Good Reads: Landon Donovan Joins Us to Talk USMNT-Costa Rica and Look Ahead to USA-Mexico.

USMNT legend Landon Donovan will join me and Chris Wittyngham for podcast episodes after every USMNT World Cup qualifier to break down the game and share insights from his vast experience. Those podcasts, in partnership with Meadowlark and Le Batard and Friends, will post on the night of or the day after every qualifier. Every audio episode of Fútbol with Grant Wahl is available for free in the archives on my Substack site, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and elsewhere.

For paying subscribers to this newsletter, we’re going to make the written versions of these podcasts available as well. Some people just prefer to consume written content over audio content. You can sign up for a subscription (free or paid) here.

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Grant Wahl:

Hey there. Welcome to Fútbol with Grant Wahl. Thank you so much for joining me. We've got another special episode today in partnership with Meadowlark and Le Batard & Friends with reaction from Landon Donovan, Chris Wittyngham, and me to the U.S. men's national team’s 2-1 win over Costa Rica on World Cup qualifying Matchday 6. Landon is in San Diego, where he coaches San Diego Loyal. Chris is in South Florida, and I am in Columbus, Ohio, where I'm writing for my Substack newsletter, which you should subscribe to, free or paid, at grantwahl.com. Guys, it's good to see you. How are you?

Landon Donovan:

What's going on, guys?

Chris Wittyngham:

I feel like in that intro two things stay the same and one thing changes. And I feel like it's just a reminder you that you're at every World Cup qualifier.

Landon Donovan:

That you travel a lot.

Do you think if Keylor Navas is in the game that he makes the save [on the U.S. game-winner]? “Yes. And when he came out at halftime, again, I was with my buddies in the bar and I said, "I have no idea what happened, but that is the biggest blessing for us." 100% he makes the save. 100% he makes the save on Weah’s shot. And then who knows what happens after that? Maybe the U.S. do score again, but there's no doubt in my mind. And so, that was a gift.” — Landon Donovan

Grant Wahl:

I travel a lot, man. I am looking forward to getting home for a few days, but I love covering these things onsite. I love the travel, the away games, the home games too. Loved being in that stadium tonight in Columbus, brand new stadium, it's absolutely gorgeous and just great location, great atmosphere. And the U.S. gets three points after a disastrous start going down 1-0 in the first minute on a truly strange goal by Costa Rica. Let's start with Landon. What were you thinking at that point?

Landon Donovan:

All right. So full disclosure, I was driving home. I was three minutes late to this bar with my buddies, and I get there and I see the screen and I'm like, "Guys, what the hell happened?" Last time we sat at that bar, we beat Jamaica 2-0. So they're like, "It's all your fault. You weren't here in time. Blah, blah, blah." So I actually had to see it on the screen of his phone.

And my thought was what everyone thought is, a little bit of a haphazard clearance by Zack [Steffen], but then just a sort of series of, I guess, mistakes, but also a bit of misfortune too. And then on first glance, you think, "Well, the player in front of Zack has to be offside." And then when you watch the replay, you see Sergiño [Dest] is kind of back in the play. Maybe he's off the field and that's like sort of this gray area too. So it was a bit of just a weird play, but a horrible start.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah. I can't imagine a worse one. And Zack Steffen is involved in that play, but I want to ask you both, like how much was Zack Steffen at fault, and how did you feel about him getting his first start in qualifying ahead of Matt Turner?

“I am fascinated by this game. I think it's going to be probably the most hyped U.S.-Mexico game ever.” — Landon Donovan

Chris Wittyngham:

I wasn't particularly bothered by it. I think there's a segment of the U.S. men's national team fan base that was kind of annoyed that this is another bit of tinkering that Gregg Berhalter did that felt unnecessary. I didn't think that Matt Turner was particularly good in Panama, particularly from a distribution point of view. And so, I wonder if Gregg Berhalter was kind of looking to improve in that area with Zack Steffen coming in.

I was incredibly defensive of the decision. I thought that Zack Steffen has kind of been unfairly maligned now because of how well Matt Turner has played. I don't think these are two things that are at odds. I still think Zack Steffen is an incredibly talented goalkeeper who has been chosen by Pep Guardiola to be a part of Manchester City. And also Matt Turner has had an incredible couple of years in Major League Soccer.

So I think that both are well capable of starting. But then in the first minute, he's kind of involved in a moment where you almost see the lack of game experience that he has in recent times, because he is shielded by a defender. It is an awkward situation, he comes racing off his line, which he's become comfortable with doing, playing for Pep and playing with Ederson.

And so he's way out of his goal, but then he comes back in, and I think he's kind of unnerved by this movement that happens in front of him, immediately goes to appeal for offside. And I think is kind of undone by circumstances that maybe if you were playing every week, wouldn't feel as bothersome or as new to him. So I do think that he is unlucky, but I think the bottom line is that's probably a save that he should be making, and probably would have made if he was playing regular games for his club.

Landon Donovan:

But I would say, Witty, I can't really tell, but I'm not sure he saw the ball. I thought maybe he might've been double-blinded by his own player and then by the Costa Rican player too. So it's hard to know if he saw it because it looked like he just reacted late. The first part is, it's exactly what you said. It's just not being game sharp and making a little bit of a crazy play flying out of his goal like that.

But that being said, there was plenty of time for the U.S. to settle, defend the cross, block the cross, defend the cross when it came in and then make a play. And they just didn't. So it was sort of a series of errors. But to the U S ‘s credit, the response was excellent. And what I've said over and over to you guys is, mounting pressure on teams, and they just did that over and over and over. And the last 20 minutes were basically a cakewalk because Costa Rica were so worn out.

Grant Wahl:

We talked after the third game in the window last month about how exhausted Honduras was. And you could just see it on the field in the second half. And the U.S. has more players that they use. They have, I think, the advantage of more infrastructural support, they fly charters. They have this whole recovery arsenal that Gregg Berhalter described a little bit when I asked him about it yesterday. And the advantage I think becomes very clear in the third game. And Costa Rica is an old team. I think Costa Rica has players that are older than you, Landon.

Landon Donovan:

[Laughs] That's saying a lot.

Grant Wahl:

And so, when Bryan Ruiz has the one great chance of the second half, a bad pass in the back by Miles Robinson, and then Miles Robinson catches up to Bryan Ruiz, who should've had a breakaway, and Robinson makes a great recovery run and the shot doesn't even really get off. But you felt like this is an old Costa Rica team. It's a lot of the guys from the 2014 World Cup team that got to the quarterfinals. And it's frankly not as good a Costa Rica team as we've seen in recent cycles.

So I do want to ask you a little bit about the goal that the U.S. gets because you talked about the U.S. recovery. They didn't panic after giving up the goal and kind of dominated, I thought, even in the first half. Hadn't scored a first half goal in nine games. Finally did here. It's a terrific goal by Sergiño Dest who can make special plays like this happen. But also it was a sequence of buildup that lasted 35 seconds, 13 passes involving nine of the 11 U.S. players. For me, one of the best U.S. team goals we've seen in a long time. What were your thoughts on seeing that one?

Landon Donovan:

Phenomenal. It was a phenomenal goal. So when they started building, there is a part of me that was like, "This is dangerous. This is dangerous. This is Do you think if Navas is in the game that he makes the save?

Landon Donovan:

Yes. And when he came out at halftime, again, I was with my buddies in the bar and I said, "I have no idea what happened, but that is the biggest blessing for us." 100% he makes the save. 100% he makes the save on Weah’s shot. And then who knows what happens after that? Maybe the U.S. do score again, but there's no doubt in my mind. And so, that was a gift.," but they made the next pass and the next pass and the next pass and they broke pressure. And then it gets to [Yunus] Musah finally. And when he gave it to Sergiño, I was talking to my teammates about the value of Musah.

And there are so few players in the modern game that will take the ball and just advance it on their own. It's always a pass, a pass, breaking lines, a pass, but players who can just take the ball and advance the ball on their own are so valuable. So when it gets to Sergiño Dest, I'm saying to them, "Just go, put them under pressure." And then he went to his left foot and you're kind of like, "Ah, the chance is gone." And then he unleashes the shot.

My buddy said something about goals with his left foot. And I said, "There's a decent chance he never scores another goal with his left foot. And certainly not like that. He'll probably score a lot with his right foot," but it was a phenomenal strike. Just the way it moved, it looked like he was left-footed and it was a phenomenal strike. We were just in awe.

Chris Wittyngham:

To have it curling away from the keeper with your weaker foot, it's crazy. And the fear is, when you go 1-0 down so early is Costa Rica are very used to playing in a low block, and they have Keylor Navas. So you're going to have to beat him with something special. And that's exactly what Sergiño Dest summoned. And I love the way that he has looked in the two home games in this window.

Because in the game script, when you're going into teams that are defending, you see him with freedom, you see him in space getting forward, having the ability to cut inside. I thought that Jon Champion and Taylor Twellman were talking about the notion of him and [Tim] Weah perhaps having redundant skillsets, given that they both like to go outside, but Dest actually likes to cut inside, a way of keeping a fullback honest affords him that space.

Almost kind of wonder going forward, because there's been so much conversation about how much he struggles away from home and how you can't really play him as the right back in a four when you're away from home and you're going to be under pressure, and that's not the environment for him. I almost wonder if given how good he is going forward and how much he enjoys that freedom, if playing him in a winger role might not be the craziest thing.

And putting him in an attacking position so that okay, away from home, we still have a little bit of a player who understands defensive responsibilities, but has the creativity, and you can kind of run your attack through him. And that's something I thought that the U.S. missed when they made all those changes in the game against Panama away from home, is they didn't have anyone that can run their attack through. And so I do think that Dest can represent a player who can do that and also put in a defensive shift.

Landon Donovan:

That's a great point. And I think if the U.S. are comfortable playing in a back three, at least when they build, when they have the ball, he's perfect as sort of a right wingback, right winger and right back all in one, he can do all of it. And I think away from home, your point is perfect. I think using him to help defensively away from home as a right winger, and then he's clearly good enough with the ball to make plays. So I think that as Gregg and the staff assess these first two rounds, I think that's a very effective way to use him.

Grant Wahl:

I remember this game in 2017, huge disappointing home loss to Costa Rica. And I remember Keylor Navas had a ridiculous save on Christian Pulisic in that game when it was still a one-goal game. And I was stunned. It was one of the best saves I've ever seen in person by a player. And Navas goes out at halftime of this game, and Navas isn't the goalkeeper he was five years ago, but he's still a very good goalkeeper for one of the world's best club teams, still plays at least half the time so far this season with PSG. And I do wonder, the game-winning goal for the U.S., which I guess has been officially ruled an own goal, Tim Weah with the shot. Do you think if Navas is in the game that he makes the save?

Landon Donovan:

Yes. And when he came out at halftime, again, I was with my buddies in the bar and I said, "I have no idea what happened, but that is the biggest blessing for us." 100% he makes the save. 100% he makes the save on Weah’s shot. And then who knows what happens after that? Maybe the U.S. do score again, but there's no doubt in my mind. And so, that was a gift. We'll certainly take it.

And the other gift we got tonight was, I think literally the only player in CONCACAF that we wanted on that midfield breakaway was Bryan Ruiz. [Laughs] I think that was the one player you would have picked out of anybody. There's a decent chance that Witty, you would have gotten there faster, but as it's happening-

Grant Wahl:

I've seen Chris run. I've seen Chris run. I've seen him run. I don't know. [Laughs]

Landon Donovan:

It literally looked like he was running in quicksand. Yeah. I was just going, "Please stop. Please stop. Please stop." Thankfully, it was the right guy who picked that pass off.

Chris Wittyngham:

It's not only the slowest man in the field, but he also had to cut onto his left. He wasn't going to score a right-footed goal. So he's got to find a cutback window. I think that's Miles Robinson's greatest skill. In some ways, that play is a perfect encapsulation of both his greatest strength and weakness, which is that man can cover so much ground in vulnerable situations.

I've seen it at Inter Miami at ton. Miami and Atlanta have played a bunch in the last couple of years, and Miles Robinson is one of the first players where actually doing games in the stadium really helped me because, yeah, Miles Robinson looks good when you're watching on television. But when you see him just covering 1v1s over and over again, and that's not necessarily a highlight of it, because it's Bryan Ruiz on the break. That's not exactly super impressive.

But he makes up the ground and he puts in the shift, but also he gave the ball away initially, and his inability to play is what will hold him back in his career from potentially playing a really high level maybe in Europe in the Bundesliga and wherever, I think Miles Robinson would already be there if not for his ability to play with his feet. So I think that's just the one thing he's got to improve on and it nearly cost him, but thankfully it didn't fall to any other top Costa Rican players. It fell to Bryan Ruiz.

Landon Donovan:

But he's perfect to play in a game like this at home where you're going to dominate the ball and be in the opponent’s end because he just puts out fires. And so, that's the time when you can play him. When you're going to have all the ball, you let Tyler [Adams] and you let Weston [McKennie] make the game. And then he's just there to put out all those dangerous moments. And credit to him, after the mistake, his reaction was immediate and he made a huge play to put out that fire.

Grant Wahl:

One other play that I wanted to ask you about was actually moving back to the first half. So Chris Richards starts his first qualifier in central defense. I've been waiting for this. I kind of hoped it would happen earlier. And there are people, I talked about this a couple of nights ago with Chris Richards when I got him one-on-one. There's people who think that the Richards-Robinson tandem could be the U.S. center back tandem for the coming years.

And so we got this opportunity to see them tonight. First half, there's an incident where the U.S. is in its own end. Weston McKennie, I think, was sort of at fault, not finding a way to break out. And then the ball ends up coming centrally, Yunus Musah comes back and kind of hits the ball. It gives Costa Rica a great scoring chance. Chris Richards dives in. From where I was sitting in the stadium, I couldn't tell, was there a penalty shout on that play? But in the end, Costa Rica doesn't get the goal.

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. It was a combination of Richards and Steffen kind of getting there. Richard puts in a tackle and the referee just kind of waves play on. They didn't really go back to the incident because I guess enough happened afterwards. But I don't know. I couldn't see clearly if that was an all-ball challenge. But yeah, that was kind of like the moment where he was tested the most.

Couple of other moments where I liked where he stepped and ventured into the midfield and was trying to keep, like you mention, Landon, all the time, keeping the pressure on the opponent, you have to have center backs that step and then win the ball high and then keep it, and then they've got to get back into their shape. Richards did that on a couple of occasions, but I'm not really sure that this is the game where you really identify that.

I think it's when you're the one facing the pressure that I'm kind of interested in Chris Richards. People talk about his ball-playing ability, but you want to see frankly what Walker Zimmerman did in the first two games of the window. And particularly in Panama, I thought he played really well in those two games, and was one of the chief reasons why it wasn't worse than the one goal that they gave up.

Because I think Zimmerman is up for the kind of challenge defensively. You've got a couple of center backs for me in Zimmerman and Robinson that are up to the challenge. But if you want to take that step forward, you have more talented players. In theory, the most talented center back partnership is Brooks and Richards, but Robinson and Zimmerman do the job for what you need them to do right now.

Landon Donovan:

I'll tell you, I think we got three gifts tonight. We talked about two of them, Keylor Navas going out, Bryan Ruiz on a breakaway instead of someone else. But in my opinion, that should have been probably a penalty on that play. He puts his foot in the way as, I don't remember who it was from Costa Rica, tries to score.

So thankfully there's no VAR in that moment, but also there probably could have been a penalty pushing the back on [Ricardo] Pepi in the second half. So maybe it's relatively even, but I thought that was a really dangerous moment. And on another day that could have been a really, really bad scenario for us.

Grant Wahl:

After the game in the press conference, I asked Gregg Berhalter about why he thought the central midfield was so much better in this game for the U.S. than it was against Panama. And obviously the personnel was different. You had Tyler Adams, who I think should always start in the central midfield and not at right back and not on the bench. And then you had McKennie, decent game, I thought.

He had a couple of moments like I was talking about earlier where he caused some problems for U.S. And Musah was much better in this game than he was against Panama and rebounded well from getting yanked at halftime in that game and played with confidence again tonight. I think he's really positively affected by having Adams and McKennie with him in the central midfield.

Berhalter to answer my question said that he was really much happier tonight with the movement off the ball, just the overall movement in the midfield, in the connections that took place. Paul Carr had a stat that he put up that there were 33 passes in the first half completed between the U.S. central midfielders. That’s three times as many as we saw from the three central midfielders in Panama in the first half. So clearly a much better performance.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. It's just personnel. I wish there was some like magical reason why. It's just Weston and Tyler together are just so dominant. And then complimented well by Musah who, like I said earlier, could just take the ball and run by people. So I thought they were dominant. Tyler was excellent. Weston had some bad moments, but he also had some great moments and he was all over the place. So, they were just dominant, those three. And to me, it just came down to personnel.

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. I think Weston in the first half was giving the ball away in bad areas. I think showed a lot of why I think his progress kind of stunts at certain points is because there just isn't enough end product and he loses the ball in bad situations that can lead to counters down the other end. It got better in the second half. I think people that kind of like maintain that as a game result kind of stuck with it in the first half and didn't adjust when it kind of got better in the second.

But I think that's certainly an area for him to improve. I do kind of wonder though, obviously, it is personalities, they are immensely talented players, Yunus Musah I think is awesome and is destined to make Valencia a lot of money and hopefully play a lot for them more often in central midfield because they actually use him more as a wide man in Valencia. I hope that changes.

However, I do kind of wonder where the room for improvement from that group is just in terms of getting other guys in there. How does [Gianluca] Busio fit when you play him with Adams? How does [Luca] De La Torre fit? Because I think the key lesson from this is what you said, Grant, which is, him starting in the holding role in central midfield, not at right back, not on the bench, and starting. If you're going to play him 45 minutes, have it be the first 45 minutes. So you set the tone.

But Tyler Adams is an indispensable part of the team. You cannot take him out of this team. And I also think he's gotten criticized in the past for not necessarily being the best passer and occasionally like part of the way that they moved him to right back so that they can accommodate Wil Trapp or Jackson Yueill or someone who's more thought of as a passer. And I think Tyler Adams is plenty good as a passer. You see him, he picks out some switches, he takes some chances with his passing. I think he is better than he's given credit for at that skill.

Landon Donovan:

He's got to play in the central midfield. He's too impactful. I actually think the best complement of players is those three that played tonight. I think those are the best three. You have to find a way obviously to get Christian [Pulisic] and Gio [Reyna] on the field when they're healthy, and it's going to be tough because Brenden Aaronson's been playing well too. But those are good problems to have. But I think that mix of three was the best I've seen just in the way the chemistry works between them.

Grant Wahl:

So as with the last window, the U.S. wins the third game. Important, obviously. This was a pivotal game here because the U.S. was losing at one point. Zero points tonight would have been a disaster. And we would have been talking in this podcast about Gregg Berhalter being on the hot seat, and the U.S. could have been in as low as fifth place in this tournament, would have been passed by Costa Rica, among other teams. And getting the three points, huge difference. Now the U.S. ... we're still recording this during the Mexico game, I think, is that game over yet?

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. Finished 2-0 to Mexico.

Grant Wahl:

Okay. So the U.S. is in second place behind Mexico. Obviously USA-Mexico is the next game. So less than a month away, just down the road in Cincinnati, there's going to be a huge buildup. I have so many friends that are already texting me like, "Can I get tickets?" By the way, I'm a journalist. I don't even buy tickets. I don't know how to get tickets. I've never bought tickets in my life.

But like the buzz is already growing for this game. And I think it's going to be by far ... I think it's the biggest U.S.-Mexico game we've seen in the U.S. And it's just going to be something very exciting, the vibe leading up to it. How are you feeling about this? Because the U.S. is on 11 points, Mexico on 14. So the U.S. kind of needs to win three points at home.

Chris Wittyngham:

It reminds me a bit of we've talked a lot about, Grant, recently, the Manchester City-Liverpool rivalry, and like how those games are so often determined by the first 15 minutes. And I think it's going to look the same in Cincinnati where the U.S. is going to be put under pressure in the first 15 minutes. And it's going to be, how do they respond? Do you have enough guys that are up for that occasion that are not intimidated by it?

That, "Okay, we got to knock it along with them. Then we have to rest and reorganize and figure out how we're going to play from there." Is Gregg Berhalter going to take any chances where you're going to see a lineup and go, "I don't know about that group. Are Reyna and Pulisic going to be fit? How does that change the scope of the game?" So I think you want to see, and given the fact that it's a two-game window, it's supposed to a three-game window, it allows you the chance to just pick your best team.

These are our guys. We're not changing system. We're not bringing along any projects. We're going to take the evidence of the first six games and pick the best performers from the first six games, pick our best players, and have a real go at Mexico. Now, I think it's going to be a really tough game because Mexico have looked really strong in this window. They seem to handle these away qualifiers better than the U.S. do.

I just think they're a better team. They have taken on their manager's instructions a bit better. They're more comfortable. But the U.S. of course can win because it's USA-Mexico at home. And I think that they've got absolutely a chance to go and win this game, but it depends on how well they handle the mental occasion, which I think from the beginning, they have not always gotten right.

Landon Donovan:

Yeah. I think a key point you made there Witty is, this is a two-game window, and it's, I believe there are four days in between games, right?

Chris Wittyngham:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Landon Donovan:

The 12th and 16th.

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah. It's a Friday-Tuesday.

Landon Donovan:

That is a massive ... Yeah. That extra 24 hours is crucial in your recovery. So if you're traveling, generally you take away a day of recovery, but they get it back. So they will be fully recovered by the time they get to Jamaica. So this is no rotation or change this or change ... It's like, play your best team twice in a row and get as many points as you can.

I am fascinated by this game. I think it's going to be probably the most hyped U.S.-Mexico g

ame ever, just because of where it falls in qualifying right now with both teams on top. But it goes back to your first point, Grant, tonight was massive. If they're sitting on nine points instead of 11, that game is so much more important. Of course, it's important regardless, but it would have been basically a must-win. The U.S. has already dropped two points at home. You can't drop too many more points at home.

The key is though they've already picked up four on the road. And that goes a long way. I would have expected by now two or three points on the road, but they've already picked up four. So that gave them a little cushion, but they lost the two at home. So they're basically where they probably should be. But this game against Mexico is huge. And I believe if they win that game, it's not a foregone conclusion. We're only halfway through, but I believe if they win that game, they're going to qualify.

Grant Wahl:

By the way, I was in Mexico City for a day last Friday and was talking to folks down there and a dude said to me, "I hate Landon Donovan." [laughs]

Landon Donovan:

Grant, I would say there's probably millions and millions of other people who share the same sentiment. American, Mexican, and other.

Chris Wittyngham:

I disagree. I disagree. Who could hate you, Landon?

Landon Donovan:

All right. Maybe hundreds of thousands. [laughs]

Grant Wahl:

By the way, I feel like the time has come, it's after a win here. So the tone is maybe a little more upbeat than after the Panama game. There was a sound section that we wanted to play for you, a clip, Landon, from an earlier podcast that we had in which you were talking about some of the best clubs in the world. And we wanted to play that clip for you here.

Landon Donovan:

[sound clip] Oftentimes guys, and you know this from watching, these games don't look like soccer games. They don't look like soccer games when you're watching Barcelona, you're watching Juventus or you're watching Norwich or you're ... these are not soccer games.

Grant Wahl:

Norwich? That's the club you think of right after the other two?

Landon Donovan:

Well, that's a high quality soccer playing club [laughs]. No, what came to my mind was Josh Sargent. So playing in El Salvador is not the same as playing away to Man United. Yeah. I don't know what the hell I was thinking. Sorry. [laughs]

Grant Wahl:

There's only so many major European clubs that can come to mind. And you know what?

Landon Donovan:

Barça Juve, Real Madrid, AC Milan, and Norwich. [laughs[

Grant Wahl:

That's last-place Norwich in the Premier League.

Landon Donovan:

Aren't they joining the Super League, Norwich?

Grant Wahl:

I'm sure the Norwich supporters love you now, putting them in the same breath.

Landon Donovan:

I have three really good friends who are Norwich supporters. So they'll be very happy to hear that.

Grant Wahl:

And we do have one other clip that we wanted to play for you that came from, I think it's from a CBS broadcast from their studio show. Will you all play that, Chris?

Kate Abdo:

I like this question, which U.S. men's national team teammate would you make lie down behind the wall? Glenn.

Clint Dempsey:

I'll put Charlie [Davies] down there.

Charlie Davies:

I knew. I thought all three would say me because I'm the striker. You need me up there for the counter attack. So you can't put me down on the wall. I'm going to put someone small, Landon!

Grant Wahl:

You got anything in response here, my friend like-

Landon Donovan:

Right off, that was Charlie, right?

Chris Wittyngham:

Yeah.

Landon Donovan:

I'm taller than Charlie, first of all. And I'm stronger. Actually, I'm not stronger. I wasn't faster. I wasn't stronger. Yeah. All right, Charlie, I’ll remember that. I’ll remember that.

Grant Wahl:

By the way, this whole putting the man down on the ground, which Lionel Messi had to do, weirdly, for PSG in a Champions League game recently.

Chris Wittyngham:

I love that.

Grant Wahl:

Why are we just seeing this now? Guys have been trying to go under a free kick wall for decades, right?

Landon Donovan:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris Wittyngham:

I think I saw a free kick recently where it was under the wall and I guess the team forgot to do it. There's still teams out there that aren't doing this. But yeah, it was definitely one of those where some team did it, it made headlines. It was a complete copycat situation where the rest of the world decided, "Hey, we've got to put someone under the wall. Why didn't any of us think of this?"

Landon Donovan:

I don't know who started it, but it's one of those where like, if it's Pep or [Jürgen] Klopp or somebody who has a lot of credibility and they do it, everyone else is like, "Why the hell wouldn't we?" I remember not too many years ago now where I think it was Pep who just stopped putting guys on the post on defending corner kicks. And next thing you knew, it was like, "Well, why did we ever have someone on the posts? We would never put anyone on the posts." And it's just the way world football, but all sports go. It's just copycat.

Grant Wahl:

Very good stuff, guys. Always enjoyable to talk to you. We will be back doing this for USA-Mexico's the next one. That's a big one. And always appreciate you coming on.

Landon Donovan:

Thank you guys. Grant, get some rest, man.