The Interview: Archie Rhind-Tutt

The Germany-based reporter who does work for ESPN explains the allures of the Bundesliga, how he views the season, why Fulham's Brian McBride was his favorite player as a kid and much more.

Archie Rhind-Tutt does great work covering the Bundesliga (for ESPN) and Champions League, so I’ve been looking forward to interviewing him for a long time. Little did I know that his favorite player as a young Fulham fan was former USMNT stalwart Brian McBride! He tells that story and a lot more below.

The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

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Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is one of my favorite media people covering the German Bundesliga. Archie Rhind-Tutt is a freelance reporter who works for ESPN on the ground in Germany. Archie, it's great to talk to you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Hey, Grant, thanks for having me.

Grant Wahl:

Lots to talk about here, but let's just start, I'm curious to know what is your day-to-day work like in a typical week?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

So there is no typical week, for a start. When the Champions League and Europa League, and my favorite Europa Conference League starts up, meaning I get to go to places such as Slovenia for the first time and whatnot, it means that there's a lot of travel involved. When that's not the case, then a lot of it is keeping across what's happening in terms of storylines that may break for a week, and just making sure I've got tabs on that, because I'll go on ESPNFCs program, nightly show, I'll generally go on once a week or so. 

And then on top of that, things get cooking when the weekend rolls around. That's when things happen, as is life as a sports journalist. There's also sadly admin that needs to be done, which I will always try and put off for as long as possible. But yeah, that's the gist of it, I would say.

“I grew up as a Fulham fan. My favorite player growing up was Brian McBride. I even once wrote about him for an English essay. I happened to do well on this piece on Brian McBride, and my dad wanted to see it, brought it home. And one of the [Fulham] physios happened to be there that day. And he goes, ‘Oh, could I borrow this?’ Dad goes, ‘Yeah, sure.’ And I get home from school a couple weeks later, and there was a signed pair of boots from Brian McBride, being like, Best wishes, Brian.” — Archie Rhind-Tutt

Grant Wahl:

I love your reporting from stadiums, from outside stadiums, what you do for television, what you post on your Twitter. How do you sort of approach that? Do you have a guiding philosophy when you're reporting from a location like that?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

I'm not sure philosophy is the appropriate word for what I do, but I'd say that it's for me about trying to give people things that they can't see on the television, they can't see on Twitter. And trying to put myself in the shoes of somebody who doesn't follow the Bundesliga on a daily basis, or even on a weekly basis, and will want to learn new things about the league, about the way that people watch the football to even the sweets that they may eat at Borussia Dortmund at halftime. I don't know if you have Pick & Mix in the U.S. or what that's called. I'm sure you do, given everyone's love for candy over there, but just those little details that for me give a sense of being on the ground and what it feels like to be there.

So that's something I always try and keep in mind. And also just trying to take myself a step back, because it's very easy to start making assumptions about what people know when in fact, for example, with Union Berlin, there's a common line about the fact that the club's fans gave blood to help build the stadium. That's a common line to somebody who knows the Union Berlin story, but maybe somebody who's joining it for the first time won't know that. And there's, I think, that balance that you have to seek as a reporter of a league which isn't the Premier League. Where you have to remember that there can't be too much assumed knowledge, and you have to find the balance of the people who are following it all the time and not trying to irritate them by repeating the same detail over and over again. And trying to come towards people who might be interested in watching it, engaging with it for the first time.

Grant Wahl:

No, that makes total sense. What in your opinion makes the Bundesliga special?

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Archie Rhind-Tutt:

The fans. The fans, and their attitudes towards the authorities for a start. And by this I mean the ultra groups and the way that they behave. I think that's very unique. And I think whilst there are bits about them, which I think can be taken out of context, I think on the whole the sort of work they do on a social level, how socially conscious that they are. I think that is forgotten amidst all the flares and smoke bombs that may be let off. And even the seriousness of that, I always wonder to myself, if it was that bad, then would they do it? Because there are still human beings underneath these masks that they may wear so that they don't get identified. And I think coming from a Premier League background, myself, growing up as a fan, it's been an eye-opener to see the way that works.

And obviously with the way that German clubs are owned and how that is primarily still in the hands of the fans. That is a big difference. So yeah, in terms of a big heading, I'd say the fans, but just also the way that people in German football and in Germany are much more concerned about what they stand for, rather than it doesn't matter, we just have to win no matter what, and we will sell our soul at whatever price it costs. We don't care which state or which person owns us, which is what I find more and more commonly in England. So yeah, I think the fact that I was raised there and then go into a different environment, those are the things that jump out at me.

Grant Wahl:

It’s really interesting. I mean, I only really started covering German soccer a little over a decade ago. Made my first big trip over there, I think, in 2010. And I was struck by not just the community aspect, but the social mission aspect. And I realized that even in England, there's more of a community sense around clubs than there are around U.S. professional sports teams in most cases. But there's a continuum. And I felt like Germany, where you actually had fans welcomed to come attend training sessions on a regular basis in Germany, sort of took things to a different level. And are there any other sort of little or big examples of things like that you see in Germany?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

I think you see it in the way that the team will always go over to the fans as a team altogether at the end of a game, and in a winning cause they might do what's called the Humba where they, it depends on the club as well. That tends to be more specific to Mainz as one of the places which is home to Carnival, but just this idea of everyone kind of linking hands and raising them at the same time as the fans behind the goal as well. And you'll see the way that Sadio Mané, for example, was invited up onto the fence at Frankfurt after Bayern's opening-day demolition job there. So I think that sort of direct connection is more than just as I see in England, for example, are the players going and straggling over to the fans dependent as well on the result.

Some might just disappear down the tunnel, and that's okay. And you sometimes see that when, in terms of a player, if they've come from a different environment that they all be sent back by a press officer to be like, "No, no, no, everyone goes with the team to go directly there." So yeah, that's another element that I'd say I've mentioned. And I think the way it's discussed as well, Grant, is I hear people in England being like, "Oh, surely people are losing the plot with Bayern doing so well now." And it comes back to people are like, "Well, what's the other choice? We sell the club that we love to somebody who doesn't care for it. And then not only are we going to still probably lose, but we then also lose our club, our community, our values."

And when you frame it like that, I think it's pretty obvious that the answer is no, still. And no matter what solutions of which I find it very difficult to pick them out myself, the chances of that changing, I think are still low and there would be widespread protests were any further steps towards a 50+1 break, which there is attempted, still, tries to dismantle it in German football. That those are still being made by people, and arguments are still being made, albeit shot down as well. And I think when you look at what a club like Eintracht Frankfurt can do by being the way they are and still essentially owned by the fans, I think that very much watered down the argument when you're winning a Europa League title, which is not an easy thing to do in modern football.

Grant Wahl:

You brought it up. I mean, it's interesting to me that Bayern has now won 10 titles in a row. And in the period before that there were quite a few different winners of the Bundesliga. And not just Dortmund under Klopp. There were other clubs that were winning the title. I'm wondering, what do you think are the causes of Bayern having this much supremacy over the last 10 years?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

So there's one argument that I hear rattled around a lot, which is about Bayern having this winning mentality and people just can't get close to that, and really the rest of the league needs to toughen up. And then I think you come to the real cause of it, which is money, like it is in most aspects of life. And in reality here in this situation, because of the way that the Champions League money has accelerated and created an elite amongst the elites, not just in Germany, but across Europe, you have seen the way that the dominance and the stranglehold on these leagues has tightened. And that's the reason, it's as much because 10 years ago, someone like Raúl was able to be attracted to Schalke, like that kind of name. And I say this as a Fulham fan in the Premier League, there's certainly a part of me that enjoys seeing somebody like João Palhinha come to Fulham this summer.

On the other hand, he's a starting defensive midfielder for Portugal. And a newly promoted side has the cash to attract him, tells you something in itself. And I think that it is the way that these traditional clubs have been left behind a lot in Germany that tells you what's gone on. And despite the fact that Borussia Dortmund have grown significantly, and there was definitely a chance for them to win a title, if not two, if we're being generous within that run of 10, there was a very close title race that I was involved that I say involved, involved in reporting on. There we go, important clarification, when it went right down to the final day, and that was to me the opportunity missed, but otherwise what more can you expect when you are trying to cut down a tree with a bread knife and Bayern have a chainsaw? I think sometimes in the media we search for there being different causes to make it sound different, to make it sound more appealing when actually the truth is the truth is money.

Grant Wahl:

So let me ask you this, because this topic has come up occasionally in Germany, and I think you might have a more on-the-ground read of it than I can get from over here in New York about how serious the possibility is. Because I've seen the possibility of end-of-season playoffs in the Bundesliga to determine a champion come up occasionally, and even once or twice seen Bayern Munich people not totally dismiss it, but is this even a realistic possibility, or is this just some talking point that comes up from time to time?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

A mixture of both of those things? I think because you have a newish CEO of the Bundesliga in Donata Hopfen, the likelihood of seeing more ideas like this, ways that they can change things. She needs to be seen as being proactive. And as a result you will see ideas like that floated, and the only real reactions I've seen to that has been it being rebuffed. And I think it's worth thinking about. I've heard people say it devalues the season, but I think for many clubs it could add a different element to it. I just don't think that it would be overwhelmingly popular. And the big thing you've got to think about in Germany as well is how deeply unpopular VAR video review has been, and how even when teams are having decisions which could go in their favor, being ruled, one of the things you hear in the stadium without fail every time from ultras of either side is, "Football mafia DFB" chanted throughout the stadium, which means football mafia, German FA.

Which is they see the German FA as being corrupt, and they do not approve of VAR. And they would rather have a game without video review if it meant that they had or what felt like their sport again. So I think they have to be sensitive towards these kind of ideas. And from experience, putting these ideas out in the media is also to just dip your toe in the water and to get a feel of what the atmosphere would be like towards such a decision.

Grant Wahl:

So we're recording this on August 24, coming out a few days later. What's your sense of the Bundesliga season so far? What's stood out to you?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Bayern are pretty good, Grant, in comparison to everybody else. They don't seem to miss Robert Lewandowski as much as some people wanted to think they would. I thought they might a touch, but I also recognize that with three games into a 34-game season, and that there is effectively a longer winter break in the Bundesliga this time. When things shut down in November, it won't come back again until just after mid-January. I know that because I've booked my holiday after then to make sure it coincides with that. My point overall, though, is that Bayern starting the season well, or not even that, Julian Nagelsmann as a coach, starting seasons well, has never been an issue for him, whether he's been in Hoffenheim or RB Leipzig or now at Bayern, his teams tend to come out like a train. The real crunch is going to be what happens in the Champions League.

That is where he is under a lot of pressure to perform. And I think those are where the question marks are over him as a coach in making sure that the team can show the kind of variability with their play that they've been showing in these early weeks of the season, tearing apart Bochum, Frankfurt and RB Leipzig as well in the German SuperCup. That's where the big question mark is for me. Borussia Dortmund aren't strong enough at fullback for my liking. I think that they were also hugely knocked back by Sebastien Haller's cancer diagnosis, and that's been on a human level just terrible to see somebody who was so at the top of their game as well to then have to experience what he has.

So you have Bayern and Dortmund, and you have Leverkusen and Leipzig both in crises of their own, which is something which was unexpected. Leverkusen were talking themselves up for a Bundesliga title. Now they are having to make sure that they don't get sucked into mid-table, even at a very early stage. They've lost every competitive game so far. And the light side of this all is having underdogs who do far more than some of their parts suggest they should, such as Union Berlin under their coach Urs Fischer, who's been there quite a while. Now, Christian Streich, who's been there even longer of a while in Freiburg, and seeing what they're able to do and compete at this top end of the league with the likes of Leverkusen and Leipzig on budgets which are incomparable.

I think there's always something of a honeymoon season before the start of the European campaign for clubs across Europe. Once you get into these three-game weeks or English weeks, as they say in Germany, then you start to see the full mettle of the team. But yeah, Bayern are my favorites for the title, surprise you there. Just wouldn't quite run away with the whole, well, this is going to happen every week. It looks very obvious to say that when we're this many games into the season, but Bayern are also playing pretty much a game of week right now, and when that is the case I think they are naturally going to be stronger.

Grant Wahl:

Can you share your story about, you mentioned this, you grew up in England. You're in Germany, how did that come about?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

I should clarify, my name is a mixture of English and Scottish. However, it has been to my advantage that because people can't identify where it's from, there have been times since I started covering German football where people in England are like, "Oh wow, your name sounds really German." And then you come to Germany and people are like, "Where the hell are you from? You're definitely not from here." I went, "Oh yeah, yeah, you guys have recognized it, right." So, yeah, I grew up as a Fulham fan. My dad used to take me to Craven Cottage. My favorite player growing up was Brian McBride. I even once wrote about him for an English essay, which was like a mock exam. And because at the time I used to go on football courses at Fulham's training ground, because it was around the corner from where I lived, it meant that we had as a family contact to one of the Fulham physios at the time, because my parents had really bad back problems. And I got to know the kit man. And I'm saying, I get to know the kit man … as a 12 year old who was hanging about. 

And he was waiting for his kids to come out of the football course as well. And so as a result, one morning, because I happened to do well on this piece on Brian McBride, and my dad wanted to see it, brought it home. And one of the physios happened to be there that day. And he goes, "Oh, could I borrow this?" Dad goes, "Yeah, sure." And I get home from school a couple weeks later, and there was a signed pair of boots from Brian McBride, being like Best wishes Brian. I was like, yeah, he was my favorite player already, but yeah, that was put in gold in my head for the rest of my life. So yeah, that's a little bit about, I guess, how I was a Premier League nerd.

Grant Wahl:

I've got questions though. I've got more questions. So why Brian McBride, why was Brian McBride your favorite player?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

He just had this heart on his sleeve, always committed. He would always go in where it hurts and would still emerge, battered and bruised, and just had this whole aura to him. He never kind of walked out anywhere without his chest out wide. And I think he was just great. His whole attitude was something that I really looked up to as a teenager and playing football. And I think you want to think that the guy that is leading the line for your team is tough and is able to kind of to come back. And I remember when he had a terrible knee injury that he sustained against Middlesbrough. And for me, one of the great things about the great escape that Fulham then did that season was that he came back from injury and helped score, and he he scored again just after he'd given me his boots. So I thought that it's like, well, because you've got rid of your unlucky pair of boots, you're now scoring again. So you're welcome.

Grant Wahl:

Have you ever had any contact in your media career with Brian McBride?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Actually, yes. For the first time, about a year or two ago, about two years ago, when I was working with somebody who knew him. And I told that person that he was my idol or whatever. And then that person was all too happy to be like, "Oh, he's my mate. I'm going to ring him right now." I was like, "You're kidding me." And I've had to interview people who have won World Cups and achieved more than Brian McBride did in his career. And yet suddenly I felt like I was eight years old again and was just like, "Oh God, yeah. Hi, hi." Yeah. Well, I say eight. I think he was playing with Fulham probably when I was about 11 or 12, to be honest, around about that time. I've forgotten the years now.

But yeah, someone took a photo of my face when I was on the phone at that moment because we were at a bit of a group dinner, and I looked like a child at that moment. So yeah, I think it's for the best for Brian that I don't have to work with him, because, yeah, it's difficult.

Grant Wahl:

I will say this, that like you, I don't get starstruck interviewing very famous soccer players. And yet the only times I do are when I have to interview some childhood hero of mine, and then I turn into a puddle, and it's kind of embarrassing in a fun way.

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Exactly.

Grant Wahl:

And so how did you get to Germany?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Good question. I had no German roots in my family, and my first real contact with Germany and German football was I got to go on a history trip at school. I remember being in Nurnberg hearing about the history of these very important steps that we we're on. Not remembering that because in front of us were loads of Nurnberg fans streaming towards the stadium, which was also in front of us to their game against Hansa Rostock, which they drew 1-1 but we didn't get to see, but I still remember looking up the score, it was February, 2008. Jan Koller scored. That's what I can remember, so that lit something in my head. And then I went Interrailing with some friends straight after leaving school and went to look around the Allianz Arena, went to the Olympic Stadium, and something in my brain caught fire a little bit more.

And then particularly when you're going into a stage of your life, like university, where let's face it, you have more time to do more pointless things. If you're on a certain degree, which, hey, I had to work hard on my broadcast journal journalism degree, but it also meant that I had spare time in the evenings. And I was watching Bundesliga on betting websites and making sure I had all five games on screen. Not that I would be able to watch them all, but just the thought of being able to watch them all was enough. And then you start to read more and more and you see these things. And I read Raphael Honigstein book called Englischer Fussball, which I thought opened my eyes in terms of the comparisons between the two cultures.

And then I got a very lucky break by doing a piece of work experience with a company who ended up producing European football for BT Sport in the UK, who had the rights. And it just so happened that I'd done work experience with him a year before, I went round the back of a truck at a tennis tournament,where I was working for a local BBC radio station, tried to steal some bacon sandwiches, just as I was putting my hand in, got caught and was just like, "Oh, hi." And at that moment, we agreed to go for dinner. And at that point found out that their producer was looking for somebody who was young, who knew a lot about German football and was willing to work in the coming season. What I realized this meant was he was looking for someone who was cheap, but hey, I was happy to be that person at that point.

And albeit you've got to think about things that are like, it was still enough to get by in London. So I was fortunate on that level. And then a few years later I had the opportunity just through somebody who had helped me with my Bundesliga writing to go and move to Germany and try it there. And BT was supportive in letting me fly back and forth, something which I think I'm too old to do now, but I would fly back three weekends out of four in a weekend in a month to go work there. And it was so much fun. It was so much fun, and in the middle of that, I also was working as a radio producer as well. That's where there was quite a lot going on, but I think that's the nature of the media industry is that you have to do so many different jobs to get started.

And that was one of them. My weekend used to be, I'm going on here. My weekend used to be between 2013 and 2015. I would go to do set-up at this radio station called LBC on a Friday, work there for the day. Go in there at about 11 AM, produce the show at 3 PM, leave there at 7. Go straight over to BT, watch the highlights coming in from France, Germany, Italy, leave there about 11, get back in there the next day about 8 AM just to do final research before then recording highlight voiceover. Helping with production of the show, which went out at like quite late night and then finished at 10. So it was intense. It was intense. But I now enjoy at least a day off on my weekends, and that's why.

Grant Wahl:

Good. I want to ask about your relationship with Derek Rae, because Derek is near and dear to me and a lot of fans in the United States who love his work. And obviously he's doing a lot of games, broadcasting of the Bundesliga for ESPN and also of LaLiga these days too. And it seems like you and Derek have really hit it off. I think it's really cool. And I always look forward to when you happen to be in the same location, as you have been a few times already this season, and share your thoughts together. And how did that come about?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

I first met Derek in 2013 when I was still at uni, and met is a strong word. I approached him in a pub in West London, recognizing, sitting down with my mates and being like, "Hang on, that's Derek Rae." And my mates saying, "Who's that?" I went, "You just don't understand." So I went up to him, and at the time I was trying to get into the industry by hook or by crook, and I'd been practicing my commentary. I'd commentated a game for BBC local radio or recorded it anyway for Hastings United second round FA Cup replay against Harrogate Town, which Derek was commentating for ESPN. And I said, I went up to Derek and I started talking to him and asked him if he'd listened to my commentary. He did, he was very polite about it, which I still appreciate to this day, and gave me a few pointers.

And then as luck would have it, I started working with him on BT Sport things about six months later. And when our paths crossed again at Fox and ESPN, I think we just chatted more. And I think we both have our own passion towards German football, and that very much bonded us. And he's something like an industry dad to me. If I need honest feedback from somebody, then Derek is somebody that I turn to. And I think that we see football, I think we see the world in quite a similar way. Despite the fact that there's, to put it diplomatically, there's a few years between us. And we also both like ELO, so that helps as well.

Grant Wahl:

It is a really cool thing when you find people that you really admire their work are also really good people when it's away from the cameras. And Derek is right at the top of the list of great people I've gotten to know in this industry. He was, I think, Episode 3 of this podcast back in 2020, I think this is like Episode 252. But always appreciated Derek's support and talking to him. 

A couple more questions, I really appreciate you taking this much time. You've been very open on your Twitter feed at times about dealing with mental health challenges, which I have always had huge admiration for you doing that. How have you tried to approach mental health and what you say about it publicly?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

With care and sensitivity. Because I realized that my own experiences are personal and that there's an element of me which is still I have to keep certain details for myself. Because I think there can be sometimes a danger of giving too much away and you're giving away too much of yourself. But equally the thing I want to do above everything else is to try and help a couple of other people. And from the messages I've got back from people via Twitter DM, via Instagram, it has worked and that's encouraging. And I just want people to be aware that even I think on days when we forget about things like mental health, I say this in a sporting industry sense, you don't acknowledge mental health when it's the final of the women's Euros on that day, everything goes into a bubble.

But I know from friends from experiencing these kind of events myself, that if anything those are the days where you just need an arm around your shoulder, whether it's physically or verbally from people and just remembering to check in, and just also remembering that there's only so much that you can do. So it's a sensitive topic. I don't say that I know everything about it, because that's also impossible, anyway. As somebody who's not studied it, but having felt it, I think that I can give certain insights into what it's like. And I hope that can also ease the burden on some people who hear what I have to say and may think I can associate with that. And those are my aims with it, really.

Grant Wahl:

I have noticed in your work a real sense of empathy over time, which I admire too. And in particular, I remember during the Euros, the men's Euros, when there was a lot of talk about the rainbow flag and whether stadiums in Germany should post the rainbow flag or the Bayern Stadium should have the rainbow colors on the outside, that you did some really good work that was just very human around all of that. How did you want to approach that and come to the realization of, "I want to talk about this in some real detail publicly”?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Part of it comes from living in Germany, where it's important to take a position on things, and that wasn't overwhelming in the culture that I grew up in. And I think that being exposed to the environment that I am in Germany and in Cologne, which is seen as the LGBTQ+ capital of Germany as well. It is about making a statement and making your position clear and the importance of showing that. 

The way that I approached that was just making that clear. And even if it may have seemed to one or two people, are you meant to take more of an impartial stand, whatever that is. I think you've got to at certain points just say, what is right and what is wrong? And to me, it was very clear that this was wrong. So I wanted to say that, and as somebody who had a platform for this, I wanted to try and use that platform that I have. And it was nothing more complicated than that, really.

Grant Wahl:

I assume that those games have stood out to you and your coverage of the sport over the years. What have been some of your other favorite events or games to cover over the years?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Now there’s a question. To cover, I have to say covering Eintracht Frankfurt's run to the Europa League final and Europa League win that they had, seeing them take 30,000 fans to Barcelona and being part of that walk to the stadium and just seeing these white masses. That was a moment that will stay with me, as will the moment where they won it in the final, because I still can't quite believe that they got it over the line, or their recreation of Welcome to Mordor as they brought the trophy back to the main city square there as well. Just so many little human moments or to be honest, surreal moments from that campaign, they stand out as well. And even as well, I think just going to a World Cup for the first time in Russia, back in 2018, seeing how much the world has changed since then and remembering how friendly so many of the locals were there and thinking about everything that's changed now since then as well.

That feels completely, I think surreal is probably the right word there as well in a completely different context. So it's a very privileged job that I have. And also one that I know I have because, look, sure, from what I've described to you, I work hard. Everyone works hard, though. I know that I'm afforded certain privileges by the color of my skin, by the fact that I'm male. I have an English accent, which in the football journalism world I think affords you more than it should. And that I know affords me certain privileges because I know other people in the industry who have had to and do continue to go up against certain barriers when it comes to access, when it comes to going for jobs and the way they're considered.

So I do appreciate more now than I did at the start, by having heard the stories from friends and colleagues, of the kind of things they have to go through that I have something approaching a double or a triple privilege and probably more than I'm listing here as well. And that is something that I don't take lightly and I hope will also change more and more in the coming years. Because I think that the greater the diversity of the people involved in the industry increases the diversity of the views, which are represented as well. And creates a more tolerant society and can hopefully make it not so shocking when say a player, a coach, you name it, finds that the time is right for them to come out in the men's professional game.

Because I think that those are steps that football is still a very conservative sport in the way that it is reported, and indeed in the way that the figures that play are represented. Which doesn't quite answer the question that you had originally, but look … tangents! (laughs)

Grant Wahl:

Which is fine. It also makes me think of, even over here in the U.S., Robbie Rogers, Collin Martin, we haven't had many players come out in American soccer still. And so I really have an admiration for them. There's quite a few more on the women's side, but I also remind myself that even Megan Rapinoe was not out until right before the 2012 Olympics. So she had played in her star-making World Cup, her first one, in 2011, and was not out yet. And she's about as out as can be now, right? But it's still a process. And for the decade or so before that, there were a bunch of players on the U.S. women's national team who were gay and not out. So we hope things continue to change for the better. One last basic question for you. What sort of things do you want to do in the coming years work-wise?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

(Laughs) I think the pause there probably tells you that I've not given that enough thought. But the truth is I'm still learning. I'm still learning and want to continue doing that. And if I reach a point where that's not the case, which I can't envisage in particular with this job, then maybe something different. But for now I enjoy the challenge of still getting to grips with German grammar, for instance. That's not always easy, and trying to understand the way that different cultures work, and doing that abroad, doing it away from my homeland is something that I really enjoy. So long as it's, to be honest, so long as it's not in the UK, I'm all ears. But yeah, I really enjoy working with ESPN on the Bundesliga and the chance to be able to still tell and share the insights and things that I see on the ground. And, yeah, for now that's enough for me. That's all good.

Grant Wahl:

Archie Rhind-Tutt is a freelance reporter who works for ESPN on the ground in Germany. Archie, thanks for coming on the show.

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Thanks, Grant. Cheers.