The Interview: Janusz Michallik
The ESPN and SiriusXM Analyst on His Journey from Solidarity-era Poland to the U.S., playing for the USMNT, the MISL and Early MLS, Gaga Slonina and Much More
Janusz Michallik is a friend and one of the smartest people in American soccer, but I had never spoken to him about the story of his arrival to the U.S. from Solidarity-era Poland until this interview. He’s a fascinating guy, and I really enjoyed speaking to him about that and several other topics here.
The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.
Grant Wahl:
Our guest now is one of the most astute thinkers of the game in the United States. Janusz Michallik works for ESPN and SiriusXM in the United States and in Poland for TVP Sport. He had a 19-year pro playing career and 44 caps as a defender with the U.S. men's national team. He played professionally indoors and in outdoor soccer in the first couple years of MLS. So there's a lot to talk about here. Janusz, it's great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Janusz Michallik:
Oh, it's my pleasure, Grant. It's going to be great. Looks like you're in some sort of a silo, like a professional studio. I love it.
Grant Wahl:
It looks professional, but don't be deceived. I know we're an audio podcast, but it looks like I'm in a sauna or something. I'm actually at my WeWork facility in New York where they have these little cabins that have sort of a wood interior. But yeah, it makes for an amusing image, I guess. I’ll have to post a picture at some point.
Janusz Michallik:
It's good. You should.
“People [in Poland] couldn't understand my decision to stay [in the U.S.], and I still don't have an answer. In terms of my soccer career at that time, that was probably the worst thing I could have done. ‘You know what? Go over there. There's no outdoor league, you're currently playing for the Polish junior national team. You've signed a contract with a first division team in Poland. The smart money is on you to go to the United States and play indoor soccer with hockey boards?’ Which, by the way, when I first came here, I didn't even know I was going to do that. I didn't know such a game existed, to be quite honest.” — Janusz Michallik
Grant Wahl:
But we're recording this on Monday, we're coming out Thursday, and obviously there's a lot going on in between, including the Champions League semifinal opening legs. But the first thing I want to ask you is actually pretty straightforward, because you are always on top of so much that's happening in the soccer world. And I'm wondering how many full games of soccer do you watch in a week, and how do you do it?
Janusz Michallik:
Oh yeah. I don't know. Blessing and a curse. No really. I mean, I do watch a lot. Although, I mean, let's be honest these days. I mean, watching two or three games at the same time or so many games. I wish I could study that a little bit closer. It's difficult these days, right? I mean, it's a big word saying “watch it” and you've seen everything. I find myself, I'm sure just like you and your listeners, going back because I've missed something or afterwards I thought that, "My goodness, I think I've seen everything." And then I see on Twitter, there's a penalty shout. I'm like, "What penalty shout? I didn't see it." Well, how can you when you watch two or three at the same time? But I do watch a lot, as I've said.
I mean, it has helped me because you know me fairly well. I think I'm kind of, I don't want to say Jack of all trades, master of none, but to a degree my versatility helps me. But there are often times when I wish I had just one thing to concentrate on as well. I mean, in our business, as you know, I don't know which is a better way to survive and stay within the industry. But here we are. Yes, I do watch a lot. I've never counted, but obviously on the weekends with so many leagues playing, it's quite a few. It also depends a lot on the assignments I get from ESPN.
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Grant Wahl:
I mean, it just seems to me from following your Twitter that basically the major European leagues, you're up to speed on. And I know for SiriusXM, I used to do work for them. You always had to be ready for call-ins especially from people to be knowledgeable about all sorts of different leagues. But what I found in my experience is I don't have the bandwidth to watch the English Championship. I've had to make some decisions. And as of right now, the Mexican league, it's hard for me to be totally on top of everything that's happening in that league. Honestly, with MLS, now that there are 28 teams and so many games, it's getting harder to be on top of everything in MLS. What are the countries that you watch games from basically every week?
Janusz Michallik:
Well, I mean, obviously the Premier League is the big one. It has to do with Sirius a lot and with ESPN. Because, I mean, our roles change constantly. So at the moment with ESPN and social media, the YouTube channel's really big. And we do those hits after the games where we actually talk about the game, what happened. So that's a big one for me at ESPN. And obviously with Sirius, because Monday, tonight, Keith Costigan and I will have a three-hour show about Premier League. So for three hours, it's not easy. You better be watching all those games, right? So that's something that I watch. I'm involved with the Bundesliga from time to time at ESPN. We have the rights to that and LaLiga as well.
I mean, I don't really work with LaLiga in terms of commentary, I think at one time I was filling in for somebody, but I feel like I have to, because what if I get that assignment? I'm one of those guys where I almost have to, right? I mean, I could wing it some shows and watch highlights. It's just not in my nature. And I don't want to say it just to show people how hard I work. I work hard. It’s just in my nature. And I always feel that when I go on one of these shows, I don't want a caller or somebody in the comments to say, "No, you didn't watch that. That's not what happened." And of course, I know that I will not see everything, right?
I mean, if I'm commenting or doing a recap on Arsenal against Manchester United, I may not see all of it, right? A viewer the other day commented and said, "Well, you've missed this." And he's right. If he only pays attention to that one game, and one game only, he'd probably pick up on some nuances that I've missed because there are four other Premier League games that I'm watching at the same time, and possibly a Bundesliga, Dortmund against Bayern Munich. And I'm keeping an eye on Barcelona, Real Madrid. But I try. I try to desperately watch everything, and I go back on highlights during the game or Reddit. I'm sure you know, I mean, Reddit's incredible because they post a lot of stuff in case you miss it and you have no chance of seeing it.
So I do work on a lot of leagues, but the major leagues as well, and MLS, I try it. But I'm with you on that one. That's a whole different story, because I love MLS. I worry a little bit. I mean, some of it has nothing to do with Major League Soccer, they're playing games when they're playing games. I do get tired, but the league is so big. It's impossible. It's impossible. I don't know how to solve that, but I know owners wanted... I'm getting ahead of myself, but to have 8, 9, 10 games on a Saturday night, it's just incredible. Who can possibly watch it? And they shouldn't be surprised that ratings sometimes aren't great.
Grant Wahl:
Yeah. It's got to be interesting when there's 32 teams in MLS and just how many games that's going to be, even 30. I mean, it's tough to keep up with all of it. But because you do consume so much, though, from around the world, I feel like I can ask you this question and get a good answer. What are some of the things you're most excited about in the soccer world right now and why?
Janusz Michallik:
I mean, nothing changes. I was thinking about that the other day, because somebody asked me, what do you look for in games? Because you've mentioned, I mean, I like my tactics, but I understand that tactics in games get boring sometimes, right? We just want to be entertained because we do consume so much of football. And nothing has changed. I can sacrifice great quality. I've often said, what a great game. And somebody says, "Oh, that was terrible. Terrible defending on goals." I'm like, "Yeah, you are right. But you know what? With so much to see, I want excitement." I'm like a little kid, and nothing's changed with me. What's very important to me is that the stadium's full. I love when fans are loud and singing, right? I mean, if I see a great game, but I see a half-empty stadium, it’s not for me.
It really isn't. And because it is entertainment, it is about excitement. It is about remembering when I was a little kid and going to those stadiums and screaming, and yelling, and singing as well, right? I mean, it's something that I kind of miss because it's different here. I've been here 36, 37 years, whatever it's been now. And that's still one part that I'm waiting for it to develop to that degree. And I hope I don't sound like a Eurosnob because as I've just mentioned, I've been here for most of my life. This is the country I live in and I love. But I still think sometimes we're far away from that, because it's not easy to get excited about a game.
There are spots in Major League Soccer, of course, we have two or three teams that have great atmospheres, full stadiums, and you can sort of feel that. But it's still not at that level. So that's what excites me. The rivalries excite me, the big stories, the big teams, not to say that I don't like minnows or smaller teams, of course. And I've watched plenty of games where people... I mean, if I know Red Star is playing Partizan, I'm there. If it's Galatasaray against Fenerbahce maybe, Besiktas these days, I'll watch it. And I'm not calling them minnows. But in a big scope of things, we don't have time to watch those games, right? Because the Premier League, Serie A. I haven't even mentioned Serie A, obviously, this is another one that I watch very closely, although we did lose the rights. And you know that I was sad when that happened.
Grant Wahl:
Yeah.
Janusz Michallik:
Congrats to our colleagues at CBS, but I think I've covered that league for the last 20 years and I miss it, not being involved on an everyday basis, although I watch it religiously.
Grant Wahl:
It's pretty hard not to think these days about Liverpool and Man City. I think in part because they've played each other quite a bit recently. They're pretty clearly the two best teams in England, maybe the two best teams in Europe. Might be on a collision course to meet in the Champions League final. Still don't know who's going to win the league. What about Liverpool and Man City right this moment stands out to you about these two teams?
Janusz Michallik:
First, immediately, the managers, leaders, what they do, how great they are. I just did that piece yesterday, some pushback, because... I mean, I'll disclose my bias of course. So I've been a Liverpool fan for a long, long time. People ask me, "How can you?" Ever since I remember, when I was growing up in Poland, we only had two foreign leagues on television, that was Bundesliga and Premier League. And Liverpool in those days, in the 70's and 80's, my colleague, Stevie Nicol, the great teams, it was easy to jump on that bandwagon because, I mean, Liverpool actually played beautiful football. Whereas maybe most of the league, if you remember, there was that old school, a little bit, the pitches weren't great. I mean, that wasn't inducive to play some great football, right?
That's not what Premier League or first division back then was known for. But I did jump on that bandwagon, and I'm still on it. But I respect both Pep Guardiola and Klopp. And yesterday I was doing a piece for ESPN and I said, because there's a fight within me. There's a thin line who's the better manager. And Pep, I love the Tiki-Taka as you know, I loved how Barcelona played, but I think Klopp is better. But anyway, that'll be in your comments because I'm sure slightly, slightly. But these two managers are incredible, and we know how important that is. I mean, look what's happening with Manchester United where Sir Alex has left, right? Look what has happened to Arsenal over the years, and as great as it sounds, it's going to be interesting to see what happens to Liverpool when Jürgen Klopp leaves or Manchester City when Pep goes as well.
This is how important leaders, I mean, obviously they have to know football. But I think they're just incredible leaders of men. And you can see that game in and game out with what it takes to play football these days, either two or three days on such a level where every game is a massive game, where there's so much pressure and it seems like their players don't feel it. So it kind of brings me back to El Clásico, doesn't it? Pep against Mourinho, remember?
Grant Wahl:
Yeah.
Janusz Michallik:
That's important. I mean, the teams, the fans, everything's important, but that rivalry between the managers maybe, or how good they are is also just as important. So yeah. Klopp and Pep Guardiola jump at me immediately.
Grant Wahl:
And is there something out there right now in the world of soccer that you're entertained by and you're enjoying that you think is kind of an undercovered story right now from wherever?
Janusz Michallik:
An undercovered story in the world of football? Well, I mean, for a while was, I'm just waiting and looking at the shift between club football and international football because, those lines are getting …. And I may have even talked with you about it. I'm sure you've had guests, right? We always say, representing your country is so important. International football will never die, and I don't think it will, but you can see, right? I mean, the friendly is going away. Many people will say, "Well, that's great." But I think there's less and less of that. And slightly but surely I think club football's taking over a little bit, right?
Grant Wahl:
Yeah.
Janusz Michallik:
I mean, aside from the World Cup and what? And maybe, let's be honest, European Championship and Copa América. And again, don't want to be elitist because I do watch Africa Cup of Nations, all that.
But some of these competitions, I don't want to say are less important, but I have a feeling that I've had for a long time now that club football has really, really taken over that. And with the talk about Super League, also now you see the reaction from international football, just the ideas, World Cup every two years. Yes, it's about money, but I have a feeling it's also about relevance because I think maybe UEFA, FIFA and Copa América wanting to merge, right? Copa América, there’s talk with UEFA. I think they sense it, that they better do something, otherwise the elite club football is going to take over, and I don't think that's good.
Grant Wahl:
Yeah. I’ve noticed this and talked about this with a few people over the years, that it certainly does seem like in terms of level, quality of play, that the UEFA Champions League now is pretty far beyond the World Cup. And I think most people who watch a lot of soccer think that. There may be some people who disagree, but because national team coaches don't get their players very often, it's harder for them to introduce anything complicated or semi-complicated tactically like you can do at the club level, players aren't as familiar with each other.
And part of me did wonder if they do end up someday switching the calendar around so that there's fewer international windows in a year, but players are with their national teams longer at a time for more games, that maybe that might have a potential positive impact on chemistry, level of play. I don't know, it's just sort of throwing the idea out there, but I feel like also international soccer has fewer top coaches now than it used to, that the club game really has started to monopolize the best coaches in the sport in a way that didn't even used to happen as much.
Janusz Michallik:
Right. I mean, I think in Europe and in South America, maybe, because here we're talking about coach of the national team. It's a selection, right? I mean, the word for national team manager is that, right? I mean, we don't have an equivalent of that in the English language, and same in Polish we do have that, because that's what it is, a selection. Just come in, you select the players that are not necessarily the best, but are going to be the best for the group and for that particular time, say the World Cup's coming up, right? Because there's often that fight, "I can't believe so and so didn't make the World Cup squad." And we do have to remember that it's a selection, and it's unusual to get somebody for four weeks.
And this time it's going to be even less because it is in November-December. I think there's only going to be a week ahead of that, right? Normally you have two, three weeks or even a month of preparation. So yes. The thing is, I mean, I hope that the international game exists. I think it will. I think the World Cup is super important, just like all the confederations and their competitions with it. And I'm sure I'm dating myself, because I'm hearing a lot of people talking to me say, "Well, Champions Leagues is better than the World Cup." I mean, I've heard that from enough people that I had to address that. I'm not saying it's the majority, I hope it's not. But I'm like, "Come on."
I mean, when you were a little kid, you came out, and when I played pickup games, and you’re imagining things that you're scoring in the last minute in your little pickup game, 5v5 to small goals. You go, "Yeah, yeah, Janusz Michallik! 91st minute, World Cup... " I know the Champions League didn't exist there, but the European Cup did. And it was just as good if not better because only the winners were there. So I know that the kids don't go out there and play like we did anymore. That's just a fact. So I don't know. I'd have to ask somebody that has 5, 6, 7 year old kids now if they do play and do they envision themselves in the final of the Champions League or the final of the World Cup?
I just think that we're all pretty nationalistic in our core in our game. I think we're all proud about where we come from or where we've played. My case, it's easier for me because I always have two countries to cheer for. But I think the World Cup for me is the pinnacle of our sport, and it's not even close. And I wanted, as you know and everybody knows, I was one of the last cuts [from the 1994 USMNT World Cup squad after] being on the national team for four years. From the beginning almost till the end, didn't make it. And to me it was easily, easily the biggest disappointment in my life because that's how much the World Cup meant to me when I was growing up. Mind you, Poland was incredibly good. That ‘74 team. I remember like it was, when I was eight years old. But that was the best... Poland could have won the World Cup.
Grant Wahl:
Oh, yeah.
Janusz Michallik:
And maybe should have won the World Cup in ‘74. So that shaped my life, shaped my career. ‘74 then ‘82, well, in ‘74 Poland came third and ‘82 they came third as well, right? And ‘78, it was in that horrible World Cup. My colleague Mario Kempes made me cry, Argentina, beat Poland. And he scored both goals, I think. But that's what shaped my life. Now maybe with some of the younger kids now, I don't know, or players, younger players, if the World Cup shapes their life or Champions League or maybe some other competitions, I don't know.
Grant Wahl:
I feel like I should be clear here. I get most excited about the World Cup, more so than I do for Champions League, which I also love. It's just different. I do feel like the higher level of play now is probably at the Champions League, but that doesn't mean it's bad at the World Cup or anything. And I do believe the United States as a soccer country in particular is a country where international soccer still matters a lot in the growth of the sport here, more so than I think probably the Champions League does, even though that importance is growing as well.
I just remember doing a search of Google Trends a few years ago on Christian Pulisic and some of the biggest moments he had early on in his career in the Champions League, and the amount of interest in the United States was far greater in Christian Pulisic on Google when he had scored two goals against Trinidad and Tobago for the U.S. men's national team than when he scored a huge goal for Dortmund to send them to the Champions League quarterfinals.
So clearly still what moves the needle most in the United States is the World Cup, World Cup qualifying. But the club game has grown, obviously. You mentioned this, and I was going to ask you later on, but I'm going to bring it up now because we're talking about the World Cup. You were kind of famously one of the last cuts for the ‘94 World Cup. You had played a lot with that team under Bora Milutinovic. That World Cup obviously was in the United States. You said it was the most disappointing experience of your career. What was that like? What happened?
Janusz Michallik:
Well, first of all, it's true. But there are ways when disappointment comes that you're trying to justify it to yourself, and some people try to justify it to others more so than to yourself. I don't know if I can give myself credit, but I remember when it happened, because if a player has a disappointment, doesn't make it somewhere, doesn't play, whatever it is, it’s often well, coach, or I had an injury. There was none of that. I mean, the truth of the matter is although I could have gotten lucky somehow, at the end of the day I had to sit down with myself and say, "Well, I wasn't good enough." There was something in those last moments... Remember, and I've mentioned selection because it's important, right?
Because I don't know, it wasn't political, but when you're making those decisions, a lot goes into it, right? I mean, who can play this position or that position? I don't know what it was because I never found the answer. And to be honest with you, I said to myself, I didn't want to know. I didn’t want to seek an answer to why. Even if there was a definitive answer to that, what good does it do? It just makes you go crazy even more. So, I mean, things could have happened, right? I mean, I was so close and I know I could have played a couple different positions, which I did on that national team, but at the end of the day, you're only as good as your last game.
And in that sense, the last, I don't know, say five, six... When the decisions started to take place, there was something there where the coaching staff sat down and said, "Well, we're going to be better off taking this person instead of that person." And ultimately that's where I stand on it, because, I mean, I was healthy, I was in good form, I was fighting for that spot like anybody else. There wasn't an excuse that I could say, "Well, yeah. I mean, I didn't play last month or the couple months before because I was injured and I couldn't... " There was none of that. I didn't have any injuries. So that's what it was. And it was disappointing because I was there literally from the very beginning of that squad, even before Bora came in and John Kowalski had that interim tag for, I don't know how long, couple games or a month or so.
And of course, I mean, I don't know who was the last cut, it was me and I don't know, Dominic [Kinnear], Goose [Jeff Agoos]. I mean, it was right there in the end, on the beach in California. That story's been told on the rock where Bora and I sat down and we knew without saying any words what that conversation was about.
Grant Wahl:
Yeah. I went back and I saw a story in the LA Times from then, I think Desmond Armstrong was the other one in that group who was cut.
Janusz Michallik:
Desmond, Goose, myself and maybe Hendo [Chris Henderson], I don't know if it was... I can't remember exactly and who. I think I was either last or second to last, because I know Brian Quinn knew before we even went to the beach in our training center. I’d seen Desmond having a conversation before. But it doesn't really matter. Does it? Who was the last, second, third or fourth? It makes no difference, right? I mean, certainly we don't take pride in that I was first or second, we don't know.
Grant Wahl:
Now, if it would be possible to go back a little further, I want to get into your story a little bit. At what point did you first come to the United States?
Janusz Michallik:
Well, remember, my father came here in ‘76 to the old NASL, with Pelé, Cruyff and all those. It was more toward the end of NASL, but still many great players played, right? I mean, in Poland, there's a story. And actually, it's funny, because I read about Zbigniew Boniek because he was one of those players as well. In Poland, you couldn't leave. It was communist Poland when I was still there, you couldn't leave until you turned 30 and only special players, and sort of saying, "Thank you for your career." And my father was the captain of a Polish first division team. He'd been with the national Olympic team. So he was allowed to leave. He had a choice of going to France, United States and came here to play for Hartford Bicentennials.
Janusz Michallik:
But that was ‘76 and I was never really thinking about coming here. My parents were divorced, and he was here then, ultimately he decided to stay here after he played two or three years. Obviously he came here towards the end of his career, and I came here in ‘82, in ‘83, I think, for vacation. And could have I supposed stayed, but I was already, as I mentioned, signed my first contract with the first division team, my dad's team and my team, when I was 16. I started to play for the Polish national team, junior national eam, under-15, taking a couple trips. Things were great. I went back didn't really think about it. And I came back the next year for vacation and with all the talks, I mean, it was communist Poland. The decision wasn't made because of that. I mean, I was still 17 years old. I didn't really care about the Communist Party and all that.
But as a family, we sort of made that decision that maybe this is the time. But really that's how it happened. It was mainly because my dad came here to play soccer, right? Otherwise, probably this destination would never have come up, certainly not in those years when Poland was still behind the Iron Curtain.
Grant Wahl:
That's fascinating. And in the ‘80s, U.S. pro soccer was in an interesting place because the NASL folded, I think, in 1982. And then indoor soccer, the Major Indoor Soccer League, was starting to get more popular. And I grew up in Kansas City being a Kansas City Comets fan and going to games there, and it was sold out in Kemper Arena, and it was really exciting. And you ended up playing indoor and outdoor in your professional career. What were the ‘80s like from your perspective as a young player in this country?
Janusz Michallik:
I mean, I have this conversation with younger players, and it's great to see Major League Soccer right now. I mean, we'll get to it. I never thought the time would come. And I certainly, because obviously I'm one of the originals in MLS in ‘96. So I can say that. Even when it started, I remember saying to myself, "There's no chance that lasts." Maybe it was that negativity from the years before because I'd been a part of six or seven leagues that folded. I mean, I'll tell you what it was but my second thing was Louisville Thunder, Keith Tozer, who's now back with MASL now I think it's called. I mean, we won the national hampionship and immediately after the team folded, it was that kind of so many different leagues, AISA, MI...
So, look, yeah. That's why people couldn't understand my decision to stay, and I still don't have an answer. It was one of those things where speaking with my dad, with my mom, kind of said, "Well, maybe this could be something." But it certainly wasn't something that was in terms of my soccer career at that time, that was probably the worst thing I could have done. You know what I mean? I mean, it wouldn't be one where somebody says, "Yeah, you know what? Go over there. There's no outdoor league, you're currently playing for the Polish junior national team. You've signed a contract with the first division team in Poland. The smart money is on you to go to the United States and play indoor soccer with hockey boards? Which, by the way, when I first came here, I didn't even know I was going to do that.
I didn't know such a game existed, to be quite honest. So when I came here, two weeks I stayed... I'm still in Connecticut, in the same town that I came in, Glastonbury, Conn. My dad, through indoor people, John Kowalski, of course, who was a big, big help in my career at the time, MISL, as you know. Because you were a fan of the Kansas City Comets. I had a contact with the Pittsburgh Spirit, who were a great team, and John Kowalski had five or six of some of the most famous Polish players on that team. They're great. Stan Terlecki, everybody knows him.
Grant Wahl:
Yep.
Janusz Michallik:
Obviously recently passed away, but he played for Cosmos later on. He was a great player. And any of the others, and I'm not going to mention names because most of your listeners won’t know, but they were first division, legitimate top players who played for national team. And John had a little Polish colony in Pittsburgh of six or seven. So I went there and he introduced me. I think trained with them a couple times. But I remember John telling me, he goes, "Listen, if I sign another Polish player, they're going to kick me out because we're not doing too well, right?" Because he already had literally six or seven Polish players. So I'm like, "Well, that's great." I think he goes, "But listen, I'm trading Krys Sobieski, who played for Legia, starting goalkeeper, played for Poland, and was a great goalkeeper, to Cleveland Force.
And there's a coach who later has been with me my entire career and whom I love, Timo Liekoski, was of course the head coach. He later was our assistant coach with the ‘94 team. Who later when Major League Soccer started took me to Columbus Crew. So that's how I first met Timo. And it seems like I've been with him for half of my life, but that's how it started. I loved every minute of it. Those that I remember, I mean Major Indoor Soccer League. I got injured, of course, in the first pre-season when I got the 17 year old, I mean, total reconstruction of my knee. Back then it was a career-ending injury. That's what everybody, or most of it. It took me, I think, 12 to 13 months to come back from that.
Grant Wahl:
Wow.
Janusz Michallik:
So, I was there, I wasn't playing, but I just loved every minute of it. I mean, Darth Vader, the theme to Star Wars, George Lucas later sued Cleveland Force for that, for the copyrights. But I mean, Cleveland, the Richfield Coliseum, 20,000 every game. I tell this story because it's funny and I think it's worth telling, because Cleveland Cavaliers back then, I remember a point guard. You'd probably even remember, World B. Free was his name. If the Cavaliers in the NBA had 5,000 people at the game, they were happy and lucky. They were asking us for tickets. So there you have it. Now quite different the way NBA is now, I suppose, but it was a great time. 18, 19,000 average every game. And when like San Diego Sockers with Clavijo came in, and Juli Veee, and Branko Segota, great players, Zungul came in, that's in 20, 21,000, standing room only. It's tremendous, tremendous memories from that.
Grant Wahl:
No, that's great stuff. I'm excited. Just listening to these stories as a kid who used to hate the Cleveland Force, in a good way though.
Janusz Michallik:
We were awesome. Kai Haaskivi, Phil Murphy, I mean, Ward and Benny Dargle, I mean some great players. Foreign players that played in the top division in England. I mean, there was a lot of great players there, Bernie James, of course now, more American players.
Grant Wahl:
No, definitely. And at what point did you start to think about becoming a U.S. citizen? Because obviously if you played for the U.S. national team, you became a citizen at one point.
Janusz Michallik:
Yes. But funny enough, because people of course right away somehow think that I did this on purpose. No, I mean, at no point did I think of becoming a citizen for the purpose of playing for the U.S. national team.
Grant Wahl:
Okay.
Janusz Michallik:
Matter of fact, if I did, then I would've had a chance with John Kowalski to go and play against Poland in Warsaw at Legia Stadium, which is the team that I hated the most because I was playing for Gwardia, it was a big derby. But I did everything like any citizen or any person in this country would. I mean, obviously I had a green card, and because my father was a citizen by then already, we started the proceedings. And the laws back then were that you had to be in this country for five years while holding a Green Card. Unlike some of my former teammates more recently where next thing you know, they get a Green Card right away and the citizenship is run through Washington, somehow it's quicker. None of that. I had to wait five years. It just so happens the timing of it was almost perfect. I mean, it was perfect for me to join the national team under Bora. But I remember John Kowalski called me, said, "Listen, we have a friendly game in Poland and I would love for you to come."
And I was a month short and two months later, or three months later, whatever the timing was, I did get it, but not in time for that. I mean, I don't need to dispel any the rumors because I'm sure nobody is talking about this but you and I. But I didn't set out to play for the U.S. national team or to get my citizenship because I wanted to play for the national team. At that time, I didn't even think of it, because there's no outdoor league. It was hard to fathom. I was playing indoor soccer for three or four, whatever it was. There wasn't a true professional league. Later on, I started to play, just before the national team with the A-League where the Vancouver Whitecaps, and Sounders, and Portland Timbers were, just for those that think that those three teams just started playing in MLS.
There were great teams way before that. And I truly mean it, they were very professionally run in a semi-professional league. But that was my reality. Not true professional environment by any... I mean, within the indoor league, that was professionally done. But when I first came and first stepped in indoor soccer with the boards and turf, I was like, "What is this about?" I mean, I had to learn ricochets, how to play off the boards. You know what I mean? It seems simple, it's logical, you pick up that stuff quickly, but it does take time. There's certain nuances that you had to learn. So to me, the notion of playing for the U.S. national team was nowhere near my thinking.
Grant Wahl:
I've been doing some research recently more than even I had before into the U.S.-Mexico soccer rivalry through the years. And one thing that's become clear is the 1991 Gold Cup in which the U.S. beat Mexico in the semifinal and then went on to win the final was a big moment in the rivalry's history. Because Mexico had totally dominated the U.S. through the decades. Just so much winning by Mexico, very little by the United States. And that ‘91 Gold Cup semifinal was big. You were with that group, right? What do you remember?
Janusz Michallik:
Yeah. I pulled my hamstring towards the first... I don't know when, but in the first game against Trinidad and Tobago, I started that game and pulled my hamstring. So I mean, obviously I was with the team, on the bench, but I couldn't play, but it was massive. It was massive because, I mean, first of all it was the first Gold Cup, right?
Grant Wahl:
Right.
Janusz Michallik:
I mean, there was whatever it was called before, I can't even remember, but it was the very first Gold Cup, right? Which is of course the equivalent of Copa América or European Championship. And it is important by the way, I still talk to people about Gold Cup. "No, it's super important. It's our confederation. That's what we need to do first to win that."
And obviously we knew that something new was happening. Bora came in, and that was the true beginning of the preparation to 1994 World Cup, right? And we needed to, I mean, obviously as a team, you needed to bond, but success is important. And if you can get it early, it just builds you, right? And I think without even thinking too much, now in retrospect, when you look at that, it came at a perfect time because it came early. Sometimes you wait, you build, you train and you can't win. It's not like we were expected to win many things, right? So I remember that distinctly, I think the bonding in the group was tremendous, right? Yes, we had our issues, Bora came in and you know how you was, a whirlwind. Here and there and everywhere.
But somewhere in between, he did create a good collective. I mean, there's so many great things about Bora, so many maybe negative. You find out with every manager, right? But I think he knew what it was going to take, right? I mean, he was tedious. We trained forever, twice a day, all of that. But I think he understood that we needed the not only culture of winning, but also culture of understanding who we may face in that World Cup. And I remember that many times when we used to go to Laguna Beach, which by the way, I just visited a couple weeks ago. My son's out in LA. And I went to Mission Viejo. And the bar, I forget the bar, the Irish pub, actually is not there. I was shocked.
Grant Wahl:
Oh no.
Janusz Michallik:
I was like, "What happened? How can an Irish pub go bad?" And we used to go there and watch Champions League because Bora would make us. Because big games weren't available yet on TV like they are right now. And I remember a couple of my team, a lot of people were like, "Oh, here we go again." And I remember Bora saying, "Look, some of these players you may be facing four years from now. You surely need to know... I mean, they're big names." Great. And everybody, the Romarios of the world, Bebetos, whatever it was, right? So I think winning the Gold Cup was super important. It started to build that culture. We tasted a win in a big competition against a massive, massive team like Mexico. I mean, we were nowhere near them, but then the final was I think, what? Honduras, wasn't it in the final, penalties?
The next Gold Cup we went to the final as well. I’ll never forget that. I was on the bench in that final against Mexico B team because they didn't send the first team. In the Azteca, literally 120,000 people. Remember those games at noon, smog, hot. I mean, I remember going from the Azteca, I don't know if it's the same now, but you kind of had to go though that spiral staircase, up from below. I mean, I was winded just going on the pitch for the warmup, with the altitude and all that. I think that was the game with Cobi Jones actually had to come off because he had breathing problems.
Grant Wahl:
Yeah.
Janusz Michallik:
I mean, they literally on the bench had to give him air. And Cobi could run forever. I mean, Cobi, in terms of fitness, and he could run three games and you wouldn't know it. So that was the ‘93 Gold Cup. I think they hammered us 4-0, I think, in the final, if memory serves right. It was one of those games, I was like, "Well, thank God I wasn't out there in that final." So that was important. The culture and the first Gold Cup, I think, hindsight from just looking back on it, maybe we don't give it enough importance. So I'm glad you asked that.
Grant Wahl:
Yeah, it's interesting. And you did talk a little bit earlier about the start of MLS, which was in 1996, and how different was it then compared to now for a player?
Janusz Michallik:
Hmm. Well, let me start... Because I did say it, that if you asked me then and some did, if it's going to last for as long as it has, I probably would've said no. But maybe because I was just skeptical because of all the other leagues, right?
Grant Wahl:
Right.
Janusz Michallik:
But from the professionalism of the league, it was good from the beginning. I know it's not the same as it was, the money, obviously the front offices weren't as big, but it was the first time where I felt this is at least a start, it's professionally done, right? I'll never forget when it... Because first I went to Columbus. And I'm like, "Columbus?" And many wonder, why Columbus? Right. But you know very well Mr. Hunt, right? Lamar Hunt.
Janusz Michallik:
I mean, you're from Kansas City. I mean, I was shocked because I didn't know who he was. I had zero idea, other than somebody told me, "Well, he owns Kansas City." But I was like, "Yeah. Okay." I mean, I watch NFL football but it's not like I lived it and I would pay attention to the owners of the NFL. I remember just flying in the first time and seeing him in the office, Mr. Lamar Hunt. And working every day in the preseason. I have a bad memory, but some things stick in my mind, he's broken his arm actually, and he was still in the office every day. And I was like, "Huh." Even in the indoor leagues, I never remember seeing owners for the most part anywhere. In fact, a lot of them were hiding, especially on a payday, it was like, in those indoor leagues, when you got a check you sprinted to the nearest bank like, "Let's see if this one clears." I mean, it's true.
I mean, many of my friends will tell you that, right? You get a paycheck and you're like, "Okay, let's see." But it was professionally done. Lamar Hunt was an incredible man. We all know that, but just in case some don't, I will say that. I mean, he wanted the best for the Columbus Crew. He spent time, even though, I mean, he had the NFL team who was, I mean, that was obviously a massive, massive team, massive business, and a massive league that we couldn't compare ourselves to. And maybe still can't, right? So I respected that.
And from what I understand, other teams were similar, although obviously I wasn't in the front offices. It was just 10 teams to start with. And I thought that everything was professional. I really did. This was I think the first time... Hmm. No, because, I mean, Cleveland Force was super professional too, but maybe for the first time I felt like a true professional because it was an outdoor league that I actually said, "Okay, this has a chance." For how long? I wasn't sure.
Grant Wahl:
Yeah, it's interesting. I also wanted to ask you, because you were with Columbus Crew, and I've talked to Brad Friedel about this because he was with the Crew that first year that the league started.
Janusz Michallik:
We were together.
Grant Wahl:
And you're playing in the Horseshoe in Columbus, the Ohio State football stadium. And Brad always told me that he was convinced that the penalty boxes weren't regulation width and that nothing was regulation width on that field.
Janusz Michallik:
No. Was it the smallest one? I don't know if it was San Jose, the Spartan Stadium, or ours. I think ours was smaller in terms of width. I mean, it was a close call, right? Because if you remember Spartan Stadium, especially on that corner over there. When I first walked up, it sort of reminds me a little bit of NYCFC now. I've called some games a couple seasons ago as well. But yes. I mean, obviously it wasn't the stadium that we wanted, but I don't think at that time we questioned it. It was small. It was okay. I appreciate the history of Ohio State football. The vastness of it. I'll never forget the first game against DC, Harkesy coming in with Bruce Arena and they were terrible just in the beginning. It was funny because I remember that's when Brian McBride came on the scene, right?
Grant Wahl:
Yep.
Janusz Michallik:
You remember. We won 4-0 against, against DC United. I think they lost the opener up in the very first MLS game in history. They lost in San Jose while Eric Wynalda scored a goal, right? And then they came to us. That was the second game I believe. And Brian McBride came on the scene. Number one draft pick out of college and two unbelievable goals. One of them, I still... Because people send me. Bo Oshonyi, just punting the ball long and Brian scores a great goal. And the stadium was a lot. I couldn't believe it. It was 25,000 people, which was a full house, obviously. Remember in the early days they kind of cordoned off the rest of the stadium with whatever it was. And the sound in that stadium, that was the first time that maybe I felt like I was in Europe. It really was that electric. That's how great that game was. And we're like this DC United, John Harkes and Jeff Agoos were like, "Well, what the... "
And they ended up losing early. And the funniest thing, of course, as we know it, Bruce just kind of flipped the script on that within the same season and they won it. I mean, just crazy how that season went because they looked so bad in the beginning and all that matters is how you finish.
Grant Wahl:
It's really interesting. Because Bruce almost got fired early on in that season when they were losing so much. And he recently with the Revolution had his first four-game league losing streak since that opening to the ‘96 season when he was with DC United. Which shows how much longevity and success Bruce Arena has had in this league, but pretty incredible stuff. And just a couple more questions here if that's okay. I've kept you here for a long time, but I just-
Janusz Michallik:
Yeah, no, it's all good.
Grant Wahl:
... enjoyed all of it. Present day questions here. You're going to be at the World Cup in Qatar later this year working for Polish television. Obviously Poland is qualified, they’re in Mexico's group. And Robert Lewandowski is Robert Lewandowski. What are your thoughts on this U.S. team as it looks ahead in a few months to the World Cup, and what are your thoughts on the Poland team?
Janusz Michallik:
I think both sides are pretty similar in so many ways. I think even in level of, I mean, we can look at the differences here, but that's not for today. But I think they're similar in a way that I think both countries first and foremost have to appreciate being in the World Cup. And I know that sometimes it’s not popular, maybe even more so here in the United States, when you make those statements. In Poland, I think people understand a little bit more, although when Poland doesn't make it it's, of course, a big deal as well. But I think we have to understand that it's a special event that not everybody's invited, you know what I mean?
Grant Wahl:
Right.
Janusz Michallik:
You always want to be there, at this big ball. And sometimes we think ahead of ourselves, we think we should be doing better. Obviously we had a wake up call in the last World Cup. I mean, look at Italy in the last World Cup, European champions who just didn't make it. And we have to understand that. We have to appreciate it. And I think we have to enjoy it. And I'm speaking for both by the way, because I'm saying the same thing. Next month I'm going to Poland and commentating before Poland's playing Holland, Belgium and Wales in the League of Nations. And it'll be the same story because now everybody's going to be starting to get their pompoms out a little bit and saying what one or the other country can do, right? Yeah. We must come out of the group. Look, I get that. When you compete or go to any event, you go there to win it, because that's what you say, but you need to do well, right?
I mean, that's why you go. And you’ve got to try to do well. But you also have to understand what that means. So I think when I look at both countries, if I look at the U.S., it's a little bit different in the sense that it's such a young team. So we don't really know what we're going to get. And there's some beauty in that. I appreciate that, a little bit like a box of chocolates, isn't it? You never know what you're going to get with that team. It's young. I'm hoping that all the injuries that we've seen so far, Weston's coming back, although yesterday I saw that Sergiño Dest is injured once again. But it almost seems in a way, I don't want to say it doesn't matter, because the two that I've mentioned, Tyler Adams, of course they matter. You'd like to have them there. But it's kind of funny because this team has gotten used to being young, being deeper, right? We've seen that, was it last summer? Where we beat now Mexico, what? Was it three times straight? Right?
And we've been in the final of Nations League. We've beaten them in the final of Gold Cup with not necessarily our top team. What that means is that at least these young players kind of drive this train if you will. And it's for the first time where it's almost like a good club team, where in the past where your top players weren’t there, it would affect the mentality of the entire team. And I've been in those games. I remember when I was young, 17, 18, 19, 20, where our top guy was injured it would be like, "Oh my... " Amongst each other, "Who's going to score? How are we going to play?"
I think football's changing as we know it. All these substitutions right now, with the depth of squad that you see in the club level and international level, where most importantly managers for the first time in a long time starting to trust others. They no longer play a top player if they don't feel he's at 100%. They say, "No. I have somebody maybe not as good, but I trust him, I believe in him." That is what excites me about this U.S. team. It's young. We’ve finally turned the page because it was time, maybe it was time before for U.S. to maybe say thank you to some of the veterans and introduce these young guys and trust them. But with that, as we know, with young players on an average such a young team, it's going to be difficult. The group is not easy, that's for sure.
But I like being the underdog. I think we will be in some of those games and these young players will take it in stride. In terms of Poland, it's a last song for Robert Lewandowski, right? I mean, he's been good in qualifying. He's been good for the national team recently. Poland has a new manager. I think Poland has benefited a little bit because during the qualifying Paulo Sousa left. I don't like the way he's left it. But it was a relatively easy group for Poland with the exception of England. And Poland shot themselves in the foot against Hungary at home, that were missing the best players where Paulo Sousa basically said, "Robert, you don't have to play in this game." Zielinski who plays for Napoli, "You don't have to." And we lost that game and we got lucky. And when I say lucky, I'm sure everybody's going to understand because the first game was supposed to be against Russia in Moscow before you get to the final of the playoffs.
And because of the tragedy in Ukraine and all that, indirectly Poland benefited from that because they didn't have to play that game. They went straight to playing Sweden in that one game. Where, of course, Sweden had to play Czech Republic, I think, if I remember.
Grant Wahl:
Yeah.
Janusz Michallik:
So different road for Poland, they've gotten there. Even though I think most people, there was a period of time where I remember commentating those games saying, "Hmm, I don't know. I don't know." Because Sweden's been, I mean, one of those two teams that Poland never enjoyed playing. I mean, our record, even European Championships, we lost 3-2 in the summer. Poland lost 3-2. Anyway, I'm relatively optimistic as you know, first game, World Cup or European Championship, or Copa América, first group game, can't lose. If that happens, then I always think that you can.
Grant Wahl:
Interesting. There is a Polish American player, Gaga Slonina, 17-year old goalkeeper. He's starting for the Chicago Fire. He's been called into the U.S. men's national team camp on a few occasions now. Great future ahead of him, not fully committed to the U.S. or to Poland yet. And the Polish coach is in Chicago last week, presenting him with a Poland shirt, and he's going to call him in to Poland games. What's going to happen here? What do you see?
Janusz Michallik:
Well, I've been talking about it for obvious reasons, everybody's been asking about him, when I'm in Poland, when I'm here, with some people in U.S. soccer. Not at the highest level, but look, I mean, ultimately as always, it's his decision. I've had the same decision, but it was totally different, right? I mean, for me, back in those days, there's, I mean, no television. Because people ask me, "If you had a chance to play for Poland, would you?" And I said, "I would definitely give it a shot." And that would be something that I would say to him. He needs to go and see it for himself. And I know Gregg is open to that. I know he's been with others. I mean, obviously, ideal situation is the U.S. wants him. He's been in camp for the U.S. and maybe Gregg would say, "Well, yeah." Ideally would be if he commits to the United States, but you have to understand that, right?
You have to understand the fact that it's something that he wants to try. I mean, the difference, I was born in Poland, lived there until I was 17, came here. He's been born here but obviously his parents and everybody... I don't know him personally, I haven't had a chance to speak with him. I'm sure if he gets the call, which I think he will, for the Nations League games, I'll be commentating those games. I'll chat with him a little bit about just in general, just to say hi. But I could understand that he wants to see it for himself because, I mean, that's something that's obviously important to him, to his parents. He understands where he comes from or least his family. And he has an opportunity and he's being asked to come and see. I mean, he won't have to make a commitment on the spot.
I think the worst thing would be to say yes and then regret it that you've never done it before. And so I think if he does get the call, from everything that I know, and I used to talk to Gregg a lot, I talk to him a little bit less privately, but obviously talked to him being in the ESPN or Sirius radio. I think from what I understand he's open for players to go and see for themselves because he doesn't want to be the one that stops somebody's wish, right? And then in the end it's going to be his decision, right? And we don't know that. I don't think we should meddle with it. It's not our job, it's not our business. Whatever that decision will be, I think we have to respect it. I mean, who are we at least in the media and the press to say, "I can't believe him. What's he thinking?" I mean, come on. That's life. It's bigger than life sometimes, right?
Grant Wahl:
Yeah. Janusz Michallik works for ESPN and SiriusXM in the United States and TVP Sport in Poland. Janusz, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Janusz Michallik:
Thanks, Grant. I had a great time. I appreciate it.