The Interview: Jamie Carragher

The CBS Sports Champions League Studio Pundit on Liverpool & Man City, Doing U.S. Television, Why Centerback Is the Modern Game's Most Challenging Position and Much More

Apr 11, 2022

The timing couldn’t have been any better. I got to interview one of the best pundits in the game, Jamie Carragher of CBS Sports, on Monday of an enticing Champions League week, the day after another banger between Manchester City and Liverpool, with one more on the way between the two teams in the FA Cup semifinals this weekend and potentially another one in the Champions League final next month. Let’s just say there was a lot to talk about.

The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is one of the leading pundits in world soccer. Jamie Carragher is a regular on Sky Sports, and for the last three seasons he has done the men's UEFA Champions League studio with CBS Sports and Paramount+ in the United States. He won 11 trophies in a 17 year career with Liverpool, including the UEFA Champions League in the 2004-05 season. Jamie, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Jamie Carragher:

Thanks for having me, Grant. It's a pleasure.

Grant Wahl:

Lots to talk about here, but we are talking 24 hours after Man City 2, Liverpool 2. Now that you've had 24 hours to digest it, what stands out to you from this game?

Jamie Carragher:

Well, I think the actual intensity of Manchester City in both games, really, there was one earlier in the season at Anfield, and what we saw yesterday, where I think Liverpool have been quite fortunate to come out with a draw in both games. So I think they should feel an awful lot better, really. And I'm sure there'll be a little bit of frustration at Manchester City's training ground this morning, that they should really be four points clear of Liverpool. They should have won the game yesterday.

So I actually think it's a much better point for Liverpool, really. And even though Man City have got the point in front, I just think psychologically it was a big result yesterday for Liverpool that they're still in there. They would love to have won, but on the back of the performance, I think there'll be a lot more frustration and disappointment at Manchester City that they're not further ahead. And there's still a lot of games and points to play for.

“Centerback now must be the most difficult position on the pitch, because especially at the top level, you've got to be able to handle the ball, you've got to receive the ball in your own six-yard box, 18-yard box. And one slip, one misplaced pass, and it's in the back of your net. The top teams now are pushing far higher up a pitch than we ever did. When I watched Man City-Liverpool yesterday, I can't actually quite believe what I'm seeing when I see how high the back fours are. So every ball over the top is a race, is a sprint. And now fullbacks are not fullbacks. They're playmakers. They're wingers. So centerbacks get exposed a lot more 1v1. So I just think there's a lot more protection for the defenders. I mean, Paolo [Maldini] was obviously one of the greatest players of all time, and he would cope no problem whatsoever with the demands of today. But I think I'd find it tough. I think I would.” — Jamie Carragher

Grant Wahl:

I feel like Liverpool-City has become the defining club rivalry in this era globally. But I also feel like it's different from, say, the Real Madrid-Barcelona rivalry of a decade ago, especially the Mourinho years when it got pretty ugly at times. Liverpool-City always seems like it's an entertaining game. And I'm wondering, why do you think that is?

Jamie Carragher:

Well, I think that comes down to the two managers, the way you want to play the game. You just mentioned Mourinho there. Whenever José would go to a top game, he would make it a war. He would not be interested in the spectacle. I think the two managers we have here now don't want to take a backward step and don't want to be seen as the guy who cedes anything to the rival. "I have to change for you." No. It's, "I'm going to play my way. I believe in my philosophy, and we're good enough and I'm good enough to take you on."

And I think at this moment right now, I think there's only Liverpool, or maybe one or two other teams, maybe Bayern Munich, in world football who would take City on and play the way they play and not change anything. There'll be a few tactical tweaks, of course, when you play different opposition, but there was no way Jürgen Klopp was going to go to the Etihad yesterday and play counterattacking football. That was never going to happen. So I think that's the big reason why these are such entertaining games and we always get goals, because neither of the two managers are prepared to change tack to the other.

Fútbol with Grant Wahl is a reader-supported soccer newsletter. You can sign up (free or paid) to get my posts in your inbox. Quality journalism requires resources. The best way to support me and my work is by taking out a paid subscription now. Free 7-day trials are available.

Grant Wahl:

We're going to get another Liverpool-City this weekend in the FA Cup semifinals. When it comes to the Champions League, do you think Liverpool and City are on a collision course to meet in the final?

Jamie Carragher:

Yes, I think so. But it is a tough competition and anything can happen very quickly. Very rarely can we predict from the quarterfinal stage on to what the final will be. We all feel what the two best teams are in Europe this season, and if you can keep them apart, you think that would be a dream final. But even though they are the two best teams in world football right now, a refereeing decision, a mistake, an injury, a red card ... that's why it's so hard to win the Champions League.

And that's why it's been really difficult for Pep. Since his Barcelona days he's had Bayern Munich, he's had Manchester City now, and he's still not been able to get his hands on it. A lot of that is to do with really defining moments that can change a game. And I hope for that final, not particularly on the performance of Man City yesterday, but I think there's more chance of Liverpool being there than Manchester City right now.

Grant Wahl:

Why?

Jamie Carragher:

Well, I think Liverpool are virtually through against Benfica. So I think Liverpool are in the semifinal. I think Atlético Madrid away is going to be a tougher game than maybe a lot of people think for Man City. We know it's a tough game, and people keep saying Atlético Madrid have got to come out and play, but I'm not sure they will. I think if you said to Atlético Madrid that after an hour it'll still be 0-0, I think they'd be happy with that. I think they're prepared to go to extra time, they're prepared to go to penalties. They'll make it horrible. I think the atmosphere will be electric in that stadium, because they were delighted with the 1-0 defeat. I'd still back Man City to go through, but I think it's going to be a really tough proposition.

Grant Wahl:

So of the teams that are still alive in the Champions League, which one do you think has the best chance of ruining the party for City and Liverpool? Real Madrid? Bayern Munich? Someone else?

Jamie Carragher:

I'd probably say Real Madrid because they're Real Madrid, in some ways. I wouldn't say I've ever felt for the last two or three years they are the best team in Europe. They had that great spell under Zidane. Obviously a lot of the players are getting a little bit older now. But I've written them off so much in the last two or three years working with CBS, and they've proved me wrong so often. They've never gone on to win it, but knocking Liverpool out last season, I didn't see that coming. I didn't see the first leg result against Chelsea.

And a lot of that, I feel, is they are Real Madrid. That history in the European Cup, that belief that they're supposed to win Champions Leagues I really think helps them through. Of course, the coach they've got is the most successful coach in Champions League history. And yeah, they could be the team to put a spanner in the works for either Manchester City in the semifinal or Liverpool in the final.

Grant Wahl:

So it's interesting, in the Premier League, obviously, Liverpool remains a point behind City with seven games to play. I got some flak on Twitter yesterday for saying that I actually think Liverpool have got a decent shot to win the league. And people are like, "Well, look at the teams that both City and Liverpool are playing the rest of the way. City's actually got the advantage." Where do you stand on this?

Jamie Carragher:

No, I mean, I think it's a lot closer than what people are thinking. In terms of names on paper, you'd say it's probably a little bit easier for City, but I go back to psychologically yesterday. The fact Liverpool came out with a point where they didn't deserve it, I think there'll be frustration at City today. And don't forget, as these games get ticked off, and if Liverpool just even stay a point behind when there's three or four games to go, psychologically Man City were 14 points clear at one stage. I mean, they've got it all to lose in some ways.

For Liverpool it's still a pressurized situation, but no one expected this. And when Liverpool drew away at Chelsea 2-2, I think in January, everyone said the league was done. I was one of them. So I think for Liverpool, they've just got to treat it as almost like, "We've won the league before. We're in this position. We can't believe it, but we'll give everything we've got." And if City were to lose it, everyone will point back to the fact they were 14 points clear, which is the biggest margin anyone has ever been in front and not won the league. So I'm going to start beating that drum.

Grant Wahl:

So you're associated with Liverpool almost as much as anybody. We're in the seventh season of the Jürgen Klopp era at Liverpool. You've observed him closely. What are the keys in your mind to what Jürgen Klopp has achieved at Liverpool?

Jamie Carragher:

Well, the key is he's got absolute belief and confidence in himself. And you'd expect that for a manager of that quality. But the most important thing is I think the players and the supporters have the utmost belief and confidence in the manager, that whatever he says, whatever team he picks, everybody backs him. You never hear anyone being critical behind the scenes. Even last season, Liverpool obviously had a poor season by Jürgen Klopp's standards, but obviously we know there was a lot of injuries involved. But at one stage, they lost six games at home in a row.

I don't think there was one Liverpool supporter ever saying that Jürgen Klopp still wasn't the right man. And to lose six games at home for Liverpool is unbelievable. And as I said, we know the problems that they had center back wise. That was a big part of it. But I don't think at any stage anyone would ever question this manager in any way, shape or form, no matter what happens this season or over the next two seasons which he's got left. I think if Liverpool never one another trophy between now and the end of Jürgen Klopp's contract, every Liverpool supporter would still want him to sign a new contract.

Grant Wahl:

Do you think he will?

Jamie Carragher:

I'm coming round to the idea that he will. I think it's almost been said that he won't. And he's always been seven years at a club, so it was almost a bonus that it's going to end up being nine at Liverpool. But what makes me think he will, the closer the time gets to it, is number one, what is he going to do? He obviously is obsessed with football. People talk about international football, but would that satisfy Jürgen Klopp? One game a month? One game every two months? I'm not so sure.

And Liverpool wasn't a job where the team was there ready. He had to build it. And it probably took him three or four years to get the team he wanted playing the way he wanted. And if this team is still performing the way it is now in two years time, I just don't know how, after all the work he's put in, you would pass that team to somebody else. And the other thing that makes me think he may stay is when he left Borussia Dortmund he said he wanted a sabbatical. He was managing Liverpool two months later.

Grant Wahl:

I have a hard time seeing him doing the international game right now. Maybe down the road, coaching Germany, but I just can't see him handling so few games-

Jamie Carragher:

I don't see him being suited to ... where do you leave Liverpool to go? I don't see him being suited to a Real Madrid, a Barcelona. I think his whole career has been with a team fighting against somebody, or maybe somebody's got more money, or the city coming together. And I think obviously Mainz and Dortmund who are fighting Bayern Munich, we're fighting Man City that are financially a lot stronger. So are Manchester United. And a lot of Liverpool is about the crowd and the intensity of everybody being together. If he went to maybe a Bayern Munich, I don't know if he can go there if you've been Dortmund manager, or a Barcelona, Real Madrid, I'm just not sure that's the type there. I just think he's got so much power at Liverpool. He's a God. He's going to be getting great wages and good luck to him. And he's got one of the best teams in the world. I think it's hard to walk away from.

Grant Wahl:

So a while back I had Paolo Maldini on my podcast, and I asked him a question that I want to ask you about central defenders in the modern game. And I asked him if he thought there were fewer truly world-class central defenders in the game today than there were 20 years ago. And he said yes. What do you think?

Jamie Carragher:

Well, I'd never like to disagree with Paolo Maldini, but what I would say is it's a completely different game now. It feels like you're watching a different sport at times when you judge centerbacks from 30 years ago or 20 years ago. Because I think centerback now must be the most difficult position on the pitch, because especially at the top level, you've got to be able to handle the ball, you've got to receive the ball in your own six-yard box, 18-yard box. And one slip, one misplaced pass, and it's in the back of your net. The top teams now are pushing far higher up a pitch than we ever did. Maybe it was different for Paolo, playing under Sacchi and catching you offside and being really compact.

But when I watched Man City-Liverpool yesterday, I can't actually quite believe what I'm seeing when I see how high the back fours are. So every ball over the top is a race, is a sprint. And now fullbacks are not fullbacks. They're playmakers. They're wingers. So centerbacks get exposed a lot more 1v1. So I just think there's a lot more protection for the defenders. When obviously Paolo was playing, when I was playing. I mean, Paolo was obviously one of the greatest players of all time, and he would cope no problem whatsoever with the demands of today.

But I think I'd find it tough. I think I would. And I just think we're watching a different game. We expect so much more from defenders, so we are going to get more mistakes from defenders. So maybe in a certain light, we think, "Oh, he's not as good because he's made that mistake or he made that mistake." And maybe a Baresi or Maldini when he was playing weren't making those type of mistakes. But I don't think they were asked to play the way centerbacks play now. I just think we would've seen a lot more mistakes from players who we remember as absolute legends in those positions.

Grant Wahl:

I do think the modern game is so different for the reasons you just laid out there. If you had to pick your favorite centerback in the world today, who would it be?

Jamie Carragher:

Oh, Virgil van Dijk by a mile. My favorite centerback of all time has always been Franco Baresi. I used to watch the old AC Milan teams. It was organization, the pushing up, his intensity. His performance in the World Cup final in 1994 was one of the greatest performances you'll ever see from any player. The fact that he was up against Bebeto, Romário. He'd had a knee operation after the first game of the tournament and then didn't play another minute and then played in the final. That tells you everything about the man. But I think when Virgil van Dijk finishes playing, I think I'd put the two of them in my best-ever 11 I've seen. Because I just think Virgil van Dijk now, he's the best in the air, he's the quickest, he's the best on the ball. There's nothing Virgil van Dijk cannot do. And for me, I think he's the best by a long way right now.

Grant Wahl:

So I've really enjoyed your work, as with other people, on the CBS Paramount+ studio show for Champions League. And I'm wondering, have you noticed any differences doing TV for the United States compared to TV in England?

Jamie Carragher:

Oh yes. It's party time in the States. Feels like it. We get into probably a lot more heated debates, discussions, arguments on English TV. And I think on the American TV it's a bit more lighthearted, and it's a different show. And to be honest, I love it. And the reason I love it is because it is different, and it gives me something different rather than doing the same stuff all the time.

At times we can get serious and debate things, especially when it's Champions League, because it really is cutthroat. Big teams that you expect to win are not doing well, are spending lots of money. The Champions League for me is the greatest football competition in the world. Bigger than international football. I wouldn't say bigger, but 100% it's better quality of football. And yeah, so it gives you that nice balance of enjoying yourself at different times, but also talking about the best players in the world.

Grant Wahl:

Now we've already seen some of the English tabloids say England got a good World Cup draw, in part because they drew the United States. That said, my friend, the U.S. has never lost to England in a World Cup. How do you see this England team and its chances at the World Cup?

Jamie Carragher:

I think the England team will go close again. I think it's a brilliant draw for Gareth Southgate. It really is. And that's not just because the United States are in there. But I don't think you could pick a better draw. I think America would feel that as well, really. The actual draw, I think they'd be confident they've got a great chance of going through as well. And yeah, my worry is that England ... what's happened in the last two tournaments is the draw has really gone for them and they've had a really good pathway through to a semifinal, a final.

And whenever they've come up against real quality, they've lost. And that would be my worry for this England team. There are people who project the team they will get in the quarterfinals is France. I think that'd be the end of the tournament. But it never works like that. It never works the way we expect it to work. So if England get a decent draw ... But my fear is that as soon as they play real top quality, or someone on the same level, or someone just above them, I think that could be the end of the tournament.

Grant Wahl:

So we are an American show here, and I wanted to get your sense of an American now coaching in the Premier League, Jesse Marsch at Leeds United. What are your initial thoughts on Marsch and how he goes about things?

Jamie Carragher:

I think he's done brilliantly well. I really do. To come in after Marcelo Bielsa, he was almost a godlike figure at Leeds. But credit to Leeds as a football club as well. They made a brave decision to change a manager who was loved by the supporters, and I think it's saved them from going down. And I think that all the credit's got to go to Jesse Marsch. I think it really has.

I think he's improved them. There's no doubt about that. They're not as open. He changed the man-marking system, which was great for us analyzing football, because it was different, we could talk about different things, but in terms of the setup for Leeds, it was causing them huge problems. So I think in that first game away at Leicester, they were very unlucky not to get something from the game. I did it when they were 2-0 down at Wolves and they came back and won 3-2. So I think he's been a great addition to the Premier League, Jesse Marsch at this moment. And it'll be really interesting to see how he does next season and what type of player he wants to bring in in the summer and almost evolve the team even more to his way of thinking.

Grant Wahl:

So continuing the American theme here, I happen to live in New York City right near the Liverpool bar Carragher's, where I've had a few pints over the years. What's the story of your connection with the bar? And I know you visited at least once. What happened when you did that?

Jamie Carragher:

Yeah. I've been there a few times, really. It just comes from the owner. He's a guy called Brian. He's an Irish guy, Liverpool fan, who's got about four or five bars in New York. So I don't know where the connection come from, if he met my dad in Liverpool or what it was, but I remember meeting him in Liverpool and he said he had this idea for a Carragher's bar. And I thought, "Oh, that sounds good. A bar named after me in New York." It doesn't happen too often for lads from Liverpool. I can assure you of that.

But no, it's brilliant. It's like a shrine to Liverpool and myself really. So I've probably been about four or five times. My dad's just got back from there a couple of weeks ago. So it's great. And anyone who ever goes to New York from Liverpool is always on the phone asking me to get them in or get them free drinks. So I'm not sure how much money's being made, because everyone seems to be getting everything for free at the moment.

Grant Wahl:

Now, as we speak, Everton is four points above the relegation zone. I know you have a childhood connection to the club. Could you explain what that connection is? And are you legitimately concerned about Everton and relegation?

Jamie Carragher:

Yes, I'm concerned about them. I am. I don't want Everton to go down. And that's nothing to do with my connection to the club as a kid, when I was a huge supporter. I used to go watch Everton home and away. But I just don't think it'd be good for the city. I really don't. I'd miss derby games, which I absolutely love. I think Everton are a huge club in the Premier League and in English football.

And I think you want to keep those big, strong traditional clubs in the premier league. And that's not just Everton. I was delighted when Leeds came back. I was actually speaking to somebody today about Nottingham Forest doing well in the Championship. That's another huge club who have won two European Cups. You want them back in the Premier League. And yeah, Everton's the same as that.

I think the result they got at the weekend against Manchester United makes a huge difference, especially with Burnley losing. Because I actually did feel before the Burnley game, if they lost to Burnley they’d go down. They're not out of the woods by any means. They've a really tough fixture list. But they've just got a little bit of breathing space at the moment, and yeah, I hope they stay up. They're supposed to be building a stadium that's coming in the next two or three years, which will be great for Everton and the actual city itself, which I'm really passionate about. So no, I really want Everton to stay up.

Grant Wahl:

So we're going to finish up here with what I call the Rapid-Fire quiz. I've done this with a bunch of prominent former players, including recently Ian Wright. I did it with Paolo Maldini. So, rapid fire here. We'll start. What did you achieve in football that you are the most proud of and why?

Jamie Carragher:

I have got more European appearances than any other English player in history. I'm sure that will change in the next few years, but right now I'm at the top of that list. When I think of some of the players who've played obviously in European competitions for all the great clubs in our country, to be top of that list is something I'm really proud of.

Grant Wahl:

Who was the best player you ever played against and why?

Jamie Carragher:

Thierry Henry. He was the best player that's ever graced the Premier League, and that Arsenal team was the best team I played against in the Premier League, from 2002 to 2004. And yeah, I came up against Thierry a lot. I come up against him a lot now on the CBS show. But he was a great player. He was the best player in the world, I think, for two or three years. I don't think he ever won the Ballon d'Or, but I think for two or three years, around that era, for me, he was the best player in the world.

Grant Wahl:

Who was the player you most admired in your career and why?

Jamie Carragher:

Ooh, most admired? That's an interesting question. You threw me there a little bit. I wasn't ready for something like that. I mean, the first player that I'm thinking of Steven Gerrard, but I normally answer that with the best player. Probably the reason I'd say I admired Stevie was the fact that he was so loyal to Liverpool, and we were never top dogs in our own country. And he had the opportunity to go to Real Madrid, Inter Milan almost every season, and he didn't.

And also the fact, a little bit similar to me, but a lot more for Stevie, where you're a local player, you play your whole career for the one club, there's a lots of ups and downs. And to be seen as the guy, certainly with Stevie, to carry the weight of the city at times on his shoulders. He was always seen as the guy who'd have to produce something for us to win a cup competition or qualify for the Champions League. And that was a lot to carry for a local player with your family and friends around you for 15 or 16 years. So I'd say Steven Gerrard.

Grant Wahl:

Best manager you ever had and why?

Jamie Carragher:

Toss up between Gérard Houllier and Rafa Benítez. Both completely different people. I had them six years each, so 12 years of my Liverpool career was with those two. I won more trophies with Gérard Houllier, the club and myself won more trophies under Gérard. But Rafa, we won the big one. We won the Champions League. And possibly ... well, not possibly, I think it is the most famous game in the club's history, and will possibly be in the top four or five games in football history, really, I would imagine.

So to be part of that was something special. I saw Rafa yesterday at the Etihad. He was working for the TV2 in Norway. So I had a good chat with him then. And yet Rafa was a tactician. Gérard Houllier was more about man management and motivating you. So putting the two of them together, you've got the best manager of all time, I think. So I never split them, because they both were great for my career. And all my great memories at Liverpool came under those two managers.

Grant Wahl:

Got two more for you and you're off the hot seat. What is the best advice you have ever received and why?

Jamie Carragher:

People always ask me for advice, or if I do a talk, they say ... you always struggle for words at the end. What's the one about hard work and talent? I always like that one.

Grant Wahl:

Is that the one where hard work-

Jamie Carragher:

Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.

Grant Wahl:

Yep. Yep. You got it. Okay. Last-

Jamie Carragher:

It didn't roll off the tongue. (laughs)

Grant Wahl:

Last one. Who is your favorite player in the world today and why?

Jamie Carragher:

Who's my favorite player? I would say Kevin De Bruyne. Yeah, I'd go with De Bruyne. I mean, listen, I don't think he is the best player right now. I think he's the best midfield player. He's definitely in the best five or six players in the world. I just like the way he comes across. His interviews, he's very low-maintenance. He doesn't act like a superstar, but he is a superstar. Just when I watch him play, even yesterday, he's still a bit ... I mean, I don't even know if he got Man of the Match. Even though I was probably part of the decision who gave Man of the Match.

But you see the last minute of the game, the chance for Mahrez, the pass from De Bruyne with his left foot, and he's probably knackered towards the end of the game. I just love watching him playing, and I just wish he wasn't in a Man City shirt and he was actually in a Liverpool shirt. Because obviously I had the debate with Micah on CBS last week. I said he's the greatest player who's ever played for Manchester City. And I would stand by that and argue that with anyone. I think he is City's greatest ever player. And I think he's one of the greatest players to ever play in the Premier League.

Grant Wahl:

Jamie Carragher is a regular on Sky Sports, and for the last three seasons has done the men's UEFA Champions League studio for CBS Sports and Paramount+ in the United States. Jamie, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Jamie Carragher:

Thanks, Grant.

Available for iOS and Android