DOHA, Qatar — It was an absolute pleasure to meet up again a few days ago with Catarina Macario, the USWNT and Lyon star who has been in Doha for the past two months rehabbing after an ACL injury in June. She had a breakout season in 2021-22, winning the Champions League and French league titles with Lyon and finishing No. 9 in the Ballon d’Or voting. We caught up just before the USA-Netherlands game on Saturday at the World Cup.

The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast when it publishes Thursday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

Grant Wahl:

Big thanks to Adidas for helping set up today's interview. We've got a good one today. Our guest is with me here in Doha, and she has been rehabbing here for a little while now. Catarina Macario is working her way back to the U.S. women's national team and her club Lyon after suffering an ACL injury in June. She's also attending some of the World Cup games, and we're recording this on Saturday, just a couple hours before the U.S.A-Netherlands game. Cat, it is great to see you again. Thanks for coming on the show.

Catarina Macario:

Thanks, Grant. Thanks for having me.

Grant Wahl:

First question, how are you?

Catarina Macario:

I'm doing well. Yeah. Thank you. Just rehabbing away, so yeah, just hoping to get back on the field as soon as possible.

Grant Wahl:

And what led to you coming to Doha for your rehab, and how much time have you spent here?

Catarina Macario:

I've been here for about two months now, and I'm here because I'm doing rehabilitation at Aspetar, which is one of the best rehab centers in the world, actually. And I just wanted to be treated by the best. And I have my goals of going to the World Cup. And just want to make sure that I'm a hundred percent. And so I just figured that here would be the best place to get back to the best version of myself.

Grant Wahl:

I mean, the facilities here are incredible. I've taken a tour of them before, so I totally understand why you're here doing this. How many World Cup games have you attended? What's it been like?

Catarina Macario:

That's a good question. Thankfully, Adidas has been very kind to me since they know that I was already here. So I've just been going to about one game per day or so. I've never been to a World Cup before, and this was a very once in a lifetime opportunity, obviously, because I'm supposed to be playing instead of being injured and being here. But it just happened that the World Cup was here, so we're able to make it happen.

Grant Wahl:

How many U.S. games? How many Brazil games?

Catarina Macario:

All the U.S. games, and all the Brazil games except one.

Grant Wahl:

So, this time off from playing for the U.S. national team and Lyon. I know it's not what you wanted, but how have you tried to approach these last six months?

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Catarina Macario:

It’s been five months since my surgery actually. But like you said, it's definitely not what I wanted. But things happen. Injuries are part of football, and I'm just kind of taking it one day at a time and just knowing that this would make me a better player and this would make me a better person. And I feel like injuries really help you almost get grounded in a way. And just knowing that's like, okay, I'm not just a football player, and I have way more to life than just football. And so it's been very eye-opening, actually, and I honestly wouldn't have it any other way.

Grant Wahl:

Are there any human things that you're doing during this period that maybe you weren't doing as much of before?

Catarina Macario:

I've honestly never been really able to travel, and this has been a really cool period just to do that, a few weekends here and there, just because when you're playing, even if you have one or two days off, you have to think about the next week and recovery and things like that. But this time, I was like, you know what? I'm going to treat myself, and I'm going to go on a trip. I've been able to spend more time with my dad, which has been cool. Just reading more books and just really practicing more mindfulness. And it's been really cool, yeah, just getting more in touch with myself, and obviously connecting more with my friends, which sometimes I don't necessarily get the opportunity to. And just getting to know the world a little bit better.

Grant Wahl:

That's really interesting. That's cool. Thanks for sharing. When are you hoping to be back on the field?

Catarina Macario:

That's a good question. I would love to be back around March. Yeah, we'll see. March, April. Obviously, it depends. There's no set timeline. Sometimes, unfortunately with injuries, you have some good days, you have some off days, good weeks, off weeks, so it just kind of depends. And again, I'm thankful that I'm here at the best place in the world, and so I know that I'm in good hands. I'm itching to be back with a team again, but I just want to do it as safely as possible, so taking my time.

Grant Wahl:

It makes sense. The U.S. women's team, they won their last game. They've had an extremely rare, epically rare three-game losing streak recently against top European teams, England, Spain, Germany. What was it like for you watching those games?

Catarina Macario:

I mean, it was I think kind of what every fan was feeling. I was like, whoa, what's going on? But I feel like the one thing that you get with the U.S. is that they have a crazy mentality, and they'll always bounce back. And I was so thankful to be able to see that in the fourth match. I think the team lacks experience right now. Obviously we have a lot of young players. And first and foremost, I wish that I was there to be getting that experience and obviously be with the team and help them as much as I can. 

But also, I think it's a good thing. It's a good wake-up call. It's a good experience to have, and it's better to happen now than later. And so you have to make the adjustments and just get back to the winning ways and the standard that the U.S. team has. And sometimes that takes a couple losses, but after all, I think this will set us up in a good path for 2023.

Grant Wahl:

The first U.S. game at the Women's World Cup is July 22. Not that many months away, actually.

Catarina Macario:

I know, yeah.

Grant Wahl:

Seven months from now. Are you still hoping to make a big impact with the U.S. at the World Cup?

Catarina Macario:

Yeah, of course. I mean, I think not just individually but collectively. You'd say, of course we want to win again. Not just that, but we want to win and play well. And whether it be against Vietnam, Netherlands, whatever, just the whole tournament, it's a great opportunity to show who we are, not only individually but also collectively. And I think it's been really cool just to see the different nations stepping up in their investments, just stepping up in how they're growing the women's game, and it's been really cool and exciting to be a part of. So I'm super excited for Australia and New Zealand.

Grant Wahl:

I mean, when you go to these U.S. games and you feel the tension in the stands, does it make you think about what it might be like to experience? Obviously you wouldn't be a fan at the women's World Cup, you would be on the field.

Catarina Macario:

No, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. Honestly, there are times when I hear the anthem and I almost feel like crying, just because I get a little bit emotional. It's the fact that you get to represent your country on such a big stage, and that's so special. And so it's going to be different for sure walking onto the field hopefully in 2023, but it's something that I've been looking forward to my whole life. And I hope to do it whenever I'm feeling at my best possible self.

Grant Wahl:

What sort of conversations have you had with the U.S. coach, Vlatko Andonovski?

Catarina Macario:

He's here actually.

Grant Wahl:

I'll track him down. I didn't know that.

Catarina Macario:

Yeah. Yeah, he's here. He's doing some scouting to help with the men's team, obviously.

Grant Wahl:

Oh, okay.

Catarina Macario:

But we just catch up here and there, obviously keeping him updated on my injuries and whatnot. But yeah, kind of just talking. We talked a little bit about the games and things like that, the games that the U.S. has had recently. He's just a great guy, honestly. Overall, we just talk kind of human to human, and he makes you feel comfortable, which is something that you don't find in every coach, honestly, and it's something that I really appreciate, just because he trusts you. No matter what, he tries to get the best out of his players. It's been good to see him here. And obviously we're supporting the U.S. and hoping that they go as far as possible, but also in the back of our minds, we both know, okay, we enjoy watching football, but also we have work to do for 2023.

Grant Wahl:

We have seen superstars in the women's game have ACL injuries in the last year. It's an experience I can only imagine, but you, Alexia Putellas, Beth Mead recently with England. Do you ever wonder what's going on with that, why it's happening?

Catarina Macario:

Yeah. I mean, I'm no scientific expert or anything like that, but I think first of all women are already more predisposed to having ACL injuries. I think something with the hips or whatnot. Again, I'm not an expert.

Grant Wahl:

No, I understand. I put you in a tough spot.

Catarina Macario:

And also we have periods and things like that, just different things that can increase your rate of injury, your likelihood to get injured. And I just think that there's a big, big lack of research right now in the women's field, just really focusing on women's players. And everything that's done is generally concentrated on males. And it's like, okay, but we're completely different people. And so I think now that we're playing more intense games, obviously the demand is higher, and I think that maybe the research has not followed. And same with the medical field. I don't think that some clubs are necessarily doing everything that they can to help with the prevention side of injuries and whatnot. And unfortunately, we are seeing this a lot right now. It's just really unfortunate, but I hope that we'll come to a day that's like, we'll put this behind us.

Grant Wahl:

I hope sports science hears this and makes some progress-

Catarina Macario:

I hope so too. Yeah. Yeah.

Grant Wahl:

... on this, because I think it's important for the growth of women’s sports.

Catarina Macario:

For sure.

Grant Wahl:

And until your injury happened in June, it had been really a dream season for you with Lyon. You took back the Champions League title from Barcelona, the league title from PSG. You personally were number nine and the highest American in the voting for the Ballon d'Or Award. It's funny because the story I wrote about you in January, we had an artist do a picture of you at the start of it, and we had in the artwork holding up a shirt that said, "Ballon d'Or ‘24?" And it made me think we were too conservative in saying ‘24. Congratulations on that.

Catarina Macario:

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Grant Wahl:

When you look back on that season, how would you describe it?

Catarina Macario:

Yeah, I mean, it was a tremendous, tremendous season. It kind of went by in a blink of an eye, I’m not going to lie. Obviously, it was like my first professional season, my first full season, and I'm just so glad that we were able to just get the Champions League and get back the trophy as well. And obviously individually, it wasn't bad. So I am very, very thrilled just, because in the beginning, it was definitely tough making the transition to professional football. 

So I'm very happy. Obviously at the end I had my injury, but it was a tremendous year. I wouldn't change anything about it. And I just hope that this is only the beginning that will keep getting better and better. And obviously I have my eye set for the World Cup.

Grant Wahl:

We are only 28 days away from New Year's Eve parties. It's weird to be at a World Cup in December. I'm wrapping my mind around it still.

Catarina Macario:

I know. It doesn’t even feel like December.

Grant Wahl:

That's a time when people think about the year ahead. What will you be thinking about when the clock hits midnight on New Year's Eve?

Catarina Macario:

Well, I will be thinking about just getting as healthy as possible as quick as possible, but as safe as possible, and just doing absolutely everything I can in order to help the United States win another World Cup.

Grant Wahl:

Catarina Macario is hard at work to get back on the field for the U.S. women's national team and Lyon. Cat, thanks for coming on the show.

Catarina Macario:

Yeah. Thank you. Always a pleasure, Grant.

It’s one of the great moments in NWSL history. Crystal Dunn, who had given birth to her son, Marcel, just five months ago, scored the game-winner for Portland in the 93rd minute of Sunday’s playoff semifinal to beat San Diego, and it instantly went into the annals of the league finest hours.

I spoke to Dunn about that goal, her journey back from giving birth and a lot of other topics on Tuesday ahead of Saturday’s NWSL final between Portland and Kansas City. And, as is always the case when I interview her, she was inspiring to listen to.

The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast tomorrow on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

Grant Wahl:

The NWSL final between Portland and Kansas City is this Saturday on big CBS at 8 PM Eastern. And our guest now is Portland's Crystal Dunn, who scored a huge late game-winner in the semifinal. Crystal, congratulations on all of that. Thanks for coming on the show.

Crystal Dunn:

Hey Grant, thank you so much for having me.

Grant Wahl:

I know you're so busy, so thank you for doing this the week of the final here. But I’ve got to ask you about this goal, because it's one of the coolest moments in league history, and I'm wondering where does that goal rank among the goals that you've scored in your career? Top one, top three or something else?

Crystal Dunn:

Oh, obviously, maybe because it's fresh on my mind, it has to be number one. It has to be number one because given how this year's been, just coming back from pregnancy leave and just fighting my way back onto the field and not really knowing what the rest of this year was going to look like, I think that goal just really summed up the year that I've had. Just sheer perseverance and the will to kind of fight my way back onto the field.

“Would I love to play midfield for the U.S. women’s national team? Yes, but we obviously have a lot of very, very skilled midfielders. So I just think at this stage, I’m 30 years old now, I’ve kind of just settled with the idea that I will probably be an outside back for the women’s national team moving forward. And I’ve grown to just make that position my own and to play it to my most authentic self.” — Crystal Dunn

Grant Wahl:

On May 20 this year, just five months ago, you gave birth to your son, Marcel. Now you're scoring the goal of the season in the NWSL. How would you describe that journey over the past five months?

Crystal Dunn:

Honestly, everyone who's known me from the beginning of this journey knew that my thought was always to get back on the field. I'd never wanted to just be like, "Oh, I'm having a baby. Okay, let me take two years off." It was always about giving birth to a happy, healthy baby, and then getting my way back into the joy of soccer again and getting back on the field.

I trained up until I was nine months pregnant. I think that that really helped me feel connected to my teammates. I wanted to be around them. It was really important for me to not just announce my pregnancy and be like, "Okay, bye guys. I'll see you when I want to see you." I was there during preseason, I was there during the season. I was at a lot of the games, and I think, for me, after I was ready to step outside the house after becoming a mom, I was ready.

I was ready to be back on the field, and I was ready to do whatever I could to give my team the support that they needed, whether that was just being a training player, whether that was just being on the field and being a voice. And then I think that role turned into now I'm in passing patterns, now I'm a neutral on the team, now I'm actually able to be in contact on the field.

I never really knew where I would be at the end of this year, but what I did know is that I was going to do whatever it took for me to get back onto the field in some capacity.

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Grant Wahl:

So where are you right now in terms of how many minutes you think you could play in a game? Because I know you haven't been starting games yet. What do you think you would be capable of?

Crystal Dunn:

The thought of a 90-minute game sounds crazy to me right now, but as far as fitness-wise, I think I feel pretty fit. I think it's definitely tactical-based on what the team needs. I think stepping onto the field for the first time against Orlando was just getting the nerves out of playing soccer again. And then from there, I've gradually increased my minute load. But I would say now I could definitely push for 60. I think if everyone fell off the face of the earth and I needed to play 90 minutes, could I will my way to do that? Of course.

But I think what was also something to navigate this year was knowing that I'm coming back playing after the team had already had a whole season under their belt. I didn't want to be the player that just comes back and says, "Hey, I deserve to start because of who I am and what I've done in the past." It was really important for me to be, whatever my role is for the team, it has to make sense. It has to be what's best for the team. Along the way, obviously for me it's always about gaining more confidence, gaining more minutes, but it didn't necessarily make sense for me to just come back and start. That's crazy.

Grant Wahl:

What kind of game are you expecting in this final, because Kansas City has been out-possessed, I checked, in each of its last five games, so they don't usually have the majority of possession, but they’ve found ways to score on the counter, as OL Reign obviously found out. Is that what you're thinking you'll see from them this weekend?

Crystal Dunn:

Yeah, honestly, this week is so wild and crazy. I think every team has a style of play. I think it's actually known that a lot of teams that don't have a lot of possession are pretty lethal on transition and they don't need a lot of the ball in order to make things happen. So I think them not having the ball, they're pretty confident in maybe not having the highest percentage out of both teams. I think that's something that we'll obviously always take note of and be aware of. But for us, we like to keep the ball, we like to possess the ball, but that does not mean that we are only this possession-based team. We have obviously very good front-runners who could be very efficient in transition.

So I think the final is going to be kind of like a chess match where the first 15, 20 minutes are probably always going to be about feeling the opposition out and seeing what they're giving and where you can maybe expose them. But I think they're going to be a very organized team, they're a hardworking team, and I think it's just going to be about what team shows up that day and is willing to kind of outwork and out-mastermind the other.

Grant Wahl:

This game's on big CBS in prime time, which was not the original schedule, they actually altered it so this would be the case. As a player, how do you feel about something like that happening?

Crystal Dunn:

First and foremost, that's incredible. I think the women's game has grown so much from even my first years in this league, and I think that's where we want the women's game to be. We want that to be the standard. What we've seen this last weekend of fans showing up and 20-plus thousand people are in these stands cheering these teams on. I think that is really where we want the women's game to be on a consistent level. We're happy that for playoffs obviously that was the case, but throughout the year, how incredible would that be that 20,000 people are showing up each week?

So I think the game has grown. It's only going to continue growing more and more. And I think us being on prime time is exactly where we've all envisioned this game to be. It obviously took 10 years for this, but better late than never. But I think that us having this final at this time means that that should be the standard. We shouldn't be saying, "Oh, this is the first time we did it and we're happy we did it one time." This should be what it is every single year for every single final.

Grant Wahl:

The last time I saw you in person was in London recently, and you spoke thoughtfully on the Yates Report and what it showed, revealed about abuse in the sport. Obviously the Thorns are a significant part of that report. How have you and your teammates approached all of that at a time when you're trying to win the biggest games of the season?

Crystal Dunn:

It has been a long year for my organization, obviously. But just across the NWSL, I think each team is trying to heal, but also trying to find joy in playing this game again. I think, for my team specifically, a big part of this year was trying to just get back into enjoying the game. I think a lot of issues off the field, on the field, take that away at times.

And I think a big part of us going into the season was about one, playing for each other, playing for our community, who also shares in the experiences that are going on. And I think it was about taking it day by day as well, because I think some weeks feel easier than others. You go a couple weeks where you're like, "Ah, I feel great, I'm buzzing, my team is buzzing." And then you get hit with moments where you're like, "Oh my gosh, everything is so heavy around us. How can we possibly focus on playing soccer when there's so many things going on and bigger issues than this game?"

But I think over the last couple weeks we just realized we're here to play this game for ourselves, for each other, for the community. The game on Sunday really showed that there are fans that were like, "We don't want to show up, we don't want to support the organization." But seeing many people show up really helped us play that game and show up and really try to put out the best performance possible because that's really why we play this game: for the fans, for the community, for ourselves, for each other.

I think that's how we've been able to get through, is just knowing that it's a blessing that we play a team sport where you don't always have to be the strongest person that day. Someone else can kind of share that load with you, and it's okay to only give 100% of the 20% you may have that day. And there's been days like that, that I feel like I'm this energizer person that comes in every day and there's days where I was like, "I'm tired guys, I really am just going through it and I need a moment."

That's the good thing about a team sport is you don't have to be alone. You don't have to feel like you are the only one that can contribute on that day.

Grant Wahl:

Couple more questions with Crystal Dunn. Really appreciate the time. Now when we see you score a goal like you did last week, and we're reminded, maybe, that you're a former Golden Boot winner in this league, and I can't help but wonder if you should be playing higher up the field for the U.S. women's national team than as a left back. What do you think?

Crystal Dunn:

Oh, Grant, this question. Why? (laughs) It's no secret that I consider myself a more attacking player, and that's not to say that I'm the world's best goal scorer or the world's best assister, it's just more so to say I feel like I'm at my best when I'm further up the pitch. I like to connect with people, I like to be creative, but be creative in a way that's not selfish, but to create for other people to have their moment as well. And I think that's really the joy that I've always felt in the midfield is one, you get to defend as if you're a defender. You get to help stop plays, but you also get to win the ball and face forward and be like, "All right, now I'm actually expected to help get this ball in the back of the net."

So when people ask this question, I think there's a really big reason why I love club soccer, because I've never really been asked to play outside back in club. I've only played outside back my rookie season in 2014, and since then I've always been a midfielder.

So would I love to play midfield for the U.S. women’s national team? Yes, but we obviously have a lot of very, very skilled midfielders. So I just think at this stage, I'm 30 years old now, I've kind of just settled with the idea that I will probably be an outside back for the women's national team moving forward. And I've grown to just make that position my own and to play it to my most authentic self. I'm not just only a true defender. For me, getting involved in the attack is something I've really enjoyed and embraced as an outside back. So, yeah, a girl can dream, obviously, and be this midfielder for the national team, but I think scoring goals in club has given me the fill that I need.

Grant Wahl:

You have a future in international diplomacy after your playing days based on that response, if you want that. So thank you, Crystal, for being up front about it. We did just have the World Cup draw this last weekend. The U.S. just had two rare defeats in friendlies against England and Spain. And what areas do you think the U.S. needs to get better in time for the World Cup?

Crystal Dunn:

Great question. Those two games were a big test for us, and I think I've played this game long enough to know that with games that you lose you learn a lot about yourself, and it's a huge lesson that we all learned. I think our performances weren't good enough. I think we all know that. No one walked off the field saying, "Wow, we're surprised we didn't win that game."

For us, we created some chances in both, but the reality was our performances weren't up to the standard that we are normally used to playing at. Luckily, the World Cup isn't tomorrow. The great thing is that we have some time, but I think just developing our style of play more, connecting a bit more with each other is going to be a huge positive moving forward.

I think there was just some off passes that we just didn't connect, and you can't really expect to win games if you're not connecting passes. But I think moving forward, just deepening our roster, just making sure that everyone's on the same page and just continuing to believe in the process. Those that have been a part of the journey know that we usually do unfortunately lose to a top-ranked team leading into a major tournament, and we go on and are very successful in those tournaments. So I’m not saying that this is necessarily the case, hopefully it is, but again, you learn a lot through losing. You learn a lot through failure. For us, we look at those games as that just wasn't us, and we need to now correct things that we know that we can control and just hope that we can be better moving forward.

Grant Wahl:

Lastly, I had Sophia Smith, your Portland Thorns and U.S. national team teammate on the podcast not too long ago, and had a really good conversation with her. I wanted to get your take. What do you like about the way Sophia Smith plays, and what do you think about how good she could become?

Crystal Dunn:

Oh, Sophia Smith? I love her. She's my little sister, I always say every day. One, I'm so honored to be her teammate. I think she is somebody who you want on your side. She is a hassle to play against, I will say. She is not easy to mark. She has such great change of direction. She's strong. She is somebody who I'm like, "Thank goodness she's on my team."

Her being so young just is scary, because she is already so good, and I know that she's going to continuously grow her game, and she's not complacent. She wants to get better. She wants to learn and grow, and what I love most about her game is how she can kind of make anything out of nothing. There'll be three players around her, and I'm like, "All right, well let's just prepare for the defensive transition." And like, "Boom." She takes those three players on in scores. And I'm like, "Okay, don't know how that happened, but that's incredible."

So I think her ability to shift the ball, draw defenders and still find ways and pockets to maneuver and get out of tight spaces is actually incredible, and it's very unique. It's not something you see a lot. One player versus three players, you're instantly thinking they're going to lose that ball. There's no way they can contain that ball and keep it. But she just finds ways to create goals. She's feisty, she works hard. She's not this forward that just wants to kind of get on the ball and when they lose it, they just stop and they put their hands in the air. She's somebody who is our first defender. We're like, "You control our defense. You're the first line of defense." So for her to be a goal scorer but also want to do the work defensively is an extra bonus to her qualities.

Grant Wahl:

Portland's Crystal Dunn will meet the Kansas City Current in the NWSL final this Saturday on big CBS at 8 PM Eastern. Crystal, thanks for coming on the show.

Crystal Dunn:

Thanks so much, Grant.

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At the World Cup 2023 draw in Auckland, New Zealand, on Saturday, the U.S. drew Vietnam (July 22 in Auckland), the Netherlands (July 27 in Wellington) and the winner of an upcoming playoff (Portugal, Cameroon or Thailand; August 1 in Auckland) in Group E. Here are my three thoughts on the draw:

• There are plenty of reminders of recent tournaments for the U.S. here. USA-Netherlands is a rematch of the 2019 World Cup final (won by the U.S.) and the 2021 Olympic quarterfinals (also won by the U.S.). Both teams will be heavy favorites to be the two to advance from the group, though the Netherlands will have a relatively new coach in Andries Jonker (who has replaced Mark Parsons). Opening with Vietnam, a first-time World Cup team from Asia, has several similar characteristics to opening against Thailand in that infamous 13-0 game from 2019. And look, there are the Thais again as a possibility from the playoff (though Portugal will be the favorite). If the U.S. advances from its group, its Round of 16 opponent would come from Group G (Sweden, Italy, South Africa and Argentina) and take place in Australia (Sydney or Melbourne).

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• In most groups, there are two clear favorites on paper to advance. The women’s World Cup is a 32-team tournament for the first time, which is a good thing overall with more countries getting opportunities and thus the chance to grow the women’s game globally. But there will be more mismatches in the group stage and likely a significant gap between the top two teams in most groups and the rest. That would include Group B (Australia and Canada), Group C (Spain and Japan), Group E (USA and the Netherlands), Group F (France and Brazil) and Group G (Sweden and Italy). However, that’s not the case in other groups like Group A (New Zealand, Norway and Switzerland), Group D (England, Denmark and China) and Group H (Germany, South Korea, Colombia and Morocco).

• There are nine teams capable of winning this World Cup. For me, those are USA, Australia, Canada, Spain, England, the Netherlands, France, Sweden and Germany. (I’m not including Japan, Brazil or Norway.) Australia wouldn’t be on that list if it wasn’t hosting the tournament. But nine is a reflection of how much the women’s game has gotten better in more countries, as well as the growth in Europe in particular. Spain, the Netherlands and France have significant coaching issues that may put their campaigns in peril, but what are likely to be unsurprising group stages will be rewarded with knockout rounds that should have some phenomenal matchups. I’m fired up to be in Australia and New Zealand for this tournament next year.

What are your thoughts on the draw? You can join the discussion in the comments below.

The U.S. women’s national team lost to Spain 2-0 on Tuesday in Pamplona, Spain. It marks the first two-game losing streak for the USWNT since 2017. Here are my three thoughts on the game:

• The U.S. midfield is a huge concern and needs a formation change now. You can say all you want about the missing U.S. players from this game, but if we’re being honest 2015-era Julie Ertz and Sam Mewis aren’t walking through that door ever again, and Vlatko Andonovski needs to change his midfield set-up ASAP. Specifically: He has to go to a double-pivot, at least against top competition, because a single D-mid in Andi Sullivan just isn’t going to work. No single D-mid can do what Ertz used to do, including Ertz herself. The U.S. needs to switch to a 4-2-3-1 and use the added stability to help create the conditions for Rose Lavelle to do what she does best as a No. 10 in a central role. Right now the U.S. midfield isn’t controlling possession and isn’t creating the chances for whomever is on the front line to score goals. Spain’s B-team midfield outplayed the U.S., which can’t rely on forcing turnovers as the only way to create scoring chances. It’s that simple. Time for a change now.

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• There is time for the U.S. to right the ship, but not much. Several players missing from these losses to Spain and England should be back in the picture as we get closer to the World Cup, including Catarina Macario, Mal Pugh, Alex Morgan, Tierna Davidson and perhaps Kelley O’Hara, Emily Sonnett and Midge Purce. And it’s unlikely that future U.S. games will have the debilitating emotional context that surrounded the team over the past week in the wake of the Yates Report release. I’m glad the U.S. scheduled two away games in Europe against difficult opponents—although a Spain team missing 15 striking players was obviously far from full strength—in part because it shows us exactly how much the U.S. needs to improve in the coming months. Playing Germany twice in November will help as well. But the vibe around the USWNT right now feels a lot like it did during the disappointing Olympics run, and recognizing that is necessary if things are going to get better.

• This result won’t help the cause of progress with the Spanish team. Beating the World Cup champion 2-0 (after tying Sweden 1-1) without the 15 prominent players who refuse to play for Jorge Vilda will only give Vilda and the Spanish federation more ammo in their refusal to listen to the concerns of those players. Obviously, there’s a giant problem there, and the Spanish federation’s strategy of infantilizing the players and refusing to meet with them is of a piece with the unwillingness to engage serious matters that we saw from American soccer officials in the Yates Report. This has to stop. Spain got a good result today, but it’s remarkable to me how much turmoil several European World Cup contenders are in just a few months before the tournament, whether it’s Spain, France (which has somehow retained coach Corinne Diacre), the Netherlands (which just fired coach Mark Parsons) or Norway (which replaced its coach after the Euros). That may be a saving grace for this U.S. team: things aren’t quite as bad for the Americans as they are for several other contenders.

What are your thoughts on the game? You can join the discussion in the comments below.

LONDON — Decked out in a light brown New York Yankees cap and wearing a smirk that would have made her father, Dennis, proud, Trinity Rodman didn’t worm out of answering my question: I thought you had a good goal. Did you?

In real time it looked glorious: a sweeping finish at speed from the 20-year-old Rodman, a budding star, after a piercing run by Sophia Smith and a backheel—or was it a dummy?—from Megan Rapinoe that appeared to bring the World Cup champion U.S. to a 2-2 tie with European champion England and silence a sold-out Wembley Stadium in their heavyweight friendly on Friday.

“Yeah,” Rodman told me, adding that she had gone “straight to the phone” after the game to see the replay. “I thought it was a great goal and a great buildup. I mean, the whole team was involved in transition. It’s obviously unfortunate, just because you look back at it and we still don’t believe it’s offside. It was extremely close.”

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Or as Rapinoe put it: “Not sure that second goal was offside, and the pictures look a little sus.”

If this had been, say, next year’s World Cup final, there would have been a massive postgame debate consuming even Skip Bayless’s show about the use of telemetry cameras in VAR offside calls to nullify the kind of thrilling goals that are the hardest thing to create in this sport—all because of what may have been a two-inch offside that’s unseeable to the naked eye. Even England, which has deployed VAR worse than any other major soccer country, has pulled back from hairline VAR offside calls in the Premier League this season, and nobody has complained a bit. 

For what it’s worth, if this game had taken place in the U.S., where we’ve been too cheap to install VAR telemetry cameras and the fans don’t want them anyway, Rodman’s goal would have stood and the match would have been deadlocked at 2-2 in a frenetic first half that also included an Alana Cook misplay that led to England’s opener, a pinpoint equalizer from deputized center-forward Smith and a Georgia Stanway spot kick after Hailie Mace’s penalty (thanks again, VAR). 

But truth be told, there wasn’t much indignation from the U.S. side after the 2-1 loss—the team’s first since the 2021 Olympic semifinal defeat to Canada—in part because it was a friendly, and in part because of the context surrounding the game, both in the days leading up to it and in the final unifying moments before kickoff.

So often over the years, the players of the USWNT have had to shoulder the burden of speaking about heavy and complex off-the-field topics—player abuse, equal pay, sexist U.S. Soccer legal strategies, the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade—at the same time they have been playing the most high-profile games of their careers. 

Who can forget Rapinoe’s tour de force a press conference the day before the U.S.’s 2019 World Cup quarterfinal against France? Not only did she speak on the team’s equal-pay fight (which it eventually won) and respond to bullying criticism from President Trump, which she did with aplomb, but she also went out the next day and scored two goals as the U.S. blew the doors off the tournament’s host. In equal measure, Rapinoe won the debate and pointed to the scoreboard. It has become the USWNT way.

After the release on Monday of the independent investigation into systemic abuse in the NWSL by former Deputy Attorney General Sally Q. Yates (which everyone should read, being aware that the contents are truly awful), the women of the USWNT once again rose to the occasion with their words—not just Rapinoe but also her teammates, including Cook, Becky Sauerbrunn, Crystal Dunn and Lindsey Horan. 

Sauerbrunn, the 15-year national team veteran, set the tone by speaking first among the players on Tuesday, beginning with an appreciation for the victims who shared their stories with Yates and continuing with her thoughts on the players inside the national team. “The players are not doing well,” Sauerbrunn said. “We are horrified and heartbroken and frustrated and exhausted and really, really angry. We are angry that it took a third-party investigation. We are angry that it took an article in The Athletic and The Washington Post and numerous others. We’re angry that it took over 200 people sharing their trauma to get to this point right now. And we’re angry that it took Mana [Shim] and Sinead [Farrelly] and Erin [Simon] and Kaiya [McCullough] and Alex [Morgan] and Christen [Press] and Sam [Johnson] to repeatedly ask people in authority to take their abuse and their concerns seriously.

“And I think for so long, this has always fallen on the players to demand change,” Sauerbrunn continued. “And that is because the people in authority and decision-making positions have repeatedly failed to protect us, and they have failed to hold themselves and each other accountable. What and who are you actually protecting? And what values are you upholding? You have failed in your stewardship. And it’s my opinion that every owner and executive and U.S. Soccer official who has repeatedly failed the players and failed to protect the players, who have hidden behind legalities, and have not participated fully in these investigations, should be gone.”

Rapinoe, too, called for the ouster of NWSL owners Merritt Paulson of the Portland Thorns and Arnim Whisler of the Chicago Red Stars, whom the report confirmed had enabled their abusive former coaches Paul Riley and Rory Dames. Paulson removed himself from Thorns-related decisions this week, while Whisler was voted off the Red Stars board, but both remained as owners of their teams. 

“I don’t think that Merritt Paulson is fit to be the owner of that team,” Rapinoe said on Thursday. “I don’t think Arnim is fit to be the owner of Chicago. We need to see those people gone so people who are fit and who will take care of the game and respect the game and help the game grow the best way possible can replace them.”

A separate joint investigation report by the NWSL and NWSLPA is expected in the coming months that will likely bring to light additional information about systemic abuse, and there are lingering questions from the Yates Report about enabling behaviors by U.S. Soccer officials, including former USWNT coach Jill Ellis, former president Sunil Gulati and former CEO Dan Flynn.

In the days before Friday’s game, the U.S. and England players discussed how they might unify to make a statement at Wembley. Their decision: to wear teal armbands in solidarity with sexual violence survivors and stand together at midfield behind a banner reading PROTECT THE PLAYERS.

As Sauerbrunn put it, “It was really us talking with the FA and seeing what they were willing to do, and they were absolutely great. The Lionesses in the interviews that they’ve given saying they’re in full solidarity with us means a lot. We know that it’s not just a women’s soccer in America thing. Women are being abused everywhere.”

“Both teams coming together was amazing,” Rapinoe said. “Without the players, you don’t have anything. You don’t have a game. You don’t have a sport at all. So if we’re not protected in the right ways, then nothing else really matters. So for us to come together and take a moment on a night like this I think is really important and powerful.”

Even though the U.S. has won the last two World Cups, it’s obvious that the team has work to do on the field in the months before next year’s tournament in Australia and New Zealand. The midfield isn’t performing like it was during the heydays of Julie Ertz and Sam Mewis, and there needs to be more strength and solidity next to Andi Sullivan, perhaps in a double pivot. England bossed the midfield on Friday, not least because Keira Walsh continued the dominant controlling play she showed during the Euros.

Despite being 22, Naomi Girma looks more and more like a lock to start in the U.S. central defense, but the role of her partner could be played by any of Cook, Sauerbrunn or Tierna Davidson. Looming over everything in the attack is the eventual return from ACL surgery of Catarina Macario and how that will impact the front line—perhaps moving Alex Morgan (who is also sidelined right now with an injury) to the bench with Smith and Mal Pugh playing out wide and Rapinoe in a supersub role that fits her better at this stage of her national team career. 

These are all soccer topics, and important ones. But you can also be sure that the USWNT players will continue speaking up in the coming days and weeks about weighty off-the-field matters. Tuesday’s friendly at Spain will bring support from the U.S. for a Spanish team missing 15 of its top players, who are refusing to play for national team coach Jorge Vilda, citing his overly-controlling actions and lack of tactical acumen. The Spanish federation has dug in its heels and refused to engage with the 15 players, continuing the theme of officials in power throwing up their hands at genuine player concerns.

When the next abuse report from the NWSL/NWSLPA comes out, the USWNT players will speak out then as well. But maybe in 2023 things will finally start to change a bit. At a Future of Women’s Football event at the Soho Hotel here on Friday morning, USWNT players union executive director Becca Roux was asked what she’s hoping for in the year ahead.

Her response: “Maybe 2023 I’ll say is the year they get to just be footballers.”

Imagine that. It’s something they have earned.

LONDON — The U.S. women’s national team lost to England 2-1 on Friday at Wembley Stadium in a match that felt from the start like a big-time occasion. It was the U.S.’s first defeat since the 1-0 Olympic semifinal loss to Canada. Here are my three thoughts on the game:

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• These two teams are my favorites to win next year’s World Cup, and that didn’t change watching this game. Look, it was a friendly, and both teams were missing some important players (Alex Morgan, Catarina Macario and Mal Pugh for the U.S., and Leah Williamson and Alessia Russo for England). But both teams came to play, and the U.S. was hard done to have VAR rule out Trinity Rodman’s first-half goal that would have made the score 2-2 when it didn’t appear to be offside. (By the way, would VAR have even been used if this friendly had happened in the U.S.? I doubt it.) For anyone who saw this summer’s Euros and the CONCACAF championship, though, this U.S. performance (while not perfect) was a rejoinder to anyone saying that some sort of significant gap has grown between the two teams this year. The U.S. came into a hostile, loud environment and flipped that switch the Americans have flipped over the years to engage. England and the U.S. were taking each other’s measure in this game, with far more important games to come, but this one will whet the appetite for those potential showdowns in 2023.

• Naomi Girma and Alana Cook got a test at centerback, and Girma passed with flying colors (again). Girma, the 22-year-old San Diego Wave rookie, barely put a foot wrong against the attack-strong European champions, and after her terrific performances in the NWSL and in the CONCACAF championship she looks like a U.S. starter for the next decade. It’s even more clear watching in the stadium that Girma is whipsmart in her positioning and smooth in her passing out of the back, and on the rare occasions when she needed to tap into her recovery speed she did so with ease. For her part, Cook, the 25-year-old OL Reign defender, was at fault on England’s first goal when she misplayed Beth Mead’s cross into the box, allowing Lauren Hemp to pounce. Cook also nearly gave away a goal on a turnover early in the second half. I still think Becky Sauerbrunn, the 37-year-old Portland Thorns veteran, shouldn’t be out of the mix for a starting spot at the World Cup.

• I’m getting used to being in big crowds for women’s games. This was my second sold-out women’s game at Wembley in two months after being here for the Euro final on July 31, and it’s clear that England fans have fallen in love with their Lionesses and the importance of this occasion. A culture change has happened this year in England, and there’s no way it’s turning back now. Walking down a packed Wembley Way to the stadium was a tremendously fun experience; the FA had posted banners for each of their European champion players, and as opposed to the men’s Euro final here in 2021, you knew there wouldn’t be any arrests of belligerent fans causing mayhem. This year has been huge for crowds globally in women’s soccer, from the 90,000-plus outpourings on two occasions for Barcelona to attendance records being set in Morocco, Colombia and other nations. The women’s game is going places in a lot of place now, and that momentum will only keep growing.

Through-balls: With Mal Pugh out, it made sense that Megan Rapinoe started, but you can see why she has become a 30-minute player for the USWNT this year … 17-year-old Alyssa Thompson made her debut, coming on for Rapinoe, and that’s a pretty cool moment to have for your debut … I love the little things Sophia Smith does, and she’s a menace in front of goal. Her star is only rising … I found myself asking where Rose Lavelle was for much of this game … Hailie Mace came in for an injured Emily Fox at left back and got a rude introduction, committing a penalty in the first half and struggling at times. I know Crystal Dunn is just coming back, but I was a bit surprised she didn’t come in instead of Mace. Dunn eventually came on midway through the second half … Man, Trinity Rodman has a great motor, including on defense … The England fans really don’t like Rapinoe. They booed her before every corner kick she took.

What are your thoughts on the game? You can join the discussion in the comments below.

LONDON — England hosts the USWNT in a sold-out Wembley Stadium on Friday. It’s the European champion against the World Cup champion, a showdown between the two favorites to win next year’s World Cup. One of the people watching most intently will be Casey Stoney, who played for England for 18 years before starting a coaching career that has included Manchester United and, as of this season, the NWSL’s San Diego Wave.

Stoney has some fascinating things to say below about the England-USWNT rivalry and how this past summer’s Euros has changed English culture. One of the things she said that stood out the most to me was her response to my question of why she wanted to make the move to coach in the NWSL:

“The biggest factor for me was that we were going to be a women's-only soccer team, not reliant on anyone else,” she told me. “And I've lived my entire career [in England], I would say, I call it living in the shadows, but it's not even living in the shadows. It's being almost fourth-, fifth-, sixth-best at times. So you can't use the gym because the under-15 [boy]s are in there, or you can't use that pitch because the under-12 boys are training on it. And you always felt like you had to fight for absolutely everything that you wanted on the basic needs for a team. And I felt that as a player, I felt that as a coach. And to come here [to San Diego] and have a team solely dedicated to its players, to be able to support, guide and give the players what they need to be able to perform, was the biggest reason I came.”

There’s a lot more good stuff below from our interview, which I hope you check out. The interview took place before the Yates Report was released on Monday.

The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is San Diego Wave head coach Casey Stoney, whose NWSL expansion team recently set an NWSL record for a crowded game with 32,000 people in a 1-0 win over Angel City. Casey, congratulations on everything you're doing, and thanks for coming on the show.

Casey Stoney:

Thank you. It's an absolute pleasure.

Grant Wahl:

What stands out to you the most about that record-breaking night?

Casey Stoney:

Well, I said it post-match in my press conference and I'm still probably coming to terms with it. I've been involved in the game a long time. I played for England for 18 years, played for many clubs, and I never even dared to dream that we'd have a night where we would walk out as a women's-only soccer team club and attract 32,000, all there to watch the team and get behind the team here in San Diego. So it was years and years and years of dreaming, but I didn't think it would be possible.

And I said it then, back in England we rely on the history of the men's clubs that we're attached to and their badges, so the Man Uniteds, the Arsenals, the Chelseas. To be able to do what this club has done in such a short space of time and attract 32,000 to the opening game at Snapdragon was absolutely incredible. And it just shows the thirst here for women's soccer, and what women's soccer can do, and the potential that it has. So I wasn't pleased with our performance but I was pleased with the win, and I was massively pleased with the evening itself and the way that the fans got behind the team.

“If I’m honest, I don’t think the U.S. have played a team that’s tested them in some time, and England will certainly test them. This England team has gone to another level now. What England haven’t faced is a frontline like America have got with the speed, the athleticism, the movement, the ability to score goals. But also, America haven’t faced England and how tactically good they are, and how they can score goals, and how they can open teams up. So I think it’s going to be a fascinating battle. And obviously a sold-out Wembley is going to be an incredible occasion.” — Casey Stoney

Grant Wahl:

Traditionally in American sports, not just soccer, expansion teams in their first season are not supposed to be very good. And your team has been good. How have you approached getting your team to play and win in this first season?

Casey Stoney:

Well, first of all, everybody told me that going into the regular season the expectations were low and that historically expansion teams hadn't done well. And I don't believe in that. I thought we set about getting a very good roster to start with. So I think as a club the general manager, Molly Downtain, has done a great job and obviously having Jill Ellis involved and her connections, I thought we managed to get a very good roster.

We still have a very young team. We have nine rookies in our squad, which is a lot. But I think if you set the right culture, the right standards, you get people to believe in what you're doing, your vision and where you want to go. And we're very lucky we've got an Alex Morgan that's in tremendous form as well and we've got an incredible goalkeeper and a fantastic roster. People can tell you all they want that you can't do well, but if you put the work in, you do the work every single day, which my players do and my staff do, anything is possible. But this league is so tight, it's absolutely crazy that you can be kind of near the top or at the top all season, two games to go and you could even fall out of the playoffs. It just shows how competitive it is.

Grant Wahl:

Well, that was going to be my next question. Everything is so tight at the top of the league right now. You've got six teams within four points of each other. Have you ever seen anything like this at the end of a league season?

Casey Stoney:

Never. And I speak to some of the coaches in the league as well, and it is just the most competitive, and that's obviously a massive selling point here is the parity part and how equal it is. And you look at the end of the season, you've worked so hard, and we've lost more games than I would've liked. I'd have liked us to be a little bit more comfortable where we are now, but I have to be patient with the fact that we're an expansion team, we're going to hit road bumps and we're going to have challenges. But to come to this point in the season and it be so tight, it's incredible for the fans and the neutrals. As a head coach, I'm not a fan of it because I'd rather be far more comfortable.

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Grant Wahl:

Here in the United States we decide the league champion with playoffs. How do you feel about that given your history, and what are the key areas for your team to be in top form for the playoffs?

Casey Stoney:

Obviously, it's very different for me. Normally you go for a season, and if you've won the most games you win the league. And it's different that you go for all of that and then you have to go again. But it's a huge part of the culture here, it's a huge part of the history here is the playoffs, and you want to go into it with some momentum. I think, obviously, we have to manage. We've got a tough away trip now against Orlando and then five days later we play North Carolina.

So we want to try and finish as high up the table as we can. I think that's important, as high up the standings. And then, we need to see what happens because we can't predict who we're going to get. Ideally, if we finish in the top two it would be great because then you obviously miss the quarterfinals and go straight to the semifinals. But having said that, we will face whatever comes our way, we'll plan accordingly based on the opposition that we get. And we know, pretty much now, we're capable of beating anybody on our day. If we can execute our game plan and get it right and the players execute, we're capable of winning any game.

Grant Wahl:

I want to take a bit of a step back and just ask why did you want to come to the NWSL? You had obviously coached Manchester United. This was a big move distance-wise and a different league.

Casey Stoney:

First thing, obviously, I was out of work having resigned at Manchester United. But when Jill phoned me about this opportunity, I think there were so many reasons to look deeper into it. One was the biggest factor for me, was that we were going to be a women's-only soccer team, not reliant on anyone else. And I've lived my entire career, I would say, I call it living in the shadows, but it's not even living in the shadows. It's being almost fourth, fifth, sixth best at times. So you can't use the gym because the under-15s are in there, or you can't use that pitch because the under-12 boys are training on it. And you always felt like you had to fight for absolutely everything that you wanted on the basic needs for a team. And I felt that as a player, I felt that as a coach. And to come here and have a team solely dedicated to its players, to be able to support, guide and give the players what they need to be able to perform, was the biggest reason I came.

I got to be really honest, Grant. I had to look up where San Diego was on the map because my geography of America was terrible and I realized it's right over the other side. It's an eight-hour time difference. And obviously, it was a life choice as well for my family and my children. Hearing about San Diego as a place, it would be an incredible change for us. And also as a coach, I wanted to challenge myself in a different league. I wanted to come and see if I could adapt to what my style was in England and try and bring a little bit of what I can do there, here, knowing that it's a very different league, that it is very transitional, that the players here would rather lose trying to win, which is a different mindset than in England. We would always take a point if it's available.

So it's been a massive education. Obviously, it's come with its challenges because of visa issues. My family aren't here and haven't been here since I've been here, so that's probably been the hardest thing I've ever had to do is live without them. But I think in those times and these challenges, it helps me grow as a person and it's certainly helped me grow as a coach. Because one of the things I did hear coming over here was that the players aren't coachable, they're entitled, and all of these nonsense statements that I can absolutely say are not true. They are so coachable, they're unbelievable at wanting to learn and wanting to do better, and they just want to win. They are absolute competitors, and it's a privilege to work with them every day.

Grant Wahl:

I'm sorry you're having to deal with visa issues for your family. I wasn't aware of that. Is that something that you're hoping to clear up before too long?

Casey Stoney:

It's solved now. They now have the visas. Now it's can we find a house and a school because I moved over myself so I didn't bother getting a big house and it didn't make financial sense to do that. So now it's about looking for a house that's suitable, because there's five of us, and get them in the right school because it's a huge culture change. I could be really honest, when I first landed in San Diego I was overwhelmed and I had moments where I was like, "What have I done?"

But as soon as I got into the job I was very motivated to do what I came to do, and now I just want to make sure it's right for my family, and that they can settle and they can be with me because it's the biggest challenge. It really is, and especially with an eight-hour time difference. Come 2 PM most days, I go home and I don't really have many people to communicate with because they're all asleep in bed. So it's been a challenge, but at the same time I'm very motivated by the job that I'm doing.

Grant Wahl:

How would you describe your coaching philosophy?

Casey Stoney:

My coaching philosophy is about people and it's about imparting your knowledge, but it's how you impart your knowledge onto the people that are in your room. Do you know your people? Do you build relationships enough that you can have those difficult conversations? That you can be open and honest and that you can add value no matter whether they're number one or number 26 on your roster. It doesn't matter.

And my coaching philosophy is about humility and the ability to own your own mistakes. And I try to role model that all the time because I'm not perfect, I am human, I do get things wrong and I own it with my players, alongside my players, and I want them to have a voice and empower them in my environment. And also I'm very much about standards. I always say that the thing that you are prepared to walk past is the standard you're willing to accept. And I'm very high on my standards. I won't accept sloppy standards, but at the same time I want to create an environment that's safe, fun, empowering, engaging, and developmental. Because every single one of my players still wants to develop. The minute they stop learning and wanting to develop is the day that they should hang the boots up. So my coaching philosophy is about relationships and value, and continuing to grow that.

Grant Wahl:

You mentioned Jill Ellis, who obviously won two World Cups as a coach with the U.S. team. What's your working relationship like with Jill? What aspects of the job is she involved in? How much communication do you have with her?

Casey Stoney:

Well, Jill's obviously the president, so she's been heavily focused on setting the business up and getting the marketing, the sponsorships, the ticketing, getting that side of things in the place where she wants it. She's pretty good at leaving me alone. She's there if I need her, if I want her knowledge. And obviously Jill's worked with international teams. I've worked with a club, so I've done this job before. I've done a startup, I've done building a club from the ground up. So I trust myself. If I need Jill, she's there. And she pretty much leaves me to get on with what I want to get on with. And obviously, she's done a fantastic job at driving this club forward, making sure we've got the right people in the right departments to be able to host a sell-out eight months into our existence. So she's doing a great job at a very different role for her. I'd say being a president is a very different role for her, but she's doing great at what she's doing.

Grant Wahl:

I was in Wembley to see England win the Euros at the end of July. It was an incredible scene. Really enjoyed following that tournament. What was that like for you to watch that?

Casey Stoney:

Honestly, very very emotional. We'd played Chicago the night before, and we were actually on a plane. And the whole week my team admin was panicking because she didn't know if we had TVs on the plane, and I was like, "I'm not getting on the plane if we haven't got TVs." And I've always said I'll always travel with my players, I'll always do the same thing my players do, but... So there was quite a few cheers when I was on the plane. And obviously, Jodie Taylor was on the plane, Carly Telford was on the plane, and we've all played for England as well, and obviously we've got a German player as well. So it was a little bit of rivalry there.

But I'll be honest, when the final whistle went, I just remember crying my eyes out, and I wasn't embarrassed about my emotion either because I'm like, I gave 18 years of my life and my entire life has been about growing the game in England and trying to make it better, and I knew when I was playing that we missed so many opportunities to change the game. And by England doing what they did, I don't think they just changed the game. They've changed a little bit of society too in England for women. And obviously, I've got two daughters now and I've got a little boy, and I just want them to be able to grow up knowing that they are his equal. And I think what those women did on that day kind of transcends into society, and I was just so massively proud of what they achieved and what they've done for not only women's football but women.

Grant Wahl:

I covered '99 here in the United States and I did make that comparison. It wasn't maybe exactly the same, but there were some similarities, it felt like to me, between what happened in 1999 here in the United States and what happened in England with women's soccer sort of transcending the sport this summer. Am I going over the top with that comparison?

Casey Stoney:

No, I think you're right. I think the narrative has changed, the conversation has changed. And little boys are now watching the women's game and were putting their names on the back of their shirts. And even the audiences, unfortunately, obviously the opening weekend of the Barclay's WSL didn't go ahead because of the Queen’s parting. But I think you look at the ticket sales and the attendances and what it's doing there, it's how you continue to capture that. How you continue to do the work in the wet winter months to keep these people coming back. How sponsors want to stay on board, not just jump on board for a major tournament, and how you continue to get investment at the top. And also at the grassroots level too, because what I've seen here in America is the depth and the pool of talent at the youth age groups is absolutely phenomenal.

Now, we don't have that in England and there's still an attitude of, "It's a man's sport", and "You shouldn't be playing", and "Girls don't play football." And I think what those women did in the Euros has changed that conversation, changed that narrative. Not for everyone, because you're going to always have some small-minded people that believe it's their sport and that women shouldn't be playing it. But at the same time, I do think it went a long way towards that. And hopefully, more little girls will now pick up a ball and play, more dads will encourage their little girls to play, more male PE teachers will actually say "No, we need a girls' team as well as a boys' team." And even moms will change their perceptions because I've heard, "Well, my little girl's not playing football." And I'm like, "Well it's sport and sports should be for all." So I think what they've done is huge in our country.

Grant Wahl:

On October 7, Wembley will be filled again, this time for a game between England and the U.S. women's national team, a friendly that I think sold out in 24 hours. What do you think about this sort of budding rivalry between England and the United States? What are your thoughts about this game and looking ahead to the World Cup next year when they could meet again?

Casey Stoney:

I think it's so exciting, and I'm excited to see this game because if I'm honest, I don't think the U.S. have played a team that's tested them in some time, and England will certainly test them. It'll be a test of how tactically good they are, and physically. I think historically when I've played against America, sometimes you just felt like there were 12 or 13 players because athletically they were so more advanced than we were. I know we beat them in 2011 when we played them on home soil in a friendly, I think it was 2-1. Alex Morgan was just coming on the scene at that point. And then, since then, they've been really competitive, tight games: in the SheBelieves and obviously in the World Cup, and they've been really competitive. But I think this England team has gone to another level now.

So I'm really intrigued to see that battle, see how it plays out, see the key battles in the areas because I think also what England haven't faced is a frontline like America have got with the speed, the athleticism, the movement, the ability to score goals. But also, America haven't faced England and how tactically good they are, and how they can score goals, and how they can open teams up. So I think it's going to be a fascinating battle. It's one I'm really looking forward to. And obviously a sold-out Wembley is going to be an incredible occasion.

Grant Wahl:

Casey, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Casey Stoney:

You're very welcome. Thanks for having me.

The Yates Report, an independent investigation led by former acting U.S. attorney general Sally Q. Yates into abuse in women’s soccer commissioned by the U.S. Soccer Federation, was released Monday. I’m diving into reading it, and you can too at this link.

U.S. Soccer’s response can be read here.

It’s tough reading, so be forewarned. But it’s also essential reading. I’ll share my thoughts after I’m done reading the report.

The U.S. women’s national team beat Nigeria 4-0 in a friendly in Kansas City, Kan., on Saturday. The U.S. goals came from Sophia Smith (two), Lindsey Horan and Alex Morgan. Here are my three thoughts on the game:

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• The U.S. combined well, often with Sophia Smith on the end of things. The 22-year-old Smith has been a goal-scoring machine for club and country this year, and that continued on Saturday as she struck twice in the first half to put the game out of reach quickly. Smith’s speed, balance, creativity and finishing ruthlessness have made her an emerging star, and those attributes were on full display against the Nigerians. (Smith hit the woodwork as well in the first half.) Give credit to the U.S. for also doing the passing combination work leading up to Smith’s strikes that has often been missing this year. Smith told me recently: “I want to be the best player in the world.” And if she keeps improving at the rate she’s going, that’s a real possibility in the coming years.

• Lindsey Horan is in better form than she was at the CONCACAF tournament. Horan wasn’t moving very well during the entirety of the July tournament, when her passing was up and down and there were questions about her being injured, but she was more fluid and dangerous in Saturday’s game. Her distribution created danger on several occasions, and she finished the U.S.’s second goal in the box after a move to create space before her shot. Horan has been an impact player for European champion Lyon, and you’d like to think she could be the same for the U.S., especially with the long-term injury absence of Sam Mewis. Even better, Horan was able to funnel the ball wide more quickly on Saturday than she had in July, which created more opportunities for quicker crosses to unbalance the defense. That’s a lot better than when the USWNT sometimes regresses to hopeful crosses aimed to nobody.

• I’m ready for the U.S. to play tougher competition (i.e., England). I understand the scheduling and other complications that have made the U.S.’s opponents this year not exactly a murderer’s row—Nigeria, Uzbekistan, Iceland, etc.—and the U.S. can’t choose its foes in a CONCACAF tournament. But it’s hard to take too much away from a lot of these games when the opposition just isn’t world-class. Nigeria, which will meet the U.S. again on Tuesday, finished a disappointing fourth at the recent AFCON (despite still qualifying for the World Cup) and was missing a half-dozen starters Saturday. That one U.S. game against Canada in July remains the team’s only elite opponent in 2022. But thankfully that will change on October 7 when the USWNT travels to Wembley stadium to meet European champion England in a friendly before a hyped-up, sold-out crowd. Can that game come any sooner?

What are your thoughts on the game? You can join the discussion in the comments below.

At 22, Sophia Smith is going places. She’s on fire in the NWSL, where the Portland Thorns winger has 11 goals on the season, tied for the league lead. And she has become an impact starter for the USWNT, helping lead the U.S. to the recent CONCACAF title. We recently got our first chance to have a sit-down interview together, which I really enjoyed below.

The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is the MVP favorite this season in the NWSL and one of the electric young attackers on the U.S. women's national team. Sophia Smith has 11 goals for the first-place Portland Thorns and recently helped lead the United States to the CONCACAF championship. Sophia, congratulations on everything you're doing and thanks for coming on the show.

Sophia Smith:

Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm excited.

Grant Wahl:

So we're going to talk Portland. We're going to talk the national team, but first I want to ask you about something that you posted on Twitter a few years ago. It was a cool photograph of young you with Abby Wambach when she was with the U.S. women's national team. What were the circumstances around that photograph?

“I want to be the best player in the world. That’s always been my goal. That’s always been my dream, even when I was little. I know it’s a big goal, but it’s something that I know that I can achieve.” — Sophia Smith

Sophia Smith:

So I had just gotten my first cap with the U.S. women's national team. I just remember she tweeted something about me getting my first cap. And I thought to myself, I was like, "Wait, I have a picture with her when I was little." I remember going and watching her play with the women's national team and her being a huge reason why I started to have the dreams that I had and started to really work toward being on the national team and that being one of my biggest goals. So I had my mom dig around to find the picture, and I tweeted it back at her and just said, "You are a big reason why I am where I am today," just to thank her for being an inspiration.

Grant Wahl:

It was a really cool exchange between the two of you because you had a little back and forth, I remember. Have you had any interactions with Abby Wambach since then?

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Sophia Smith:

No. That's really it.

Grant Wahl:

Okay. Interesting. I guess she's also an owner in the league now with Angel City, so she's a little bit of an opponent now.

Sophia Smith:

Yeah. It's a little bit of a rival, but I'm always following her and her wife. I think they're some of the coolest people, but I'm just grateful that even that interaction happened.

Grant Wahl:

Right now things seem to be going really well with the Thorns. First place in the league. You're scoring a lot of goals. You've got 11 now on the season. Why do you think things are going so well? What's coming together for y'all?

Sophia Smith:

I think it's a lot of things. I think we came into this season, there was a lot of change. We had a new coach, a new ownership, new players, new faces. I think going into this season, realizing that we have to take it game by game and not look too far ahead of ourselves because the NWSL season is a long season. If you get caught trying to look too far ahead or focusing on what hasn't happened yet, I think that's when you kind of start to struggle. 

This group has done a really good job of growing every single day, whether it's in training or a game. Just building that chemistry and those relationships on and off the field, I feel like we've put a lot of attention in the details. Just taking each day as it is, and each challenge as it is. Every game is a new opportunity. I think we are just focused on that. I think that's what is helping us and allowing us to be successful as we are just very in the moment.

Grant Wahl:

What in particular about your game individually, especially the goal-scoring part of it, has taken a leap this year? What are you seeing?

Sophia Smith:

I think it's just confidence in the freedom to be myself and to play how I like to play, and the way I feel I'm best playing. I think it fits into this team really well. I think everyone brings their specialty to the game. Our coaching staff and the Thorns as a program allows people to be special and to be themselves, and figuring out a way to be able to do that, as well as helping my team in any way that I can. I think it's just gone really well. I think that's allowed me to be more confident, regardless of my age, regardless of how many years I've had in the league. I feel like I've found my place. And I'm just having fun. I think that's the biggest thing. I'm not stressing out about awards, or any of that stuff, I'm not thinking too much about. I'm honestly just having fun. I think with that comes goals. I love scoring goals. And ultimately our team wins.

Grant Wahl:

I'm glad you're not stressing out about awards or nominations. I am sort of angry on your behalf today though, because the Ballon d’Or nominations came out, and I think there are three Americans and two NWSL players on the nomination list. I would've thought if that were the case that you would be one of them, because you've had a terrific year. I was surprised about this. I don't know if I'd say I was angry, but were you surprised?

Sophia Smith:

No. I'm pretty used to kind of being, I don't know, not talked about. I feel like I have stopped caring about those things because a lot of the time it's not going to be what you want. Ultimately, those awards don't mean a lot to me. I'm happy with where I am. I'm proud of what I've been able to accomplish so far. Obviously I want to do a lot more. If those awards come, great. If they don't, you know, it is what it is. I'd say I'm just used to it at this point.

Grant Wahl:

I know one award I'm sure you're excited about and really pushing for is winning the NWSL title later this season. Obviously, you are on a good track right now, but your league has playoffs. What to you are the most important things that you and your team need to do to put yourselves in a position to keep that momentum going through the playoffs and win that trophy?

Sophia Smith:

I think it's just a matter of continuing what we've been doing. I think it's very easy toward the end of the season for teams to get comfortable, or to stop doing the little details and to be tired, rightfully so. It's a long season. But I think as long as we can continue to take each game as it is and focus on putting everything we have into the game that we have at that moment, that's going to be huge for us. To continue to just believe in ourselves and to trust our teammates around us that we've made it this far. We just have to continue doing that and not think too much about the end result, but know that's what we're going after.

Grant Wahl:

You are from Colorado originally. On this podcast earlier this year, we've had Lindsey Horan, who's also from Colorado originally. We had Mal Pugh, who's also from Colorado originally. And all of you are making big impacts at club level right now and with the national team. I'm sort of fascinated with the idea of soccer hotbeds, and Colorado certainly seems like a talent hotbed, including in the women's game. What is it about the culture there that produces that?

Sophia Smith:

I get asked this question a lot. People ask me what's in the water in Colorado. Honestly, I can speak on my experience playing soccer in Colorado. It's the club that I played for. It's the coaches that I had the honor of being coached by. I learned so much playing for Real Colorado. I had amazing coaches there, the main one being Lorne Donaldson, who I give a lot of credit to helping me get to where I am today and believing in me and seeing the potential in me.

So I think it's the environment. It's the coaches who care about the development of players and who believe in players, even from a young age. I just think having players from Colorado to look up to for young girls right now, for myself, I had Mal to follow on in her footsteps, and Lindsey's a little older than her, so maybe it was Lindsey for her. But I think seeing people do it before you and come from the same place as you definitely helps a lot, and match that with the amazing clubs that there are in Colorado, it's a good place to be a women's soccer player.

Grant Wahl:

I was going to ask you about Lorne Donaldson because he is the Jamaica women's national team coach now. They're going to be at the world cup. He's done a very good job there. Why is he so good at it? What did you learn from him that made him a special coach for you?

Sophia Smith:

For me, I'm someone who learns best from someone putting me in my place and someone telling me how it is, being very honest with me, not sugarcoating anything. And that's Lorne. So I guess if you are someone who doesn't handle that very well, maybe they would've had a different experience, but for me that's what I needed. That's what pushed me to continue to want to get better. I think he's that, but he's also very caring. He's also someone to believe in you more than anyone else, and to want what's best for you. The way that he does that is just unlike any coach I've ever had. He knows soccer really well. He knows the details and he helps you work on those things.

Grant Wahl:

So what's an example of something that he might have said to you as a coach that was giving it to you straight that not every coach would do?

Sophia Smith:

I mean, there were a lot of moments. Obviously, at the time, I thought, "This guy's crazy. I don't like him," but looking back, yeah, I absolutely loved him. I think one of the biggest ones, I don't know if this helped me or not, but it's just an example of him being very honest. We were at a club game. I don't remember where, and I just wasn't having the best game. At halftime, he in front of the whole team, said something about, "Do you think these national team coaches are going to want to bring you into camp when you're playing like this?" Something like that. 

I was just embarrassed and wanted to cry, and just like, "How can this guy say that to me in front of everyone?" But he was just... He got on me. I think he knew at the time, maybe I didn't know this, but that's how you piss me off and fire me up. After that, I'm going to go out and prove to him why these national team coaches are going to bring me into camp. So that's just one example, but there's quite a few that we laugh about now.

Grant Wahl:

Thank you for sharing. I was in the stadium in Mexico when you were playing for the U.S. recently and scored this really absurd goal, amazing goal, with the outside of your foot, against Jamaica. What exactly was your thought process in the moment to even try something like that?

Sophia Smith:

I think when I get in my zone, and when I am just playing without really thinking too much about things, I just try things. I feel like I have the confidence within the national team now to play like that, because that's how I know how to play, but I think in that moment I just was figuring out how to get the ball in the back of the net. I remember there was a defender coming on my left side. So if I would've waited for the ball to settle down and hit it with my left foot, it would've gotten blocked. 

I saw the little opening on the far side of the goalkeeper. I just thought this is the only way I can get it there, so let me try it. Hopefully it works, and it worked. I hit it pretty good, but yeah, when I feel good, I just try things. I think that's how those things happen.

Grant Wahl:

Are there any other outrageous skill things like that that you've been working on maybe in training, to try and get right?

Sophia Smith:

Not really specifically. In training, when we do small-side and stuff, I'm always trying new things and trying to be a little crafty and creative and figure out ways to, I don't know, put on a show. But I think it mostly just comes to me in games, and I envision it, and then I just do it.

Grant Wahl:

Vlatko Andonovski down in Mexico, the U.S. coach, said at one point, and this was after I think a really good game you had, maybe the Jamaica game, said that you can be hard on yourself at times if you don't score in a game. Is that accurate? Is that changing? What's your sense?

Sophia Smith:

Yeah, that's accurate. I've always considered myself a goal scorer. That's what I feel like I do best. That's what I feel like I can contribute to the teams that I'm on. I think, as I've gotten older and played in different teams, played in the league and with the national team, I’ve realized that a goal doesn't mean a good performance, and a good performance doesn't mean you had a goal. I'm starting to really realize that. Every game is different. There'll be times where it's just not happening for me in terms of putting the ball in the back of the net. So it's how can I help my teammates do that? How can I set up my teammates? Yeah, I think I've just stopped putting so much emphasis on if I score a goal, it's a good game. If I don't, it's a bad game, because in reality, there's so much more happening in a game.

Grant Wahl:

When I was starting out covering soccer, North Carolina had the biggest women's program. They won the NCAA title every year. It seems like more recently Stanford has become the team, one of the couple teams, that seems to win a heck of a lot at the college level. You went to Stanford, played there. I'm curious, what was your experience like playing at Stanford? I did a big story not long ago on Catarina Macario. What was it like playing there with people like that?

Sophia Smith:

It was awesome. I loved everything about Stanford. I think the environment... You have to be someone who wants to win to play on that team. You have to be someone who wants to achieve greatness, because first of all getting into Stanford is not easy, let alone being a student athlete at Stanford. It's hard. I think when you fill a team with those types of people who just want to work hard, want to be great, want to win, you get the results that we've been getting. I think when I was there, we had an unreal team, looking back. Not to sound cocky or anything, but that had to have been one of the best college teams of all time. Looking at the people who were on that team, what we were able to accomplish. I think just being on that team allowed me to grow in so many ways. And I could look around me left and right and learn from the players around me. It was just a really amazing environment to be in.

Grant Wahl:

I saw recently that you signed a new three-year contract with the Thorns. So congratulations on that.

Sophia Smith:

Thank you.

Grant Wahl:

Did you have any interest in a European team, or was it Portland all the way?

Sophia Smith:

I mean, I have always thought about going to Europe and playing overseas. It's always been an option. I think right now in my career playing here, being close to home, Portland is just where I feel like I belong right now. It's where I want to be. I love this city. I love the team. I love the club. And I'm really happy right now. That's not to say that later down the road there will be opportunities in Europe, or abroad or wherever. That's definitely not crossed off my list. It's just right now this is what I feel like is best for me. And we'll see what happens later down the road.

Grant Wahl:

For a number of years when I was covering the U.S. women's national team, it was a pretty white team. I remember covering the '99 women's World Cup. Actually, recently Briana Scurry met up with me here in New York. She had her book come out, wrote about her experience. And she was the only Black starter on that U.S. team. I'm wondering, now that we're finally seeing a lot of Black players on the U.S. women's national team, is that something that you notice? Is that something that's important to you?

Sophia Smith:

Yeah. It's definitely something I notice, because I am one of them. It's not every day that I can look around me and see a lot of players like me. Even growing up, I was always one of few Black players on my club teams. I think it's great. I think representation matters. For a lot of young Black girls, girls of color out there looking at this team and watching this team play, I think it's great for them to see people who look like them, and to know that that can be them too. You still have to realize that the people who are on this team deserve to be on this team for no reason other than how they're performing, and what they can do on the field. If that so happens to be a lot of Black girls, that's great. I think it's time that we get the same recognition that everyone has gotten. I think it's just great to have more diversity in all aspects of life. Especially with this team, it's great for everyone, I think.

Grant Wahl:

Following you on Twitter, I saw that your boyfriend is the Stanford wide receiver Michael Wilson. How do you influence each other as elite athletes?

Sophia Smith:

In so many ways. He is the most hardworking person I know, and I know a lot of athletes. He does everything right. He does everything to set himself up for success. I think that's something that I learned from and have continued to learn from him the past three years, is how can I do the little details to set myself up to be successful. What does that look like? He teaches me that. I learn so much from him. And I think vice versa. I think we're just very supportive of each other and understand the goals and dreams that we have and do everything we can to help each other achieve those and to support each other in whatever way we can. Because being athletes, it is stressful. He's at Stanford, and that's really stressful, trying to balance athletics and academics. Just supporting each other and being there for each other, and continuing to just help each other achieve our dreams and goals that we have.

Grant Wahl:

When I told some friends, younger friends, that I was interviewing you, one, they were excited, and then two, they said you’ve got to ask her about the bubble braid. I'm not usually a hair expert, as you can probably tell. 

Sophia Smith:

You aren’t? (laughs)

Grant Wahl:

I'm not always up on trends. Is the bubble braid your thing? How did that start?

Sophia Smith:

I have two older sisters. My mom used to always put us in bubble braids when we were little. I think at the time I didn't think anything of it, but this year, my hair has been a little longer and I've tried to find something new to do. I didn't want to do just the traditional braid. I didn't want to do a bun anymore, so I kind of just one day with the national team did a bubble braid. And I really liked it, and I played really well. So I was like, "Okay, I think this is the season of the bubble braid," and I've just done it ever since. Now people associate me with the bubble braid. I can't change it now because it's already too far out there.

Grant Wahl:

It's funny, because I did a story a couple months ago on the U.S. men's national team actually puts their money together to fly out a barber to national team camps occasionally. This guy is here in New York, actually, is where he is based. I went out to his barber shop, talked to him. Really interesting figure. Do you have someone like that on the U.S. women's team, or do you handle your hair yourselves?

Sophia Smith:

We do not. I want to say most people do their own hair. I think Pinoe obviously has someone that she goes to get her crazy fun colors done, but yeah, as far as like game hair, most people do it themselves unless they need help doing a braid. And we have a few players on the team that will help out with that, but we don't travel with a hair stylist. (laughs)

Grant Wahl:

I'm glad you've cleared up these very important topics. It's interesting though. I love that stuff.

Sophia Smith:

Yeah. It's a good question.

Grant Wahl:

I guess one thing I would ask is, it's August. A year from now is the World Cup. Obviously, there's going to be a lot of things happening at club level between now and then, you'll have big national team games coming up. Let's ask about one of those big national team games against England. I was at the Euro final at Wembley. It was full. It's going to be full again in October when the world champion U.S. plays the European champion England. The game sold out in 24 hours. What's your sense of this game? What's your excitement level?

Sophia Smith:

I'm beyond excited. I think it's going to be a great test for us. This is a top, top team. It's always a rivalry game when we play England. So I think it's just going to be a really good game. To play in Wembley and to have it sold out is like a dream come true for any soccer player. I am beyond excited. I know everyone on the team cannot wait. Obviously, we have to prepare for it and be ready for it because it's not going to be easy, but I think it's going to be great. It's just great for women's soccer in general.

Grant Wahl:

Now I had Heather O'Reilly on the podcast last week. I asked her to handicap the game. I realize it's a friendly, but still, she said she gave a slight advantage to England just because they've come through a harder tournament than the U.S. did in CONCACAF, even though you did beat Canada, the Olympic gold medalist, in the final. Do you disagree with Heather? Or what's your response to anyone who thinks that England has the edge in this game?

Sophia Smith:

I think that opinion is not rare. I think everyone thinks what they want to think. We really do not care. Yeah, we don't care. We will do what we need to do to get a result in this game, and not only this game, but in every tournament we play in, including the World Cup. If people want to doubt us, or not believe in us, that's their own choice, but yeah, we don't care.

Grant Wahl:

I do want to ask you about the year between now and the World Cup for this U.S. team, because Andonovski in Mexico said when he was asked about this topic, he was like, if the World Cup were tomorrow, I wouldn't say that we're totally ready. We will be ready for the World Cup a year from now. From your perspective, what are some of the things that you think will be ready for the World Cup that maybe wouldn't be ready tomorrow?

Sophia Smith:

We have a lot of new faces on this team, a lot who are young and don't have a lot of experience on a big stage playing against big opponents. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I think it's a great new, fresh energy, but at the same time we have to build those relationships. We have to find the chemistry. We can only do that with experience and with time. So having the friendlies that we have coming up and using every single moment we have in camp together I think is so important for us. I know by the time the World Cup comes around, it will just flow, and we will all play so well together. It's just a matter of time before everything starts clicking really well, because the talent that we have and the players that we have that want to win everything, it's unreal. I think it's just trusting that with time, with games, it will be really, really fun. It's just a matter of time before it's all flowing.

Grant Wahl:

I just want to finish it up with one more question. Usually, I ask this when I talk to a young player and it's the first time we’ve sat down for an interview together. What do you want to achieve in your career?

Sophia Smith:

I want to be the best player in the world. That's always been my goal. That's always been my dream, even when I was little. I know it's a big goal, but it's something that I know that I can achieve. I think as long as I continue to be confident and bring what I can to every game, I think I’ll achieve that.

In terms of goals, I want to win everything that I play in. I want to help the Thorns become a great team, even better than they've already been. And the national team, I want to continue the legacy that this U.S. women's national team has had and take it even farther, and just grow each and every day as a player and as a person, and use the experiences that I get to help me in life, even after soccer.

Grant Wahl:

Sophia Smith is the MVP favorite this season in NWSL and one of the electric young attackers on the U.S. women's national team. Sophia, thanks for coming on the show.

Sophia Smith:

Thanks for having me.

One of my favorite stories in recent years came during the 2016 Olympics, when I interviewed Heather O’Reilly—who won one World Cup and three Olympic gold medals—about why she had decided to be an alternate for the U.S. team, which meant unless a surprise injury happened she wouldn’t even get a medal if the U.S. had won one. It became a discussion on why you play the sport, and what it means to be a competitor. And it dovetails nicely with O’Reilly’s recent decision to come out of retirement and join Irish champion Shelbourne FC. O’Reilly always wanted to play in the UEFA Champions League, but she never did. Now, at 37, she’s getting the chance.

The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is an old friend and World Cup and Olympic champion. Heather O'Reilly just came out of retirement and joined Irish champion Shelbourne FC, which will be competing in the UEFA Champions League this season. HAO, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Heather O'Reilly:

Thanks, Grant. Yep, nice to see you again and nice to work with you in a different context once again.

Grant Wahl:

Exactly. I mean, this is a really cool story and I think surprised some folks, but we want to know more about it. So a simple question to start, why did you want to do this?

“[Megan] Rapinoe wrote to me from the bus over in Seattle, just kind of like, ‘We love you. You’re nuts. Get after it.’” — Heather O’Reilly

Heather O'Reilly:

Well, it's a pretty simple and pure story. I got to fulfill a lot of my soccer dreams during my career, obviously winning a World Cup, winning a bunch of Olympic medals. I played at my dream university at UNC and won a couple championships there. And then when I sort of got into my mid-thirties, I decided to ply my trade over in Europe since that was something that I never really had an opportunity to do. I always felt like when I was with the U.S. national team and the way that it was sort of structured before, I never had the guts, I guess, to go to Europe because I never wanted to miss any training camps with the U.S. women's national team. And I also just felt like I needed to be in the U.S. to be sort of seen, evaluated and selected.

So for me, going to Arsenal was something after I had retired from the U.S. women's national team that I wanted to go do. And I had a wonderful experience for 18 months. When I came onto the team, we had gotten third place the year before. And at that point there was only two spots for Champions League for the English league, and now that it has expanded to three, but at that point there were only two. So we missed out. So when I went to Arsenal, I knew that I wasn't going to be playing Champions League football, but I said, "Okay, I've done a lot of things. It's not a huge deal, never played Champions League. Maybe by the end of my time there, I can get them back to Champions League football, that would be a great goal." In the end, we wound up getting third again.

And it was a good experience over there, but to be honest, the tail end of my time at Arsenal was very difficult for me. It was like if I had to say the darkest and worst patch of my life, I would probably say that was it. I think I was internalizing a lot in terms of what I sort of saw was the end of my career. And you hear about kind of like the grieving process of an athlete, and I think that this anxiety and stress that maybe this was it for me was stressing me a lot. And so, yeah, I didn't end well, put it that way, with my stint at Arsenal.

So I came back to the U.S., I played for another year and half for North Carolina, but I always sort of like had, I don't know, this unsettled feeling of my time over in Europe. And also we didn't qualify for the Champions League that year either, we got third. So I felt like there was some unfinished business. And listen, I'm a competitor, I'm passionate, I get these things in my head and I need to like do them, right? So then I hung up my boots, I thought was hanging up my boots in North Carolina and I had two kids and coach at UNC and do some TV work, but there was always this bit of annoying unfinished business. Like I said, I never played Champions League. I thought that the dream was dead, but I rose it up and the dream is still alive and yeah, I sort of made it happen.

Grant Wahl:

That's really cool. How did this particular club and you come together?

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Heather O'Reilly:

So I guess it all starts a couple of months ago when I took part in Soccer Aid, actually Carli [Lloyd] was asked to play in it, and I think the Soccer Aid folks, I don't know if they needed more women or what, but they asked Carli, "Do you have any other former teammates that would be good for Soccer Aid?" And she immediately thought of me because I play pick up quite a bit and play with my team at UNC. So I played Soccer Aid, which was wonderful. And to lace them up with … I was on the right wing, Cafú was behind me, and Patrice Evra was on the team and Shevchenko and Usain Bolt up top. So we had a blast, and Arsène Wenger was my manager and Carli and I definitely held our own with the guys, Carli was still quite good at soccer for anybody that's wondering.

But after I was chatting with Arsène just about our time over at Arsenal, because his final season was when I was over there as well, and we had spoken a few times at the training ground in like the line for salad bar, basically, in the canteen after training. But it was nice to reconnect with him and he said [starting Wenger impression], "Heather, you are still very good. Why did you stop? You should continue to play football." And I said, "Thanks, Arsène. I don't know. I did it. I did it all. I really kind of left everything I have for the game. And I have these two little kids now, and I’m coaching doing all this stuff." He goes, "Well, you should still play." And I said, "Well, I've never played Champions League, that did always bother me." He goes, "You should do it."

And so I don't know, like I puffed my chest out and if Arsène Wegner says that I still got it, I think I still got it. So that trip kind of came and went, and I was starting to sort of have this thought in my head, and then fast forward a few weeks later, and actually with Carli, Alexi Lalas, myself and a bunch of others are part of a group now called the Next 90, which was a FIFA project of former players, it's essentially a year-long course for former players transitioning to whatever you're doing next. It just equips you with some business classes and things like that, just all kinds of things if you want to start your own business, if you want to be a director somewhere of a club. And yeah, so we've had a blast, but it's all virtual except for this one in-person meeting.

And so we all went to Zurich and we played a friendly match. I was on Alexi’s team. I think we lost, I missed a peno, which was disappointing. Anyways, so that got us kind of talking again, like at a dinner table that I never played Champions League, that I always wanted to. And people there are like, "Heather, if you want to play Champions League, you can play Champions League. There's like 70 clubs that are going to be in Champions League, at least trying to qualify. I'm sure we could find some place for you." And so actually what happened is we pulled up the UEFA website and I started to do some research into what could be some really interesting projects for me. And it has to be the right fit, right? I'm 37, I haven't played in two and a half years and it's sort of like, what would be a good fit? What would suit me and what would suit them and be sort of like a win-win for both sides?

I did consider FC Zurich there for a while. I was going to work with Arsène and do sort of like an internship for a number of months, but work permit stuff, Swiss law, was a little bit too complicated. It was going to take too long. By that point, Champions League would be over. Anyways, so I reached out actually to Shelbourne, and they wrote back right away and were like, "Yes, this is awesome. We know all about you." Noel King used to coach the women's national team for Ireland and way back he tried to look into my Irish, I guess, ancestry, but my great, great, great grandparents had come over to the U.S., so that wasn't even a possibility even back in the day.

But anyways, so we've faced up against each other for many years. Noel King is the head coach here now. And yeah, one thing led to another, I persuaded my husband to come over and make a trip of it. And the team is heading to Slovenia now in a few days for our first Champions League game on August 18. So for all that are listening, follow your dreams, you're not too old, it's not too late, take it from me.

Grant Wahl:

Thank you for sharing all of that. That's such an awesome story. It almost makes me wish there was some sort of video series being filmed right now about this experience. But, so Arsène Wegner, good impression, by the way. I didn't know you had that in you.

Heather O'Reilly:

Yeah, well I did that for somebody else the other day. They're like, I don't know who Swedish Arsene Wenger is, but that's not exactly his accent. I said I'm trying my best. I'm from Jersey living in Ireland, there's a lot of different accents flying around.

Grant Wahl:

So how does Champions League work with this team, are there qualifying games or how is this set up?

Heather O'Reilly:

Yep. So there's been some iterations of women's Champions League, like structure and setup. So essentially some nations in Europe, obviously their champion goes, but then they maybe have two spots or three spots, like I was referring to England having, but Ireland just has the one spot. So there's sort of like a champions side and then there's a league side, which includes some of the clubs that maybe didn't finish first, but they're considered one of the more prominent leagues in Europe. I think like in Spain they have maybe two spots, in France, England, Denmark, places like that have multiple entrants.

So there's sort of these two paths, you play against each other. Right now it's sort of like pods of four. So we'll go over to Slovenia, play the champion of Slovenia, but also playing there will be the champions of Armenia playing the champions of Iceland. So after we play Slovenia, which is considered the semifinal, we'll hopefully play the winner of those two, and Iceland has a good chance to beat that team. So if we win those semifinals and final, then we'll continue on and do the same thing once again. And at that point it will be some more difficult teams in the mix, but it would be a few more rounds until we could face the likes of an Arsenal or Barcelona, and what a dream that would be.

So my goal, obviously, it was just a suit up for Champions League, but now because I'm a competitor and I try to be a winner, if I could help the team get to the group stages, that would be, I think, a huge success and a huge step forward for the league here and the team here. The league here is very much like a feeder program, I would say, to even the league in Scotland and in England. This is totally amateur, not even allowed to receive money if they wanted to. It's fully non-professional, put it that way. Our training sessions are at night. A lot of people either work or are students and yeah, we train three days a week at night and play a match on the weekend. So still a lot of work needed here.

But the level's good, and they are about two thirds of the way through the season right now. It's set up the same as NWSL. So not a winter league like England would be. So yeah, we have a bunch of cup games and a bunch of league games, so I'm playing in those as well in order to sort of get to know my teammates so we have the best chance that we can have going over to Slovenia, which I've never been to by the way, I heard it's a lovely country. Have you been?

Grant Wahl:

I have not been to Slovenia. I know … mountains. When the U.S. men played Slovenia in the 2010 World Cup, and tied 2-2, but U.S. was down 2-0 in that game, and they had some good players, Slovenia, former Yugoslav republic. It's amazing how many former Yugoslav republics have qualified for major tournaments. It makes you wonder how good just one Yugoslavia would be. But I remember the shirts that Slovenia wore, we called them the Charlie Brown shirts, because they actually had the mountains in a diagonal on them. So I just told you literally everything I know about the country of Slovenia, so I'm sure you'll learn much more.

Heather O'Reilly:

Yeah. We head there on the 16th. So I'll hopefully have some photos and a little bit more to report back on. I don't know much about it either, and I'm excited for this adventure.

Grant Wahl:

Will we be able to see it if we wanted to watch these games you're playing in?

Heather O'Reilly:

Hmm, shoot, I wish I knew the answer for that for this interview. We'll have to do an editor's note and add to it. I'm sure there'll be streaming of it. It's 2022, there's got to be an online streaming somewhere. Maybe ATA Football will pick it up somehow through the Slovenian stream. I hope so. And if I get it, I will make sure I blast it out. I'm already sending all my friends like Shelbourne FC t-shirts. The gear is actually quite cool, it's like old school Umbro stuff. And yeah, I'm digging it so far.

Grant Wahl:

And so are you still going to be able to coach and do television with this?

Heather O'Reilly:

Yep, so unless we make this miraculous Champions League run, which I don't put it past us and myself, but if we do not, the season ends November 1. So Anson Dorrance, who's my boss at UNC, has been very gracious, he knows how my brain works and it's sort of guided me through my life so far that yeah, if I get an idea, I need to see it through. So I've been talking about this Champions League thing for years now, and he knows that I have an opportunity to go do it. Actually he said, "Heather, I hope you go, you have a blast, play well. I hope you lose immediately and come home as soon as possible."

Grant Wahl:

That sounds very Anson. You didn't do an Anson voice impression there.

Heather O'Reilly:

[Tries Dorrance impression] "Hey, good luck Heath, I hope you lose, come home early, but good luck," that would be more what it's like. I said, "Thanks for the support, Anson," and walked out the door, but I'm the second assistant with UNC. I mean, I'm watching as much as I can watch. They just had their beep test and their early scrimmages for the season. And so I can watch some of those and kind of give some feedback. So I think that the team was excited for me. They saw me running some sprints while they were running sprints, getting ready for their beep test, I was running sprints. And they're like, "What are you running for?" Even though it's not super unique to see me getting a hard workout in. So I told them, they were excited. I think they're like, "Oh gosh, you're a little crazy," but also like I said, I always wanted to play Champions League, I never did it. And it's essentially now or never. I don't want to write off me in my forties, but I mean, I am 37, so I think it's safe to say that it is now or never for me to fulfill this dream.

Grant Wahl:

And how has it felt so far, your playing interactions with your new teammates?

Heather O'Reilly:

It's felt fine, it's felt fine. It's like an old comfy glove, putting it back on. I mean, like I said, I played Soccer Aid, I play like in Chapel Hill, there's a Monday-Wednesday-Friday pick up game. We call it noon ball even though we play at 11 AM, for some reason we still call it noon ball. It's essentially a lunchtime 5-a-side league. There were only two teams. But yeah, so, I mean, I have been touching the ball a little bit. Clearly 5-a-side is not the same thing as playing a 90 minute 11-a-side match. So I'm still kind of gaining my fitness back. I wanted to make sure that when I came over here, I didn't try to be a hero and do too much too soon and like pull a hammy or something, because that would be a total bust. So I've just made sure that I'm taking care of my body and just taking it slow to sort of gear up for that game.

That being said, I did jump in the first match. I was home, got off the red-eye on Friday morning, then we traveled like three hours the next day up to a place called Sligo, and they tied it up 2-2. So a bunch of us went in the game, even though it's probably not the smartest thing for me to do, considering everything I just said about taking care of my body, and then Sligo scored right after we went in, it was devastating. And then they were treating it like the World Cup final. I mean, to be fair, they scored great goals and they defended well, and we just could not get a goal there at the end. And then they all rushed the field, I think because they were like second to last and we’re top of the league. And then plus with the news of me coming, it was really kind of David taking down Goliath. So that wasn't an awesome entrance for me into my debut, my repeated debut for the league here, but what can you do? We'll bounce back, and we actually have a cup game tomorrow and then another league game next week and then we head to Slovenia.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah, we're talking on Friday, August 5, coming out Monday the 8th. And what has the response been to your decision here? Whether it's from your former teammates on the national team or people like that or in Ireland, what has the response been too?

Heather O'Reilly:

Oh, I guess I'll do the Ireland part first. The team thought it was hilarious. They kind of essentially laughed, I guess, because yeah, not to toot my own horn, but this club has never had a World Cup champion come over here. Actually Damien Duff is the men's coach, and you might remember that name. He played for Chelsea in like mid-2000s for Chelsea, Newcastle for a few years. And he made a joke, when he heard that I might be coming over, he's like, "Well, if it doesn't work for the women's team, we'll take you on the men's team."

And so the club was fired up. I mean just in terms of like the PR side of things, and it made a splash, to be honest, as it rose some eyebrows. It was interesting, I think. And a whole lot of people know about Shelbourne FC now that maybe didn't before, which is the whole point. So yeah, it was big. It was like, yeah, it got good news pick-up. I was actually supposed to be on one of the late-night shows today and I think it's got bumped next week, but yeah. So doing all that kind of fun stuff.

And then back home, yeah, I think that my national team teammates, a couple of them wrote to me like Tobin and Rapinoe wrote to me from the bus over in Seattle, just kind of like, "We love you. You're nuts. Get after it." I don't think people are super surprised because I am pretty intense and always going to be in shape, and I love the game. So it's not like I'm the most surprising one to come out of retirement, but yeah, I think that people think that it's like pretty random but awesome. And just think it's fun that, yeah, I'm following a dream and making it happen.

Grant Wahl:

Couple more questions with Heather O'Reilly, really appreciate you taking the time. We've just seen the Euros end in England. We've seen England win that tournament in a very exciting way. And in my opinion, the story I wrote afterward was basically saying this was England's 1999, which I know it's not a hundred percent the same, but there's some similarities there. I mean, what were you thinking having played in England when you were watching this last weekend?

Heather O'Reilly:

Oh, I was thrilled for them. So I went over to Arsenal in 2017. So it's a number of years ago now. And I think that my first impressions of going over there was like, this is a sleeping giant. This country, the infrastructure, the support of football is all right there, really all that needs to happen is a bit of an influx of money, but also an influx of care for women's football and respect for the game. And sometimes I think that frustrated me a lot being over there because I've spent so much of my life in the U.S. trying to make soccer relevant, and the women's national team obviously carried a big load for a long time, and I'm really proud of that.

But when I went over to England, it was very much like a gender thing because I'm like, oh, here we go, football is everywhere, in every pub, everybody knows all the teams and it's so ingrained in the culture. So the only thing that's missing is just the respect of women doing it. And so it was almost hurtful sometimes how little coverage and how little respect we had. For instance, I mean, Arsenal is one of the leaders in their women's side, but still say we were trying to use the gym at the same time as the under 17 boys or under 18 boys, it was like not even a question who would get priority of the gym, it was the boys. And same thing with using some of the facilities. It was always kind of like, I don't know, you just felt like you were receiving a crumb and like kind of grateful for it.

And so I am proud that I think I chipped away and at least to the players, just let them know that we deserve this. We are the first team, we're one of the best teams in England, you're a national team player. Just sort of continuing to sort of push the envelope. And yeah, I'm not saying I was any savior in any way, but I think that I did bring a little bit of dialogue to the club and to women's football over there.

And even with the FA, I would joke with the FA like, "Hey, you need to get these girls up on billboards, like make them stars." Everybody loves following the stars. And it was a little bit, they didn't want the league to grow too top-heavy, they wanted to rise everybody in the league. And I'm like, "I'm sorry to break it to you, that's going to take like a hundred years. You don't have time for that. Just let the front lead and carry everybody with you." And that's what we've seen with Emma Hayes at Chelsea and some things that are going on at Man City and even Arsenal. But I think that it was really almost like a self-belief thing that was missing in England.

And so I think you fast forward five years and they have this huge moment of sporting history. Yeah, like you said, Grant, it's really an uncanny comparison to a lot that happened in '99. Yeah, just one, the quality was so good. The goals that were scored in the tournament were incredible, and you have some personalities coming out, people starting to know the players. It seems, and I wasn't in the dressing room, but it seems like Sarina Wiegman really changed the mentality of the team to one of fun and joy, but also they used the word ruthlessness in a lot of interviews. I think that she kind of brought a little bit of, I don't know, a killer instinct. And I always thought that the underdog card that England tried to pull for a long time, I think historically, but also their women's team, it was holding them back. It was kind of like they were almost fearful to take this security blanket off. And finally, whatever happened over there, they did this tournament and they just played exceptionally well, looked like they had a lot of fun and they got it done at home. I mean, just an incredible achievement.

And I have a lot of friends on the team, like Leah Williamson's the captain, she was like 20 years old when I was over there, but she was so mature. I would ask her for advice. She was like a mentor to me, even though I had like 13 years on her. And Beth Mead is my good friend as well. So I was thrilled for them. They have a lot of Tar Heels on the team, a lot of UNC fingerprints all over that championship with Sarina Wiegman had played at UNC a while ago under Anson and then Alessia Russo and Lotte Wubben-Moy and of course Lucy Bronze also played for season at UNC. So we're very proud of that. If we had any sort of, I don't know, imprint of competitive nature that helped them along the way, we'll take it.

Grant Wahl:

It was amazing timing, the next day after England wins this, they announce that they're going to have a friendly at Wembley against the U.S. women's national team in October. And it sold out basically in 24 hours, which is just really cool to see because that's a giant stadium. I was reminded of that being there the other day, you're talking about almost 90,000 people. And we're starting to see this with some more frequency, right? With Barcelona getting more than 90,000 twice during their Champions League run this year, even Morocco drawing really well during hosting the African championship, Colombia hosting the Copa América and also qualifying for the World Cup. And it really does seem like there's a wave right now of attendance figures that we haven't seen before in women's soccer.

In terms of just sort of the matchup between England and the U.S., I think we have a potential for a great rivalry here. What are your thoughts? And even from just an on-field perspective, how would you compare these two teams right now and where they are a year out from the World Cup?

Heather O'Reilly:

I think that they're very level, they're very even. I think yeah, all the sort of components that we had bit of an edge in terms of fitness, mentality, never say die attitude, all those sort of intangible things I think seemingly from their run in the Euros, they've taken a jump. And I think Sarina Wiegman's leadership there has been massive. They have a lot more time together right now at this point of the season. When you're in a major tournament like that, you're together for like five, six weeks. And so just playing those matches, having that camaraderie, I know that everybody will go home back to their clubs now for a number of weeks before getting back together for that friendly.

But I do think that they are essentially played in a little bit more than the U.S., even though the U.S. just had their qualifying run as well. So to be honest, I give a little bit of edge right now to England, just in terms of the form of the squad and the way that they were scoring goals. I think that they scored goals from all different ways, which was interesting, they had some really killer breakaway finishing, getting balls in behind, which you don't see too much with England before, scoring from corner kicks, scoring from some just cheeky plays from Alessia Russo. So their variety and their depth I thought was quite good.

I still don't think that anybody in the Euros is going to bring the same just wave after wave of speed that the U.S. has, especially right now with Sophia Smith and Rodman and Alex, we just have a lot of speed and direct play and transitional play that I think could hit them on the counter in a way that wasn't seen in the Euros. But the teams right now I think are very level in the way that they see themselves. I think that if you asked the U.S. team, like, "Are you the best team in the world?" Every single player would say with their chest out, like, "Yes, we're the best team in the world." If you ask England, "Are you the best team in the world?" Some of them might say like yeah, with a smile, some of them might say like, "We're getting there." And so I think that's just the difference in the demeanor right now between England and the U.S.

But yeah, what a game. I mean, I love that they're kind of striking while the iron's hot, as they say, and not just playing like a fluff opponent that they're going to knock home eight goals against, but playing the U.S. at Wembley. What an awesome opportunity for both teams, especially in the year leading up to the World Cup.

Grant Wahl:

Heather O'Reilly will be playing in the UEFA Champions League for Shelbourne FC. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

Heather O'Reilly:

Thanks, Grant. Thanks for having me. Keep up the great work.

LONDON — The comparison first hit me on Tuesday night, not long before England’s semifinal with Sweden, when I was outside Bramall Lane in Sheffield, and the bus carrying the England women’s national team happened to arrive near where I was standing. 

As I observed the scene of the home fans surrounding and serenading the bus with cheers, one thing in particular stood out: The players inside the bus were shooting cellphone videos of the spectacle just as much as the supporters were turning their cameras on the team.

All-encompassing national fervor is new to the Lionesses, who have long toiled in obscurity compared to their men’s counterparts. And it made me think back to the same thing happening with the U.S. women’s national team players before the first game of the 1999 World Cup. As their bus made its way up the New Jersey Turnpike to what would be a sold-out Giants Stadium, it slowly dawned on the USWNT that the overwhelming traffic was there for them.

It’s not that women’s soccer was totally absent from English culture. After all, the surprise hit film Bend It Like Beckham (2002) was literally about a women’s soccer team in London. But if you recall, 1) a major plot line was about Jess (Parminder Nagra), whose family didn’t want her to be playing the sport, and 2) “Success” for young women’s players meant earning a scholarship to play college soccer in the U.S. (since England didn’t have anything remotely like it).

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A transcendent cultural moment was happening, and so the stunned U.S. players shot video of something they had never seen before (albeit with old-school camcorders instead of cellphones). We all know where that monthlong American celebration ended: with a World Cup title before a crowd of 90,185 at the Rose Bowl.

England’s version of 1999 took place in 2022, and it culminated on Sunday with the Lionesses beating Germany 2-1 in extra time at Wembley Stadium. And in a perfect piece of symmetry, England forward Chloe Kelly celebrated her game-winning goal in the 111th minute by repeating what the U.S.’s Brandi Chastain did after her World Cup-clinching penalty kick in 1999: ripping off her jersey, twirling it over her head and celebrating in her sports bra with her teammates. (The automatic yellow card was, obviously, worth it.)

Over the last month, England fell irretrievably in love with its women’s soccer team. There’s nothing like being in a host country when it performs well in a major international soccer tournament. The national pride, the living and dying with every game, the spontaneous celebrations in bars and public squares—they take over a country’s daily culture. USA 1994, France 1998, USA 1999, South Korea 2002, Portugal 2004, Germany 2006, Brazil 2014, Russia 2018: All you have to do is say the country and the year, and it conjures some of the best memories I have of covering this sport. (I also remember the epic cultural sadness when those host countries went out of those tournaments; see: Brazil 2014.)

Now you can add England 2022. The images of the Lionesses’ six Euro games, all of them victories, will be imprinted on their supporters forever: The 68,871 fans who packed Man United’s Old Trafford for their opening 1-0 win over Austria; the stunning force of thrashing former World Cup champion Norway 8-0 (in a game that was 6-0 at halftime); the soul-stirring comeback against Spain in the quarterfinals to win 2-1 on Georgia Stanway’s thumping extra-time wonder strike; Alessia Russo’s outrageous backheel goal in a 4-0 semifinal win over Sweden; and the wild celebrations after Kelly’s winner against the Germans.

You can measure the country’s newfound passion in any number of ways. If you’re into data, the national TV audience in the U.K. peaked at a giant 17.4 million during Sunday’s final (with another audience almost the exact same size in Germany), and 87,192 fans filled Wembley—a record attendance for any game ever at a European Championship, men’s or women’s.

But there are other examples of how besotted Blighty became over the Lionesses. Like the way everyone stayed in the stadium for nearly an hour after the final whistle and sang “Sweet Caroline” with the England players, who performed running slip-and-slides on the massive piles of silver confetti on the field. It was as if nobody wanted to leave, and so they didn’t.

Or take the conversation I had before the game in the press section with a friend of mine, an English woman who has covered women’s soccer here for years. Knowing how hard she has been working, I asked her if she had taken the time to step back on Sunday and reflect on what we were seeing in front of us for an England women’s soccer game.

“Oh, don’t worry,” she said. “I’ve cried three times today already.”

As the fútbol-loving University of Michigan professor Andy Markovits has noted, women’s soccer has had a harder time breaking through in many of the biggest men’s soccer countries than it has had in nations like the United States or Scandinavian countries. 

England, in particular, has been notorious when it comes to the massive culture around men’s soccer denigrating the women’s game. (You still see and hear plenty of it, especially on social media.) As was the case in several other nations, England’s soccer federation, the FA, banned women from playing the sport for decades (from 1921 to 1968). 

I thought it was a good thing that the historical context was being publicized during this tournament; when you arrived at the train station in Sheffield, you were greeted by large signs with all the details of England’s women’s soccer ban and the way women defied that ban and attempted to build a soccer culture anyway.

But the official neglect of the women’s game in England made its mark. When I started covering soccer in 1996, I couldn’t believe that England’s team wasn’t any better than it was. The Lionesses didn’t even qualify for the World Cups in 1991, ’99 and 2003, and they didn’t advance past the final eight in ’95, ’07 or ’11. 

English talent did exist in those days. Kelly Smith was an attacking phenomenon who wasn’t appreciated nearly enough in her own country during her playing days. When Smith was at her best and not dealing with severe injuries during her NWSL and Arsenal days, she could be unstoppable.

(A quick Kelly Smith story: When she was drafted No. 2 overall out of Seton Hall by the NWSL’s Philadelphia Charge in 2001, I idiotically criticized the Charge for picking her that high. Not only did she prove me completely wrong, but she also later wrote in her memoir that my dumb comments had motivated her to succeed. When I finally met up with Kelly in person at the 2015 World Cup—we were working together for Fox Sports TV—I profusely apologized, and now I’m lucky to say we’re friends.)

It’s not that women’s soccer was totally absent from English culture. After all, the surprise hit film Bend It Like Beckham (2002) was literally about a women’s soccer team in London. But if you recall, (1) a major plot line was about Jess (Parminder Nagra), whose family didn’t want her to be playing the sport, and (2) “success” for young women’s players meant earning a scholarship to play college soccer in the U.S. (since England didn’t have anything remotely like that opportunity to play).

It’s still wild to me that U.S. soccer culture was in a place then that David Beckham, who was at the height of his global powers, became better known in the U.S. from that movie (which he wasn’t in) than from anything he had done on the soccer field to that point.

Still, Kelly Smith and Bend It Like Beckham were almost like one-offs when it came to women’s soccer culture in England. The national team was hardly considered world-class. But things have changed in the past decade since Team GB’s women drew big crowds for soccer at the 2012 London Olympics (while going out in the quarterfinals to Canada). Clubs like Chelsea, Arsenal, Manchester City and others have invested more in their women’s teams; sponsorship and television revenue has spiked; and the WSL has become the women’s league with the best depth of quality in Europe. England has made at least the semifinals of the last two women’s World Cups.

England’s women’s soccer talent is no longer a one-off proposition. In fact, the calling card of this England team was how many players could beat you. No fewer than nine Lionesses scored goals in England’s six victories: Lucy Bronze, Lauren Hemp, Kelly, Fran Kirby, Beth Mead (the golden boot winner with six strikes), Russo, Stanway, Ella Toone and Ellen White. It was the substitutions by England’s Dutch coach, Sarina Wiegman, that changed the game in Sunday’s final—in which both England goals were scored by subs. (Let it also be said that the assist from midfielder Keira Walsh on Toone’s opener on Sunday was an absolute thing of beauty.)

What happens now for England? How much will this Euro triumph change the culture here? That remains to be seen. The legacy of 1999 in the U.S. most definitely exists, but it hasn’t been linear; the NWSL seems to be here to stay after nine years, but it followed two pro leagues that each folded after three years. England’s WSL has an infrastructure, though, and the conditions are there for it to become the world’s best league if the investment continues to grow. And if that happens, it could become like the men’s Premier League, with the money and popularity to attract the majority of the world’s best players. We’ll soon find out if interest in the WSL gets a post-Euros boost.

As for the Lionesses, there’s a World Cup in just a year, and they will be among the favorites to raise the trophy. It certainly wouldn’t hurt if England and the U.S. (which has won the last two World Cups) built a rivalry at the top of the sport, since there was a real competitive edge to their game in the 2019 World Cup semifinals won by the USWNT.

Who knows? Maybe 2023 will end up being even bigger for England than 2022 has been. But there’s a reason why I think the growth of women’s soccer will be the biggest sports story of the next 50 years. One by one, country by country, more nations are going to have their 1999, or at least something close to it. The moment may happen at World Cups, or perhaps in continental championships like this one, and in some cases it may not even require them to win the trophy. 

What we saw here in England over the last month is how cultures change. And there’s no stopping this train now that it’s moving around the world.

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LONDON — England beat Germany 2-1 after extra-time in the Euro 2022 final here on Sunday before a Euro record crowd of 87,192 at Wembley Stadium. Here are my three thoughts on the game:

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• Chloe Kelly, meet history. At a moment when nearly the entirety of Wembley was dreading what might happen in a penalty-kick shootout (not usually England’s thing, especially against Germany), Kelly made sure they wouldn’t happen by scoring the game-winner during a goalmouth scramble after a corner kick. Kelly’s first shot was saved by German keeper Merle Frohms, but the Man City forward stuck with it and hit it home to send the crowd into raptures. Kelly celebrated by ripping off her shirt and running wildly toward her teammates in her sports bra, and anyone in the U.S. who was watching couldn’t help but think back to Brandi Chastain doing the same thing in 1999. As has been the case in much of the tournament, England’s depth ended up making a huge difference in the game. Kelly and fellow second-half sub Ella Toone scored both of England’s goals, and England was more dangerous after the subs started coming into the game. (If there had been another game, I would have wanted to see Alessia Russo start up front instead of Ellen White.) But if you’re Sarina Wiegman, England’s coach, who started the exact same lineup in all six Euro games, you could also argue that it’s a killer for your opponent when you can bring on players with the quality that England has. There are a lot of them for the deserved European champions.

• Germany missed Alexandra Popp. You hate to see any injury remove a player from a major final, but Germany losing Popp to a pregame warmup injury was especially cruel. Popp had scored in every game of this tournament, including both of Germany’s goals in the 2-1 semifinal win over France. Germany just wasn’t as dangerous in front of goal with Lea Schüller in Popp’s place, but there was more to it than that. Popp sets the tone for Germany with her hell-bent ruthlessness, constant energy and fear she strikes in opponents. She’s a big reason why Germany’s press is so effective, and it just wasn’t the same without her. (Surprisingly, England was the better pressing team on Sunday.) Popp had put in so much work to come back from injury and be arguably the most influential player of this tournament. The final was diminished without her.

• The referee could have done a better job to prevent an overly physical game. Frankly, I was surprised that Stéphanie Frappart of France, the world’s top female referee, didn’t get the final and the job was given instead to Kateryna Monzul of Ukraine. Unfortunately, Monzul didn’t do nearly enough early in the game to set the tone that rough-housing wouldn’t be allowed. Literally the first entry in my game notes from the second minute was: “Ref letting GER be physical early.” And it only continued from there. Monzul giving only three yellow cards in the first half—two of them to England!—while Germany was chippy the entire time was about three cards too few, and it was stunning that Germany’s Lena Oberdorf didn’t draw a yellow until the 57th minute. This game had too many instances of players ending up on the ground due to rough play, leading to too many stoppages, and while Germany deserved the majority of the blame for that, Monzul deserved some too.

What are your thoughts on the game? You can join the discussion in the comments below.

SHEFFIELD, England — Show up. Always, always show up.

It’s one of the basic messages I share when aspiring journalists ask if I have any career advice. (Another one: Ask questions you don’t know the answer to.) And you’re never sure exactly when you might be in a position to choose: Follow your own advice or violate it?

On Monday, a day after arriving in London to cover the final week of Euro 2022, I got an email from UEFA responding to my request for a media seat at the England-Sweden semifinal here in Sheffield on Tuesday. Understand, you can have an accreditation to cover the tournament (as I do), but you still have to apply separately for a media seat in the stadium. This was the response from UEFA:

The last sentence was there for a reason. Translation: Don’t even think of coming, because we’re not changing our minds.

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Look, I get it. There are only a small number of media seats at Sheffield United’s Bramall Lane, the 17th-largest soccer stadium in England, and a Euro semifinal involving England could easily have filled Wembley. Nor did it help that most of England’s big clubs begged off hosting Euro games in their stadiums. (Seriously, everyone, get with the program on women’s soccer.) As a result, even full-time women’s soccer reporters from outlets like The Telegraph couldn’t get media seats for England’s semifinal:

Would it have been better had organizers been more ambitious and put every Euro game in the biggest stadiums? Sure. That was the decision the U.S. architects of the 1999 women’s World Cup made (overruling FIFA’s hesitations) to their everlasting credit. The one positive of having the England semifinal in Sheffield (a two-and-a-half-hour train ride north from London) was that an area of the country that doesn’t get many huge games would finally have its chance.

But that didn’t help me get into the stadium on Tuesday. Truth be told, I thought about skipping the trip. It was the semifinal, not the final. What’s more, travel these days in Europe—even domestic train travel, which has been dealing with strikes this week—is a bit of a nightmare. And UEFA was saying: You really shouldn’t come. Plus I’m still not feeling great after finally getting Covid earlier this month, even though I’ve been testing negative for a week.

Then I heard that voice in my head: Show up. Always, always show up.

So I did. I ventured north from London on Tuesday, and my first stop was Bramall Lane, where I tried to at least get into the press workroom, even if I didn’t have a media seat inside the stadium. But no—a UEFA staffer on-site looked at a list and wouldn’t even let me do that. In a last-ditch effort, I emailed a friend at UEFA explaining my situation. He said he couldn’t guarantee anything but would see what he could do. And at 4:49 p.m., three hours before kickoff, I received an email:

Even better, I discovered upon entering the stadium that my freebie seat was in a VIP section at midfield right behind the England bench.

Over the years, I’ve had some amusing experiences in Europe being whipsawed between the cold shoulder and the VIP treatment. Sometimes club press offices just aren’t sure what to do with Americans. One time, in 2017, Manchester United simply refused to grant me a media seat for a Champions League game. Another time, in 2003, Man United arranged a one-on-one sit-down interview with Sir Alex Ferguson (who talked about his love for John Wayne movies) and gave me an amazing seat for the classic Champions League game the next day against Real Madrid. (OG Ronaldo had a hat trick and got a standing ovation from the Old Trafford fans upon leaving the game.)

Some gatekeepers just don’t like Americans. I’ll never forget the French media head for the 1998 World Cup standing above the seated Sports Illustrated writer Steve Rushin and flicking cigarette ashes on his head while saying, “You Americans are so arrogant.” Steve, who had simply been one minute late to pick up his media ticket for USA-Germany, was ready to fight the guy after initially being refused his ticket and receiving an ash shower.

But some gatekeepers love Americans, even in Paris. When I visited a Paris Saint-Germain game in 2013, the club didn’t put me in the media section but rather in the VIP area, where they introduced me to Roberto Mancini and I sat next to former French president Nicolas Sarkozy. (I never got around to asking Sarkozy why he doomed the U.S.’s bid to host World Cup 2022 by asking Michel Platini to vote for Qatar over the United States.)

You never know who you’re going to run into in a VIP area. And so it was great news that the first person I saw in mine on Tuesday night was Bibiana Steinhaus-Webb, the refereeing pioneer and the first woman to referee in the men’s German Bundesliga. Last year I wrote a story about her and her husband, the former English referee Howard Webb. Bibi, who seems to know everybody in the soccer world, gave me a big hug on Tuesday and asked to take a selfie.

And wouldn’t you know it? The seats next to me were taken by USWNT coach Vlatko Andonovski and his assistants Twila Kilgore and Philip Poole, fresh off winning the CONCACAF championship, who are at the Euros scouting potential opponents at next year’s World Cup. I was just hoping to be one of the 28,000-plus people to get inside the stadium—and I ended up sitting next to the USWNT coaching staff.

Ultimately, the game itself was plenty enough to make for a memorable evening. Sweden controlled much of the first 25 minutes, but England took over and pulled away for an emphatic 4-0 victory—punctuated by Alessia Russo’s ridiculous backheel goal through the wickets of Swedish goalkeeper Hedvig Lindahl.

I’m planning to tell more of England’s story around the final, which has an off-the-hook buzz in this country ahead of the Sunday’s game in Wembley. But we’re a site that likes to serve USWNT fans, so I thought it would be good to hear Andonovski’s impressions of what he’s seeing here, and he said he’d be happy to connect with me for an interview on Wednesday afternoon.

All of it was a helpful reminder, even when you feel it might be hopeless: Show up. Always, always show up.

For Vlatko Andonovski, scouting the Euros as the coach of the two-time-defending World Cup champion USWNT is a little like Renoir slipping in to check out the latest Monet exhibition. But the World Cup is just a year away, and for Andonovski and his staff it’s important that they show up, too, to see things in their toughest opponents that aren’t always easy to detect on a video screen. That’s why they came here for the Euro quarterfinals through the final immediately after the U.S. won the recent CONCACAF W Championship in Mexico—and why they sent three scouts to the Euros to have someone at every single game of the tournament.

“It’s very important to see it in person, because the feeling of the pace, the intensity of the game, is a little bit different,” Andonovski told me on Wednesday. “On top of that, you see behavior of certain players that sometimes is not easy to see on camera. That’s why it’s important for us to feel the rhythm of the game, and to see the little details as well.”

When we talked at halftime of Tuesday’s semifinal, Andonovski said he was pleased with the U.S.’s overall performance in its 1-0 win over Canada in the CONCACAF final, even though he would have loved to see his team finish more of its scoring chances. But the fact remains that it’s hard to compare the CONCACAF tournament (with two teams in the top 25 of the FIFA rankings) and the UEFA championship (with six teams in the global top eight).

“That’s one of the reasons why [the Euros] is just of a little better quality,” said Andonovski. “Unfortunately, in CONCACAF there are only two in the top 10, and you can add other teams, but still it’s not the same as the top six teams [in UEFA].”

All things considered, any of those six European teams—England, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain and Sweden—are capable of ending the U.S.’s World Cup reign next year. And so I asked Andonovski if he could share his quick-take opinions on each of them.

England: “One thing that was interesting was the precision they had, how few mistakes they made in possession regardless of which part of the field they were in. They were very precise in the buildup and did not lose the ball, and also their confidence on the ball as well. I thought the three midfielders—Keira Walsh, Georgia Stanway and Fran Kirby—were really composed on the ball and were able to break lines in different ways, whether it was with the pass, the run or the dribble.”

France: “One thing that stood out to me for France was the individual quality of each player on the field, and ability to win individual battles anywhere on the field.”

Germany: “Very meticulous, very intense in their press and super hard-working. One thing with them is they’ll always find a way to score a goal.”

The Netherlands: “They were hit with couple misfortunes: Covid first, and then injury with Lieke Martens. I think they had to change some things throughout the tournament and become more of a grinder team than they have been before. Partially, it could be because of the mentality of the coach [Mark Parsons], but it could be because they were forced to do that. They ground out a result against Sweden, which I thought was a good comeback result early on in the tournament, and had to grind out results in different games. That was positive, I think, for the Netherlands. They’re a good team, and when they don’t go through some of those unfortunate events, I think they are going to be even better.”

Spain: “[The injury to star Alexia Putellas] was unfortunate, obviously. Even though they’re not in the semifinals, I think Spain’s true colors showed in the quarterfinal against England [a 2-1 loss], where I thought they played a tremendous game, but it was just unfortunate they didn’t score another goal to put the game away. That’s where England came out big and took full advantage of a couple opportunities they had.”

Sweden: “They were very physical, and their box entries are really dominant. They get in the box different ways, whether through a longball pass or a set play. Anytime they get in the box, they’re very dangerous.”

With 12 months to go before Australia/New Zealand, Andnovski and his staff are more concerned for now with their big-picture impressions of the teams they’re seeing. Which is to say he didn’t have any details to contribute on weaknesses in any of the teams here. “We’re not that close to World Cup to look for specific strengths and weaknesses. It’s an overall evaluation of the teams,” he explained. “As we’re getting closer to the World Cup is when we start narrowing down more details and more specifics.”

During the tournament in Mexico, Andonovski did say that the U.S. team might not be ready for the World Cup right now, but it most definitely will be in a year. So I asked him here what he was hoping to see that’s different then.

“The biggest thing now for us is just to synchronize the lines, the players and the players’ movements a little bit better,” he told me. “We’re at the point where we can clarify or crystallize the starting 11, or maybe players that we play together a little bit more going forward. With simple words, it’s just getting on the same page.”

Despite all the work he’s doing, Andonovski is also a soccer fan. And so he can’t help but be captivated like the rest of us who are seeing the enthusiasm here for the Euros. It can’t help but get you—and him—fired up for the World Cup.

“We’re watching games like [England-Sweden] in front of a full stadium, and that’s what it’s all about,” he said. “It’s about the big event, it’s about good the crowd, it’s about a good environment. Yeah, we’re certainly looking forward to [the World Cup].”

In a summer of non-stop travel, Andonovski is off to Costa Rica soon for the CONCACAF Under-20 tournament, but not until after he attends Sunday’s England-Germany final in a sold-out Wembley. As we signed off on Wednesday, I told him I’d see him at the final. I’ve applied for a media seat, but even if I don’t get one, I’ve already got another alternative lined up. You wouldn’t think I’d miss it, would you?

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The USWNT beat Canada 1-0 on a 78th-minute penalty by Alex Morgan to win the CONCACAF W Championship and earn the U.S. an automatic berth in the 2024 Olympics. (Canada will meet Jamaica in a playoff for the other CONCACAF Olympic spot.) The U.S. win avenged last year’s 1-0 Olympic semifinal loss to the Canadians. Here are my three thoughts on the game:

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• Morgan came up big in the game’s deciding moment. Morgan delivered a terrific spot kick past her San Diego Wave club teammate, Canadian goalkeeper Kailen Sheridan, to put the U.S. ahead on the only goal either team has conceded in the entire tournament. But that wasn’t Morgan’s only part in the penalty sequence. It was Morgan whose weighted pass put Rose Lavelle free in the box, where she was clipped by Allysha Chapman and fell to the turf. Morgan was sharp in this game from the start and should have had an assist a few minutes earlier in the second half when her ace through-ball found Sophia Smith, who somehow managed to shoot wide on an open Canadian goal. For Morgan, this game was personal. She was one of the few U.S. players on this team who had been on the field during Canada’s win over the U.S. during the Olympics. That loss had been crushing. And while this occasion wasn’t as big as that one, it still is an important win for the U.S. to reestablish control of CONCACAF after Canada’s gold medal last year.

• Vlatko Andonovski got a big win here too. If the U.S. had lost this game, Andonovski would have kept his job, but he most certainly would have been on the hot seat after two straight important losses to the Canadians. But the truth is this was the U.S.’s best performance of the tournament by far, and Andonovski deserves some credit for that. The U.S. came out on a mission and probably should have scored in the opening 15 minutes given the chances the Americans had. But Canada fought back and had its own dangerous attacking moments in the first half, often through Nichelle Prince working against Sofia Huerta. Those Canadian chances diminished in the second half, however, as the U.S. asserted control and deserved the advantage that came its way. Does Andonovski have a lot to figure out in the next year before the World Cup? Sure. A lot of that has to do with the return of some important players, including Catarina Macario, Crystal Dunn, Sam Mewis, Julie Ertz, Tierna Davidson and perhaps others. But beating Canada with a solid performance in a final is Andonovski’s biggest moment since taking the job.

• Work needs to be done over the next year. If the U.S. is going to win a third straight World Cup, there are several areas that need to be worked on. There needs to be more willingness in the attack to take defenders on 1v1 and less settling for lumping aimless crosses into the box. The central midfield needs to find more creativity than we saw in this tournament, and a Mewis or Ertz type (even if it’s Mewis or Ertz herself) needs to reestablish control as a defensive mid. (Andi Sullivan just didn’t bring enough this tournament.) Mal Pugh and Smith are phenomenal wingers but need to get more clinical in the moments that count the most. Is Naomi Girma a starting centerback next year? I think so. But there’s a lot of talent in the U.S. pool as well, and it’s certainly possible that a third straight World Cup run can be made.

What are your thoughts? You can join the discussion in the comments below.

My first interview with Julie Foudy was in (yikes) 1996. Twenty-six years ago! We’re a bit older and wiser these days—or at least a bit older—and I’m always fired up to speak to her. There’s some good stuff below!

The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is the gold standard. Julie Foudy of ESPN joins us now. She was episode number two of our podcast. Two years later, she is now episode number 242.

Julie Foudy:

Wow.

Grant Wahl:

You can hear her on her podcast, Laughter Permitted, and watch her on ESPN's wall-to-wall coverage of Euro 2022.

Julie Foudy:

242 episodes, Grant?

Grant Wahl:

Yeah. It's great to see you. How are you? Thanks for coming on the show.

Julie Foudy:

Look at you, 242 in. That's impressive.

Grant Wahl:

It's kind of incredible, but when you do two episodes a week and you do it every week, they pile up eventually.

Julie Foudy:

I know. It’s so good, too. They're really good. You're doing great stuff.

Julie Foudy on the USWNT: “I feel like there's so much creativity in that young group that we just haven't been able as a country to put together yet. I think there's a tremendous upside to that younger group, for sure. We've seen it in Sophia Smith, and Mal Pugh, and Ashley Sánchez, and you go down the list of all the potential with that younger group. But it's not there yet. That movement isn't there, that continuity isn't there. Even just the speed of play and the pace and the pressing, and I know it's been hot. So it's easy for me to say in an air-conditioned room that they're not pressing enough. I know it's been really hot. But it just feels like there's a lot of tinkering still, and we're not yet getting the best out of those players.”

Grant Wahl:

Thank you. It's great to see you. We're recording this on Saturday, coming out Monday morning. The Euros are in full swing. You are all over it. What has stood out to you so far about this tournament?

Julie Foudy:

Oh, gosh. How many days do we have? Well, most recent, Norway's collapse. When was the last time we've seen a Norway team without any bite, any mentality? It's like, wow, what happened to the Norway of old? You used to walk away completely battered and bruised after those games, and that was a different team. So they're a disappointment. On a positive note, Germany, their resurgence with this group, I thought they’ve looked excellent. They haven't won a Euros by their standards in forever, because it's been almost a decade, and they have won more than anyone else, of course, eight, six in a row leading into, well, up to 2013.

So I thought Germany's looked excellent. I think England and France are your other two teams I think that are the favorites. So England of course seems to be handling the pressure well. We'll see when they go into the quarterfinal phase what that will mean. But France, with all the discussion about them being a hot mess and so much controversy surrounding their team with their coach, Diacre, and some of her antics, they seem to be playing well and looking good.

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Grant Wahl:

It's interesting, right? I'm just really enjoying having the opportunity to watch this entire tournament on ESPN platforms, because we really haven't had that opportunity before. How important is it to you that ESPN has made the decision to cover this tournament this way?

Julie Foudy:

Huge, huge. Because obviously we've seen the energy and effort we put in behind the men's tournament, and particularly men's Euros. Obviously ESPN doesn't have the World Cup anymore, but yeah, it was a big thing that we brought up. I said, "Look, we can't be doing all of this for the men and nothing for the women. We need to show our commitment to the women's side of this." So Amy Rosenfeld, before she left ESPN, was great in pushing it and pushing it and pushing it as well.

And then all of a sudden it was like, "Okay, Julie. Guess what? Your wish came true. Not only are we covering it, we're covering 25 of the 31 games, and you're spending all month here." But it's necessary. It's historical what's happening, the numbers that are coming, the attendance, the chance for England to finally possibly win their first major tournament. So I'm super proud of ESPN and the effort they've put into this.

Grant Wahl:

How much fun are you having with people like Emma Hayes, and Steffi Jones, and that whole group?

Julie Foudy:

What we say every day is, "We sit by our fire pit and do our nightcap." Literally every night we're together, and it's perfect timing with the games. Because you're off-air by like 5:30, and you have all evening. So it's so much fun. Emma and Steffi are characters. Emma is constantly entertaining around the fire pit, and I get to see all these old teammates of mine that I played with. So it's been really fun, and it's just a good group of humans who care deeply about the sport. So it's been a ton of fun. That's really what we should be filming.

Grant Wahl:

There should be, yeah, like on ESPN8, like a constant show.

Julie Foudy:

Right, a live cam of the fireside chats.

Grant Wahl:

How do you feel about this idea that Europe maybe hasn't just closed the gap with the U.S.? Because we're going to get to the U.S. in a second and what's going on there, but that maybe Europe has passed the U.S. in this whole discussion here. What's going on in Europe in your opinion, and where are they in relation to the U.S.? And is that a little unfair considering that the U.S. isn't in the exact same position right now as they prepare for the World Cup?

Julie Foudy:

Yeah. They're rebuilding, and they realize they have some time. They still have a year for that. But I will say that the football you're seeing from Europe on the women's side, and the numbers and the attention, and not just in England, I mean, we're seeing it all over the place in Europe, is fantastic to see. And I think the reason you see it is because these large clubs, these huge global brands, are driving it.

For many years I thought the driving force of women's football would be FIFA mandating to these federations, but that's not it at all. Right? What we're seeing is the biggest growth factor is because these big clubs are finally investing in a women's game. So there's better games, there's better training, there's clearly more professionalism across the board around Europe, and that has wonderful consequences. Because you have players who are training against the best every day, who are playing against the best, there's more parity within the leagues as well. So it's absolutely the money from a lot of these big clubs, I think, that has driven this really important step forward for Europe in terms of women's soccer.

Grant Wahl:

Where does the U.S. fit into that? Because it's not like the NWSL is standing still, and most of the U.S. players still play in the NWSL. Is this a rising tide that lifts all boats? Is it more of a positive than a concern for you when it comes to where the U.S. fits in?

Julie Foudy:

Oh, it'll always be a positive when you see more pockets around the world embracing and celebrating women playing. That is absolutely a positive. I think it's tough for NWSL because there's just so much competition in the marketplace. That was never the case with obviously the old iterations of women's pro leagues in the United States. Maybe you could argue in the second league WPS there was the start of Europe coming in and stealing our market of players. But now you've got a player who ... Imagine like a Grace Geyoro from France who plays at PSG. She's got so many clubs coming after her. Look at the young Haitian player, her last name escapes me, but ...

Grant Wahl:

Dumornay.

Julie Foudy:

Dumornay, thank you. 50 clubs is what I heard them say on the telecast after her. So it's clearly something that has become more challenging to sign the best players. Before, everyone wanted to come to the United States, and now you're seeing with all these enormous clubs and the facilities they have, and the backing they're getting for the women's side ... And I still think we're just scratching the surface of that. I think that's going to just keep growing exponentially. It makes sense they want to stay in Europe, or they want to go to Barcelona, or they want to play for Lyon. So it's going to be a challenge, for sure, for NWSL going forward.

Grant Wahl:

So we've got the CONCACAF women's championship going on. It's U.S.A-Canada in the final on Monday. What's your sense of the U.S. performance in this tournament?

Julie Foudy:

Eh ... That's how I feel about it right now. Eh ... That's what I always say. It's like, ugh, it's a little bit ... I don't know. I feel like there's so much creativity in that young group that we just haven't been able as a country to put together yet, the United States. I think there's a tremendous upside to that younger group, for sure. We've seen it in Sophia Smith, and Mal Pugh, and Ashley Sánchez, and you go down the list of all the potential with that younger group. But it's not there yet. That movement isn't there, that continuity isn't there. Even just the speed of play and the pace and the pressing, and I know it's been hot. So it's easy for me to say in an air-conditioned room that they're not pressing enough. I know it's been really hot.

But it just feels like there's a lot of tinkering still, and we're not yet getting the best out of those players. But having said that, I do think it was a necessary page to turn in terms of going younger, and that as we know is never easy as you introduce a lot of young 20-something year-olds into the mix. But I do think this Canada game will be a great test for them in terms of where they're at. So I'm excited to see that.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah, me too. When the World Cup comes around in a year, what do you think the U.S. roster will look like? I think of some names that aren't involved right now for reasons of injury or pregnancy. Crystal Dunn, Sam Mewis, Julie Ertz, Christen Press, Tobin Heath. How many of those players do you think will be on that squad?

Julie Foudy:

It's a great question. I think more of that middle group versus the veteran group. So the veteran group I see that's a little bit older is Christen Press, Tobin Heath. I think they're on the outside looking in, and obviously with Press's injury, I think probably the window for 2023 is gone, unfortunately for her. For a player like Julie Ertz, that's the middle group I have always considered. So mid to late 20s, actually probably more like late 20s now. So Julie Ertz, Sam Mewis, Crystal Dunn, I think those three are very much in the picture.

Because if they can show that they can get back ... Every time Vlatko talks about the team, he talks about the importance of those three to this past team and how he's eager to see where they're at. But I think Sam Mewis's knee injury is very concerning. It's just not getting better. So I worry about that more than I worry about Ertz and Dunn getting back into shape. And of course if Ertz is going to play her club soccer at the great Angel City, we shall see ... I don't know what that means for her if she doesn't, because Vlatko has said repeatedly he wants them to perform first at the club level. So maybe he makes an exception for her, but I don't see that. I think she's going to have to play at the club level.

Grant Wahl:

You mentioned Angel City. You're an owner of this team. How much are you enjoying this process of going to Angel City games, seeing what that club is doing, and all the success they're having?

Julie Foudy:

I will tell you, Grant, because when we go to games, typically we as journalists, we're working. Right? I'm either calling a game, I'm covering a game, I'm reporting on a game. And I go to Angel City games, I have a big old drink before the game starts, I don't have to worry about any work. Literally I'm hanging out with all my teammates, right? We're all owners. There's 14 of us that are owners. It's a huge reunion every time there's a home game. It's an incredible ownership group that's a ton of fun, and it's just a blast.

Even my kids. My kids are begging to go to games with me, and my kids are teenagers. No teenagers beg to hang with their parents. It's the only time I can get them to hang with me. So we literally cart up like seven people every game, the kids and their friends, and it's just so much fun. So that has been a joy that really I feel lucky to be a part of, because it's just such a neat group of awesome women and awesome owners. And really they just think differently, which is so nice and I think so needed.

Grant Wahl:

It's really cool to see. It is fun for me sometimes to actually go as a fan to a game and not be working, and, "Oh wait, you can drink a beer, and actually this is fun."

Julie Foudy:

Imagine. I don't have to completely lock in the whole time. Our section is starting the wave every time. It's so fun. It literally is like, Mia is behind me, Abby is to my left, Shannon Boxx has seats right here. We all sit together as well. Tisha is to my right, Venturini. So it's really fun.

Grant Wahl:

That's really cool. I want to ask you also about the Julie Foudy Sports Leadership Academy, because I know you had this happen again fairly recently, and it seems really cool. Can you explain what it is?

Julie Foudy:

Yeah. We've been doing that ever since I retired from playing. I always just felt like, gosh, why aren't we teaching young women also about not just how to kick a soccer ball, or we do basketball and lacrosse as well ... To play their sport, but really the gift of sports is we're creating better human beings who go back into their communities and give back, and are positive leaders in their community. And for a lot of young women, even the best athletes, they lack that confidence to raise their hand, or get out of their comfort zone, or take that step forward, or take a risk. So it's a lot of really fun, high-energy leadership training and sports of course together. We merge the two. I can't believe I've been doing it for, this was our 17th summer, I think, of doing it.

The last few years we've had this really cool addition of the State Department. They have this great Sports Diplomacy program, which you've probably heard about because a lot of athletes travel abroad, and we do this exchange with athletes, us sending athletes to them. Like Brandi and I did a week in Brazil once, and they go all over the world, but they bring athletes to us. So they brought 65 girls from 13 different countries. So Bolivia, Liberia, Brazil, Georgia, you just go down the list. It's crazy. Bangladesh. It's really cool.

Grant Wahl:

Speaking of leadership, I wanted to ask you about U.S. Soccer President Cindy Parlow Cone. Back in the day I would've guessed that if any ‘99er would someday become U.S. Soccer President, it would be you.

Julie Foudy:

No one wishes that. (laughs)

Grant Wahl:

But I recently wrote a column saying that Cindy has become a historical figure in U.S. Soccer with the equal-pay agreement especially. What do you think of how she's done in that position?

Julie Foudy:

I think she's absolutely crushing it. I'm so incredibly proud of her, because this was not a position she sought out either. This vice-president position, and then when Carlos gets let go ... Fired, resigned, however you want to say it, basically let go, she has to step in and fill this leadership void, and she has been tremendous. It's not surprising, honestly. I know she wasn't the one in the middle of the huddle pounding her chest, roaring like a lion to get the team going. She was quieter. But the thing you always knew about Cindy is she's so steady. Her integrity and her moral compass in terms of just good intentions and doing the right things is as good as I've seen in any human. And then on top of that, she's willing to make tough decisions, and quickly.

And that's hard for a lot of people stepping into that leadership position and running a federation as large and successful as this one. Yet she knows what's needed and is willing to make the hard decisions and act quickly. I think when you combine all those traits, it makes for great leadership, and she's trying to rebuild a culture within the federation that obviously is more inclusive and supports the women and all these things that have been a challenge in the past that she gets because she's lived it. So the importance of having a player as well in that role can't be understated.

Grant Wahl:

I wanted to ask you about the equal-pay agreement. Because we did a podcast series, I guess it was 2019, where I interviewed you extensively, but also a bunch of other players from the '91 World Cup-winning team and the U.S. teams from the '90s. And you spoke in great, compelling detail about how difficult it was with U.S. Soccer in those days basically ever since. And now this equal-pay deal has finally happened. How do you feel about that when you look back at your entire experience with all of this?

Julie Foudy:

Well, it's not surprising that it happens under Cindy, being, as I just said, a past player who gets it, and also being a woman who understands the battle and the fight that's gone and raged on for a long time, and the frustration around that. I think that helps, because the players knew that she understood it and could trust that her intentions were there in the right place. So I think that helps get it over that finish line, which we know has been a long time coming.

So we, the 99ers group and the Old Bag thread that we have, we're doing a lot of celebration. Frustration that it took so long, but celebration that we're finally there, and really there. You have a lot of federations who say, "Oh, we're offering equal pay," and I'm like, "Nah." Equal percentage of a bonus that's $400 million and equal percentage of a bonus that then is $40 million for the women is not equal pay. That's very different, and they're all saying that. I'm like, no, Cindy knew the big elephant in the room was the difference in prize money from FIFA, and literally said to both teams, "I am not signing a contract until this gets equalized. We will not sign a contract until the FIFA money gets sorted. So you guys sit down and figure it out."

And they did, and I give a ton of credit to the men as well, because I know that wasn't an easy decision as well. And I wish in the end now that we really are one team, one nation finally for the first time, that now we can tackle this together, the men and the women, and go after FIFA and say, "That gap needs to change in terms of the pay," and obviously you need to support the women more. And now we have the men, when they do well, the women are celebrating, and when the women do well, the men are celebrating because everyone is reaping that reward and you're getting a piece of it. And that's really something we should have done long ago. We should have all been on the same page in terms of sharing the pot.

Grant Wahl:

We're wrapping up here with Julie Foudy. I do want to ask you about FIFA a little bit, though, because there's still discussion. I had Alex Morgan for an interview just last week, and she's on this committee that Jill Ellis runs for FIFA that is still actively considering whether the women's World Cup should be every two years. I'm kind of torn on that one. I didn't want to see the men's World Cup go to once every two years, but I'm not ready to rule out the idea of a women's World Cup every two years if you make that change. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on that possibility.

Julie Foudy:

I don't love it. I think the calendar is already busy enough. I think it also diminishes the importance of the World Cup being on that quadrennial cycle. So I think it would be a challenge. How do you fit that in with the Euros as well? And with the club and Champions League competitions we're seeing, I'd rather see a club World Cup than every other year. And the challenge of course for FIFA is for those countries that don't do a lot of programming, is trying to create more programming.

I still think you can get there, and these countries are all seeing that there's all this money being left on the table, honestly, and we know how money moves things ... That hey, there's this untapped potential that you can see the countries who are getting it are tapping into it. Look at the transformation in Spain. I would not have predicted that even five years ago, and how quickly that country is supporting it. We obviously see the growth and support there and how well they're doing. But I just think it's asking too much of the players, and I don't think in the end you get the benefits of more competition. I just think it dilutes actually the World Cup for women, and I think we need the World Cup for women to be this global event that really is transformational in nature.

Grant Wahl:

And obviously the World Cup is a year away. ESPN doesn't have the tournament. Will you be there? How will that work for you?

Julie Foudy:

I'll be there I'm sure in some capacity. I don't know yet how or what I'll be doing. But yeah, I'll be there, for sure. I wouldn't miss that. Especially, I'm trying to sell that I should be in New Zealand and Australia prepping all of this for a good six months with the whole family. So I'm going to need all of 2023 to investigate the stadiums! That's going to be a good one. That's going to be a ton of fun.

Grant Wahl:

Julie Foudy is covering the Euros right now with ESPN. Julie, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Julie Foudy:

Thanks, Grant.

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While I was in Monterrey, Mexico, last week to cover the CONCACAF W Championship, I sat down for an interview with Mia Fishel. The U.S. forward was drafted No. 5 overall in last year’s NWSL draft by Orlando, but she decided to sign instead with Tigres. I always find people who take the road less traveled to be fascinating, and I enjoyed our conversation here.

The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

Grant Wahl:

Our interview guest today here in Monterrey, Mexico is Mia Fishel, the forward for Tigres, who played in college at UCLA. Mia, it's great to have you with me. Thanks for coming on the show.

Mia Fishel:

Thanks for having me.

Grant Wahl:

Lots to talk about here. We're actually in Monterrey for the CONCACAF tournament. This is, as I'm told, the women's soccer capital of Mexico. So much success over the years with Tigres, with Monterrey. How would you describe what the support of women's soccer is like here in this city? What makes it special?

“I had to turn down the [recent U.S.] U-23 national team camp because I had a grade-three 17 centimeters tear in my hamstring. So I was able to heal quickly. We had an MRI, I think two and a half weeks, three weeks later, and it went down to two centimeters. So they're like, ‘I don't know why, your body's like supernatural or what,’ but it got better every single day. And we took it slowly. I did my therapy, and I was able to play as you saw in the last [Tigres] game.” — Mia Fishel

Mia Fishel:

I mean, it's huge. The fan base is, I guess, the first thing that kind of hit me strong. I mean, if you have a strong fan base, that is equivalent to how much support there is in women's soccer. I get stopped in restaurants, in the mall, everywhere, just asking for autographs, asking for pictures, videos, I mean, you name it. Like, everywhere I go I have to be on my toes because someone is most likely going to run into me and ask for something.

As well as from the club, just the equality in the men's and the women's, just using the same facilities, the staff is on it, and that's just like a true test to how they see women's soccer and where we're going.

Grant Wahl:

What have you learned about your club, Tigres, in your time with the team so far?

Mia Fishel:

Just professionalism. I mean, that's all I can really say about that. The attention to detail from our staff, making sure I got here safely, got here feeling welcomed, and that's how I felt coming here. That's just how the staff is. So it's cool.

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Grant Wahl:

I guess one thing I'd be curious to know is how did you learn that Tigres was interested in you?

Mia Fishel:

So, I mean, I talked to my agent about my other options, and there were multiple offers from Europe, from Mexico. Tigres came with the strongest offer, the strongest interest with like a 30-minute presentation on how they see me fit into the team, what I can bring, what they liked about me. That's like the main reason why I came to Tigres is because I felt my worth and what I deserved with how I play as a person. So Tigres came on really strong and that's kind of why I landed here.

Grant Wahl:

Recently here, Carmelina Moscato was named the new coach of Tigres. She's Canadian, you're American. Is this a club that is wanting to get more of an international flavor beyond a Mexican flavor?

Mia Fishel:

Yes, I think so. And I think any league benefits from multiple perspectives of the game, their background. I mean, I love it so much because every country has a different perspective and a different idea of what the game is. So hearing that Carmelina was going to come from Canada, and I have teammates who come from Canada and just talked so highly of Carmelina, I was super excited to start to get to work with her.

Grant Wahl:

You're just getting going with the season, so what have you learned about her as a coach and what she wants from y'all?

Mia Fishel:

She's amazing. She cares about each player as their own individual. She brought structure, she brought a motivation that we didn't have in the past. I can tell that she's very intelligent in the game as a player, as a coach, as an analyst for the FIFA World Cup. I mean, she comes with a lot of weight, and I think the team is very appreciative and super happy to get to work with her.

Grant Wahl:

I know that the rules in the league are currently two non-Mexican players per team. Recently, it was pretty noticeable, Jenni Hermoso from Barcelona signed with Pachuca. Do you see more of those types of signings in this league as a whole? And do you think there's a chance they may change the rules to allow for more than two internationals per team?

Mia Fishel:

Yeah. Jenni Hermoso coming to this league is huge. I mean, it's huge for this league because of the player that she is coming from Barcelona, top goalscorer. I mean, who doesn't want a type of player like her in their league? I think players like her and me are starting to realize how quickly this league is growing, and I think it's coming from their passion.

Mexico is, I would say, probably the most emotional, the most supportive country on soccer and female soccer in general. And you can see the numbers, how many viewers are watching the game, how it's being broadcast, like I said, the interactions with other players. It's huge, and I think that it will lead to the league expanding their numbers of non-Mexican players, soccer players coming to the league because it makes the league grow.

Grant Wahl:

Couple other questions here. How would you just say, you've been here for a little over a year, how have things gone for you personally so far?

Mia Fishel:

Personally, it's been going really good. I think it's a big kudos to my teammates. As soon as I got here, they made me feel like family. They still do. Every single one of them are great people. They love soccer as much as I do. So I really can't complain on living here as well.

The food here is amazing. I love Mexican food. I'm from San Diego, so I'm used to the food here, and I like the switch-up. I'm from the beach, and being around mountains is different, but I'm starting to enjoy it and starting to enjoy my teammates taking me places around here in Monterrey.

Grant Wahl:

How's your Spanish?

Mia Fishel:

It's getting there. It's getting better. I actually had my first Spanish class with Carmelina and Owen, who's our trainer, on Tuesday, so I'm excited to formally know Spanish. I've definitely learned words from my teammates and sentences, so it'll be cool to actually learn from a teacher.

Grant Wahl:

We can see your games in the United States, the level of the league is growing and growing. Do you feel like you can still be in the U.S. national team picture by playing here?

Mia Fishel:

Yeah. I one hundred percent agree, because me and my agent have talked to national team coaches. That was our main issue coming to Mexico was we don't know how they're going to feel about that. So we made sure that me coming to Mexico, me playing in this league wouldn’t affect me playing with the U.S. women's national team. I got the go-ahead, so that's why I'm here as well.

Grant Wahl:

And I did notice, I mean, here in journalist land we'll ask coaches and stuff and we asked Vlatko [Andonovski], like, "Are you considering bringing in Mia Fishel for this camp?" He said you were injured, and then you've been playing for your club. Is that accurate?

Mia Fishel:

Yeah, it was accurate. I had to turn down the U-23 national team camp because I had a grade three 17 centimeters tear in my hamstring.

Grant Wahl:

Oh, god.

Mia Fishel:

So I was able to heal quickly. I don't know. We had an MRI, I think two and a half weeks, three weeks later, and it went down to two centimeters. So they're like, "I don't know why, your body's like supernatural or what," but it got better every single day. And we took it slowly, and I did do my rehab. I did my therapy, and I was able to play as you guys saw in the last game.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah. I mean, you were recording this on Sunday. I think we're coming out on Thursday, so it’ll be a couple days' gap. Is it in any way weird that the U.S. team is here right now?

Mia Fishel:

Super weird. I just got here and now the U.S. women's national team is here and Canada, Mexico, I mean, everyone's here. So it's weird seeing my UCLA teammates here, and they get to experience where I am, which is a really cool thing.

Grant Wahl:

Did any of them ask for tips on Monterrey before they came down here?

Mia Fishel:

Not yet. It makes sense because being with their national team is like very strict, so I get that they're in their own bubble. And it's a tournament, so I know they’ve got to stay ready.

Grant Wahl:

I know you've probably got big goals in your career: club, national team. What do you want to achieve in your career?

Mia Fishel:

I mean, I've said this like a bunch of times, but I want to be the best soccer player in the world. I want to be considered that by the time me and soccer are no longer together. My dream, obviously, is to be with the U.S. women's national team. That's always been a dream. They're the best in the world and I know one day I'll get there. I do also want to play in Europe because I love their soccer. I love how they play, and that'll be a dream as well, playing over there.

Grant Wahl:

Mia Fishel is a forward for Tigres here in Monterrey, Mexico. Congratulations on what you're doing. Good luck. Thanks for coming on the show.

Mia Fishel:

Thank you. I appreciate it.

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The USWNT beat Costa Rica 3-0 on goals by Emily Sonnett, Mal Pugh and Ashley Sánchez in the semifinals of the CONCACAF qualifying tournament for the World Cup and Olympics on Monday night. The win put the U.S. in Monday’s final against the winner of Canada-Jamaica. Here are my three thoughts on the game:

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• Rose Lavelle had a filthy backheel. The U.S. was absolutely lacking in invention in Monday’s lackluster 1-0 win against Mexico, and a big reason was the absence of Lavelle—easily the team’s most creative midfielder—from the starting lineup. With the score 1-0 late in the first half, a successful U.S. counter-press by Sophia Smith forced a turnover deep in the Costa Rica end, and Lavelle instinctively backheeled to Pugh, who finished well for her first goal of the tournament. Lavelle brings something special to this U.S. midfield that’s unique to her, and when teams like Costa Rica are defending deep it’s even more important to have someone who’s willing and able to pull off a remarkable bit of skill in tight space at speed. For Pugh, too, her finish was hard-earned for a player who has been active during this tournament but had been frustrated by her inability to find the net. This U.S. team may be a work in progress, but I don’t think there’s much debate right now that Pugh and Smith should be the starting wingers.

• This U.S. team would struggle right now against a number of teams in the Euros. I fully understand that the U.S. right now is still trying to find the right combinations and isn’t attempting to peak for this tournament in the same way that teams are for Euro 2022. But it’s inescapable when you watch games from both tournaments at the same time that the U.S. would struggle right now against the current versions of England, France, Germany and perhaps Sweden and the Netherlands. U.S. coach Vlatko Andonovski said on Monday that his team wasn’t ready today to play a World Cup but that it “absolutely” would be a year from now. Perhaps, but even with the U.S. controlling the game against Costa Rica from the start, and even if we allow that there are just two elite teams in CONCACAF (the U.S. and Canada), I’m not seeing this U.S. team playing in a way that would provide much confidence against one of those European teams.

• Naomi Girma should start the final. The U.S. has gone the entire tournament without conceding a goal, admittedly against weak opposition, but Girma (who didn’t start on Thursday) has been the best-performing centerback of the three-person rotation that includes Becky Sauerbrunn and Alana Cook. Cook had a couple shaky moments on Thursday, so I’d lean toward Sauerbrunn as the central partner for Girma. If there’s one big takeaway on a U.S. player from this tournament, it’s that Girma is the real thing and needs to be a starter going forward.

What are your thoughts? You can join the discussion in the comments below.

MONTERREY, Mexico — Haiti is still alive for World Cup 2023. And Mexico, the host country for the CONCACAF World Cup qualifying tournament, a nation that expected to reach Australia/New Zealand next year, is not. 

“FIFA has essentially washed its hands of this and is not protecting the whistleblowers and survivors in the way that they promised they would.” — Minky Worden, Human Rights Watch

The USWNT clinching a berth in the World Cup may have drawn the most attention back in the States, but the stories of the tournament so far have been Haiti and Mexico. And while Haiti lost 4-0 to Jamaica on Monday night, its stunning 3-0 win over Mexico in the previous game gave Haiti enough points to finish third in Group A and qualify for the World Cup intercontinental playoff in New Zealand next February.

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Melchie Dumornay, Haiti’s electric 19-year-old forward, has been a constant threat in this tournament, and she’s drawing widespread attention from NWSL teams that want to sign her. But if there was one person who isn’t surprised that Haiti still has a decent shot to qualify for its first women’s World Cup, it was Shek Borkowski, who coached the team from 2012 to ’17.

“If you look at the progress of [Haiti’s] youth teams between 2012 and now, you see the U-15s have consistently finished in the top four in CONCACAF, and the U-17s have finished top four in CONCACAF,” Borkowski told me from Puerto Rico, where he’s coaching these days. “And of course, the U-20s qualified for the last U-20 World Cup. I kind of expected the U-20s would continue their development, especially now that 10 or 11 of them are playing in France. So they train consistently in good environments.”

“And Dumornay, I brought in in 2016 to play with our U-15 team when she was 12 years old,” he continued. “She was spectacular. I mean, you could see at age 12 playing against 15-year-old U.S. players, she held her own without any problems.”

As you watched the Haitians celebrate their best moments here, you couldn’t help but contemplate the unspeakable horrors that the players in that country have endured in recent years. As Jonas Baer-Hoffmann, the general secretary of FIFPro, the global players union, told me Monday, “It’s the perfect example of a team performing despite their federation, not because of or thanks to or supported by. I mean, it’s unbelievable that this team got itself to that stage.”

In November 2020, FIFA banned Haitian federation president Yves Jean-Bart for life from all soccer activities and fined him $1 million after groundbreaking investigations from The Guardian, FIFPro and Human Rights Watch revealed that Jean-Bart and Haitian soccer officials had perpetrated a horrific culture of sexual abuse, including the rape of minors and forced abortions, at the Zurich-funded FIFA Goal Center development facility in the country.

FIFA’s 45-page report, which goes into excruciating and necessary detail on the testimony of survivors and whistleblowers, makes for harrowing reading. 

The report concludes: “Based on the above analysis, the panel determines that Mr. Jean-Bart abused his position as the most senior official in Haitian football, as president of the FHF (for 20 years) and created a very complex and extremely harmful system of sexual abuse and exploitation of female players, also minors of age, which occurred inside and outside of the Center and shattered the lives and careers of young girls coming from vulnerable backgrounds with their passion of playing football and possibly pursuing a football career. By doing this, Mr. Jean-Bart also betrayed Haitian football as well as the fundamental values of the game and of FIFA. He became an absolute ruler of an organization, irreversibly corrupting his presidential mandate as custodian of the football youth in his country.”

Jean-Bart, who has maintained his innocence, has filed an appeal with the Court of Arbitration for Sport that is ongoing, and he testified before CAS in April. The Haitian court system, which is notoriously corrupt, has cleared him of criminal wrongdoing to this point. Jean-Bart did not respond to a message sent to him.

“Conservatively, hundreds of [Haitian] women and girls on the national teams in the academy, which is called the Ranch, and men and boys were abused, and I have interviewed dozens of them,” Minky Worden, the Director of Global Initiatives for Human Rights Watch, told me in an interview Sunday. “The heroes here are the whistleblowers and survivors who came forward with evidence, and FIFPro, which provided pro bono legal support. Survivors were able to give the evidence to FIFPro, which would anonymize it.”

But Worden, Baer-Hoffmann and Romain Molina, one of the authors of the stories in The Guardian, were adamant in interviews with me that FIFA:

• Has not done enough to ban other Haitian federation officials who were involved in sexual abuse and who still work in the federation and with the Haitian women’s national team.

• Has not prevented Jean-Bart from continuing to exercise significant influence on Haitian soccer and the federation.

• Has not attempted to collect the $1 million fine that it issued Jean-Bart.

“It’s unimaginable what FIFA is doing,” Molina told me. “They didn't clean up the mess at all.”

“FIFA has essentially washed its hands of this,” Worden said, “and is not protecting the whistleblowers and survivors in the way that they promised they would. FIFA so-called ‘normalized’ the federation, but I can tell you that they have left Jean-Bart cronies and abusers in place. It’s not fair to the incredibly talented and hardworking women and girls of the Haitian national teams that they should have to play in the shadow of this unresolved horror show.”

“The people who are still running the [Haitian] federation in many respects stand credibly accused of sexual abuse or knowing about it and doing nothing,” Worden went on. “The worst reports that Human Rights Watch has are from female players on the national team who said that sexual abuse was everywhere. It was on the medical staff. Everyone saw it and did nothing. A lot of the people who are still there may not have participated in sexual abuse, but they certainly knew about it and did nothing to protect the children.”

A spokesperson for FIFA responded: “FIFA strongly rejects those comments as we have shown that there is a zero-tolerance policy for cases of sexual abuse, exploitation and harassment in football.” 

The spokesperson added: “Besides the ethics investigations and sanctions, a normalization committee has been appointed at the Haitian federation (FHF) and the entire executive committee dismissed, since the failures in governance structures that have facilitated the abuse of power are severe and deeply rooted and a lengthy reform process of the FHF is now also needed. The normalization committee is fully dedicated to creating a safeguarding culture within the Haitian federation. To this effect, a safeguarding officer was recently appointed at the FHF, mandated to act as a focal point for future safeguarding concerns and to support the development of a safeguarding policy and procedures.”

While everyone I talked to for this story was thrilled for the Haitian team’s success here, they all are fearful about the continuing climate around the case inside Haiti. Threats of reprisals to players who speak out about what happened are ongoing, they say.

“The situation obviously is still far far from resolved,” FIFPro’s Baer-Hoffmann told me. “It was always clear to us from the beginning that unless you are able to create real, substantial culture change and really remove everybody who was involved in this kind of systematic abuse system, that you run a high risk of it coming back. We're still very concerned.”

Last week, however, came news that brought them some hope. On July 6, Evans Lescouflair, the former sports minister of Haiti, was arrested in Puerto Rico by Interpol and brought to Haiti, where he has been accused of rape and sexual abuse.

“It’s an amazing victory,” Molina said. “So I give hope that one day Jean-Bart will finish his life behind bars.”

“It ought to put the fear in everyone who supported Jean-Bart and did not help those children,” Worden told me. “There’s reason to think that all of the shoes have not dropped in Haiti.”

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MONTERREY, Mexico — The USWNT beat Mexico 1-0 with a late Kristie Mewis goal (on which the U.S. might have been offside) on Matchday 3 of the CONCACAF qualifying tournament for the World Cup and Olympics on Monday night. The win gave the U.S. first place in its group and sets up a semifinal here against Costa Rica. It was a lackluster night for the U.S., which has now beaten Mexico 38 times in 40 all-time games (with one tie and one defeat). Here are my three thoughts on the game:

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• The U.S. was totally lacking invention. A large part of the problem was due to the starting central midfield of Lindsey Horan, Andi Sullivan and Ashley Sánchez, who didn’t provide any moments of creative spark for a U.S. team that seemed off and, well, boring for the vast majority of the game. There’s a huge drop-off on the midfield ideas meter when Rose Lavelle doesn’t start the game, and Horan just doesn’t appear to be at 100% or anywhere near in-form. But even some of the more traditionally creative attacking players like Sophia Smith were off their games on Monday. It has become entirely too common under coach Vlatko Andonovski for the U.S. to settle for thumping crosses into the box when the option is there to drive at defenders on the ball and attack directly. Those frustrations compounded against a Mexico team that played the last quarter-hour with 10 players.

• Midge Purce had some terrific moments and deserved better. The Gotham winger, coming off a goal on Matchday 1, was a pest for the U.S. and could have had a goal and an assist in a scoreless first half. Purce beat keeper Itzel González but smacked the left post 15 minutes in, and near the end of the half she made a glorious 65-yard run down the right side to erase the Mexican defense. Unfortunately for the U.S., Lindsay Horan, who was wide open for Purce’s cross, made a mess of the finish and shot directly at González. There’s a terrific battle going on for starting wing positions for the USWNT, and while Smith and Mal Pugh have a slight advantage, Purce has narrowed the gap a bit in this tournament.

• I’ll be curious to see where Mexico goes from here. With Jamaica’s 4-0 victory over Haiti in the other game (which qualified Jamaica for the World Cup), El Tri finished last in the four-team group and will miss the World Cup, an absolute disaster for a team that was hosting this tournament and fully expected to qualify for the expanded 32-team World Cup next year. (The crazy thing was that Jamaica’s goal difference against Haiti actually meant Mexico would have survived in World Cup qualifying if they had won this game 1-0.) But with a crowd in excess of 20,000 watching this game, Mexico had by far its best performance of the tournament against a U.S. team that has been its tormentor over the years. You have to wonder if that might be enough to save Mónica Vergara’s job, although the Mexican media is well-known for putting heaps of pressure on El Tri coaches who don’t succeed.

What are your thoughts? You can join the discussion in the comments below.