The Interview: Jason and Yeganeh Rezaian
Ahead of USA-Iran at the World Cup, the renowned journalists speak on the context of the Iran protests, how they could affect the World Cup, the latest on women attending stadiums in Iran and more.
I have been looking forward to doing this interview for a while now. Jason and Yeganeh Rezaian are two of the contemporary journalists I most admire and important voices on what’s happening in Iran. This interview got pretty emotional toward the end. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the time they took for this.
The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.
Grant Wahl:
The U.S. meets Iran in the World Cup on November 29, and my guests now are two of the foremost journalists on Iran in the United States, and soccer fans as well. Jason Rezaian is a columnist for the Washington Post, creator of the podcast series 544 Days and the author of Prisoner about his wrongful imprisonment by Iranian authorities from 2014 to 2016 as a political hostage.
Also with us is his wife, Yeganeh Rezaian, who was also imprisoned with Jason for nearly three months, and who has also done extensive journalism on Iran for Bloomberg and other outlets. She has written on women's soccer fans in Iran who have not been allowed to attend games and is now a senior researcher for the Committee to Protect Journalists. It's an honor to have both of you on the podcast. Thank you so much.
Jason Rezaian:
Thank you for having us, Grant.
Yeganeh Rezaian:
Yes, thank you so much for having us. I'm looking forward to our conversation.
Grant Wahl:
It’s just so great to have you both here and I appreciate it. We are a soccer podcast, but we're also a culture podcast, and there's a much wider, much more important context around the U.S. versus Iran game in the World Cup. Would it be possible just to start by explaining to listeners what's happening in Iran right now with protests, and what has led to them?
Yeganeh Rezaian:
Jason, you could do that, and I talk more of soccer.
Jason Rezaian:
So at the moment, we are almost two full months into ongoing protests in Iran that started in late September following the death in custody of a young Iranian woman, Mahsa Amini, who was arrested by what they call the morality police in Iran. But really they are dress-code police that arbitrarily enforce rules about what women can wear in the streets.
She was taken into custody, and some way along the ride to the detention center where she was going to be processed, it appears as though she was savagely beaten by the forces that picked her up, and a few days later after being in a coma she died in a hospital.
The news of that broke, and Iranians have been out in the streets ever since. And I think it's important to say that these protests are led primarily and initially by women, but other marginalized groups in Iranian society, ethnic minorities like the Kurds and the Balochis, Azeris, religious minorities, Sunnis, the LGBTQ community, and others have come out and said, "Hey look, we want equality under this system that has denied us that for 43 years." And so I think that's the context of what's going on.
Grant Wahl:
And Yeganeh, you were born in Iran, you both have lived in Iran. How are you able to cover what's happening in Iran right now from over here in the U.S.?
Yeganeh Rezaian:
Well, as you said, I was born and raised in Iran, so that helps a little bit with the coverage because you understand the mentality of both people, which I'm one of them and also a little bit of the system. Because I grew up in that system, and I'm very well familiar with their brutality. I'm very well familiar with how they deprive people of their very basic rights, including women who have been deprived of their own rights to choose their own outfit, like the very basic right of clothing.
And that helps obviously, but it's not ideal to be far from your homeland and cover it. I'm lucky that these days, my work at the Committee to Protect Journalists lets me focus on one particular beat and only cover that. While obviously as an Iranian, I read and monitor the news of my homeland religiously every morning, all news of my former country, but because my work is very focused on one particular beat, that gives me more and more time and accuracy in terms of doing what I do rather than on major hard news.
Grant Wahl:
And just as a quick follow up, how much do Iranians use social media like Instagram or Twitter or anything else?
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Yeganeh Rezaian:
Oh, that's a very great question. Let me tell you that because Iranians have been historically disconnected by this regime by force from the international community, for years there was a war, so Iranians couldn't really travel. Then there was sanctions, so it was financially difficult for Iranians to travel to outside the world, and because of the hostility that this regime has had with other western countries, there were not usually many foreign tourists who would come and visit the beautiful historic sites of Iran.
Iranians are very thirsty for being connected and heard and being communicated with the rest of the world. So at this point in recent years when internet was available to them, as much as it was, we know it was not a hundred percent like the internet we have, Iranians were huge users of social media.
Instagram was, up to these protests, the only openly social media platform available to them. And we know that there were many millions of Iranians, maybe up to 70% of Iranians, were on Instagram doing businesses, being connected with each other, being connected with the outside world, like if they had friends and relatives. They also have a very strong presence on Twitter, but they need to use VPN. But generally, if you imagine Iran has a very young generation and this very young generation is very well-educated, very well-connected with the outside world, and dying to be even more connected. So social media plays a major role in their daily life.
Grant Wahl:
Jason, how might we see the protests in Iran influence things at the World Cup with the Iranian team?
Jason Rezaian:
I think we're going to see it influence the Iranian team's experience first and foremost. I think there'll be more international media scrutiny on what they do during the games. I also think that there's been this conversation about whether or not FIFA should disqualify Iran from participating in the World Cup because of their support of Russia in the delivery of drones that Russia is using in their war against Ukraine.
So I think there's a lot of political intrigue involved, but also there are former players, current players, who are supportive of these protests. And I think the truth of the matter is that the Iranian national team—Team Melli, as it's known in Persian and within Iran—is sort of one of the most important symbols of modern Iran. And for that reason it's somewhat controversial.
I think fandom of the national team knew no boundaries until quite recently. And as you talked about earlier, I mean the fact that women are barred from entering stadiums, people probably had to pledge allegiance and keep their mouths shut for periods of time while playing on the team in ways that they might not have had they not been associated with the national team. All of those topics are a bit controversial, but ultimately I think the vast majority of Iranians feel connected, more connected with this team than they do with any other member of the Iranian sports community.
Grant Wahl:
It's an interesting one because I just talked to a friend of mine who's Iranian, who lives in Doha these days, and somebody I met around the 1998 World Cup game between the U.S. and Iran that was won by Iran. Is there any comparison to what was happening in '98 around that Iran team? And my friend actually had told me that there are some in the protests who think some of the players, maybe even the new coach, who's the old coach, Carlos Queiroz, are tied to the regime. Is there anything to that?
Jason Rezaian:
I'll say one thing and then I'd really like to hear what Yegi has to say, but I think by definition anybody who's playing for an Iranian national team or the national team of any country is tied to the regime in that they're paid by a federation funded by the country's government. So in that sense, yeah, they're part of the system or connected in that way. Does that mean that they are supportive of it? Not necessarily.
And I think around the question of the factors compared to 1998, that was a big deal. I mean, you remember. This was a huge moment at that point two-decade-long enmity between the U.S. and Iran. And it was at the dawn of the reform movement inside Iran. And there was hope that relations between the two countries could change. I think that there's hope that relations between the two countries could change again, but that hope is no longer invested in diplomatic outreach, whether it be through traditional diplomatic channels or public diplomacy or through sports, but rather through connectivity between the people of Iran and the people of the U.S.. And so it's in my mind an even more consequential moment than that 1998 match.
Grant Wahl:
What's your sense, Yeganeh, about how the protests might influence things at the World Cup?
Yeganeh Rezaian:
I think they will definitely have some impact at the World Cup, as we have seen in the past few weeks that its impact on several other national games that Iran players at different sports play, like the rock-climbing female Iranian who decided to ditch her hijab. And then she, I'm sure, faced consequences as she walked back to the country. We saw that our national men’s beach volleyball players made some solidarity signs at their game a couple of days ago with Iranian women.
And it's been reported that they are facing consequences. Their team arrived, their car arrived at the airport, and the security forces barred the players from giving any interviews to journalists. So I'm sure there will be both positive and negative impacts at these three initial games that Iran is going to play at the World Cup. I hope they are more positive.
We saw another team in the past couple of days play, and the players refrained themselves from singing the national anthem because they do not feel that they are representing this regime anymore. The players believe that they are more representative of the people of Iran, so they did not sing the national anthem. So we will see things like this, even more major possibly, or maybe smaller. But my heart goes out to the players once they are back in the country and the consequences that they have to face. And they know that. So what I want to say is that if we see any impact positive in solidarity with the Iranian people, those decisions are made very cleverly and very decidedly by the players if we see anything like that.
Grant Wahl:
And Yeganeh, you have written some really good stories about the situation of Iranian women not being allowed to attend soccer matches over the years in stadiums. Where is that situation right now?
Yeganeh Rezaian:
Unfortunately, the situation remained the same despite all the international pressure and all the national pressure by Iranian women and several celebrities working with Iranian women to push their request onto the federation. But the situation still remains.
There have been a couple of pre-World Cup games that FIFA asked Iran to let women in. And by that, they just hand-pick the group of women who are part of the system and let those women in. Let's say the female parliamentarian and their relatives, they let those women in the stadium, which is terrible. I was talking to a friend of mine who said the last game that Iran's federation announced that women spectators can go ahead and buy the ticket online. She was saying that that was a lie, and the website never opened up and it was impossible for them to purchase the ticket online once they put their gender in the system.
So we have seen these tactics by the Iran regime, and unfortunately it's very sad. And the truth is that Iranian women are still banned from freely walking to the stadium without any hurt or without any obstacle, and sit there as a normal fan of the Team Melli and watch the game.
Grant Wahl:
I want to ask Jason first and then Yeganeh just about how you got into soccer. And I was talking with Jason a little bit before we started recording, and you were in wrongful imprisonment. You were essentially in a similar case to Brittney Griner's current situation in Russia. You also watched a lot of soccer while you were imprisoned.
Jason Rezaian:
Yeah. I grew up in northern California running around on a field and trying to kick a ball and not being very good at it. Although I was on the soccer team in maybe sixth and seventh grade, I moved on and kind of lost any interest, although many of my friends continued to play into high school and on club teams in college. And then in early adulthood we would travel to Europe and stuff. Everybody would say, "Let's go see a soccer match." I'm like, "Why am I gonna spend 50 bucks to go stadium to watch a game that doesn't make any sense?"
And then I landed in prison in Iran. And after several months of being in complete isolation, I was put into a larger cell that had a TV. And Iran state television, they don't pay any licensing fees to international broadcasters and they just show what they want to show. So they would have live feeds of European soccer matches.
And one of my cellmates was a huge Real Madrid fan. Loved Ronaldo, which I thought was ridiculous because the guy just seemed like such a, I don't know kind words we could use on this show, Grant.
Grant Wahl:
Whatever you want.
Jason Rezaian:
He just seemed like one of those dudes, you know what I'm saying? And what's a guy like that, running around in shorts afraid to get dirty for? And as I would say, friendly rivalry in the cell, I naturally gravitated towards Barcelona and just loved the kind of bad-boy nature of Neymar and sort of sour attitude of Suárez. And so I got into it, and it made it so that I could learn some of the rules of soccer. Yegi and I started watching Ted Lasso not so long ago. I was happy to understand that I'm not the only American that doesn't understand what offside constitutes. You know it when you see it, right? He said something like that, I think. But it was a really kind of fun aspect of... Fun is not the right word, but a little bit of joy in an otherwise dark time.
Grant Wahl:
Yeganeh, what's your connection to soccer over the years?
Yeganeh Rezaian:
As the third girl or third daughter of a father who was desperate to have a son, I grew up watching lots of soccer with my sister and dad, who was always trying to teach us. And it was a lot of fun. I grew up playing soccer in my neighborhood as the only girl who was not wearing a hijab and acted a little bit tomboy with my boy friends in the neighborhood. And it was a lot of fun. And my dad was always there and trying to teach me more and help me get physically stronger so I could continue playing with the boys.
But obviously there was an age when I got 16, 17 that I couldn't hide my femaleness anymore, if that's the word I can use. And yeah, the Islamic rules and the dress code banned me from playing anymore because we had angry religious female neighbors who were not happy with me playing in our street with boys with no hijab. So I had to stop and instead watch more soccer.
And I was always desperate to go to the stadium and watch a soccer team of my national Team Melli or national team. And it got to a point that when Iran and Australia were playing for that pre-qualifying game, I passed out. Can you believe that? As a 16-year-old, I passed out when Iran won. And then my parents were so worried for me because I invested too much on that game, and I had so much stress that the moment Khododad Azizi scored that goal, I was unconscious for a few minutes, or maybe a few seconds.
But it's really sad, Grant, to say that until this day I have not been able to walk to a stadium and watch a soccer game yet. I was very lucky that when we early on came back to the United States, I went to the Golden State Warriors’ Oracle Stadium and watched a male basketball game. And that was a lot of fun. And I remember walking up to the top of the Oracle Stadium in San Francisco Bay Area and I said, "Oh my God, Jason, this is breathtaking. This is so beautiful." But I'm looking forward to finally being able to watch a soccer game. If it is Real Madrid-Barcelona, which I am a rival of my husband and I am a fan of Real Madrid, I can't wait. I would love that. And now we have a little boy, and I'm hoping that we can teach him some moves and he becomes at least a soccer player for fun. I think that's my story.
Jason Rezaian:
He likes to kick, he likes to kick the ball around, but every once in a while he picks it up and slam dunks it into a mini basketball hoop. So I'm hoping that he's a multisport guy. And we went to Spain this summer and we bought matching Barça outfits for him and his one-year-old cousin. So the rivalry continues.
Grant Wahl:
I look forward to him being a rebel and deciding to be an Atlético Madrid fan.
Jason Rezaian:
Exactly. Exactly.
Grant Wahl:
So when the World Cup starts very soon here, Iran's first game is against England. I think it's the second game of the tournament. The game against the United States is on November 29. What will you two be doing to watch that game, to prepare for that game, and what will it look like at your household?
Jason Rezaian:
Well, four years ago, Yegi and I threw a watch party at a sports bar, at a Boston-themed sports bar here in DC, because we wanted a place for people to get together and watch the match. We didn't know or hear of any other venues where Iranian Americans would be gathering. And it was a packed house. A couple hundred people came, and we had Persian food and it was a really special thing. We're getting really close to the day of the match, I guess less than three weeks away. But that being said, I know we're going to do something. I'm not sure what it is yet, but I'm sure it's going to be pretty cool.
Yeganeh Rezaian:
I would like us, Grant, to do another watch party, but with respect to all the Iranians who have been killed, all the protestors back in Iran and all the blood that has been shed, I don't think we are going to do a party. But rest assured we are going to at least watch at home and have a big table of all kinds of snacks and put our baby to sleep, and the two of us will be glued to TV. And I think at the end of the day, I'm going to cheer Iran and Jason will cheer the U.S.
Jason Rezaian:
Well, this is what I said to Yegi, Grant, once before we got married, and it almost ended the relationship for good. Iranian and American wrestling champions were facing off in the Olympics. And I told her, "May the best country win." And that day, America won. And I realized that I love America, I love Iran. I'll just be happy when the two teams face off in a couple weeks, that it's a clean match, a friendly match, and one where the world gets to see that sportsmen can compete in a way that preserves their humanities.
Grant Wahl:
One last question for Yeganeh. Do you have hope that someday you might be able to go to a different Iran, maybe even run by a different regime, where it's very easy for women to attend soccer games?
Yeganeh Rezaian:
I stay hopeful, Grant. I hope so. That's the hope that keeps me alive, because I would like to go back to my country, see my old neighborhood and see Iranian women in their full capacity of looking beautiful and smelling good and being intelligent and smart, and they don't have to be forced by anyone to do anything. So yeah, I carry that hope in my heart. I hope it happens in my lifetime.
Grant Wahl:
Jason and Yeganeh Rezaian, thanks for coming on the show.
Jason Rezaian:
Thanks for having us, Grant.
Yeganeh Rezaian:
Thank you so much.
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Another great interview