The Interview: Brent Maximin
The Manchester United Lifer (and Former Managing Editor of SB Nation's The Busby Babe) Performs the Autopsy on United's Post-Sir Alex Ferguson Era
I can’t help but start laughing when my friend Brent Maximin starts talking about Manchester United. Always I apologize, and always he tells me it’s OK, what’s happened to the world’s biggest sports team is kind of funny, especially for those of us who aren’t United fans. So after United’s ugly 4-0 loss to Brighton over the weekend, it seemed like a good time to interview Brent about how we got here.
The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.
Grant Wahl:
Our guest now is a good friend of mine here in New York City. Brent Maximin is a developmental psychologist and professor at Brooklyn College. He's also part of the group I watch Champions League games with, usually at Smithfield Hall. He also used to write about soccer at SB Nation, where he was the managing editor at the Busby Babe. And he is a diehard fan of Manchester United, which we'll be talking about today. You can find him on Twitter at @BrentMaximin. Brent, it is great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on the show.
Brent Maximin:
Yeah. Good to see you. Thanks for having me on.
Grant Wahl:
Yeah, I'm fired up for this. We should have done it a long time ago, actually. But it's funny, I've never actually asked you this question, how did you first become a Manchester United fan?
Brent Maximin:
Yeah, so I guess the romantic part of that would be to say that I fell in love with Eric Cantona, like everybody else in my generation probably who's a Manchester United fan. But the other part of that answer is that in my formative years Manchester United were very, very good at football. And as a kid, the team that's winning all the time, that's playing in the fun games, that's the most appealing. And then Dwight Yorke signed from Aston Villa in 1998. And that was the end of that for me. I was never going to support anybody else.
Brent Maximin on watching every minute of Manchester United this season: “I don't know if it's Stockholm syndrome, but I'm trapped. Every weekend I say, ‘I'm not waking up to watch this. I'm not doing it. I should go outside. Let me call my loved ones. Let me read, fold some laundry.’ So many things I could be doing. And I couldn't believe I watched [the 4-0 loss to Brighton] yesterday. You know, I was tired. I was out the night before. I woke up early that morning to do some stuff I was doing. I had every right to just take a nap before we had dinner last night. And instead I watched this embarrassing, embarrassing performance.”
Grant Wahl:
I mean, the Trinidad connection, right?
Brent Maximin:
Correct.
Grant Wahl:
Were you born in Trinidad? I should know this.
Brent Maximin:
Yeah, born and raised in Trinidad and Tobago.
Grant Wahl:
Okay. I have a funny Dwight Yorke story I'll tell you someday. Actually I can tell it to you right now. It was right before the '98 World Cup and the U.S. men's team before they went and embarrassed themselves [in France] had a big sendoff party here in New York City. I think it was the old All-Star Cafe in Times Square. And Dwight Yorke was trying to get in and they weren't letting him in. It was one of those only-in-America things where he didn't get recognized and they were literally not letting him in. So finally someone who actually knew soccer got Dwight Yorke in, but it was absurd and awful.
Brent Maximin:
Somehow I could have guessed that this Dwight Yorke story was going to involve a party of some kind.
Grant Wahl:
That too. That too. It's good to get that perspective on how long you have been a Manchester United fan, going back to the ‘90s. Present day, things not going so well. We're coming off United's 4-0 loss to Brighton over the weekend. One more league game left in this miserable season. What on earth happened to this once-great club?
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Brent Maximin:
Man. I think United have been mismanaged for a long time. The Glazers have been bad stewards of the club. And the chickens didn't come home to roost until United no longer had the ultimate paper-over-crack solution in Sir Alex Ferguson. Because for the several years, eight years, that Sir Alex was there under Glazer ownership, there was a lot of under-investment. The structure of the club got left behind in terms of youth recruitment, in terms of the backroom staff, just in terms of the football structure.
But you can afford to do those things and still be successful when you have a truly unique figure in football history. And once he was gone, that structure was no longer in place. And then you end up with people running the club who had no idea how to modernize a football club. And that's how you get David Moyes, who is a bad fit, not properly backed, got a couple of players, then he's gone. Then a manager with a totally different philosophy comes in, is sort of backed, but he gets players for his system. He doesn't work, get him out. A manager with another totally different philosophy comes in.
Both of these who are past their best, get players, some of the players that he wants, he's not fully backed either. So you get this squad now and it’s basically signed badly by committee, and that is not fit for purpose. And yeah, I think it's just years of mismanagement and no clear vision and no clear commitment to a long-term project. And that's how we end up here at a fresh rock bottom.
Grant Wahl:
Is this the low point after 4-0 on the weekend?
Brent Maximin:
You know what, you would think so. But I think the Liverpool and City results early this season were probably my low point as a supporter. And at the point where there was very little that could have been salvaged from this season. Obviously it's terrible. This is the most successful team in the history of England. And they're a bunch of talented players, supposedly. The so-called biggest sport and institution on earth, and Brighton who have nothing to play for, by the way, they're not fighting relegation. They're not qualifying for Europe. They're just out there having fun and ripped us to pieces.
This is the kind of game at the end of the season, you're like, we should be able to run up the score in this because Brighton's players are already on holiday, right? They've gotten their survival bonuses. They're not getting into Europe. The only thing they're playing for is just to finish up the season comfortably mid-table. And 4-0 might have flattered us. So, terrible. But the Liverpool and City defeats midseason, I think my low point just as a supporter, nevermind this season. So at this point, I can't be hurt anymore.
Grant Wahl:
And do you watch every minute of every game? Or do you get fed up sometimes and just say, "I'm not doing it."
Brent Maximin:
Unfortunately. Unfortunately, yes. I don't know if it's Stockholm syndrome, but I'm trapped. Every weekend I say, "I'm not waking up to watch this. I'm not doing it. I should go outside. Let me call my loved ones. Let me read, fold some laundry." So many things I could be doing. And I still, I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe I watched that yesterday. You know, I was tired. I was out the night before. I woke up early that morning to do some stuff I was doing. I had every right to just take a nap before we had dinner last night. And instead I watched this embarrassing, embarrassing performance.
Grant Wahl:
Yeah. I don't mean to laugh. I'm sorry.
Brent Maximin:
I mean, look, you have to laugh, right? The thing I say now is, United rule England and Fergie rule England with an iron fist for 20 years. And all those people whose childhoods and teenage years we ruined, all the Arsenal fans and Liverpool fans and City fans, they're getting it back now in blood. Because all that hubris after all those years, we are paying for it right now.
Grant Wahl:
Do the Glazers understand how big the problem is? Or that they're the problem or part of the problem?
Brent Maximin:
I don't think so. And I don't think they care. The club is still wildly profitable, even with the amount of debt that they placed on the club. And if the rumors are to be believed about what price they would ask for, I don't think they have any intention of selling right now. And if they did, it would be for something ... What is Chelsea supposed to be going for this week?
Grant Wahl:
Good question. I thought it was $2.5 billion?
Brent Maximin:
2.5, right. Apparently the Glazers wouldn't even turn their heads for less than $4 billion. And maybe that is not even realistic. So I think they were comfortable being just successful enough for a while. And now they're probably realizing that the rot has set in a little bit too much and they need to actually achieve some success here before the brand is too far gone. Because I think that is something they do care about, is the brand of Manchester United.
As far as whether they know they're the problem, I don't think so, because you wouldn't have had the last several years of, "Okay, it's the manager’s fault, so get the manager out." You back him in the first window, the second window you tell him, "No, make do with what you have." And then of course he fails, then you sack him. New manager comes in, back him in the first window. He does okay. Second window comes around, you don't back him. You tell him, make do with what he has, he fails. And then you repeat. So yeah, hopefully by now they realize that the way they've been running the club and the people they've empowered have been the problem. And I think that's why you see in this kind of root-and-branch upheaval happening this summer.
Grant Wahl:
What's your sense of Ralf Rangnick and his whole thing with this club, and some of the stuff he said publicly recently? Obviously he's not going to be the manager next season, Erik ten Hag is. Is it still unclear also too if Rangnick's going to continue as a consultant?
Brent Maximin:
Now it's clear that he's going to be a consultant. It's not clear exactly how much influence he will have because clubs have consultants all the time that you just don't know the name of. I think the thing that's been reported in the media is that he'll be working six days a month or something like that. Which now that he's going to be the manager of the Austrian men's national team, that probably means a Zoom call once a week, Microsoft Teams.
I like Ralf Rangnick because he has clear ideas. If it's one thing he's provided, because he clearly hasn't provided results on the pitch, he's provided a really sober and sobering assessment of where this squad is. And that's hard to hear. But he was almost perfect for that one, because of his personality and two, because he's not going to be here next year. I never got the sense that he was really interviewing for the job. I know early on of course, he was asked the question and he said, "Yeah, it's possible." But I don't think most people ever had that sense that there was a chance he would continue permanently.
So I think him being a lame duck, being on a short-term contract and also having a longer-term purview with his consulting deal that's going to start at the end of season, I don't think he was as invested in getting results this season at all costs. And also I think not really invested in being the guy to take a lot of arrows from the media. Because he's gone there and said, "Look, this team isn't that good. I wanted a striker in January, they told me no. And now we're not scoring goals."
So as a manager, he's been all right. He's been a disappointment, I would say. I don't think it's been any worse than Solskjær might have been because you look back at the end of Solskjær's tenure, it was just terrible. But I think it's also been maybe needed, I think. There's no over-performance and the players that maybe kept Solskjær in a job because Solskjær's thing was just giving players individual responsibility. So Harry Maguire, Luke Shaw, Bruno Fernandes, Marcus Rashford, the best stretches in the Solskjær era, probably those four players especially, who thrive in that somewhat controlled chaos, did really well. Because Bruno and Marcus Rashford, when they were in form, are players who could just make something happen, right?
Harry Maguire has taken in a lot of criticism this season, rightfully, because he's been bad. But last season and through the Euros, incredible, incredible form. And he was operating with a joke of a midfield in front of him, right? He had to step into midfield a lot to move the ball. Luke Shaw getting up and down the left wing. Again, it's not like a clearly defined system. These are just players who shine in that kind of scenario.
And for one reason or another, all of those players have either been unavailable or crap or both. So there's nowhere left to hide this season. And yeah, I think that's probably been needed. Because even if we had snuck in fourth, which we could have if we were even remotely a serious team, we could have gotten fourth because Spurs and Arsenal are not anything special. But we're not a serious team. So I think that lays it there that this squad is not good. We need a hard reset.
Grant Wahl:
So you're expecting massive changes. I mean, how extensive, I guess, would be the question for next season?
Brent Maximin:
That's a good question. In previous years, especially under Ed Woodward, results started going south, by now we would see reports in the media of how much the war chest is. That's a way to get the fans onside. It's like, "Oh, new manager is going to have 150 million pounds to spend." We haven't really seen that as much, which I think is probably good. But I would expect that at a minimum, three major signings. It's going to take longer than a year to get the team into what Ten Hag wants. And I think he'll probably have to depend on some players that he doesn't rate. And he will also have to get the best out of some players who might not be fit for purpose.
But there's going to be massive change just because of how many players are out of contract and who are most likely going to be moved on. You have Matić is leaving, Juan Mata, Jesse Lingard, probably Paul Pogba even though it's not certain, Edinson Cavani. And then you have Phil Jones, Eric Bailly probably going to leave. So that's already an entire bench, right, in a given matchday squad that's now probably going to be gone. So you're going to have to replace those. You're going to have some youth players who will become part of the team.
And I think there has to be at a minimum three first-11-standard players. Players who can contribute immediately, even though I'm not expecting us to be serious title contenders next season. Obviously I will say that after we win the first preseason game, after we beat Sydney in Australia, I'm going to be like, "We're winning it all. We're going to win the working man's treble next season." League and FA Cup and Conference League. It's because I'm shameless, but I'm not expecting us to be that good. But I'm definitely expecting that starting 11 next season will look significantly different. And I think in two seasons, very different.
Grant Wahl:
You didn't mention Cristiano Ronaldo. Will he be back next season? Do you want him back next season?
Brent Maximin:
I didn't want him in the first place, but he's here. I think for those of us who saw from the beginning that this was not a good idea, because he's not the player he used to be, and you ask Juventus fans. Yeah, he delivered scores, but it comes with a cost of what the team is able to do. And he's had an incredible career. Obviously, he was great for United the first time around, but he's not that guy anymore. And he had a good stretch in this calendar year for the last couple of months. But the way he played on Saturday against Brighton, is the way he played for months, right? Static, not involved, not offering much.
So I don't know. I think he'll be back because he doesn't have a lot of options. This is probably his last contract at a major European club. Maybe after he's out of contract a year from now, if he has something left in the tank, maybe PSG makes a flashy signing. Maybe he wants to play a year back in Portugal. But I don't think he has options. I think all the talk of him deciding his future is a lot of bluffing. Where else is he going to go?
Grant Wahl:
I thought maybe at some point you would start your Twitter campaign to bring him to Inter Miami. But I don't know if he actually still wants, or can get into the United States, which is a separate conversation.
Brent Maximin:
Yeah. Which is the real reason why I didn't want United to sign him in the first place. I think that's added to the just overall bad vibes of this season is just seeing people cheer for this guy who's been credibly accused of assault. And now we're supposed to cheer him on as if nothing has happened or if it doesn't matter what footballers do, which is just not true. It's not like any other job, right? Your job is predicated on public support. And yeah, if Inter Miami wants him, let him and his lawyers sort it out. I'll pack his bags myself.
Grant Wahl:
And Erik ten Hag, I’ve got to admit, I haven't watched a ton of Ajax, some in Champions League. Obviously they made a great run a couple years ago, made a good run this year. I think I watched one of the rivalry games in the Dutch league this year. And look, they’ve played good soccer under him and done things that Ajax hadn't done for a while. What's your sense of the hire, and of him?
Brent Maximin:
I like it. I think he was of the available options, maybe Luis Enrique, he would've been my first choice. But he was never going to be available with this World Cup, him not being able to join until after the World Cup. So I'm excited about Ten Hag. Obviously, he's talked about as the best young manager in Europe. And he's the same age as Mauricio Pochettino. So he's not exactly, he's not 29. I think it's a mistake to think of him as an Ajax purist.
One of the things that was defining at his time at Ajax is the fact that he was not really beholden to that. Ajax had struggled for a couple of years and he came in and realized, hey, this is the squad we have, we're going to play in a more pragmatic style to get the best out of what we have. This team, I haven't watched a lot, but I've watched him enough over the years and you could see this style has evolved. And I think that's promising, because it means he's adaptable. And I think you have to be in the environment that Manchester United is right now.
I'm sure he's been promised a lot. I would be surprised if he gets everything that he's been promised because no manager who's been here since Sir Alex has, according to them, have gotten the things that they expected. So the fact that he is flexible, the fact that he's a little bit of a bastard by all accounts. And I think we need a bastard. Somebody who will push back in both directions, who will challenge the players and also challenge his bosses, I think is necessary because United is in a mess top to bottom. So yeah, I'm cautiously optimistic.
Grant Wahl:
Is Paul Pogba going to go to a different club and play more like he has for France and Juventus, like immediately?
Brent Maximin:
Probably. Yeah, that would be my expectation. Because of the clubs that he's linked to, whether it's Real Madrid, whether it's back at Juventus, whether it's PSG, he'll probably immediately be in a better situation on and off the pitch. I think one of the things with “France Pogba” is that his style, you just get more time on the ball in international football. And especially for the type of player he is, he will always shine more in international football.
Also, France is one of the best teams in the world, right? Every position is filled by a world-class or near world-class player. And at Juventus, for France, he had and has a consistent position, clear responsibilities. That's never been the case at United. That hasn't even been the case at United in the last three matches before he got injured. He played in different positions and in different systems. And not to make excuses for him because he's been a disappointment in his own right. But I would expect, even though I think maybe injuries recently may have taken something away from him, yeah, I would expect he would, wherever he turns up next, he would look immediately better.
Grant Wahl:
And do you see this, if Man United under Erik ten Hag gets better again, how long a process do you see that taking? At what point do you think, even if things go well, how many years would it take to be in a position to win the Premier League and win Champions League?
Brent Maximin:
I mean, if we look at Klopp with Liverpool, because Liverpool had Kenny Dalglish and Roy Hodgson who were not the right hires. And you had Brendan Rodgers who, I mean, I think Brendan Rodgers is a fraud. But his team got close, and then they got Klopp in, and that squad was bloated and imbalanced too. And not fit for the kind of football Klopp wanted to play. But it didn't take him that long. It took him a couple of seasons. So I think if you're supported, if you have the right structure in place, a club of United’s size, and Rangnick has said this as well, it should take two years.
So if in two seasons we're at the same place or further away, I'd be worried. But it could even be faster, because this is the way of the world, right? When you're rich, you can always buy your way out of trouble. And United are supposed to be rich. They've just had more money than sense for a long time. So if they spend that money smartly, hey, we could be up there in two seasons.
Grant Wahl:
I've never known you when Manchester United was good. So are you like an insufferable fan when they're doing really well, or not?
Brent Maximin:
Yes. [Laughs] Look, I'm insufferable, I'm not joking, if we win two preseason games on the trot, I'm going to be unbearable. I'm going to start looking at trophy parade tickets. Like, all right, May, I think it's May. All right, I should start looking at accommodations now so I could be there. I'm going to start looking at the 2024 Champions League final venue and try to get a jump start. But I think there's different levels of being insufferable. There are certain fan bases or certain fans online that, any site of any hint of adversity, starts pointing fingers and ‘ref conspiracy.] And "Oh, if it was this team, it wouldn't be this. It only happens to us."
United's been good for most of my life, up until the last few years. So that has made it easier to have a little humor about us being bad. But the second we're good again, oh my God. Oh my God.
Grant Wahl:
Brett Maximin is a developmental psychologist and professor at Brooklyn College. He's also part of the group I watch Champions League games with at Smithfield Hall. He used to write about soccer at SB Nation, where he was the managing editor of the Busby Babe. You can find him on Twitter at @BrentMaximin. Brent, thank you for coming on the show.
Brent Maximin:
Grant, thank you for having me. This has been a lot of fun.
I enjoy talk about the cafes in New York and ended up drawing parallels between ownership and the same drag that lingers over the tenures of three or four or actually even five and counting managers. I think the same optimism keeps the lifers hanging on. It is difficult to argue OGS wasn't better than both LVG or Moyes. Mourinho won me over with a victory once, and so it is easy to forget the hangovers. Solskjær made it interesting again for me to invest time in watching the games and now I'm thinking it is obvious to rebuild the team from the same ashes left behind from the team Mourinho built in 2018. We all feel the rush of blood on Twitter and CR7 is why the team is still relevant, but there is a lot of remaining work that needs to be done before the talks about rising to the top of the league get going again, undoubtedly. Thank you.