listeners may know too. For those who don't know, could you explain what they're doing?

John Harkes:

Yeah, sure. Cindi and I are very fortunate, and we're very proud of our kids, and we raised them with tough love, and we also know as parents that they're just passing through you. It's not like you're ... you're not raising them to be like you. You want them to be able to make decisions on their own and be independent. So Ian's been over in Scotland at Dundee United for three years now.

He is currently out of contract and they want re-sign him. He's getting some interest from other clubs in England as well. A couple in Belgium and one in Germany. So he is getting some options, which are great. And he's in a tough place right now where he’s got to make some decisions. Dundee United has been fantastic for him. It's been a great club. And through that journey, I've watched him grow as a player. He's become more aggressive and more assertive.

He's definitely going forward a lot more. And he became player of the year for their club this year, which was great. Great achievement for him. And just seeing that he's showing up against Celtic and Rangers, the big clubs, scoring goals and scoring goals in the derby and everything shows how much he's enjoying it and the growth, but he's put a lot of work in there.

Lauren, our middle child, is playing in Denmark as a pro as well with Aalborg. It's her first year as a pro. So she's learned a lot, and she's enjoyed that as well. The culture there has been fantastic for her and the process of being in a kind of new environment, a new club, on the women's side and growing that from scratch and making it more professional has been interesting, too. So she's taken on a leadership role as a foreign player, and it's been good for her.

So wishing her all the best, and not sure where she's going to take that. She's been offered to stay there, but she's actually getting some offers too in Scotland, which is interesting because not only is Ian there, but Ian's wife, Sarah, plays for Celtic women as a pro. And so it could be all reunited there in Scotland. We'll see.

John Harkes:

And then Lily's our youngest, who just graduated Elon University in Burlington, North Carolina, last week and a political science major. She has two minors and she's been accepted to Oxford next year.

Grant Wahl:

Wow.

John Harkes:

So yeah. She's academically off the charts and a really smart kid, and we're just proud of her. And she played soccer all four years at Elon and enjoyed that and had a great balance there. And I think she still wants to play soccer at Oxford if she gets a club team over there, but all three of our kids might be in Europe within three, four months. And so Cindi and I are like, what are we doing? What's happening? But again, we wish them all the best. We're very proud of them, and there's still going to be a lot of challenges ahead of them. So as they grow as individuals, we're just here to support them and guide them when we can.

Grant Wahl:

Well, congrats to you and your family on all of that, and my apologies to Lilly for not including her in my original question. So good to get an update.

John Harkes:

No, she's good. She's good. She's the blonde one. She's the third child. She's got that third-child approach to life. She's good. She's good.

Grant Wahl:

I want to pull back a little bit because one thing that's fascinating to me these days is that so many new U.S. national team fans have been created over the past 10 years that a lot of them weren't following when you were doing big things starting in the 1990s in your career. And you and your contemporaries obviously created a lot of new fans yourselves in the ‘90s, but do you run into that at all? Where you meet soccer fans here who aren't really aware of what you achieved in your career?

John Harkes:

Yeah, I think you do. But I think that's also part of the challenge in the game. I mean, you've covered the game for a long time, Grant, at the highest level. But you've also gone into the lower levels of the history of the game. And I think it's important that people continue to take accountability at all levels in the game of growing the game. It's a big responsibility, and that's the fan base too. Now you're starting to see the market now, the way the game is getting exposed is tremendous. Like you know, we all talk about, wow, the game's so small. Well, it is small. People are connected everywhere to the game.

And a lot of it is like technology today. You can watch a game on your phone. You can watch a game on Apple+, ESPN+, Paramount, whatever it may be. Fox, it doesn't matter. It's everywhere. And so now it's at a point where you're making these choices what you're going to watch on the day when you've got maybe 14 games to watch in one day. So I think it's brilliant. It grows the game, and as you know, it goes up and then it comes back down and it goes back up again. So it's cyclical.

And for the individuals, though, to take on the responsibility to grow the game in the right way, that means respect the game, respect your national teams, respect your club teams that are local for you. Go and support them. Don't say you support Sheffield Wednesday or West Ham or anything overseas, or Liverpool, before you support your local community team. You should support them there. And I think that's something that's starting to change here and take off, especially with USL. USL, with the three divisions right now, is really growing faster than anything. And to have a foundation there, a strong foundation of growth, is fantastic. So the more people get involved with that, the better it's going to be.

Grant Wahl:

You are from Kearny, New Jersey. There's a really good documentary film that my friend Tom McCabe was part of about Kearny called Soccertown, USA, that people should see if you haven't. How would you describe growing up in Kearny and that sort of soccer hotbed community there?

John Harkes:

Wow, I think it was probably a consistently challenging experience. I think you were always being tested in Kearny. If you were a soccer player at the age of four, you were being tested by the kids that were six and seven and eight. It was always who came before you. And the history of the game was certainly important to them back in the day. And whether they were hosting teams from Scotland or Hungary, the international inclusion that's there and the social clubs that are there. You were raised as if you were in Europe, to be honest with you. And I love that. I love that. So it was more of a world kind of cerebral view of football, and also of life. It made you hungry to think what's it like, not just in Kearny, like we thought soccer was played with passion as it is in Kearny. And Tom McCabe captured that beautifully, as you mentioned.

We thought it was like that everywhere. And then as we traveled, as we got older, 12, 13, 14, and then tryouts with the state team and regional team and national teams eventually, thank God. And we were fortunate enough to stay alive and survive tough areas, tough places to live, hardworking blue collar, but lucky enough that our parents gave us the love of the game, the freedom to discover who we were, and live off the streets at times and play soccer all day long in pickup games and kind of find our way. 

I thought it was amazing. You really reflect back on that time and you're just like, wow. We're fortunate because it was a tough area. You had to survive. There was also, we'd be remiss if we didn't mention the drugs and alcohol that was there.

And then the gangs and the violence at times too. It was so close to Newark and Harrison, but I think it raised you tough, but it also raised you to be grateful for what you had. You didn't need much, you know what I mean? You don't need a lot. So I think I still carry that with me. I don't need a lot. Let's just keep going. So I'm very fortunate, and I was very fortunate to have so many great older players around me, including my brother, Jimmy, and so many other great players before me that we could actually study and say, hey, maybe we could be like them one day.

It helped having the New York Cosmos 20 minutes away where we could be a ballboy at times and where you can aspire to play there. And say, until they folded in '84, that was devastating. It was my junior year of high school. I was like, oh my God, what am I going to do now? So it was just great to grow up in that hotbed of soccer in New Jersey. It really was.

Grant Wahl:

You were the first American, as I mentioned in the introduction, to play in the Premier League, when you joined Sheffield Wednesday. It's so easy to watch the Premier League in the U.S. now. It wasn't back then. What was your experience in the Premier League like in those days? In what ways was it similar to today, and in what ways was it different?

John Harkes:

It was a tremendous experience, and what an opportunity to get over there and to go on trial. I think the crazy thing was that I aspired to be a pro as we were qualifying for the '90 World Cup. And we didn't really have a top-level league at that time. We talk about the A league back in the day and the USL leagues. And I played for the Albany Capitals a few games here and there, and flying up on a Thursday to train on a Friday and play a game on a Saturday. And then back down to Tampa or Miami to train with the national team for a two-week camp. We were doing what we could to push ourselves. We didn't need anybody to challenge us at all. That's what I think made that generation of players really hungry, really hungry, was we wanted to be respected, but we also wanted to get back to that world stage.

And so qualifying for the '90 World Cup, playing in the World Cup, was fantastic, but going to Sheffield Wednesday on a trial basis and explaining to them that I already played in the World Cup before I was a pro. And they were looking at me like, he's crazy. But it was a great experience. Breaking down, I guess, the stereotypical barriers of an American trying to make it in the English leagues when there was only three foreigners per team at that time. And the old division one before it became the Premier League in '92 was interesting. And Sheffield Wednesday, at a time where Ron Atkinson was a big manager. He was already at Manchester United. He came to Wednesday. They got relegated two years prior. And then when I came to them, they were in the old division two looking to get promoted back up.

And to go through that experience in seven months, to score a goal of the year in England, to get to Wembley and win against Manchester United in a League Cup final. If you told me that, I would say, that's the worst Hollywood film I've ever seen. Not going to happen. Keep dreaming, son, but it did happen. And so I was very fortunate. Had great players, great coaches, a lot of support from my family and from Cindi at the time, because I remember calling her where I was upset. I was over there for a long period of time. They offered me a very low deal, very low deal. And I was upset and on the phone, and she was like stick it out. You can make it, you’ve got to keep going. And I did. And so I was very fortunate to have those people support me during that process.

And I loved it. And the Premier League now, it's blown out of proportion. Grant, you know this. I mean, the game has grown tremendously. The players are strong. They're fast. Has it changed in terms of mentality and intelligence level? Probably not. But everything's just done a little bit quicker. A little bit faster, and I think that part of it is, there's more resources there to help the players recover. There's better scientific approach to the game in terms of recovery and looking after themselves more. And I love it. I love watching the games. It's fantastic to relive and go back to the old clubs and West Ham and the Derby Counties and all of that time period was brilliant.

Grant Wahl:

So you had to count as a foreign player. I know you have sort of like Scottish roots, right? You weren't able to get a passport and count as a domestic?

John Harkes:

Well, so it's funny. I was just telling that story today to one of the new players we have here on trial ... that I had signed as a foreign player, yet when they found out all my Scottish background and everything, then we went through the process and I got my UK passport probably about five months later. And then they changed my, I guess, what I was at that point, my status, to the international side. So I became like a UK player there at that time. So I had dual citizenship.

Grant Wahl:

So you got the hard part done as being like the foreign player on the team with very few foreign slots at first. Interesting.

John Harkes:

Yeah. It was a challenge for sure.

Grant Wahl:

If I had told you back then in the early ‘90s, that soccer in the United States would be where it is today in 2022, and sort of described to you, ‘90s John Harkes, where we are now, would you have been what? Gratified, disappointed, something else?

John Harkes:

Motivated. I would've been inspired, because that was the goal, is to grow the game. We wanted to grow the game. We wanted respect for our country. We wanted respect for our leagues. Being part of Cobi Jones, Alexi Lalas, Eric Wynalda, Balboa, all of those guys, Paul Caligiuri, Christopher Sullivan, the list goes on and on and on. To be part of that beginning stages of building your own league in 1996 is a big responsibility. So to see it come, God, to fruition now, where it is, it's just incredible. I watch games now and I'm just like, wow. You look at a stadium like Austin. And you're like, wow, what the heck is going on here? And even my experience that I had at FC Cincinnati for the first year in the USL, and we grew that fan base.

I remember one of our games was on a midweek rainy night and we had about 17 and a half thousand people there. And I turned to my staff at FC Cincinnati, where are we? What is going on here? And it was amazing to see that growth within that passion and that love from the fan base. And we had such a great year there. It was brilliant to finish third in the league. And so those things, the way you expand the game and the business side of it now, you know it's mainstream, can you get the right ownership in there? You need money to grow.

And so now you've got some of the NFL ownership groups and other people of outside interest coming in and saying, wow, I really want an MLS team. Or, hey, I want a USL Championship team or a USL League One team in my community. And when you do that, now you go again, let's see where we are in another 10 years, which you already know. And you've documented very well. The history of the game is growing tremendously. Let's continue to keep that going at a fast rate.

Grant Wahl:

And I'm continuing to be surprised. I never even thought it was inevitable that soccer would get to where we are now. And so I've stopped making predictions about where soccer will get in America. And I'm just curious to see where the ride takes us, because I don't know the answer.

John Harkes:

How does that feel from your end? I mean, as somebody that's been at the highest level in the media and been able to kind of tell the stories the right way, whether it be from coaches, clubs, towns, players. How has it been for you to see the growth?

Grant Wahl:

It's been amazing. It's funny to me, because I only went full-time soccer in 2009. I started in '96 and I did college basketball and then I did soccer. But after a few years, it's not that I dislike basketball. I just was like, I want to be a full-time soccer writer. I like what's happening. I like telling the stories. I like the sport, but I didn't choose to go full-time soccer because I thought it would get to a certain level in the United States. I just liked it. I like the people. 

And so it's been a nice thing, just personally, to see soccer grow maybe to in the U.S. beyond where I thought it would be now. And so I just feel like there's maybe not even a ceiling at this point, and that's exciting, and being able to continue telling that story has been a blast. So yeah, it's pretty cool actually, when you compare where we are now to the ‘90s.

John Harkes:

Yeah, yeah. I always die with Martin Short. That one line. Welcome to the ‘90s. I'm always going back to the ‘90s and the old school stuff and I'm like, wow, I'm really old. When I coach some of these younger players, I'm like, nevermind, nevermind. But it's great to see even some of our guys here, the younger players, are still researching and looking at the old school game and stuff like that. So it's nice. And like you said, the growth has been tremendous, and you just want to keep that going. And the best thing you can do is to have, as you grow and get bigger, that's where you get more humility and just let it grow. And just say like, it's not about us. Just keep on growing. Let's go. Let's go. Do our job.

Grant Wahl:

No, definitely. Just to finish up here, I guess. You came from this hotbed town, Kearny, New Jersey, that produced several national team players, like Tab Ramos. And why am I blanking? Oh no.

John Harkes:

Tony Meola.

Grant Wahl:

Tony Meola was, yeah, Tony's going to kill me now. But it was a definite hotbed, and I'm wondering, how do we manage this size of this country, the United States, when it comes to finding and developing soccer talent? Because I've had a couple instances in my career. I went to Iceland a few years ago when they were really good. And they actually talked about sort of the virtues of smallness that it allowed everyone to sort of be connected in a way that was tougher in a bigger country. And so when it comes to the United States and the sheer size of it, how do you deal with that?

John Harkes:

Yeah. It's difficult to manage the size of something. The bigger it is, the harder it is to manage because you want to make sure that the communication, everybody's getting the same kind of understanding of how we grow the game. And I was doing a podcast with Kevin Campbell from Arsenal the other day. And I was explaining to him like, well, Kevin, just take this for instance, in Colorado at the U-11 age group, they might be doing eight a side. Whereas in New Jersey, they're doing 11 a side. And so he's like, really, who doesn't govern that? And I'm like, well again, you need leadership across a bigger country. It's such a vast country. It's hard to manage every little state department of what they're doing in youth soccer. So that's where I think the tricky part is, Grant.

I think getting momentum behind the game when you have the size of a country we have is better. That's an advantage, because then you can grow it. But going back to Iceland and your comment there. When you're in a smaller country that you can fit maybe inside of Alabama, it becomes much more manageable. And the communication is clear. We are going to do it this way, and everybody's on the same page. So now you align with that. It's just like certain managers overseas. They take on big clubs. Gasperini takes on Atalanta.

Well, he aligned himself with Bergamo, with the city, the community. How can I manage the toughness and the grittiness of this and what they went through in COVID. All the suffering in COVID, and now how can he come out and be like, we're interchanging. We're overlapping. We're creative when we go forward. But everybody works together as a team. And that represents that community well. So those are the type of things you’ve got to have in terms of the behavior of your club. And I think that if you put it all together like that, eventually it's all going to kind of come together if you can. And that collaboration takes place.

Grant Wahl:

John Harkes is a National Soccer Hall of Famer who is now the head coach and sporting director of the Greenville Triumph. John, thanks for coming on the show.

John Harkes:

My pleasure, Grant. Great to connect with you again. Thanks for having me.