USMNT legend Landon Donovan will join me and Chris Wittyngham for podcast episodes after every USMNT World Cup qualifier to break down the game and share insights from his vast experience. Those podcasts, in partnership with Meadowlark and Dan Le Batard and Friends, will post on the night of or the day after every qualifier. Every audio episode of Fútbol with Grant Wahl is available for free in the archives on my Substack site, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and elsewhere.
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Grant Wahl:
Hey there, welcome to Fútbol with Grant Wahl. Thanks so much for joining me. We've got a special episode tonight in partnership with Meadowlark Media and Le Batard and Friends, with reaction from Landon Donovan, Chris Wittyngham, and me to the U.S. men's national team's 2-0 win over Jamaica in World Cup qualifying game four. Landon is in San Diego, where he coaches San Diego Loyal. Chris is in South Florida. And I am in Austin, where I'm writing for my Substack newsletter, which you should subscribe to, free or paid, at grantwahl.com. Guys, great to see you. How are you?
Landon Donovan:
Good to see you, Grant. Good to see you, Chris. I'm happy now after all the drama over the first three games, now you look at the standings and the U.S. is top of the table. So it's funny how these things change quickly and in a good place right now.
Chris Wittyngham:
A lot more comfortable than after the first 225 minutes of World Cup qualifying for the U.S. Now, I thought that was by far the most assured performance over 90 minutes. It wasn't great in the attack in the first half, but it was comfortable. And that was a nice 2-0 victory, where you go home and it's like, "All right, that was easy." As much as World Cup qualifying can be.
Grant Wahl:
Really good atmosphere here in Austin. First time I've been to Q2 Stadium, good fans, loud, just really good circumstances for a game. I'm sure we'll be coming back here before too long.
And let's just dive in. Ricardo Pepi, two goals in front of his native state fans and family here in Texas. And three goals now for Pepi in just two games. He's just 18 years old. And I want to emphasize just two games, because I know how the hype train works. But I will say this, that here is a guy who, this has been a weak position, center forward, the number nine position, for a long time. The U.S., I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, Landon, I don't think has ever had a world-class center forward. There aren't many world class center forwards in my book. Manchester City does not have a center forward that I think is world-class right now. It's a huge problem for them. But Landon, let's start with you. What are your thoughts on Pepi tonight, and what he's bringing and the promise of what he represents?
Landon Donovan:
So my thoughts are in these games, a lot of times you have a lot of the ball, which the U.S. had, I think 65-plus percent of the ball. And ultimately, you need guys who can make plays. Any way you slice it, this game could end at 0-0. Look at Mexico, Canada, 1-1, Honduras-Costa Rica, 0-0. Nobody makes a play. You need someone who can make plays. And the build-up to the first goal is great with [Yunus] Musah driving through the center of the field. The cross is good. But ultimately you need someone in the box who can make the plays.
And our associate head coach here at San Diego Loyal, Nate Miller, played against Ricardo two years ago in League One, USL League One. And when we would talk about him earlier in the year, he just said, "Landon, this guy is a killer. When he's in the box, he is an absolute killer." And you don't notice him much through most of the game. And then he shows up in two spots in the right spot at the right time, and just kills you. And that header is much more difficult than people realize, that first goal. And he's a killer. And that's what you need in games like this. You need someone who can just put the ball in the back of the net. And in those moments, he was perfect.
Chris Wittyngham:
And in theory, the system that Gregg Berhalter employs is meant to manufacture those kinds of chances for strikers.
Landon Donovan:
That's right.
Chris Wittyngham:
You think of the Columbus strikers of years gone by, of Ola Kamara, Gyasi Zardes, they go there and they score goals because of the service that comes from wide areas. That tap in is precisely the kind of goal that it's meant to generate.
And as Landon said, I agree with you, that header was a lot tougher on second and third watching than it was, where it's like, "Oh, that's just a header. And it goes in.” No, that's, from behind you got to get it with the side of your head and get the trajectory on its spot on.
And I did actually think in the beginning of the game, he offered more than the staying-quiet center forward typically offers. I thought he was decent in build-up. As the game wore on, it did seem as though latter stage of that first half, he was a bit more anonymous, but then pops up with the two chances, scored the two goals, and the hype train is often running. And that for me is the most remarkable thing is that an 18-year-old is the one who's generating all this hype. All these guys who are in Europe, it's the guy who's at FC Dallas, albeit probably not for much longer. He's the guy who's generating all the hype and all the interest right now. Because ultimately, I think it's interesting that this nation in particular, every nation cares about its goal scorer, right?
But it seems as though the American fan almost above any creative, defensive, midfield, whatever, American fans have wanted a top drawer player at this position for as long as I can remember. And look, that's not to denigrate [Brian] McBride and Charlie Davies, and Jozy Altidore, Pepi seems to be on another level and he's trending in that direction.
Grant Wahl:
Or at least have the promise for another level. And Landon, when I think of you playing center forward, you didn't play center forward that much in your U.S. career. I remember the 2002 World Cup, you did some. But I always looked at you and [Clint] Dempsey as often at your best in wide roles cutting in like in 2010 at the World Cup. And it is just two games for Pepi, but the promise of having a guy who could become that elite goal scorer, center forward that scares other teams is just really tantalizing right now.
There was frustration for me watching this game in the first half though, that the U.S. was getting the ball out wide, but the crosses were abysmal in the first half. And it's not like Pepi even had any really great chances because the ball wasn't getting to him. What was going on in the first half, in your opinion, Landon, that changed in the second that got them more of this verticality that Gregg Berhalter has been looking for?
Landon Donovan:
We've talked in an earlier podcast about putting teams under real pressure. So, if you just purely turn off the volume, turn off the scoreboard and you just watch the plays in the attacking end for the U.S. team, in the first half they never put Jamaica under real pressure. In the second half, it was the opposite. It was attack after attack after attack, service into the box, running into the box, putting Jamaica under pressure, making the referee make difficult decisions. And they did that over and over and over. And part of it I think is just, they wore Jamaica down. While they weren't creating a ton of chances in the first half, they had all the possession, all the ball. They made them run.
My guess is, you can tell me, Austin is usually not cold this time of the year. And it's usually pretty humid. So, my guess is over the course of 50 minutes, 60 minutes, 70 minutes, it just wore them down. And the U.S. kept going and going and going. And then eventually when the chances show up, you have to score them. And if you don't, it's 0-0. And if you do, you win the game and you have the three points.
Chris Wittyngham:
I thought the one player that demonstrated aggression throughout was Antonee Robinson. He was kind of going direct and playing through balls all the time, but he was a culprit for some of the bad crosses. There was one in particular where Pepi was making a crashing run. It was similar to the tap-in chance he gets for the second goal, but instead the ball goes flying behind him. And Sergiño Dest plays it, rather than Ricardo Pepi.
But I thought Robinson kept the pressure going forward. But the one kind of thing that you saw change for me in the second half was the drive in midfield, in particular Yunus Musah and what he provided going forward, carrying the ball forward. There was a couple of chances that he created that didn't lead to anything, but were just a sign of his skill, his technical quality on the ball, drifting through midfield and into defensive areas. And it's like, whoa, that's another top level prospect as well, just given what he provided as an 18-year-old in this kind of setting, in this kind of occasion.
But it was multiple players playing with that aggression, not just Robinson. Dest as well was much better than he showed in the first window, because I think the game flow works for him better, having 65% of the ball, having the freedom to go forward. That's where he lives. That's where he thrives. And he got better as the game wore on. But there was more threats than just, I would say probably Robinson was the chief threat in that first half.
Landon Donovan:
It's a good point on Musah too, Witty. In the modern game, there are very few players who can just take the ball and advance the ball by themselves. Everybody is looking to pass, pass, pass, break lines, pass, pass, pass. And we've gotten away from, are there players who can just take the ball and run by people, and put them under pressure? And that's what created the first goal. He just took the ball and ran with it. And dribbling and breaking pressure by yourself is highly, highly undervalued. And so, having players on the field who can do that. Christian [Pulisic] is elite at that, he just takes the ball, cuts inside and he's gone. And that puts teams under all sorts of pressure and opens up all sorts of passing angles when you do that.
Grant Wahl:
Also too, in this game, the U.S. missing two big attacking threats. Christian Pulisic is one of them. Gio Reyna is the other. You had Brenden Aaronson and Paul Arriola filling in for them in this game. How did you think they did?
Chris Wittyngham:
For me, the interesting thing was defensively what they... Obviously, you're missing the creative contribution of a pair of players in Pulisic and Reyna, but my God, did Paul Arriola work his ass off for as long as he was on the field. And Brenden Aaronson as well, he plays in that system in Salzburg as well, so it's not surprising. But they worked so incredibly hard to put Jamaica under pressure. There were moments where, I mean, Paul Arriola like was playing rugby at one point, going for a ball in the Jamaica penalty area. And they created things by virtue of their running.
Now, Paul Arriola’s threat in the final third Isn't the greatest. He isn't the one who operates in tight spaces in the way that Gio Reyna and Christian Pulisic does, but he gave you so much else that I think a lot of USMNT fans probably rolled their eyes when he was in the starting lineup, but he proved why he was there. He proved why he's probably a player that several coaches have trusted because of the work that he does.
And then on the other side, Brenden Aaronson does a bit more. I thought he was better in the second half, obviously, he creates the second goal with that slid ball across the area, makes the run in behind. I still think that his final product in these qualifying games has not been as good as we've seen from him, either in Salzburg, or even in USMNT friendlies, that I thought he's was brilliant ...
Grant Wahl:
He scored twice, Chris.
Landon Donovan:
It's not enough. (laughs)
Grant Wahl:
Tough crowd.
Chris Wittyngham:
I just don't think that he's been as good as he's shown previously in a U.S. shirt. But that doesn't mean he's been bad. I just think that he can be even better.
Landon Donovan:
I want to touch, Grant, on Paul Arriola. So, I was sitting with two buddies during the game at a local bar here in San Diego. And when the lineup got announced, they both said, "Oh, really, Paul Arriola?" And I said, "Guys, let me tell you something, we'll watch the game, and then we'll comment after." But he is the type of player who, when he is on the field, your team wins more often than they lose. It's just the reality. And he does all the little things well. And I keep coming back to this over and over, in these games, you have to put teams under pressure.
And 20 seconds into the game, he puts Kemar Lawrence under pressure, puts the referee under pressure, just with his running and work rate and being in the right spot. And he just makes you a better team. He does. And does he show up on the score sheet? No. Does anybody talk about him at length? No. It's all about Pepi, and as well it should be. But he's a guy who makes your team better. And I thought he was fantastic tonight.
Grant Wahl:
I will say this. I know fans have some frustration with Arriola and what Chris mentioned, which is from the attacking perspective, if he gets the ball in front of goal, you don't trust him at this level to finish. And it's just part of the deal. So, that frustration is there and I see it, and I get it, but I also probably think most fans don't have the full understanding of what he does bring, which is what you are talking about. And it comes down to the energy. And also too, if he's playing on the side with Sergiño Dest, he can provide cover defensively for Sergiño Dest, who needs cover provided for him fairly often.
Landon Donovan:
Yeah. Grant, honestly, if they had a camera on Paul Arriola for the whole match, you would appreciate what he does. And as you know, sitting in a coach's chair now, a guy that you know what you are getting it from every time he steps on the field, it's not an eight out of 10 and then a four out of 10, and then a seven out of 10, and then a four out of 10. It's a six and half, seven out of 10, every single time. You'll take that all day long. And that's what he provides. And he's also a great kid, great teammate, just makes his teammates better. It's like Cristian Roldán, very similar, just makes his team better, and they win when he is on the field.
Grant Wahl:
I want to ask you as well about Weston McKennie, guys. I said in my CBS report before the game, this is Weston McKennie's most important game in his international career for a couple of reasons, right? Not all on the field. Because all the stuff that happened last month, not being there for the Canada game, two points dropped at home, and didn't even address the media this week, by the way, which surprised me a little bit, because I felt at some point he was going to offer a mea culpa. And then, and only then could we truly get beyond this thing, as Gregg Berhalter says he wants to do. How did he play tonight? And because he hasn't addressed it, is this still going to linger, this whole thing from last month?
Chris Wittyngham:
I don't think so. I think particularly with the team, I'm not sure that there are the characters in this team that are going to hold a grudge. I think for the most part, I mean, one of the things that's attracted a few U.S. players like Yunus Musah to pick the U.S. is it seems like an incredibly fun environment. So, I don't think that this is a group of guys that are going to hold him to account and he's going to have to really prove himself or anything like that. I just think it's, "Hey, don't mess up again." I think it's kind of the overall message.
But in terms of his performance tonight, I thought he was fine. I thought he had a couple of nice moments carrying the ball forward in midfield and doing some of the dirty work that I think Taylor Twellman pointed out and Jermaine Jones pointed out on the broadcast that he excels at.
And I think that he's ultimately a player who I don't think he's ultimately fully found his footing in terms of like, "Hey, here's the guy that plays for Juventus, and that pedigree translates onto the national team.” I don't think that's quite happened yet, but I still think his performance is getting better. I think at some point he will address the situation. You guys will get to ask him questions, and he'll be able to address his side of things. But I don't think that it really affects things in the camp as such at the moment, but obviously I speak without a ton of knowledge.
Grant Wahl:
Landon, are you surprised that McKennie hasn't spoken to the media this week?
Landon Donovan:
I guess, yes and no. I can see it from his standpoint. Maybe you don't want to address it. I think it's always better just to face it, address it, apologize and get on with it. But it's up to him.
I think ultimately, the best thing that happened tonight was he played. I thought he had moments where he was pretty good, otherwise he was solid. And the team won. And you can get past it.
And so, there's two different points. Grant, you asked if they're going to hold a grudge. No, they're not going to hold a grudge. But you said, not hold him to account. Well, you have to hold him to account, right? You can't just allow that behavior to happen, just like you can't allow bad performances to happen. You have to hold your teammates accountable. And coaches have to hold their players accountable. And it looks like everybody is doing that.
As far as the mistake, it's a mistake. He made a mistake. It's over. From everything I know, and I'm hearing from people in and out of camp, he has apologized. And everyone is ready to move on from it.
So, the best thing that happened was he played. I know he was trying hard to make amends on the field. And he looked like he was in it and he cared. And that's the most important piece. And now it's just time to move on and let it be.
Chris Wittyngham:
Do you think Landon that, so there was an article today in the New York Times about Tyler Adams as captain. Do you think that he would be a figure from a player standpoint? When I said bring him account, I meant more from like a locker room standpoint. I don't know if they are the same kind of person. Obviously, the coaches would. They kicked him off the team for two games. And obviously had to have a very tough conversation. But do you think a figure like Tyler Adams is pulling him aside and having a conversation?
Landon Donovan:
I don't know. I hope so. I hope some of the older guys... And I can't speak to that because I don't know, but I hope they are. Look, it doesn't have to be this big dramatic, even though that's the way people take it on Twitter and in the media. It doesn't have to be some big dramatic thing. But the reality is, is that he did let his team down. That is fact. And so, as long as there's trust there and they've built good relationships together, you can say, "Hey, I know you made a mistake, but we can't have that again. And we really need you." That team needs him. He provides a lot of things that other players don't. And although he wasn't perfect tonight, he is a force in the middle of the field that the U.S. team needs.
Grant Wahl:
It's Interesting. I interviewed Brenden Aaronson one-on-one yesterday here in Austin. And I always ask players an open-ended question, "What stood out to you in training this week?" Because I just want to see what they bring up, and there's always something. And the very first name he mentioned was Weston McKennie. And I hadn't even mentioned McKennie at that point in the interview. And I thought it was interesting that Aaronson said, "The practices have been really intense. Weston McKennie has been really engaged in those training sessions."
He said also Tyler Adams. And he said there was a bit of a contrast compared to the camp last month in terms of the first training sessions. So, that stood out to me that McKennie was, he may not have been talking to the media, but inside the team he has, according to Aaronson, already regained the stature he had before.
Landon Donovan:
Yeah. Grant, listen, it's not about experience, it's about having gone through these experiences. So even just playing three games in the last cycle and for Weston, it was one, you start to realize, "Oh, this is serious, and we can lose if we're not at our best." And you don't realize that until you go through those experiences. You have to go to El Salvador and suffer through a 0-0 draw, before you go, "Wow, we have way better players, way more talented." But it's not just going to happen. Nobody is going to roll over for us. Once you have those experiences, you can pull on them and come back to them.
And so, my sense is that guys went into camp this week and they're like, "Hey, guys, this is serious. If we're not at it, we can lose to Jamaica. If we're not at it in the first half, it can be 0-0." And it was 0-0. And they probably pulled on that and said, "Okay, time to turn it up a notch." And they turned it up a notch and they won.
So, I'm happy that the team is starting to grow in that way. They have to if you're going to qualify. Going to Mexico is hard. Going to Costa Rica is hard. Going to Panama is hard. And they're going to have to be able to pull on these experiences and use them as they go forward.
Chris Wittyngham:
Grant, do you think that Gregg Berhalter also pulled from these experiences, because obviously we're talking about a group of players that hasn't been through it, but he hasn't either. And I feel like he probably had something to learn from the way that the first two and a half games went. How do you feel like he's handled this?
Grant Wahl:
Yeah. I mean, I feel like Berhalter has done overall I think a pretty good job. I mean, this is a guy, keep in mind, who at halftime of game three, people were talking about his successor. So, that wasn't that many minutes of play ago. But clearly, the U.S. is in first place right now after four games. And so, I think people are looking at that result. They're also looking at the process of what's happening.
And Gregg Berhalter is going through finding out who his guys are. And there's not a huge sample size, right? And some things he's going to try may not work out. James Sands didn't work out in my opinion. I'm not singling him out because he was terrible or anything, but we don't see him back here this camp. He may be back next camp. And he had a decent Gold Cup.
Ricardo Pepi seems like your number nine for the foreseeable future here, at least. For you Landon, I mean, do you think Pepi starts every game he's available at that position?
Landon Donovan:
Well, you have to keep producing. But I want to touch just on Witty's question there. So, and now I don't have a ton of experience now, but I realize how important having the ability to practice with guys and work on what you want to work on is. And the reality is is these guys come in a few days before the game and they have to get ready to play. And it's not like Gregg has had a 30- or a 40- or a 50-day camp with all these guys, where they can work on everything.
You're building the plane as you're flying it. And it's really challenging, and especially when you have a lot of new faces and a lot of young faces. They're not guys that have been together and played together for long stretches. So, little tendencies, how does Paul Arriola deal with Sergiño Dest coming around the outside, and how do they deal with things defensively? They've not played together, right? Or not that often. And so those little details matter a lot.
I think the smartest thing Gregg did this week, outside of whatever halftime adjustments he made today, was he said, Weston McKennie is starting two days before the game. And it is like the ultimate sin to leak any part of your lineup before a World Cup qualifier, especially. And I thought it was brilliant. He just said, "Weston is starting. He's part of our team. He's going to be important to us." It took all the pressure off of that decision. It took all the media hype out of that when the lineups came out, "Oh my God, Weston is back. And he's starting." Everyone just stopped in that moment. I thought it was brilliant. And it allowed Weston to just focus on playing too. And I thought that was really, really smart.
Grant Wahl:
So, I'll ask my question again, Landon. Should Pepi start at the number nine every game?
Landon Donovan:
I said he has to keep proving himself. But yes. I mean, listen, we've all seen the hype train go and get derailed over the years, right? With many, many people. I don't get that sense with Pepi. I don't know the kid. I have not spoken to him. When I just watch, there seems like there's a humility about him, but this is a new type of fame, right? This is a whole different level than scoring goals at FC Dallas. So, it is different. It is new, but he seems like he has his feet pretty firmly grounded. And I'm just really happy for him. It is not easy to go into qualifiers and score goals. I don't care who you are. I don't care who the opponent is. And at 18 years old to do it is phenomenal.
Grant Wahl:
I do want to take a second here and congratulate you, Landon, on everything that happened last weekend, where the LA Galaxy honored you for your incredible MLS career, mostly with the Galaxy. And the videos I saw, they were pretty cool. How was it for you?
Landon Donovan:
Incredible. The Galaxy spent so much time and effort and resources on the whole weekend. People just saw te ceremony maybe and the halftime stuff, but I got in Friday night, had a great reception that was all paid for at a nice restaurant by the Galaxy. On Saturday we had our San Diego Loyal game, so there wasn't anything going on. But then Sunday morning, we had an event at Bonita Street School in Carson, where they painted a mural. And then we had the statue unveiling, and then also the halftime ceremony.
So, everything they did was first class. I'm really, really grateful for everything they did. It's the first time I've gone back and really just been able to appreciate what we all did together and achieved together. And it was a really great weekend.
Grant Wahl:
Awesome. Not many people get a statue made for them in their entire lives. And I can only imagine, I guess, like, my brother could have done a thing in his art class of me or something. But what's that like? And what's the best way to ask this? No statue is a 100% exact version of that person and there's a spectrum. And maybe the Cristiano Ronaldo statue is at one end of the spectrum. Yours isn't a hundred percent exact. And when you're the subject of the statue and someone goes about making a statue of you, how do you respond to that? How do you deal with that?
Landon Donovan:
The only thing I asked them to do was to give me the Chris Wittyngham hairline. (laughs) And they did that. So, other than that, I didn't really care. So, I was happy.
Chris Wittyngham:
Oh man. So, you can't really look at it that much because then everyone will think you're self-involved. Are you ever going to like, just randomly pull into Dignity Health Sports Park on a Tuesday in January, when no one's there and just stare at it for a little bit?
Landon Donovan:
I mean, I don't want to cop out, but honestly, I don't really care what it actually looked like. The symbolism of it is cool. And as long as I don't do anything really stupid before I die, hopefully, it'll stay up forever.
Grant Wahl:
I will say this by the way, you're a quote machine these days, Landon, and not just on this podcast, but in The Athletic again this week, really good story, Q&A with you. And there's another story in The Athletic about what you're doing coaching-wise, which I thought was really interesting. One of the things you said, you were a little bit like old guy saying these young guys don't maybe have as much of an understanding for the history and the U.S. men's national team and who proceeded everyone back in 1990, and before that. Have you decided, "I'm going to just go unleashed a little bit."? Or is there a thought process that goes into that?
There's definitely a thought process. Mostly I just get disappointed when people don't understand how much this means and should mean. And so, I get it. People are like, "Shut up, old man. These are young..." But the reality is, is when I got into national team camps when I was young, older guys were down my throat about make sure you respect the crest and the jersey, and the history, because there are people who just grinded for years to make it possible for you to be here. And I was very aware of that. And that's all I'm saying.
Do people make mistakes? Of course, they make mistakes. But I just want people to understand that this is not a given. And I hope, given the last World Cup cycle, there's no God given right to qualify for a World Cup. You have to earn it every step of the way, every step of the way. And if you're not willing to put that in for your country and your national team, and your crest, and your flag, then you shouldn't be there. That's all I'm saying. And that's a big commitment. And some people aren't made for that. Some people aren't cut out for that. But if you're going to take all the credit, and accolades, and fame, and money, et cetera, then you got to put in the commitment. That's ultimately what I'm saying with that.
Chris Wittyngham:
And I wonder if this is perhaps an underrated part of the collateral damage of not having qualified for the World Cup, is that the U.S. went a very long time without playing games as intense or as important as the ones that they're playing right now. Yeah, CONCACAF Gold Cups are important. And the Nations League was fun, but there's nothing that's like this. Right?
I think for the most part, these guys, they've mostly, they've come in, they've had fun. They've gone to Europe. Obviously, in COVID times it probably wasn't the most fun, but at least it was a relief from your constant quarantining. But I just don't think that the guys were familiar with playing games of this importance or of this size, or of this magnitude for the national team. And so, I just don't think that they've really grappled with how important these games are until they did, right? In the first three games of the window. And I think the change in mentality, Tyler Adams acknowledging, "Hey, we're not looking at nine-point windows anymore. We're looking at winning the next game." That feels like the right approach. And I think guys are starting to appreciate what this is.
And so, I do think that as the experiences, as you said, Landon, start to accumulate, I think you will start to see an understanding. I just don't know, just because like soccer is established now, not established as a mainstream sport on the level of the NFL and the NBA, Major League baseball, but it's established to where I don't think any of these kids, I say kids as if I'm like... I'm 29 years old. Who am I calling someone a kid? But I don't think that these guys think of the sport as something that is in doubt, right?
Soccer is not going to go away if these guys don't perform, right? Whereas I think that's like the sense of urgency that you guys had, Landon. And I think, you are credited rightly for helping carry the MLS flag at a time when it was very difficult because the league was fledgling, and we didn't know if it was going to be around. I don't think those guys play with that sense of doubt or that sense of, "Hey, we need to really prove ourselves or else our sport might go away." There's just less on the line. And so, how do you tell someone that there is more on the line if they don't feel it themselves?
Landon Donovan:
Yeah. It's a good point. And you're right. Maybe it is different now, right? The sport is not going away. Major League Soccer is not going away. USL is not going away. The sport is established now. So, maybe that is just us old guys viewing it a different way.
But what I don't want is I just don't want these guys to let the chance slip by them. Your career is so short. And so, if the decision is, "Do I abide by the rules and do everything the right way or do I try to like sneak by the rules, and then get suspended? Just abide by the rules, right? I mean, just put in that commitment because these opportunities, there's no guarantee. There is no guarantee that you're ever going to play another game again. There's no guarantee you're going to qualify for a World Cup. There's no guarantee, even if you qualify, that you're going to play in a World Cup. There are a lot of guys who are a big part of qualifying. They never play in a World Cup. Right? So, I don't want people to take it for granted. I really don't because there's so many people who have done so much to get us to this point.
Grant Wahl:
I want to wrap up with a question about VAR, because VAR is not being used during the Octagonal by CONCACAF. These are the eight best teams in the region. So, it's not like they need to get VAR in a bunch of countries that aren't in the Octagonal for this. And you had a few situations tonight. You had the referee who was from Grenada, first minute, potential red card. I would say, 11th minute when Tyler Adams gets elbowed in the face and there's no call, that's a potential red card. And then another third situation in the first half, it's another potential red card, it looked like a clean tackle to me, but the yellow card is given. And my feeling was, if it's a foul, it has to be a red car because it's a DOGSO. As the Arriola situation was in the first minute. How many red cards should have been given? And how are you feeling about no VAR?
Chris Wittyngham:
Two red cards for me. I thought the second one was a foul, the 33rd minute, Landon, where we were saying that you thought it was a clean tackle. I thought that Aaronson got to the ball first, and then Damion Lowe goes through him. And I thought that was also a red card. And it's funny because I've always been more on the side of technology in sports is kind of period. I just think that once they brought in goal-line technology, it's like, how did we ever go without goal-line technology?
And VAR has been met with a huge amount of criticism around the world. Right? In the Premier League it gets huge amounts of criticism. And yet when you watch games now without VAR, you're like, "Man, we can really do with VAR." And I actually don't know. I think they use VAR in the Gold Cup. And I didn't think it went particularly well, because I just don't think CONCACAF were ever going to implement it incredibly well. You're giving VAR to a bunch of referees that don't use it in their domestic leagues week in and week out.
I don't think that VAR would've necessarily improved tonight. I actually think they might have gone to VAR and kept it as a yellow card. But I just think that given the situation, you want to give the referees as many tools as possible. And I just said, you have to arm eight stadiums in this region with VAR, probably two or three of which already have it. And so, it's not really that much work that goes into it. So, in my view, it should absolutely be there.
But really, the overall problem is that the officiating in this region just isn't very good. And I just think that the referee who I believe was his first time refereeing a World Cup qualifier, just didn't seem like he wanted to give a red card in that big of an incident 20 seconds into the game.
Landon Donovan:
Yeah. Pardon, if I'm wrong here, excuse me, but my guess is that a Grenadian referee is not refereeing high level matches every week, wherever he is refereeing. So, the challenge now is, are you going to put a referee that is not experienced or used to that pace and speed of a game? Are you going to allow them to make the decisions all by themselves? It's not his fault. I didn't think he had a bad game actually. Did I agree with his decision 20 seconds in? No. If you're going to call a foul, which should be a foul, it should be a red card. Right? But it happens fast. He's not used to those moments. So, just give him the technology, so he can go look, hopefully make the right decision. We disagree with that, Witty, I think the 33rd minute. I can live with no red card there from a referee.
The Tyler Adams one it's a little tricky. I don't think he intentionally catches him. But I could see either way there. But you need to give these guys and gals the opportunity to be helped. It's just not fair, especially, these are not Premier League referees who are seeing this pace of a game all the time. They're used to seeing a game that looks totally different than what they saw tonight.
Here goes my old guy comments again. But going back to 2010, we played against Slovenia, and Mo Edu scores a goal. And the referee is a center referee from Mali. And with all due respect, the Mali professional league is not World Cup soccer, right? So, he wasn't used to it. He didn't know how to make those decisions.
So, if you're going to put referees in that situation, you’ve got to give them all the help you can. I don't know if it's a financial issue, my guess is it's financial, but with so much at stake here, not having VAR is crazy to me.
Grant Wahl:
Well, one of the initial reasons for VAR classically has been the Thierry Henry handball against Ireland that wasn't caught. France ends up qualifying for the World Cup. Ireland ends up not qualifying for the World Cup. And that is probably more than any single play cited as the reason for needing VAR. That happened more than a decade ago.
And here we are in 2021 and the final round of CONCACAF qualifying doesn't have VAR. And I'm fine with early rounds. I understand why the early rounds shouldn't have VAR. I get it, probably very expensive, but the final eight, come on. And we're still early in this tournament. I just hope later in this tournament when spots are on the line that we don't see a Thierry Henry handball take place that prevents a country from going to a World Cup.
Chris Wittyngham:
Or even in the last World Cup qualifying cycle, the game that Panama won that knocked the U.S. out, the first goal is laughably not a goal, hilariously, not a goal.
Grant Wahl:
Not for everyone. (laughs)
Chris Wittyngham:
That's a good point there. That's a fair point. It's a fair point. But yeah, I mean, and you mentioned that 2010 incident. If you're a proper U.S. men's national team fan, you spit two names, Torsten Frings and Koman Coulibaly. Those are the two names, the referee in that USA-Slovenia game, awful, awful. And I think you're still waiting for an explanation on that, Landon. And the funny thing about this incident is that the referee goes to the assistant for help because he needed help. And so, how much better would a video monitor have been than the assistant because he trots over and he is just, "Hey, can you help me out here? What did you see?" What better than video than to help him out?
Grant Wahl:
So, I'm going to tell a very quick story, by the way. So, 2010 World Cup, I'm in the post-game press conference, and I'm sitting next to Peter King from Sports Illustrated, the NFL writer, who had been sent to the World Cup as a novelty. But Peter was actually really curious about it. And I loved his approach.
Peter wanted to have a pool reporter question put to FIFA about Koman Coulibaly, and to get an explanation from FIFA about why the Maurice Edu goal was disallowed that would've given the U.S. the win, because nobody knew why it was disallowed. And Peter King was losing his mind sitting next to me because I was trying to tell him that FIFA doesn't have a pool reporter question, where you could find out what the referee actually thought. And here we are, 11 years later, we still don't know why that goal was disallowed.
Landon Donovan:
Yeah, Grant. So, let me ask you this, do you think it would be beneficial to have referees be interviewed after games?
Grant Wahl:
Yes. But it doesn't need to be like... I like the pool reporter question system, where you don't need to put the referee on live TV after a game and interrogate him or her, but just the information. Can you have a way for reporters or a group of reporters’ questions to get to the referee? And actually MLS does this. PRO does this.
I actually did a story this week on Howard Webb, who is the supervisor of officials for PRO. He refereed the 2010 World Cup final. And he told me actually that he gets a lot more pool reporter questions from the NWSL reporters than the MLS reporters, which I thought was interesting just in and of itself. But I do think to answer your question, yes, I think we should at least find out why a referee made a decision that was made. That seems like basic stuff to me.
Chris Wittyngham:
I think Landon wants the referees to get grilled like he does after a match.
"You made a bad decision, what happened?" I think that's what you want for referees, right?
Landon Donovan:
I guess. I guess, to your point earlier, Grant, you said, "I hope it doesn't come down to a final game or two and some of the..." But I'll just remind you, the points tonight are the same as the points in the-
Grant Wahl:
Correct.
Landon Donovan:
... last game, right? So, you can't just say, "Oh, well." Imagine this game finishes 0-0 tonight, and they should have been down a man after one minute. And those two points lost would've been the same as losing two points in the final fixture. So yeah, I just think there's way too much at stake, way too much at stake to not have VAR, or at least give the referees as much help as possible.
Grant Wahl:
We're going to wrap up, guys. Thanks for joining me and talking about the game. We're going to do it again after every single U.S. men's national team World Cup qualifier, that means after Sunday's game in Panama. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks.
Landon Donovan:
Can't wait, guys. Thank you.
Chris Wittyngham:
Thanks, Grant. Thanks, Landon.