For Your Reading Pleasure: Landon Donovan Joins Us to Break Down El Salvador-USMNT
Thrilled to Have Landon Donovan and Chris Wittyngham's Voices For Every USMNT World Cup Qualifier In Partnership With Meadowlark and Le Batard & Friends
BIG NEWS! We just announced that USMNT legend Landon Donovan will join me and Chris Wittyngham for podcast episodes after every USMNT World Cup qualifier to break down the game and share insights from his vast experience. Those podcasts, in partnership with Meadowlark and Dan Le Batard & Friends, will post on the night of or the day after every qualifier. Every audio episode of Fútbol with Grant Wahl is available for free in the archives on my Substack site, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and elsewhere.
The audio versions of my podcasts are free, including here, but for paying subscribers to this newsletter we’re going to make the written versions of these podcasts available as well. Some people just prefer to consume written content over audio content. Since we just launched, we’re making everything free for the first couple weeks, but these written podcast discussions will soon be behind the paywall. You can sign up for a paid subscription here.
Grant Wahl:
Hey there, welcome to Fútbol with Grant Wahl. Thanks so much for joining me. We've got a special episode today in partnership with Meadowlark and Le Batard and Friends, with reaction from Landon Donovan, Chris Wittyngham and me to the U.S. men's national team's scoreless tie at El Salvador in the World Cup qualifying opener. Landon is in San Diego where he coaches San Diego Loyal. Chris is in South Florida. I am in El Salvador for just a couple more hours. Guys, it's great to see you. How are you?
Landon Donovan:
Good morning!
Chris Wittyngham:
Morning! Doing all right, Grant. Excited to do this!
“Everybody from afar can open up an app and see the result and go, oh my god, how did we tie El Salvador? You have no clue until you play in these games. So I think it was probably a little unrealistic [for Tyler Adams] to say a nine-point week. I like the optimism from Tyler, but the reality is, if you can take a point from your first game on the road, you take a point, you get out of there. And the real pressure is in the home matches.” — Landon Donovan
Grant Wahl:
I am going on 90 minutes sleep after working most of the night. So any apologies I'll get out of the way right now. But lots to talk about even though it was a scoreless tie. Let's dive right in with you, Landon. What were your top-line thoughts watching that qualifier?
Landon Donovan:
Yeah, it looked like a typical away qualifier, especially early in a cycle. You could tell from the El Salvador perspective, they were still of the belief that they can qualify for a World Cup. I kind of always chopped these qualifiers up into games and the timing of the games, when the teams like El Salvador still believe... And you don't know early on, they might be a team that can contend and qualify.
“I watched the Barcelona game against Getafe last weekend, and Sergiño [Dest] comes in for 30 minutes and he's really good. Really good. And then you watch him last night and you're like, is this the same player? He's clearly a talented, good player, but [playing away in CONCACAF] ends up not being about soccer.” — Landon Donovan
Versus sometimes you'd get towards the end of the cycle and you'd play a team that was mathematically eliminated or all but eliminated, and the vibe was much different. So that was a typical team-that-believes-they're-still-in-it performance. And then it was just really a bunch of half-chances. A couple for El Salvador, a few more for the U.S., mainly on headers, but no real clear opportunities for either team. And that's kind of what I would have expected in this game.
Grant Wahl:
And Landon, is there any disappointment at all? I mean, it seems like over the years we've always looked at getting a point on the road in World Cup qualifying as if you do that and you win your home games, you'll qualify for the World Cup, that's okay. But then Tyler Adams and a couple other guys this week were saying, we want a nine-point week. Which would mean two road wins and winning all three of these qualifiers. When you heard him say that, what did you think?
“Everybody in that country knows what's going on on that day at that time, and they're wanting you to lose to their team. So then you get to the hotel, and it's this constant mental challenge of trying to focus on a 90-minute soccer game when there's all these other distractions going on. And so until you have enough of the experiences, you end up focusing on all the other things instead of the 90 minutes of soccer. And that's a challenge, especially for a young, talented group. Four years from now, I think this same exact [U.S.] team goes there and wins 2-0.” — Landon Donovan on away qualifiers in CONCACAF
Landon Donovan:
It made me think exactly what I was talking to people about yesterday is, until you play in these games, you have no idea. And everybody from afar can open up an app and see the result and go, oh my god, how did we tie El Salvador? You have no clue until you play in these games. So I think it was probably a little unrealistic to say a nine-point week (laughs). I like the optimism from Tyler, but the reality is, if you can take a point from your first game on the road, you take a point, you get out of there.
And the real pressure is in the home matches. You have to win your home games. And you might slip along the way. Canada's a very good team, there's no guarantee we beat Canada on Sunday. But this is an okay start. Not perfect, but it's an okay start. And now we’ve got to win at home, and then try to get something out of the game in Honduras.
Grant Wahl:
Chris, watching this game from where you were, what stood out to you the most?
Chris Wittyngham:
Well, what stood out to me in the aftermath was a sense of negativity. You're right that there is the feeling, Landon, that the U.S., because they didn't beat El Salvador, it's some grand disappointment. Because we've been promised this golden generation, all these talented players are going to Europe and succeeding. Therefore, you hammer El Salvador 5-0 away from home. And I'm just kind of curious as to why that didn't happen, but also why U.S. fans haven't learned this lesson yet. Maybe it's because there're new fans and there's new hype, but I don't know what fans were expecting.
I would've liked for some more open-play chances. There were a couple of opportunities for Josh Sargent, particularly, around the penalty area to just have a strike, there were a couple of loose passes in the final third. There could have been more creation there for sure, and I thought the U.S. started pretty well in the game and then kind of had to survive. But I just don't know what fans were expecting, really. This was going to be ugly. You're going to have to probably nick something off a set-piece. I thought Miles Robinson should have scored fairly early in the game, and you wonder how much the game changes at that point. But I think I'm kind of seasoned as a U.S. fan of knowing that these games are different.
“In Costa Rica one trip, I remember getting to the hotel and when we arrived, it was like 8 pm … All of a sudden, a big truck pulled up with about 12 massive speakers on it and started playing music. And I'm not kidding, you guys, it went from 9 pm until 9 am, all night, with the bass just blaring outside the hotel.” — Landon Donovan
Landon Donovan:
Yeah, you're finally learning. We need everybody to learn. I think the reality is you do have a bunch of new or newer U.S. fans who come around, usually after every World Cup, and start to learn the game. But again, until you've seen enough of these games, you can't fully understand. And for the players, until you've played in enough of these games, you don't understand how challenging it is. So I promise when you interview guys after the game... I didn't go through and read every interview, but they would say, wow, that was more difficult than I thought.
And the reality is, when you look at this, guys, when you look at El Salvador's roster, just look at their roster. In essence, it's a couple guys who are of MLS quality, but the majority are guys who play through Central America or in USL here, the league we're in. So when you compare that to some of the guys playing at big European clubs, on paper, you would say, yeah, of course you smash them. But it just doesn't happen that way (laughs). I can't stress that enough.
Chris Wittyngham:
So can you describe what that is, though? Because I think a lot of fans are hearing this cliché, right? It's difficult to win away in CONCACAF. I saw a stat last night that like 18% of away teams have won in CONCACAF since like 1998. It's really hard. But can you describe what that is?
Landon Donovan:
Sure. It's a mix of things. And you know this too, Grant. It starts when you get on the plane in the States and head over, right? So it's a travel day that gets you there. The minute you arrive in the airport, you feel like you are in a version of hell, right? I mean, there are people everywhere. They are somewhat friendly, but for the most part, everybody in that country knows what's going on on that day at that time, and they're wanting you to lose to their team.
So then you get to the hotel, and it's this constant mental challenge of trying to focus on a 90-minute soccer game when there's all these other distractions going on. And so until you have enough of the experiences, you end up focusing on all the other things instead of the 90 minutes of soccer. And that's a challenge, especially for a young, talented group, that is a challenge.
Four years from now, I think this same exact team goes there and wins 2-0. But until they have enough of those experiences to draw on, it's going to be a challenge. This is going to be a battle through all of qualifying. I promise you, Honduras will be the same next week. Panama is going to be the same. Costa Rica is going to be the same. Jamaica is going to be the same. Mexico is going to be even more difficult. We’ve got to get used to seeing this over the next 13 games.
“With the lineup selection, you almost have two completely different mentalities when you play away and at home in CONCACAF. At home, you enforce your identity and the way you play, and you dominate teams that way. On the road, it's just survival.” — Landon Donovan
Grant Wahl:
Landon, what was the craziest situation or response or stuff you ever dealt with at an away qualifier in CONCACAF?
Landon Donovan:
There were a few ... off the field in Costa Rica one trip, I remember getting to the hotel and when we arrived, it was like 8 pm. We had dinner up in the training room, getting treatment, and all of a sudden, a big truck pulled up with about 12 massive speakers on it and started playing music. And I'm not kidding, you guys, it went from 9 pm until 9 am, all night, with the bass just blaring outside the hotel. So as you can imagine, it was a little difficult to sleep that night. That was off the field, a memory.
On the field, at the old Saprissa stadium [in Costa Rica], the level of intimidation there is hard to describe. So when you get there, it's dark. Really dark. And in the locker room, it was not a nice new stadium. And above our locker room was where their supporters section was, their barra brava or whatever it was. And as you guys know, and you saw yesterday, Grant, people are arriving at the stadium hours and hours and hours before the game. So two hours before the game when we arrive, that place was full. And they were chanting and cheering. So our whole locker room would shake, because they were right above us. It would shake, like physically shake. And I don't care how many times you've been there. If you are a human being, you are going to feel some intimidation in that moment.
Grant Wahl:
You know what's crazy is, they built a new national stadium in Costa Rica, built by the Chinese government as part of their foreign policy, and it's a lot less intimidating, totally less intimidating than the old Saprissa was. Because there's a track around it, it's very modern. The U.S. still loses there regularly, but it's not as intimidating. And I just found out, here in El Salvador, I love the Cuscatlán stadium, it's very intimidating. The Chinese are going to build a stadium here too!
So we'll see how long it takes, but they're beginning construction on some $100 million national stadium, for which China will extract all the natural resources of El Salvador in return. But the global political stuff is a real story here. And I do wonder if it will be as intimidating in the future when the U.S. plays El Salvador in that future stadium.
Landon, are there any particular U.S. players' performances that stood out to you from an unexpectedly positive way, or even an unexpectedly negative way?
“Josh Sargent reminds me of [Brian] McBride a lot in that when the service was good, McBride was at times the best striker we had. No question. But when there wasn't service, it was hard for him because Brian wasn't the type of guy, nor is Josh, who can take the ball, spin a guy and score. Or take the ball, dribble by a guy, and score. So in a game like that, respectfully to Josh Sargent, I thought he was going to struggle in that game unless there was any kind of good service, and that's what ended up happening.” — Landon Donovan
Landon Donovan:
Honestly, not really. That game all in all, and I'll be curious to hear your thoughts, Chris. That game all in all was exactly what I thought it would be. I thought it would be choppy, disjointed, fouls, ugly, guys who you thought would have better performances because they are better soccer players than they showed, because they're on a bad field in bad conditions, in a new country they've never been to. Sergiño [Dest] comes to mind, right? You expect better, but it's just not the reality.
I watched the Barcelona game against Getafe last weekend, and Sergiño comes in for 30 minutes and he's really good. Really good. And then you watch him last night and you're like, is this the same player? He's clearly a talented, good player, but it ends up not being about soccer. And so it became exactly what I thought it would be. There were a few good moments, Weston [McKennie] had a few good moments. But it was what I would have expected.
Chris Wittyngham:
And Sergiño tries a couple of skill-related things. It's like, no man, the skill here, it's not what this is about. But I've always described CONCACAF as like a magnetic force. Tyler Adams is usually very controlled. Obviously he patrols the midfield so well, but he does it in a very controlled way and it's about dominating territory. There were times where it just seemed like he was chasing after guys, and was really trying to put a tackle in and kind of show, you're not going to shoulder me off the ball.
There was one really good moment where he had where he just won a physical duel and was able to hang on to possession. But I thought he was kind of drawn into the occasion. The refereeing is always all over the place. There were some moments where ticky-tack fouls are called, and there were some moments where heinous challenges go unwhistled.
“I don't care how fit you are, it's almost impossible for any player in world football, with travel in these environments, with the heat, to play three games at a high level in a week, of this quality. So that will be a big, big piece of this as qualifying goes on. And you will see the U.S. team and the Mexico team in particular really take advantage of that.” — Landon Donovan
So again, for me, I actually thought that the U.S., in the first 10 minutes, like, okay, this is going to be a lot different! The U.S. are playing here. I read reports that the playing surface was not going to be as ugly and bad to play on. So I was like, oh, the U.S. are playing some decent stuff.
But look, for me, CONCACAF is a magnetic force that draws you into it. You cannot escape it. And you go running around chasing challenges, and you're trying to figure the game out more than you're trying to really implement your style of play. Which I think is probably the thing that's most frustrating. Gregg Berhalter is just, I have ideas about how we want to play. And they're very hard to execute in these kinds of conditions.
Landon Donovan:
Yeah. If I'm Gregg... And he knows that this as well, I mean, he's played in all these games. You almost have two completely different mentalities. And I wanted to get into this too, with the lineup selection. You almost have two completely different mentalities when you play away and at home in CONCACAF.
At home, you enforce your identity and the way you play, and you dominate teams that way. On the road, it's just survival. If you have a few stretches where you can enforce yourself on the opponent and do that, great. But the reality is it's hard to sustain that for 90 minutes for all the reasons we've talked about. So you just survive. If you make a few special plays, you win the game. If not, you likely draw the game and you get out of there, hopefully healthy, and you move on to the next one.
Grant Wahl:
It's interesting, Gregg Berhalter in the post-game press conference, we asked him different questions, but he thought, like what Chris was saying, that it was a little too hectic at times in this game. That he wanted to see maybe a little more control, but it's just really difficult to try and do that in this environment.
I wanted to bring up Josh Sargent because he's a centerforward. He's gotten a fair number of opportunities to start in significant games for the U.S. now. Hasn't lit it up. Hasn't been terrible. Landon, you played centerforward at times for the U.S. over the years. What do you think about Josh Sargent? And at what point should potentially Gregg Berhalter consider starting somebody else in that position?
Landon Donovan:
So we don't have all the context, so it's hard for me to know. I promise you that Gregg and his staff planned out this week very carefully. So just because guys played in this game does not mean they are the first-choice starter at any position. I want to preface that. Obviously Christian [Pulisic] wasn't there, so that tells you that. But I think the like-for-like with Josh Sargent is ... and it's not exactly the same, but it reminds me of [Brian] McBride a lot in that, when the service was good, McBride was at times the best striker we had. No question. But when there wasn't service, it was hard for him because Brian wasn't the type of guy, nor is Josh, who can take the ball, spin a guy and score. Or take the ball, dribble by a guy, and score.
So in a game like that, respectfully to Josh Sargent, I thought he was going to struggle in that game unless there was any kind of good service, and that's what ended up happening. When he plays in Germany, and now at Norwich, when there's good service and he can be around the goal and in front of the goal, that's where he's very good. But if the game doesn't look like that, it's going to be hard for him. And he still battled, and he worked hard, and he gave the team some good moments in that way, but it was going to be a hard night for him.
Grant Wahl:
I do want to give a shout out to Tim Ream, because I know of any player who started last night when that lineup came out, Tim Ream doesn't want to go on Twitter anytime soon. But maybe he does after the game, because the response was, wait, Tim Ream was solid! And it's funny how fandom works, right? But Tim Ream, clearly chosen along with DeAndre Yedlin to start in this game, may not be, as you say, the No. 1 choice in that position, but the experience was there with Tim Ream, the experience showed. He played a good game.
Landon Donovan:
He did. And this is to my point earlier, guys, is there's no question that there are other centerbacks who are more athletic, more talented in some ways than Tim. But Tim's been through these wars. He's seen all of these, and DeAndre has seen a bunch of them too. And there's a lot of value in that. So I'm sure, like I said, Gregg was very calculated in who he was playing. I'm sure it'll be a completely different team in a lot of ways on Sunday against Canada, and then completely a different team again against Honduras.
And one thing that people need to pay attention to as these three-game weeks now start happening. This is new in CONCACAF, right? So there will be a very distinct advantage for the U.S. and Mexico as you get to the end of these three-game weeks. The other teams just don't have the depth. And I don't care how fit you are, it's almost impossible for any player in world football, with travel in these environments, with the heat, to play three games at a high level in a week, of this quality. So that will be a big, big piece of this as qualifying goes on. And you will see the U.S. team and the Mexico team in particular really take advantage of that.
Chris Wittyngham:
I'd also presume a day less training would probably be difficult as well, because you're already trying to piece together something so quickly. But I wanted to ask you, Landon, did you ever feel like there was a moment when you crossed the Rubicon, where you went from not being ready for those kinds of moments and occasions, to you were and your teammates were, and you kind of felt comfortable in these environments as much as anyone can?
Landon Donovan:
Yeah, that's a great question. I don't remember it off the top of my head, but one game actually, and it was at the Cuscatlán [on October 9, 2004], comes to mind. I was in my early 20s, and the reason I remember the game so vividly is, before the game Bruce [Arena, the USMNT coach] came to me and he said, ‘We want you to wear the armband for this game.’ And we had a two-game qualifying week, we were playing away at El Salvador and then home to Panama. And for those two games, he gave me the armband. He spoke with the older players and ran it by them first, Claudio [Reyna], and wanted to make sure that they were on board with it. And we went away to El Salvador and we won 2-0. Eddie Johnson scored, and McBride. And I did feel in that moment, like that was a turning point.
Yes, it was El Salvador, and at that point they weren't a great team, but it was still hard to go there and get points. Other teams had gone there and drawn games or lost games. And then we went home and we smashed Panama. And that did feel like a little bit of a turning point for me personally. But we also had a very veteran team. I think Frankie Hejduk played in that game, maybe [Jeff] Agoos, we had McBride, we had a very veteran team. So we had a bunch of guys who knew exactly how to play in those games.
Grant Wahl:
We're going to be doing these podcast discussions after every U.S. World Cup qualifier. Sometimes it'll be the night of the game. Sometimes there'll be the next day. Landon's got a busy schedule. He actually coaches a team, remember, folks. But really enjoyed talking to both of you, Chris Wittyngham, Landon Donovan-
Chris Wittyngham:
Can I very quickly interrupt? Grant, I feel like you asked us questions, we should ask you. What was the scene like? What was the atmosphere like? Give us some details of what it was like in the Cuscatlán.
Grant Wahl:
It was my first time there. It was awesome. But we got there, the media bus, it was like five hours, maybe four and a half hours before kickoff. And that's just the way it can work sometimes in Central America, they opened the gates eight and a half hours before kickoff for fans. Everyone had to show their vaccination card, but it was a packed house.
I have never heard a national anthem louder than the one I heard last night. It was this sort of visceral, overwhelming thing that I wasn't expecting. I've been to a lot of these places over the years, and it kind of knocked me on my rear. And I did wonder in that moment what the U S players might've been thinking, especially the ones like Sergiño Dest who hadn't played in that type of environment before.
But the field didn't look too bad on TV, I think. But, like Tim Ream was saying, not a great field at all, after the game in terms of his experience of it. So yeah, that was kind of my impression of the whole thing. I'm kind of bummed out that they're going to leave this stadium at some point as their national stadium, because I love the sort of classic Latin American, Central American-style stadium. Closest thing we ever had to in the U.S. was RFK Stadium, which I think is condemned now.
But yeah, I would encourage any listener, if you have any interest in traveling to a game, an away qualifier, anywhere in CONCACAF, do it. It's awesome. You'll be safe as long as you're smart. And it's a real life experience.
Landon Donovan:
That's awesome.
Grant Wahl:
But thanks for interrupting! No, that's totally fine. I'm glad you wanted my sense of things here, because I like being on-site for stuff. But like I said, we're going to do more of these podcasts after future World Cup qualifiers for the U.S. Fútbol with Grant Wahl, in partnership with Meadowlark and Le Batard and Friends. Landon, Chris, thanks so much for joining me.
Chris Wittyngham:
Thanks, Grant.
Landon Donovan:
Thank you. Looking forward to Sunday.
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