Fútbol with Grant Wahl: Interviews

Neel Shah:

It seemed like a very odd decision. Now 13 years later, it still seems odd, actually. It was a fantastic decision, I feel like the best one in my life. I had never been to India in 2007, and I remember just seeing Sunil Gulati around and just peppering him with questions about India, and telling him, "I feel like I want to do something there, I just don't know what." I had never even been to India, and I kind of had no plan. I was just a young kid, very excited, and just rambling. Finally in 2007, I just got a ticket and backpacked around during my winter break. Because of the relationships that I had in the soccer industry, I was able to meet with the federation, people at Nike, Adidas, and others, while still backpacking, going to my family villages and so on.

I left the country at that time feeling like there's something really special in this country, not just from a soccer perspective, but from a personal growth and development perspective. So 2008, same thing, I went back with 300 soccer balls. A friend was writing a book for ESPN about the power of sport, and he said, "Can you just donate these around the country and record the impact on you and the people you're connecting with?" I did, and I realized on that trip, there was so much power and passion for football at the grassroots level. When I was giving a ball to a child in Tamil Nadu, they would get as excited as if I was giving it to somebody in Buenos Aires. It was all there.

I also went to a Federation Cup final, Mohun Bagan versus Dempo, in Salt Lake Stadium, it's in Kolkata. 80,000 people were there, and it was as vibrant as I would've seen in so many parts of the world. So I thought, "At the top there's potential, I'm seeing it, and I'm feeling potential at the bottom." It was the dialogue between the top and the bottom, and the sustainability, and the ecosystem's ability to thrive and sustain itself that was missing. I felt like in the U.S. I had experienced so much of that. I thought, "I'm uniquely positioned to move to this country, and try my best to bring a little bit of what I've learned over to India, but also to learn and grow in the process." I thought it would be a couple of years, and I just was captivated by the warmth and potential and just adventure in this country, and I just stayed.

Grant Wahl:

It's an amazing story, and you're right, you are uniquely situated I think, as someone who's been so involved in the development of soccer in the United States, and then going to India. How do you think they compare, the U.S. and India, in soccer? How do they contrast as still-developing soccer countries?

Neel Shah:

I think about this often. At the forefront, I’d say given my experience in soccer in America, where I was there in the U.S. in '94 and the World Cup came. I was in the stadium when the U.S. beat China in the 1999 World Cup, with the historic win and Brandi Chastain's iconic moment. I was watching when we made it to the quarterfinals in the 2002 World Cup and watched the growth of MLS. I was also there at times where people said, "Soccer's never going to grow, it's never going to make it." Watching the MetroStars play inside of Giants Stadium with NFL lines, and you'd have my friends going, "Neel, you're the director of fan development, what are you doing all day at work?"

I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm embarrassed here."

So it was, in those days going, "How are we going to do this? Are we really going to be a league that we're all proud to be a part of?" And seeing what's happening at this recent MLS Cup is a perfect example of where the league is at. In India, it's no different. It's a cricket country by all purposes, it's in their blood, it's in the religion. But I understand that growth and development, it takes time. Because I saw the U.S. growth and development, where it's almost gone from a place where nobody really thinks it's going to make it, and it's gone to what it is today, I felt like India can do it even faster. When a country of 1.4 billion really gets excited about something, miracles can happen. We've seen this in other sectors, like the IT industry and Bollywood and so on.

On one hand, these are two countries where soccer is not the number one sport, and the stakeholders have to get together to really work hard to make it relevant in the country. Two is that the passion for the sport exists in the country. Even when MLS wasn't the most popular for soccer fans, there was still some pockets of passion for European soccer. In India, I find that kids in Mumbai or Bangalore or Chennai or Delhi know as much about European soccer as people in Europe. I find the passion as palpable as I would when I'm sitting in Manchester or London for their local clubs. So that's there. The biggest difference, honestly, Grant, in the U.S. the structure is so much more set, whether it's U.S. Youth Soccer, AYSO, U.S. Club Soccer, and the university system.

Even when MLS came in, it was a long-term plan that most stakeholders were behind. In India, it's such a large country, it's 36 state associations, and as I said 1.4 billion people, with a lot of challenges beyond sports development that exist in the country. When you have that, it's very difficult to centralize leadership. So you have to go down to the state associations, and they're not well-funded, not very professional. When the states are weak, it's very difficult to see the pathway and the growth of the game in a way that's really meaningful, and we really need to empower the states. Because of cricket's rise, and the Indian Premier League, which has become one of the most profitable leagues in the world, most Indian investors who invest in soccer want to see the cricket success overnight. The people in MLS who invested early, like Lamar Hunt and Phillip Anschutz and Robert Kraft, they understood that these things take time.

So they were willing to get behind the long term plan. But in India, I've seen that that patience is not there. Because the patience is not there, you see a lot of money invested and a lot of people pulling out, which is actually hurting the system more than helping. That's been one of my biggest messages to people here since I've been here, just standing on my soapbox, telling as many people as I can, long-term growth and sustainability is our goal here. Everything we do, we should focus on sustainability impact first, and the rest will come. And I can say that because of my MLS and U.S. Soccer experience, but unfortunately not a lot of people were blessed with that opportunity to grow up in the way that I did.

Grant Wahl:

In addition to writing your book, what are you doing professionally over there?

Neel Shah:

Over the last 13 years of being here, most of my time was in the soccer industry. For a long time, I was with a company called Libero Sports. It was a soccer consulting company with investors from the U.S. where we would actually help set up the businesses and market entry strategies for international clubs like Barcelona, Liverpool and even Bayern Munich. It helped them really start to maximize the opportunity here in India, because there were so many fans of their clubs in the country, but they weren't able to really understand how to actually connect with them in a way that was workable and long-lasting. So I was doing that and working with a lot of Indian soccer stakeholders.

Then, I became a CEO of a professional team, which is a dream, to run a club. It was in Pune, it was in the I-League, our professional league. I also ran the Liverpool Academy as part of that project. But one of the things I noticed was that what was missing in India was not necessarily more money in Indian sports, it was missing professionals. My time at MLS taught me that if you have professional people in the right positions in the sports industry, you'll see growth at a much greater pace. And when you have people who don't have that acumen, they could have passion, but they don't have business acumen, it's harder to see that growth. So what we decided to do, myself and an investor, is set up India's first industry-designed sports management post-grad program, basically a master's program. We set it up in 2018, it's called the Global Institute of Sports Business. It's incredible, because we have about 30 students a year who go through this 15-month rigorous course. The University of Massachusetts-Amherst, which is the number one program in the world, send over their faculty.

They teach here, we have a great working relationship with them, and our partner is the Premier League. They give our students a lot of consultancy projects, not for them, but for their clubs as well. They're constantly looking at how Chelsea, Arsenal and others can build their brand and business in India. Our students go to England and get to see what it's like to work in the Premier League, and Premier League clubs as well. At the end of this journey, they end up getting jobs somewhere in the industry.

I am the associate dean of that program. On the side, I head up business for the parent company India On Track, and our clients are the Premier League and La Liga, and even Major League Baseball, as we help build the culture of baseball for MLB in this country. We do a lot of that kind of work as well.

Grant Wahl:

That's fascinating. Wearing a lot of hats and doing a lot of different work. It's very interesting. I do want to ask about the history a little bit. What happened with India and the 1950 World Cup, and what was the impact of that in your opinion?

Neel Shah:

I'm sure you know your history, in 1947 India became a country, was able to break off from being run by the British and had their own democracy and democratic state basically. Even by 1948, India had started traveling around Europe to play a bunch of soccer games, and was in the 1948 Olympics in London and had a thrilling 2-1 loss to France. A lot of people started to notice the Indian national soccer team, and traveled around Europe to play a bunch of friendlies, even beat Ajax 5-1 in a friendly match. The FIFA organizers, the World Cup organizers, wanted to bring in what they called the country of Gandhi to Brazil to play in the World Cup, and they invited them. A couple of other teams in Asia dropped out, so they had this direct entry to go over to Brazil and compete.

What was interesting is that in 1950 a lot of the press that was happening in England was filtering into India, because there was still that hangover. In 1950, the World Cup wasn't the primary soccer tournament in the world for the British in their minds and their perception. Indians also felt the same way, so right off the bat, they weren't really overly kicked about it. Two is that the Olympics was very important, so they were focused on that. Three is that the Asian Games was going to be hosted in Delhi in 1951, and India really wanted to get gold in that tournament. So rather than sending a team all the way to South America, it was quite a haul, they decided to say, "We don't want to do this right now. We'll thankfully and respectfully decline your invitation to the FIFA World Cup, so that we can focus on the Asian games in Delhi," which they won gold, and they'll focus on the 1952 Helsinki Olympics, which they got fourth place in.

The All India Football Federation, in a way, was right, but they didn't realize that by saying no to FIFA in the 1950 World Cup led to many decades of not even getting to qualify for other World Cups, which really set the country back.

Grant Wahl:

It's really good, I think, to establish that there is a history of soccer in India, and even success. I sometimes remind people about that in the United States as well. There are some similarities in that whole 40-year period when the U.S. men didn't qualify for the World Cup, from 1950 to 1990, part of the that time was because U.S. Soccer was prioritizing the Olympics, and the U.S. actually qualified for the Olympics. It's so hard to imagine now, because we think of Olympic men's soccer as something quite a bit smaller than the World Cup.

In terms of India and qualifying for the men's World Cup, when do you think that could happen? How close is India?

Neel Shah:

One of the reasons we wrote the book is because this comes up in every single pub banter session to every soccer conference I've ever been to. Even my in-laws, who are in Delhi, every time I'm at a family gathering, they ask me this question. So I wrote the book as an answer to that question, which is basically I'm not 100% sure. I can't tell you what the year will be. I can tell you what we need to do to get there. To be honest, to try to bring a little bit more detail to that, we have 48 teams in the 2026 World Cup. We don't know how many spots that actually means for Asia, but I do feel like that is going to be a help for India to get one of those spots.

The other part of it is we are actually really far away, though, in terms of our systems. Our academies are pretty far behind the other Asian countries, and they seem to be getting stronger and stronger, whereas ours are taking time. Our professional landscape, league landscape, is still finding its feet. There are two leagues that are looking at figuring out a way to kind of combine. Our grassroots and youth league system is pretty far away, too. So I would love to throw out a number, 2034, and say, "That's going to happen," but a lot of different things need to happen to make that happen. The exciting thing is we believe the women will make it to the senior World Cup before the men do.

The women's game is more neglected in India than the men's, unfortunately, but the competitive landscape in Asia for women's soccer at the national level is not as strong as it is for the men's. So for the Indian national men's team to make it as one of the top four, five, or six in Asia, it's quite a journey, especially throwing in the Middle East teams as well, and Australia. You talk about the women's team, they continually win SAFF, which is the South Asian football federation, and they can be competitive with many of the competitive teams in Asia. Maybe not Japan right now, but they can go up against others and still hold their own. I do feel like there will be ways for the women's team to qualify before the men. Our women's World Cup team won in '99 in the U.S., and you saw what that did just for the perception of soccer in America.

I would be more than excited for the women to make it before the men, not just for soccer, but for women's empowerment and respect in this country, which is something that so many women face as a part of just being sometimes considered the wrong sex over here, which is not true at all, of course.

Grant Wahl:

I was going to ask you about that as well, with women's soccer over there, just access-wise, what's that like? Is that growing, just the ability for women to play the sport?

Neel Shah:

It's pretty dire at the lower levels, really. There are school teams, there would be some youth programs here and there. Where you're seeing the most movement is a new league they started a couple of years ago, the federation called the IWL, the Indian Women's League. It's more of a short-form league that they're looking to extend over time. So at least it's giving these women football players an opportunity to play in a competitive tournament at a national level.

That being said, the pay is not enough to make this a full-time career at this point. So it’s pretty difficult to keep managing this for a lot of these women. Where we've seen the most impact actually, which is also what we talk about in the book, there are individuals who've gone to different parts of India and set up these non-profit programs that are, I feel like, having a transformational impact on those communities.

There's an American guy from Minnesota, a hockey player named Franz Gastler, he showed up in a village called Huta Village, fell in love with that village, and created a girl's soccer program that a lot of his friends started funding. I've been to that village many times, he started in 2009, those girls in Jharkand have been able to go to Donosti Cup in Spain, go to the America's Cup in Minnesota, they've gone out to DC, they've won the Laureus Sports Award, got an award from Arsene Wenger.

There are many of these around the country, and I spent a lot of my time in India traveling around and visiting them to understand them better. So what I've been sharing with people who want to see women's soccer grow is not just, "Wait for the federation to do it," it might take a long time. But let’s start empowering these really, I call them heroes in the sticks, who are working day and night for the betterment of women's soccer from the ground up.

And in the meantime, the academies and the league structure will get there. FIFA, AFC is all trying to help us out, but let's really get those people the support that they deserve and need to do more with the energy and passion they have for this space.

Grant Wahl:

There's a good chapter on the women's game in your book. I did want to ask about China and India and soccer development. I did a story when I went to China right before the 2002 men's World Cup, when Bore Milutinovic had gotten them to their World Cup, their first one on the men's side. They have not gotten back, China, since then. I do think people, when they think about the two biggest countries in the world population-wise, India and China, there's a feeling that in men's soccer at least China has made some real missteps over the last 20 years. My question would be, one, is there a rivalry between the two countries as they develop soccer wise? And are there any lessons to be drawn from what's happened in China in men's soccer over the last two decades?

Neel Shah:

From a rivalry perspective, unfortunately, not yet. We haven't played enough matches against them, we've not had any way to build that rivalry on the soccer side. On the political side, 100%. In the military side, there's a lot of challenges with China. We share certain borders with them. From my experience, I haven't studied Chinese soccer as in depth as I understand Indian soccer, but what I've understood is that when the president of China many years ago said he wanted 50,000 turf soccer fields in the country by a particular year, I had been in China speaking at a conference around that time, and I started noticing a lot of people are moving to make that happen.

What I noticed in India, when the Prime Minister says anything even close to that, "Let's support soccer. The U-17 World Cup is here, let's do something," to go from the top in Delhi to all these 36 state associations and to mobilize funds in a way that's making sure it's getting to the right places and people are moving in the right ways, is far slower and more challenging in India than a communist country like China.

From a growth and development perspective, I imagine China would see a lot more success in the pace and velocity of their investments going to the right places because of how the country is structured. The learning, though, is what they did with the Chinese Super League. The transfer fees that started coming in, the money that was being spent, the way that they were running, they all of a sudden tried to bypass sustainability and structuring and establishing a good foundation, a healthy foundation for that league before jumping to try to compete with the likes of the Premier League.

That's when the government stepped in and started putting all these penalties and fines and really trying to slow that down. In that process a lot of money would be leaked out to agents, to players, to translators, and I feel like it would've impacted Chinese soccer by a lot, because it would've been difficult for those core national team players to get the kind of environment that would help them thrive, I feel.

In India, we tried to do something kind of similar with the Indian Super League. While we weren't bringing in Oscar and others, we were bringing in Del Piero, and Pires, and Zico as a coach, Marco Mastriani as a coach, and Roberto Carlos, and so on. While it brought a lot of excitement and attention to the league for a couple of years, it also wasn't very sustainable, because the players were at the tail end of their careers. You're spending millions of dollars on them to not just pay them, but their translators, their wives, their girlfriends, the five-star hotels. It's a two and a half, three month league, and a lot of money is just going, and they don't come back the next year. They're not necessarily making the Indian players better.

I really speak about this a lot. I feel, and I'm biased, the MLS model is incredibly intelligent in terms of bringing in the marquee players at a time when we had proper soccer specific stadiums, at a time where we had decent homegrown players that could play around a David Beckham or Thierry Henry, at a time where the officials running the clubs and the league understood the game a lot more than maybe they would've in 2001 or 1999, when everything was brand new to everyone. The Chinese Super League, but definitely ISL, tried to do a lot really fast. Some of it worked, but a lot of it leaked a lot of money that could have gone back into the development of the game.

Grant Wahl:

Just to wrap up, I guess I would ask about what you view as your personal future. You visited India for the first time just in the 2000s, and in the last 13 years you've lived in India full-time. Do you see yourself staying in India full-time long term, or do you plan on coming back to the U.S. at some point?

Neel Shah:

I just realized that you've been to India before I was first ever in India. You were saying you were here in 2006, which is unbelievable. I feel very blessed, and anybody who knows me and spends a lot of time with me, would get that when I speak. I have this beautiful opportunity to connect the east and the west through sports and education. A lot of the work I've done since I got to India was to try to connect Europe, and eventually, even U.S.-based sports companies, and tell the India story to them, and bring them back over here in a way that they can impact this country and get rewards as well.

Now I'm doing it through education, giving my students global best practices here in India, but also helping students in the U.S. understand, and the UK and Australia, the Indian sports landscape, because there are a lot of opportunities here.

Six and a half years ago, I got married to a girl here in India, Avantika.

Grant Wahl:

Congrats.

Neel Shah:

Thank you. I also went from being a nomad who had no family in this country to a person who has a huge set of in-laws and extended family in Delhi. So India feels like home. I do get to spend a lot of time in Europe and America visiting family and teaching and connecting with the sports communities there. For now, my parents will not love to hear this, because they're sitting in California, but I see India as a longer-term home, but a lot of trips and time spent in the U.S. and in a bit in England to keep pounding the pavement that people should be investing and thinking about connecting with India across all industries. Because it’s such a beautiful, vibrant, and high-potential country.

Grant Wahl:

Neel Shah's new book is Awakening the Blue Tigers: India's Quest for Football's Holy Grail, co-written with Gaurav Gala. Neel, congratulations. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

Neel Shah:

Thanks so much Grant, and keep up the great work. I love everything you're doing.

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The Interview: Jason and Yeganeh Rezaian

Grant Wahl — Mon, 14 Nov 2022 15:03:10 GMT

Jason and Yeganeh Rezaian (Photo by Dimitrios Kambouris/Getty Images for The New Yorker)

I have been looking forward to doing this interview for a while now. Jason and Yeganeh Rezaian are two of the contemporary journalists I most admire and important voices on what’s happening in Iran. This interview got pretty emotional toward the end. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate the time they took for this.

The entirety of the written interview below is reserved for paid subscribers. As always, you can still get the entire free audio version of my podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

Grant Wahl:

The U.S. meets Iran in the World Cup on November 29, and my guests now are two of the foremost journalists on Iran in the United States, and soccer fans as well. Jason Rezaian is a columnist for the Washington Post, creator of the podcast series 544 Days and the author of Prisoner about his wrongful imprisonment by Iranian authorities from 2014 to 2016 as a political hostage.

Also with us is his wife, Yeganeh Rezaian, who was also imprisoned with Jason for nearly three months, and who has also done extensive journalism on Iran for Bloomberg and other outlets. She has written on women's soccer fans in Iran who have not been allowed to attend games and is now a senior researcher for the Committee to Protect Journalists. It's an honor to have both of you on the podcast. Thank you so much.

Jason Rezaian:

Thank you for having us, Grant.

Yeganeh Rezaian:

Yes, thank you so much for having us. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Grant Wahl:

It’s just so great to have you both here and I appreciate it. We are a soccer podcast, but we're also a culture podcast, and there's a much wider, much more important context around the U.S. versus Iran game in the World Cup. Would it be possible just to start by explaining to listeners what's happening in Iran right now with protests, and what has led to them?

Yeganeh Rezaian:

Jason, you could do that, and I talk more of soccer.

Jason Rezaian:

So at the moment, we are almost two full months into ongoing protests in Iran that started in late September following the death in custody of a young Iranian woman, Mahsa Amini, who was arrested by what they call the morality police in Iran. But really they are dress-code police that arbitrarily enforce rules about what women can wear in the streets.

She was taken into custody, and some way along the ride to the detention center where she was going to be processed, it appears as though she was savagely beaten by the forces that picked her up, and a few days later after being in a coma she died in a hospital.

The news of that broke, and Iranians have been out in the streets ever since. And I think it's important to say that these protests are led primarily and initially by women, but other marginalized groups in Iranian society, ethnic minorities like the Kurds and the Balochis, Azeris, religious minorities, Sunnis, the LGBTQ community, and others have come out and said, "Hey look, we want equality under this system that has denied us that for 43 years." And so I think that's the context of what's going on.

Grant Wahl:

And Yeganeh, you were born in Iran, you both have lived in Iran. How are you able to cover what's happening in Iran right now from over here in the U.S.?

Yeganeh Rezaian:

Well, as you said, I was born and raised in Iran, so that helps a little bit with the coverage because you understand the mentality of both people, which I'm one of them and also a little bit of the system. Because I grew up in that system, and I'm very well familiar with their brutality. I'm very well familiar with how they deprive people of their very basic rights, including women who have been deprived of their own rights to choose their own outfit, like the very basic right of clothing.

And that helps obviously, but it's not ideal to be far from your homeland and cover it. I'm lucky that these days, my work at the Committee to Protect Journalists lets me focus on one particular beat and only cover that. While obviously as an Iranian, I read and monitor the news of my homeland religiously every morning, all news of my former country, but because my work is very focused on one particular beat, that gives me more and more time and accuracy in terms of doing what I do rather than on major hard news.

Grant Wahl:

And just as a quick follow up, how much do Iranians use social media like Instagram or Twitter or anything else?

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Yeganeh Rezaian:

Oh, that's a very great question. Let me tell you that because Iranians have been historically disconnected by this regime by force from the international community, for years there was a war, so Iranians couldn't really travel. Then there was sanctions, so it was financially difficult for Iranians to travel to outside the world, and because of the hostility that this regime has had with other western countries, there were not usually many foreign tourists who would come and visit the beautiful historic sites of Iran.

Iranians are very thirsty for being connected and heard and being communicated with the rest of the world. So at this point in recent years when internet was available to them, as much as it was, we know it was not a hundred percent like the internet we have, Iranians were huge users of social media.

Instagram was, up to these protests, the only openly social media platform available to them. And we know that there were many millions of Iranians, maybe up to 70% of Iranians, were on Instagram doing businesses, being connected with each other, being connected with the outside world, like if they had friends and relatives. They also have a very strong presence on Twitter, but they need to use VPN. But generally, if you imagine Iran has a very young generation and this very young generation is very well-educated, very well-connected with the outside world, and dying to be even more connected. So social media plays a major role in their daily life.

Grant Wahl:

Jason, how might we see the protests in Iran influence things at the World Cup with the Iranian team?

Jason Rezaian:

I think we're going to see it influence the Iranian team's experience first and foremost. I think there'll be more international media scrutiny on what they do during the games. I also think that there's been this conversation about whether or not FIFA should disqualify Iran from participating in the World Cup because of their support of Russia in the delivery of drones that Russia is using in their war against Ukraine.

So I think there's a lot of political intrigue involved, but also there are former players, current players, who are supportive of these protests. And I think the truth of the matter is that the Iranian national team—Team Melli, as it's known in Persian and within Iran—is sort of one of the most important symbols of modern Iran. And for that reason it's somewhat controversial.

I think fandom of the national team knew no boundaries until quite recently. And as you talked about earlier, I mean the fact that women are barred from entering stadiums, people probably had to pledge allegiance and keep their mouths shut for periods of time while playing on the team in ways that they might not have had they not been associated with the national team. All of those topics are a bit controversial, but ultimately I think the vast majority of Iranians feel connected, more connected with this team than they do with any other member of the Iranian sports community.

Grant Wahl:

It's an interesting one because I just talked to a friend of mine who's Iranian, who lives in Doha these days, and somebody I met around the 1998 World Cup game between the U.S. and Iran that was won by Iran. Is there any comparison to what was happening in '98 around that Iran team? And my friend actually had told me that there are some in the protests who think some of the players, maybe even the new coach, who's the old coach, Carlos Queiroz, are tied to the regime. Is there anything to that?

Jason Rezaian:

I'll say one thing and then I'd really like to hear what Yegi has to say, but I think by definition anybody who's playing for an Iranian national team or the national team of any country is tied to the regime in that they're paid by a federation funded by the country's government. So in that sense, yeah, they're part of the system or connected in that way. Does that mean that they are supportive of it? Not necessarily.

And I think around the question of the factors compared to 1998, that was a big deal. I mean, you remember. This was a huge moment at that point two-decade-long enmity between the U.S. and Iran. And it was at the dawn of the reform movement inside Iran. And there was hope that relations between the two countries could change. I think that there's hope that relations between the two countries could change again, but that hope is no longer invested in diplomatic outreach, whether it be through traditional diplomatic channels or public diplomacy or through sports, but rather through connectivity between the people of Iran and the people of the U.S.. And so it's in my mind an even more consequential moment than that 1998 match.

Grant Wahl:

What's your sense, Yeganeh, about how the protests might influence things at the World Cup?

Yeganeh Rezaian:

I think they will definitely have some impact at the World Cup, as we have seen in the past few weeks that its impact on several other national games that Iran players at different sports play, like the rock-climbing female Iranian who decided to ditch her hijab. And then she, I'm sure, faced consequences as she walked back to the country. We saw that our national men’s beach volleyball players made some solidarity signs at their game a couple of days ago with Iranian women.

And it's been reported that they are facing consequences. Their team arrived, their car arrived at the airport, and the security forces barred the players from giving any interviews to journalists. So I'm sure there will be both positive and negative impacts at these three initial games that Iran is going to play at the World Cup. I hope they are more positive.

We saw another team in the past couple of days play, and the players refrained themselves from singing the national anthem because they do not feel that they are representing this regime anymore. The players believe that they are more representative of the people of Iran, so they did not sing the national anthem. So we will see things like this, even more major possibly, or maybe smaller. But my heart goes out to the players once they are back in the country and the consequences that they have to face. And they know that. So what I want to say is that if we see any impact positive in solidarity with the Iranian people, those decisions are made very cleverly and very decidedly by the players if we see anything like that.

Grant Wahl:

And Yeganeh, you have written some really good stories about the situation of Iranian women not being allowed to attend soccer matches over the years in stadiums. Where is that situation right now?

Yeganeh Rezaian:

Unfortunately, the situation remained the same despite all the international pressure and all the national pressure by Iranian women and several celebrities working with Iranian women to push their request onto the federation. But the situation still remains.

There have been a couple of pre-World Cup games that FIFA asked Iran to let women in. And by that, they just hand-pick the group of women who are part of the system and let those women in. Let's say the female parliamentarian and their relatives, they let those women in the stadium, which is terrible. I was talking to a friend of mine who said the last game that Iran's federation announced that women spectators can go ahead and buy the ticket online. She was saying that that was a lie, and the website never opened up and it was impossible for them to purchase the ticket online once they put their gender in the system.

So we have seen these tactics by the Iran regime, and unfortunately it's very sad. And the truth is that Iranian women are still banned from freely walking to the stadium without any hurt or without any obstacle, and sit there as a normal fan of the Team Melli and watch the game.

Grant Wahl:

I want to ask Jason first and then Yeganeh just about how you got into soccer. And I was talking with Jason a little bit before we started recording, and you were in wrongful imprisonment. You were essentially in a similar case to Brittney Griner's current situation in Russia. You also watched a lot of soccer while you were imprisoned.

Jason Rezaian:

Yeah. I grew up in northern California running around on a field and trying to kick a ball and not being very good at it. Although I was on the soccer team in maybe sixth and seventh grade, I moved on and kind of lost any interest, although many of my friends continued to play into high school and on club teams in college. And then in early adulthood we would travel to Europe and stuff. Everybody would say, "Let's go see a soccer match." I'm like, "Why am I gonna spend 50 bucks to go stadium to watch a game that doesn't make any sense?"

And then I landed in prison in Iran. And after several months of being in complete isolation, I was put into a larger cell that had a TV. And Iran state television, they don't pay any licensing fees to international broadcasters and they just show what they want to show. So they would have live feeds of European soccer matches.

And one of my cellmates was a huge Real Madrid fan. Loved Ronaldo, which I thought was ridiculous because the guy just seemed like such a, I don't know kind words we could use on this show, Grant.

Grant Wahl:

Whatever you want.

Jason Rezaian:

He just seemed like one of those dudes, you know what I'm saying? And what's a guy like that, running around in shorts afraid to get dirty for? And as I would say, friendly rivalry in the cell, I naturally gravitated towards Barcelona and just loved the kind of bad-boy nature of Neymar and sort of sour attitude of Suárez. And so I got into it, and it made it so that I could learn some of the rules of soccer. Yegi and I started watching Ted Lasso not so long ago. I was happy to understand that I'm not the only American that doesn't understand what offside constitutes. You know it when you see it, right? He said something like that, I think. But it was a really kind of fun aspect of... Fun is not the right word, but a little bit of joy in an otherwise dark time.

Grant Wahl:

Yeganeh, what's your connection to soccer over the years?

Yeganeh Rezaian:

As the third girl or third daughter of a father who was desperate to have a son, I grew up watching lots of soccer with my sister and dad, who was always trying to teach us. And it was a lot of fun. I grew up playing soccer in my neighborhood as the only girl who was not wearing a hijab and acted a little bit tomboy with my boy friends in the neighborhood. And it was a lot of fun. And my dad was always there and trying to teach me more and help me get physically stronger so I could continue playing with the boys.

But obviously there was an age when I got 16, 17 that I couldn't hide my femaleness anymore, if that's the word I can use. And yeah, the Islamic rules and the dress code banned me from playing anymore because we had angry religious female neighbors who were not happy with me playing in our street with boys with no hijab. So I had to stop and instead watch more soccer.

And I was always desperate to go to the stadium and watch a soccer team of my national Team Melli or national team. And it got to a point that when Iran and Australia were playing for that pre-qualifying game, I passed out. Can you believe that? As a 16-year-old, I passed out when Iran won. And then my parents were so worried for me because I invested too much on that game, and I had so much stress that the moment Khododad Azizi scored that goal, I was unconscious for a few minutes, or maybe a few seconds.

But it's really sad, Grant, to say that until this day I have not been able to walk to a stadium and watch a soccer game yet. I was very lucky that when we early on came back to the United States, I went to the Golden State Warriors’ Oracle Stadium and watched a male basketball game. And that was a lot of fun. And I remember walking up to the top of the Oracle Stadium in San Francisco Bay Area and I said, "Oh my God, Jason, this is breathtaking. This is so beautiful." But I'm looking forward to finally being able to watch a soccer game. If it is Real Madrid-Barcelona, which I am a rival of my husband and I am a fan of Real Madrid, I can't wait. I would love that. And now we have a little boy, and I'm hoping that we can teach him some moves and he becomes at least a soccer player for fun. I think that's my story.

Jason Rezaian:

He likes to kick, he likes to kick the ball around, but every once in a while he picks it up and slam dunks it into a mini basketball hoop. So I'm hoping that he's a multisport guy. And we went to Spain this summer and we bought matching Barça outfits for him and his one-year-old cousin. So the rivalry continues.

Grant Wahl:

I look forward to him being a rebel and deciding to be an Atlético Madrid fan.

Jason Rezaian:

Exactly. Exactly.

Grant Wahl:

So when the World Cup starts very soon here, Iran's first game is against England. I think it's the second game of the tournament. The game against the United States is on November 29. What will you two be doing to watch that game, to prepare for that game, and what will it look like at your household?

Jason Rezaian:

Well, four years ago, Yegi and I threw a watch party at a sports bar, at a Boston-themed sports bar here in DC, because we wanted a place for people to get together and watch the match. We didn't know or hear of any other venues where Iranian Americans would be gathering. And it was a packed house. A couple hundred people came, and we had Persian food and it was a really special thing. We're getting really close to the day of the match, I guess less than three weeks away. But that being said, I know we're going to do something. I'm not sure what it is yet, but I'm sure it's going to be pretty cool.

Yeganeh Rezaian:

I would like us, Grant, to do another watch party, but with respect to all the Iranians who have been killed, all the protestors back in Iran and all the blood that has been shed, I don't think we are going to do a party. But rest assured we are going to at least watch at home and have a big table of all kinds of snacks and put our baby to sleep, and the two of us will be glued to TV. And I think at the end of the day, I'm going to cheer Iran and Jason will cheer the U.S.

Jason Rezaian:

Well, this is what I said to Yegi, Grant, once before we got married, and it almost ended the relationship for good. Iranian and American wrestling champions were facing off in the Olympics. And I told her, "May the best country win." And that day, America won. And I realized that I love America, I love Iran. I'll just be happy when the two teams face off in a couple weeks, that it's a clean match, a friendly match, and one where the world gets to see that sportsmen can compete in a way that preserves their humanities.

Grant Wahl:

One last question for Yeganeh. Do you have hope that someday you might be able to go to a different Iran, maybe even run by a different regime, where it's very easy for women to attend soccer games?

Yeganeh Rezaian:

I stay hopeful, Grant. I hope so. That's the hope that keeps me alive, because I would like to go back to my country, see my old neighborhood and see Iranian women in their full capacity of looking beautiful and smelling good and being intelligent and smart, and they don't have to be forced by anyone to do anything. So yeah, I carry that hope in my heart. I hope it happens in my lifetime.

Grant Wahl:

Jason and Yeganeh Rezaian, thanks for coming on the show.

Jason Rezaian:

Thanks for having us, Grant.

Yeganeh Rezaian:

Thank you so much.

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The Interview: Jeremy Schaap

Grant Wahl — Fri, 04 Nov 2022 18:32:41 GMT

ESPN’s Jeremy Schaap went back to report in Qatar earlier this year (Photo by Gustavo Caballero/Getty Images for Invictus Games)

ESPN’s Jeremy Schaap has done a lot of phenomenal investigative journalism over the years, and he succeeds again in “Qatar’s World Cup,” which debuts on ESPN’s E60 this Sunday at 8:30 pm ET. We have an in-depth discussion about it below.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is the longtime ESPN reporter Jeremy Schaap. His ESPN E60 episode, “Qatar's World Cup,” on the controversy surrounding the selection of Qatar to host the upcoming World Cup, debuts this Sunday at 8:30 PM ET on ESPN. Produced and directed by Max Brodsky, it will be available for on-demand streaming on ESPN+ after the initial airing. I have seen it, it's extremely well done. Congratulations, Jeremy, and thanks for coming on the show.

Jeremy Schaap:

Oh, it's great to be here, Grant. And thank you so much for the kind words. It means a lot. I know you've been following this story for a very long time as well. And yeah, I'm really appreciative that we have a chance here to talk about it to your audience.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah, I've been looking forward to this. This is a sprawling and fearless piece of reporting shot in several different countries, including Qatar. How did you and the people who produced this episode want to approach putting this together?

Jeremy Schaap:

Well, we did a story eight years ago about specifically the issue of who was going to build the World Cup? Who was going to make this project possible in Qatar in 2022? Talking about, as you know, a small country, just a few hundred thousand citizens, 90% of the population is foreign workers. And it was going to take a remarkable amount of work, something really spectacular, to build everything that was necessary to make this World Cup possible. And we did a show, we did an E60 piece in 2014, focusing on the plight of these foreign workers.

And then over the last half-decade, as the World Cup was getting closer and closer, we always had the intention of going back to see the conditions now, to see what has changed, to do an update on the story. Because that became a big issue globally in the sports dialogue and beyond, and there were a lot of journalists who did reporting on it. There were a lot of human rights organizations focused on it, advocacy groups, pressure brought to bear on Qatar, and it seemed natural that we would want to go back and examine the issue again. And this show does examine the issue again. And as you know since you saw it, that is the primary focus, but it also goes to the backstory of how Qatar got the World Cup in the first place.

Would ESPN have done investigative reporting like this on Qatar if ESPN were still the U.S. English-Language World Cup rights holder and not Fox Sports? “My answer to that is yes. And I believe that to the core of my being.” — Jeremy Schaap

Grant Wahl:

A lot of my readers and listeners are going to either watch the World Cup in Qatar or go to the World Cup there. And part of what I think they want to know is: What has Qatar done since getting the World Cup hosting rights in 2010 to improve the conditions of migrant workers there? And has Qatar done enough? How would you answer that question?

Jeremy Schaap:

Well, that's the big question, right? I mean, those are the big questions, and that's what we endeavored to answer, those questions with this show. And it's complicated, right? I mean, I think what we can say, Grant, is that things have improved, especially in the last five years. After Qatar and the International Labour Organization, the ILO, the arm of the United Nations that deals with workers' rights, came to an agreement creating a new framework for workers' rights in Qatar. And that happened after the International Trade Union Confederation put a lot of pressure on Qatar, working with the ILO to bring Qatar to the table to see these changes take effect.

And there have been changes in terms of what we call the kafala system. The kafala system, as I'm sure many in your audience know, is the sponsorship system, that's what they call it, that exists in several Gulf states. Also in Jordan, in Lebanon, for foreign workers, tying workers who come from other countries to their employers. And this was an issue we explored back in 2014, I think at some depth. And part of it is your employer kept your passport, you couldn't change jobs freely. There were limited ways in which workers could bring complaints against employers, etc. Some of the things that have changed, they describe it, human rights activists, people on the ground, advocates, as a dismantling of the kafala system.

GrantWahl.com is a reader-supported soccer newsletter, and this is how I make my living. Independent journalism requires resources. The best way to support me and my work is by taking out a paid subscription now. Save money on annual subscriptions from now until Tuesday ahead of my World Cup coverage from Qatar.

And semantically, you can say, well, there's still kafala, there isn't still kafala. But what has happened is that some of those things that were in place are no longer in place, such as your employer getting your passport. Your employer is not supposed to be able now to prevent you from changing jobs. You're supposed to be able to leave the country when you want to leave the country, regardless of what your employer says. There has been a minimum wage that has been put into effect in Qatar, a minimum wage that essentially amounts to about $275 a month plus money for room and board. So there have been these changes. The issue has been, from the moment that they were announced the issues have been about implementation, about enforcement. And that's a more complicated story.

Grant Wahl:

I mean, what's really struck me in my own reporting, including this year from Qatar, is that some of these union leaders, global trade union leaders, have kind of done a 180 about Qatar in the last eight years or so. And that includes Sharan Burrow, who both you and I interviewed eight years ago when she was saying stuff like Qatar was a slave state and shouldn't host the World Cup. And now when you and I interview her, she's working with the Qatari government and saying very positive things about them. But that's still in contrast to people you and I have spoken to at human rights groups about the situation today on the ground for workers in Qatar. And I'm wondering, what do you make of this near-180 by the union leaders?

Jeremy Schaap:

I mean, that's a very striking element of this story and the story of how things have changed, have evolved in Qatar, what has changed, what has not, which we keep coming back to. And you mentioned Sharan Burrow, and she was the most outspoken, the most vocal critic of Qatar and the kafala system, as the head of the International Trade Union Confederation, representing hundreds of millions of workers around the globe. And she, I would argue more than anyone else, raised the alarms about what was going on and what the human cost of the 2022 World Cup was going to be if change didn't come. And then, well, as we just mentioned, the ILO reached these agreements with Qatar. And since then, the ITUC, under Sharan Burrow, they have said that they are pleased with the reforms.

And then as you said, there are other people, important people in the community who have been dissatisfied with the extent of the reforms. Whether you're talking about Nicholas McGeehan, who's one of the leading researchers on Qatar, people from Human Rights Watch, where he used to work, and I think it's FairSquare is the organization that he runs now, Amnesty.

And if you read the reports from the most prominent human rights organizations in the world, Grant, what they say is there has been change. There has been change. I think the exact wording maybe in the most recent Amnesty International report is life has improved, work conditions have improved for the 2 million-plus migrant workers in Qatar. But it hasn't gone far enough. There are still too many ways in which they are not able to address their grievances, although there are these labor courts and there's a fund set up to compensate those who aren't being compensated properly, when pay is withheld, etc.

And then there are the questions as well about working conditions and what the law says and what happens in fact. We spoke to Max Tuñón, who is the head of the ILO office in Doha, and you go into their office in Doha and they've got a lot of literature about the ways in which workers are now supposed to be protected from the extreme heat in Doha. And these laws have been put in place, and it's still a hard place to work. These are still very tough conditions. So it's this push and pull between the law and enforcement. Between improved conditions and the scrutiny in particular of workers who are directly working on World Cup projects and those who are not. There are these different cohorts, right? And if you're working on specifically a World Cup project and there's a lot of scrutiny of that, it's under the microscope, it might be different from if you're a foreign worker in Qatar working in something unrelated to the World Cup, if you're in the natural gas industry.

So as you know, these things are complex. I think what it comes down to, there's some big issues still. These foreign workers don't have the right to form unions, basically. The right to unionize is something that is still not available for most workers. The way that people have told us employers have retaliated against workers who protest the conditions in which they're working or when their pay is withheld, what happens there.

And it's a tough life, right, Grant? I mean, think about what these millions of workers have sacrificed to build better lives for their families, wherever they come from: South Asia, Africa, Southeast Asia. And it's not just the workers, right, working on World Cup projects, but all the thousands of domestic workers, primarily women from the Philippines.

And I think the point has always been, right, the world should know how difficult it is for these people, the lives and the work conditions, what it's like for them. And Qatar is one of the richest countries in the world. Qatar, by some measures, by almost any measure, it's one of the richest countries in the world. And the idea's always been that they can do better by these workers.

Grant Wahl:

When I went to Qatar in February to speak to migrant workers, I was glad that I didn't have video cameras with me because it made the workers more comfortable to speak with me. How difficult was it for you to go to Qatar with cameras and a crew and interview migrant workers who could be in danger for speaking honestly to you?

Jeremy Schaap:

Yeah, and it got tougher this time. Last time when we went eight years ago, we were able pretty much to just walk into a labor camp unannounced and to do some spot interviews. We were able to interview people who did conceal their identities on camera. We were able to speak to people on the Corniche there, the waterfront area that's going to be a big central meeting place. And we spoke to workers, to what extent they feel comfortable talking on camera, all that, who said, "Hey, I'm happy here. I made this choice. And I'm making money and I'm able to send it back home. This is why I came here."

And frankly, the extent to which anytime you do ‘man on the street,’ ‘women on the street’ interviews, that they are representative of a larger reality, that's always difficult to determine. But anecdotally, we met more people this time who said their situation is better. And that corresponds with what you would expect. There have been changes. It's about respecting the dignity of these workers, about honoring the language of the law now, about enforcement, about consequences for bad actors among employers who don't treat them well. And those are the issues, as you know, that we really try to explore here and to untangle.

Grant Wahl:

For your episode, ESPN went to speak to workers' families in Bangladesh and Nepal. How do you find these families?

Jeremy Schaap:

Well, in Nepal, Nepal was in 2014. This time the families we spoke to were in Bangladesh, and we worked specifically with a freelance journalist in Bangladesh who has been working on these issues with other news organizations for many years, who's able to identify for us and confirm who these families are, who these workers are, and then help us on the ground arrange interviews with these people, which I conducted from where I'm sitting right now in my home.

Last time, we physically went. I didn't go to Nepal. Our producer/director eight years ago, she went to Nepal, she spoke to people in Nepal. This time we had a crew with our interview subjects in Bangladesh, but I was sitting here in Connecticut doing these interviews. And that's another interesting way in which the world has changed in the last eight years.

Grant Wahl:

I get this question a fair amount. Would ESPN have done investigative reporting like this on Qatar if ESPN were still the U.S. English-Language World Cup rights holder and not Fox Sports?

Jeremy Schaap:

My answer to that is yes. And I believe that to the core of my being. I mean, all you have to do is look at ESPN and the rights that we do have and the way that we cover the leagues that we do own rights to, whether it's the NFL or NBA or NHL. And you know, Grant, if you talk to people in those leagues, for instance, they are often quite displeased with the journalism that we do at ESPN. I mean, I host Outside the Lines now, and how many segments have we done in the last year and a half about issues with the Washington Commanders? How many segments have we done about the cases against Deshaun Watson? I mean, look at the reporting from so many of my colleagues, Don Van Natta and Seth Wickersham and Tisha Thompson on the NFL. From my colleagues Mark Schlabach and Paula Lavigne on college football, which of course we have relationships with.

It's not exactly the same thing, but we basically had everything up through 2014. We went to South Africa, I think one of the most powerful stories we've ever done was about anti-lesbian violence in South Africa.

Grant Wahl:

With soccer players.

Jeremy Schaap:

And corrective rape, with soccer players. And that's a tough story. And those were some of the toughest interviews in terms of the emotions and what we were asking people to share with us that I've ever been a part of. And that was our big story, frankly, investigative journalism story leading up to the South African World Cup. Was it specifically, I say it's a little bit different because it's not about the South African government per se, right? It's about violence perpetrated by private individuals. But I just don't think we shy away from tough reporting.

Grant Wahl:

Which leads to my last question here. It's not exactly about Qatar, it's more about FIFA. And that question is, you've covered this story for quite a while over the years. Has FIFA changed, in your opinion, after the U.S. Department of Justice investigation? Is today's FIFA any different than Sepp Blatter's FIFA in your opinion?

Jeremy Schaap:

That's a very good question, Grant. And as you know, we did a big kind of exposé on FIFA with all the accusations of vote-buying and all the shenanigans behind the presidential elections, all of that stuff back in 2015. And of course, Blatter was at that point forced out, after having been reelected. You probably remember better than I do the exact sequence of events. And then there are all the arrests, Sam Borden at the Baur au Lac [hotel] in beautiful Zürich and all of the trials and all of the plea bargains and all of that stuff, cleaning house. But I'll tell you the truth, I just haven't covered FIFA as closely the last few years as I did at that time.

I guess most of us in this business are fairly cynical in nature. I guess that's not really fair to say. Let me put it this way. Having not spent as much time concentrating on FIFA, look, I can talk about them in the context of some specific things like Qatar, like the fact that they won't even respond essentially when people say we should create a compensation fund for the workers who have made this event possible where you're going to make a $3.4 billion profit. And they're like, well, what do they say? What do they say, Grant? They don't say anything, right?

Grant Wahl:

Yeah.

Jeremy Schaap:

Infantino, I was at the election where he won back in, I guess that was January '16. I don't know.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah. I mean, that's a fair answer. I mean, I don't totally know either. What I would say from what I do know is I interviewed Infantino around that election back in 2016, and he seemed different a bit from Blatter, but he sort of used the Sepp Blatter playbook to consolidate his power, which is basically give as much money as possible to every national soccer association in the world, especially the smaller ones, and turn that into votes. And he's likely to win another term later this year. I guess we haven't seen another sting operation of arrests since he took over quite like the dramatic one that the U.S. Department of Justice did.

Jeremy Schaap:

Right. But by the way, there wasn't one for the first 20 years of the Sepp Blatter reign either, right? 17 years, right? I don't know. I mean, Gianni Infantino is someone who comes from the world of FIFA, though. I mean, I know he was technically UEFA, but he comes from that world.

Grant Wahl:

Right.

Jeremy Schaap:

And I'm just not qualified to answer the question. I don't want to cast aspersions. But when I think of FIFA still, I think there's still some problematic things going on.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah. After this World Cup, they will have gotten through the Russia World Cup and the Qatar World Cup, and then they will have the shared North American World Cup in '26. And I'm not saying there won't be anything to investigate around that, by the way, either. Maybe there will be. They've picked generally less problematic countries to host women's World Cups, it seems like.

Jeremy Schaap:

Well look, I mean, when you think about Infantino though, I am thinking about what he said a few months ago about the laborers in Qatar, he had that moment. What did he say? Something about, well, I think they're proud of the work that they've done, kind of deflecting questions about the human cost. And I would say he's right. I think they are proud of the work they've done. That's not the point when we're talking about FIFA and its responsibility to them.

And one last thing that I want to emphasize. I'm sorry, I'm running on at the mouth here.

Grant Wahl:

No, go ahead.

Jeremy Schaap:

But yeah, I just think it's important to remember, and I think you know this too, right? When you're there and you meet these workers and you see the conditions in which they live and they work, that these guys, and I don't think I really processed this the last time I was there. This is heroic. You are sacrificing. You are living in these conditions, you're making this choice, you're working in these temperatures because you want to help your family. And you're going away for years, sometimes many, many years away from them. Giving all of that up, giving up your home, giving up your family so that you can make their lives better, provide for them, send your kids to school, feed your family. And they deserve to be treated humanely. That's what we're talking about.

Grant Wahl:

Jeremy Schaap’s ESPN E60 episode, “Qatar's World Cup,” on the controversy surrounding the selection of Qatar to host the upcoming World Cup, debuts this Sunday at 8:30 PM Eastern on ESPN. It will be available for on-demand streaming on ESPN+ after the initial airing. Jeremy, thank you.

Jeremy Schaap:

Thank you, Grant.

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The Interview: Javier "Chicharito" Hernández

Grant Wahl — Wed, 19 Oct 2022 17:13:10 GMT

(Photo by Shaun Clark/Getty Images)

Javier “Chicharito” Hernández and I go back a long ways. We did a series of long interviews in 2016 and 2017 that formed the chapter for my last book. He has gone into minute detail explaining to me how he plays the game. And on Tuesday we had another long one-on-one interview, which is below. Paid subscribers to GrantWahl.com can read all of it today, and the audio version will be on the Fútbol with Grant Wahl Podcast on Thursday.

Grant Wahl:

The LA Galaxy meets crosstown rival LAFC in an MLS quarterfinal on Thursday night at 10:25 PM Eastern on FS1 and Fox Deportes. Our guest now is Javier Chicharito Hernández of the LA Galaxy. Javier, it's great to speak to you again. Thanks for coming on the show.

Javier Hernández:

Thank you, Grant.

Grant Wahl:

So I am legit excited about this game on Thursday. I was at the U.S. Open Cup game earlier this year between your two teams, LA Galaxy and LAFC. It got really nasty during the game and after the final whistle when your team won. How much do your two teams dislike each other?

“I haven’t retired from the national team. I will see in the future.”

Javier Hernández

Javier Hernández:

I mean, it's a way of putting the question, but I don't care how much we dislike or not. We just want to win. They are in our way to the sixth [title]. So it doesn't matter who's going to be in front of us, we want to go in and try to win. Fortunately we're going to play in LA. It's not in our home. It's not in our stadium. But we're going to play in our city. So we're glad about that. But yeah, the rivalry, you know how intense it is, so we're very happy that everyone, same as us, we're going to live that experience.

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Grant Wahl:

So there is a famous photograph of you and LAFC's Carlos Vela together at the Chivas academy in 2003. You are 15 years old in the photograph. He is 14. What do you remember first thinking about Carlos Vela in those days when you were 15 years old?

#TBT Chicharito and Vela playing for Chivas youth team. ","username":"TheColorfulKit","name":"The Colorful Kit","profile_image_url":"","date":"Thu May 03 20:03:20 +0000 2018","photos":[{"img_url":"https://pbs.substack.com/media/DcTDPK6WsAAMLHd.jpg","link_url":"https://t.co/tUN32SfP4S","alt_text":null}],"quoted_tweet":{},"reply_count":0,"retweet_count":91,"like_count":293,"impression_count":0,"expanded_url":{},"video_url":null,"belowTheFold":true}" data-component-name="Twitter2ToDOM">

Javier Hernández:

Yeah, he was going to be one of the greatest for sure. The way that he was playing, he was playing with all these players like myself and against other teams. And his talent and everything was just amazing. And even difficult to describe that he was with so much composure, so much talent. The IQ about the game that he had since then, it's been amazing. That's why the career that he had already and why he's, from my point of view, one of the greatest Mexican players ever.

Grant Wahl:

Now that you and Carlos Vela have played in World Cups together, now that you are the two biggest soccer stars in Los Angeles, how would you describe your relationship these days?

Javier Hernández:

Great. Same. Good. I think it's been a little bit complicated because of Covid. Because when I arrived over here, all the Covid situation, then he has his kids, or his son and his daughter. Then yeah, we haven't spent that much time that we would love to, but we've been in contact so much time. And then in the last three games that we played against each other, after the game, we catch up over here like 10, 20 minutes just chatting after the games.

And that relationship is going to last forever, because we admire each other. We love each other. And we know how much we both experience in our own careers and as well together. But you said it, in the World Cups and then in the national team and then as well here. Even though we are rivals, the admiration, the respect is going to be there always.

Grant Wahl:

I always like asking this question: In your opinion, what is the identity of this LA Galaxy team?

Javier Hernández:

I think the identity of this team is resilience, for sure. I want to use that word because it's one of our most important values inside our team. Because last season we couldn't draw so many games because, as you see as an example only, because we didn't have that resilience. That maturity of when someone's comes first, it's still as much time as is left in the club to try to maintain our style of play, maintain our mindset, maintain our focus, to try to come back from those games. You can see in the last run of the 11 or 12 games that we had in this season with a lot of draws, with a lot of victories, and just one very difficult and painful loss in Vancouver.

So yeah, that's what I think the identities are there. And I think as well, a lot of teams see us like that, because they all know that we have a lot of talent. They all know that we can have a good day. But yeah, last season, in the beginning of this season, they knew that if they didn't score first, probably they will win the games. But now it's completely the opposite. Now we can come back, as you can see in Houston and the last games that I mentioned before. So yeah, I think that the identity is about resilience, about that character and consistency we want to show.

Grant Wahl:

It really seems like Riqui Puig in particular has made a big impact on this Galaxy team since arriving this summer. What have you learned about Riqui so far?

Javier Hernández:

Sure, and Gastón [Brugman] and Martín [Cáceres], I think that center line that we said in Mexico, that we spoke before the World Cup. How do you say it in English?

Grant Wahl:

The spine.

Javier Hernández:

Yeah, the spine, exactly, of soccer. With the goalkeeper, central defender, central midfielder or number 10, or just a striker or strikers. So those are very important ones. And I think these guys came to glue us inside and outside the field as well because the character that they brought with them. It's amazing. We have so much fun. Even though they don't speak so much English yet. But with the Spanish speakers over here, we joke a lot.

We take accountability in a better way. Their European experience as well. And international as well is very big. So yeah, same as Riqui, Martín, and Gastón, and as well, someone that I mentioned as well before the other game in Nashville that I wanted to mention is Douglas Costa. The way that he's been improving, the way that he's committing to the cause because people think that it's very easy to come here and just start scoring and making it is very easy. And we all realize that it's not that easy as a lot of people want to portray it. So yeah, I think Douglas Costa has been improving a lot and he's giving us a lot of his talent and working.

Grant Wahl:

Now, as someone who played for Manchester United and Real Madrid, the world's two biggest clubs, during the satellite television era, you are, I would argue, the most recognizable Mexican person in the history of the world to more human beings. What is it like for you?

Javier Hernández:

I don't know about that, but thank you.

Grant Wahl:

Think about it. Who else would be? I mean, these are the two biggest clubs in the world. What is that like for you to live that? Being the most recognizable Mexican person basically in the history of the world?

Javier Hernández:

With a lot of calm, with a lot of humbleness. Not fake humbleness. What I mean with humbleness is like I don't feel that I have more value or less value than any other human being. I don't care. Fame, I realize, thankfully with my grandfather and with my dad, that fame is a tool. Fame is something that you can utilize with good causes. Create good impact. It's only about that because then in the end, you need to be yourself. You need to be authentic. You need to live your life in the way that you want to live it, regardless if people like what you do, what you decide or not. So yeah, speaking about my profession and my job, I think I had a lot of very solid foundations from my family that they teach me all the things that a lot of soccer players don't learn. That is more in the outside of the game.

A part of my grandfather and my father that they were very focused on the inside of the field, but as well outside of the field. Those two and then the feminine side of my family, they were crucial. They were crucial to just make me feel that it doesn't matter how many goals I scored, it doesn't matter how many people know me, like you mentioned, I'm still Javier Hernández, Chicharito, whatever you want to call me. And this realization that I got after I played with those teams and stuff, it's like, yeah, what's next? It's just what's next. Because after those teams, even when you retire, what's next, you know? You are a soccer player for just a period of time. So yeah, we need to be very focused, and don't forget that we're human beings. That we play soccer. Not the other way around.

Grant Wahl:

So how is the human being Javier enjoying Los Angeles? You've been there for almost three years. Are there some things that you do in Los Angeles that you maybe didn't do when you lived in Europe?

Javier Hernández:

No, it's not about doing things. It's the consciousness that I realize this city brought me my daughter as well. She was born over here two years ago. I had the opportunity to be in the biggest organization in the MLS, in the way the MLS trust in me as well as does this organization. The way that they want to make this league more exposed internationally. And they want to grow a lot. So man, I've been just enjoying a lot of my life. It's not about how much I do, how much I don't do, because honestly the price is to try to be one of the best players over here.

It's my dedication and the professionalism. It is the time that I spend apart after trainings over here in the way that I have to take care of my body, in the way that I train double sessions in the afternoons, in the way that I try to organize my life so the main focus is just soccer. My mental training, my emotional training as well. So yeah, I mean this city brought me a lot of consciousness about myself, what I want to do with my life. And that's the same that I've been doing just with all the maturity and with all the decisions and with more self-esteem, I can say that, yeah, I want to enjoy. I want to give all every single day. I want to push myself beyond those limits that my mind sometimes tells me, to just keep growing and to try to be the best version of myself every single day.

Grant Wahl:

You've had a great season, 18 goals in MLS this season. You're Mexico's all-time leading goal scorer. Mexico needs goals. Tata Martino says he will not bring you to the World Cup next month. What is the feeling that you have because of this?

Javier Hernández:

I mean, the feeling is like I wish them the best. I hope we as a country can break that taboo kind of thing about the fifth game. So they can just go through that and then they can qualify, they can go as far as they can. And yes, as a soccer player, obviously you always want to play World Cup, you always want to be involved with the national team, but as well you need to respect it when you are not taken in consideration. So we need to move on. I need to be focused on myself, and I need to keep playing in the best way possible if I want to be calling up in the future.

Grant Wahl:

I guess that was one question I have. You have not retired from the Mexican national team. And I figured that's for a reason. So where do you stand on that?

Javier Hernández:

Same, that I haven't retired from the national team. I will see in the future. Yeah.

Grant Wahl:

Okay. Moving on here. In terms of if this game against LAFC, which is going to be watched by many people, if this game goes to penalty kicks, would you consider taking a Panenka?

Javier Hernández:

Taking a Panenka?

Grant Wahl:

Yeah.

Javier Hernández:

We'll see as well. We'll see. [laughs]

Grant Wahl:

I guess my question for you is you've had so much success in your career, but in soccer itself, the sport itself is about so many little failures by everybody, right?

Javier Hernández:

Life is about that. Life is about what do you do with your mistakes? And you can see the Mamba mentality. You can speak with LeBron James. You can speak with Derek Jeter that I'm watching his documentary now, with Tom Brady. With a lot of people that are just the greatest of the greatest in their sports. It's what do you do with the mistakes. That's the thing. It's not about what you do with the success, because success is not infinite, as well as the mistakes. You're going to keep making mistakes. The problem is how you learn from them.

And another thing that I learned a lot since I was a kid that my family, I think it's a very good way as well to see about mistakes and stuff is: Try to make different mistakes. What does that mean in the context? If I don't repeat the same mistakes. Because if not, you are not growing. At least in that mistake, try to learn as possible. Don't make that mistake and learn different mistakes. Do different mistakes. So I think mistakes aren't failures, that's a word that people are very scared to say it. And for me it's very dramatic because there's no failures. For me it's just mistakes, mistakes, and mistakes. And as well, you can see, I'm going to use one of the greatest of all time in my sport, a lesson that sometimes soccer or football is like that. Remember the 2008 Champions League final, it was Chelsea against Manchester United. Who scored the first goal? Cristiano Ronaldo? Who was the MVP? Who was the golden ball, and I think golden boot as well of that year? Cristiano Ronaldo. He misses a penalty, and they still won.

Soccer is like that. Soccer is not about, again, heroes and stuff. We need to learn that this sport the same as others, it's about grace areas. Grace, grace, grace. We'll like in this society and then make those systems to just be polarized. You are green, or you are blue. You are completely just to mention the other color, but it's like that. You need to be on the left or in the right, like man, you can take good things from each side and each side has their flaws. Like all of us.

There's even Lionel Messi, he is the GOAT of the GOATs of the GOATs. And then he has things that he needs to improve, but he knows. He hasn't won the World Cup, for example. So there's going to be always something, nothing is enough. So I'm very tired of listening to those words about failure and success and stuff. Even though competition brings that because, of course, if I do an interview after Thursday and I'm eliminated, I'm going to be completely frustrated, sad, angry, and I'm going to tell you that it was a complete failure for this organization and next year we need to bounce back. But that's what competition gives you, is how much you can grow.

Grant Wahl:

You've informed us that you are coming back to the Galaxy in 2023. How much longer do you want to keep playing this sport? And do you want the Galaxy to be your last team?

Javier Hernández:

As long as my body answers to my mind, that's something as well that I learned from my father and my grandfather, is as long as your body still reacts in the correct way, when the mind tells the orders, the commands, you can keep playing of course in a very high level. So yeah, we'll see. And of course, being here in this organization, I'm completely happy. I'm very committed to the cause. I'm very grateful. I'm very responsible about my situation. Then we'll see. We'll see. Of course, I want to maintain my relationship with this organization as long as we can.

Grant Wahl:

I want to finish up here the last couple of minutes with something I call the Rapid-Fire Quiz. And I only do this with the very best players I have ever interviewed. So I've done this with Ronaldo Fenómeno, with Zlatan, with Paolo Maldini, and I love doing this. So I hope you enjoy this as much as I will.

Javier Hernández:

Thank you for considering me one of the best.

Grant Wahl:

First off, what have you achieved in soccer that you are most proud of and why?

Javier Hernández:

Showing that you don't have to be the most talented to be in the top of the top of the top.

Grant Wahl:

Who is the player that you have most admired in your career and why?

Javier Hernández:

That's a very good question because my favorite player ever was Ronaldo Fenómeno, but in admiration, I'll say Cristiano Ronaldo, for sure.

Grant Wahl:

Why?

Javier Hernández:

Because in the way that he has pushed himself to be on the top, and still people don't want to give him credit because he’s not the most talented. There's another one that is more talented in certain ways, in different ways. But for me, talented is not only what you do with the ball, it's what do you do with this [points to his head] and with this [points to his heart]. And people don't want to recognize that because yeah, if Cristiano shows you that he can be on the top and there's a lot of people they don't want to push themselves to be that great.

It's like pointing out the failures that Cristiano did. Another example, like Roger Federer is my favorite tennis player ever. But someone that I admire a part of both difference more is Rafael Nadal as well, in the way that he has competed, in the way that they create that legacy between each other. It's like they live from each other. That's why you saw when Roger Federer retired how Rafael was very devastated because they feed from each other. So yeah, Cristiano Ronaldo.

Grant Wahl:

What is your favorite goal that you have ever scored in your career and why?

Javier Hernández:

I always answer to that question the debut, because without the debut none of this wouldn't happen. And not everyone can say that in their professional debut they score a goal. It's not normal. It's not common. And the other one that I'm going to mention for sure is the goal that I scored in my first World Cup against France, because of my family history that my granddad scored a goal against France as well in the World Cup.

Grant Wahl:

Who is the best defender you have ever faced and why?

Javier Hernández:

I'll say Thiago Silva.

Grant Wahl:

Why?

Javier Hernández:

Because of the intelligence that he shows. He has the aggressiveness and the defensive skills, don't get me wrong. But the intelligence about reading the game, he's one step in front of you. And that's one of my skills as well because I'm not the quickest, I'm not the strongest, I'm not the fastest. I try to be always one step in front of someone to try to score, but he was like in the same way or even ahead of me. So that intelligence, it was the toughest for me. Because then you can face very tough and strong defenders, but they're not as intelligent, so you can just take an advantage. But for him, in the few times I played against him in Brazil, he was very, very difficult.

Grant Wahl:

Who is the best teammate you have ever had and why?

Javier Hernández:

It's very difficult. It's very difficult. But names that come to my mind, I will just throw names. It's Ramón Morales, Patrice Evra, Miguel Layún, Keylor Navas, Sergio Ramos, Luka Modric, Pepe, Iker Casillas. Yeah, I think with those.

Grant Wahl:

Is there any particular common thread in those players that you say them?

Javier Hernández:

Yeah, because all of them, they all had a very big influence. Personal. They took their time, and even though probably with some of them it wasn't like a long relationship, but they took their time to try to help me in certain ways, in certain moments in my life, those players in particular.

Grant Wahl:

Who's your favorite player in the world today and why?

Javier Hernández:

Today? My favorite player today. My top three will be Luka Modric, Kylian Mbappé and Kevin De Bruyne.

Grant Wahl:

Any particular reason?

Javier Hernández:

Because I like watching them play. They play very good. I will buy a ticket to go and watch them play, for sure.

Grant Wahl:

Javier Hernández and the LA Galaxy meet crosstown rival LAFC in the MLS quarterfinal Thursday night, 10:25 PM Eastern on FS1 and Fox Deportes. Javier, thank you as always. That was a really enjoyable conversation.

Javier Hernández:

Thank you very much, Grant. Take care.

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The Interview: Jermaine Jones

Grant Wahl — Tue, 11 Oct 2022 17:51:45 GMT

Jermaine Jones starred in the World Cup the last time the USMNT played in it (Photo by Stuart Franklin - FIFA/FIFA via Getty Images)

Jermaine Jones will always tell you how he feels. I appreciate that. More than two years had passed since our last interview, so it was good to catch up with a guy who starred for the U.S. in World Cup 2014. He’s making his way down the coaching path these days, working as an assistant on the U.S. Under-19 men’s national team after doing the hard work to earn a UEFA Pro coaching license. We talk about all of that below, including his thoughts on the current USMNT as it prepares for the World Cup.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is Jermaine Jones. He starred in the 2014 World Cup for the U.S. men's national team and had a 19-year pro playing career in Europe and MLS. He's now an assistant coach for the U.S. Under-19 men's national team, the holder of a UEFA Pro coaching license and a TV analyst. He's also starting a mentorship program with young players and coaches, and he'll be working in media at the World Cup in Qatar. Jermaine, it's great to speak to you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Jermaine Jones:

Thanks for having me, man.

Jermaine Jones on whether the current USMNT has a Jermaine Jones who puts fear into opponents: “I don’t want to compare myself that there’s somebody else like me, because I don’t believe there is somebody with the personality like me. I don’t want to say something bad about people, but I think the closest one you can say is Weston [McKennie].”

Grant Wahl:

How are you? Let's start with that. How are you? It's been a while.

Jermaine Jones:

Yeah, it's been really a while. I'm doing good. I’m just being around, just doing my things, working on stuff, trying to get stuff running and focusing on the coaching side. It's been a journey, but it's coming there.

Grant Wahl:

Congratulations on your role as an assistant with the Under-19 men's national team. How did that come about?

Jermaine Jones:

We were talking about it, and I saw the guys like Brian [McBride] and Earnie Stewart. I saw them at the games when I did TV work for ESPN. We just chatted a little bit in what's going on in life and I said, "Yeah, I'm doing my coaching badges and I'm looking to do TV, but my main point is I want to coach." They asked me if I would be interested. I was running for the 19s job, and at the end they made the decision to give it to the head coach Marko [Mitrovic], what was good for me, because he had more experience and I was good to be his assistant and can see and learn from him, and then they told me that at one point they will give me the 16s, so still an open job, so we will see.

GrantWahl.com is reader-supported, and this is how I make my living. Quality journalism requires resources. The best way to support me and my work is by taking out a paid subscription now.

Grant Wahl:

Well, it's cool to see you getting into coaching. You obviously have a tremendous amount of experience in this sport. What have you done so far in your role with U.S. soccer? What teams have you worked with, places you've gone?

Jermaine Jones:

I've been most of the time at the U-19s because that's my main group, but then I went to Texas, Frisco, the first time to go on a showcase and just watch games, and I was excited about it because just to see how much talent you have in these age groups and in general, if you go lower down with our groups and you see the players, it's unbelievable how much talent we have in this country. It's just now for me, excited to work with these young groups, with these young men, and give back my experience that I had over the years.

Grant Wahl:

How much time do you spend in this coaching role with U.S. Soccer?

Jermaine Jones:

I'm just fresh, so I would say not even a year, but it's a lot of work and I'm learning for myself. There's so much behind it. A lot of times you think like, oh, I'm coming back from playing career and it's easy to go out there and just do whatever I knew from the field, but it's the opposite. You dig in, you learn about philosophies, identities and how you can create your own vision on the game. U.S. Soccer helped me with that to give me a chance to lead the 19s.

Grant Wahl:

I don't know how many listeners to this show are aware of what goes into getting a UEFA Pro coaching license. It's really involved. What all did you have to do to earn that?

Jermaine Jones:

I started straight after I retired, because I had a conversation with people from MLS and USL and I told everybody I want to coach at one point, but I will dig in now and start with my coaching badges. And I started with my U.S. soccer B, and I think when I look back four years ago, I started with everything, and it's going back to school. I had to go back there. Especially with the UEFA license, I had to fly to Northern Ireland back and forth and stay there for weeks and do training and all that stuff.

But it was good, because I enjoyed it because I saw a lot of ex-players who I played against and all that locker room talk and going back. That pushed me more back into, oh, I want to do this. That's my calling, the player management side on coaching. But you're digging into really learning the system on a different view on the game.

Grant Wahl:

Did you have to do one big project or a big written project for your UEFA Pro license?

Jermaine Jones:

Yeah, you have to do it already with the B and A. You’re going back and you have tasks that you have to put to the table, and the UEFA one was then, too. One was to analyze the game Paris against Man City, which was actually a good one, and then there's other tasks. You have to do your own training sessions. There's a lot of stuff you have to do, but everything is related to soccer, so it's not that difficult. I said for me, the moment when I stepped into this, I said what I want to learn is I want to learn to do all the PowerPoints, all that stuff, because as players you're not focused on that.

I wanted to know what's behind the soccer world in coaching, because we're just seeing the front part. There's a little bit of coaching on the field, but there's so much more behind it. So I wanted to dig in, learn all that side, because I knew the side on the field, that would be easy for me because I've been there for 19 years and I did it day in, day out, but I wanted to know how you set up training sessions, how you write your own philosophy on the game, all that stuff. It was a journey, but finally I have my pro license and I'm ready to go.

Grant Wahl:

If I were to ask you what's your coaching philosophy and how do you want your teams to play, what would you say?

Jermaine Jones:

A lot of times, people would think that I'll come down and say I want to be aggressive and all that stuff, but it's completely the opposite. I want to control the game. We have counterpressing. I'm a person who focuses on three zones in the game. There's the zone one, zone two, zone three, and you have to transition between that. But I would say I want to control the game. I want to dictate, especially in zone three when we lose the ball. I want to counterpress.

Grant Wahl:

Why is it, do you think, I've always wondered this. The NBA, there's no such thing as coaching licenses, but at elite level soccer, they require them and a lot goes into it. Why do you think soccer is different from the NBA?

Jermaine Jones:

I don't want to compare everybody. It's their own business, but I can say in the first place, I was thinking when I retired that it would be easy coaching, but it's not. I always say that people should go through that journey of doing their license and finishing up their license and especially the highest one. It's a journey. The contacts you see again, the people you meet, the stuff you learn, it just helps you. It's not against anything, it's just helping you to be ready for that first job.

I had offers and talks with people when I retired and I just had my UEFA A license, but I'll be honest, I was not ready, because I was ready to go on the field, but would have to need an assistant who runs everything, and that's not what I want. If I'm in charge, I want to give the people the ideas and the philosophies what I said that they understand exactly, and I'm on the page to know, okay, that's what I want to play. That's what I'm giving out to all other people. Instead of I'm just the face and somebody else has to run everything because I have no idea.

Grant Wahl:

In your playing career, you played at the highest levels in the World Cup, in the UEFA Champions League. Where do you want to go with coaching? Do you want to go to those high levels?

Jermaine Jones:

You always reach for the highest, but I'm realistic and I said I'm a young coach, I'm just starting. But my goal is, of course, at one point to coach a top team in a top league or in a top environment. But realistic right now, it's just step by step, seeing what comes next, and just learning. Take it as a journey.

Grant Wahl:

Now you also are doing a mentorship program, among other things, with young players and coaches. Could you explain a little bit more about what that is about?

Jermaine Jones:

Yeah, so when I started coaching, especially with the U-19s, I saw that there's a lot of kids in the system who relate to the same lifestyle, the same background where I came from, and sometimes we don't understand them, and that's when I stepped in. A lot of the kids put their hands kind of like, oh, he's somebody like us. I connected straight with them and I became the assistant coach, but then maybe I would say like a big brother, too.

I said, hey, how can I create something where I can be more powerful and support them in making right decisions with agents, when they pick clubs and all that stuff. Because I want to coach, I don't want to be a manager or an agent, so I say, how can I do that in a mentorship program with something? When I looked into it, I was like, oh that's interesting, because you can be like the coach, the mentor, the big brother. That was something I looked more into, and now I'm working to get it done and I'm really excited about it.

Grant Wahl:

Obviously, we saw you on ESPN during World Cup qualifying doing TV analyst work. We've seen you on other TV platforms. Which do you enjoy more, coaching or media?

Jermaine Jones:

Oh, I made it pretty clear from the beginning. I said to everybody, I want to coach. I like this part on coaching, this player management and sitting in the room cutting games and doing all that stuff. I love TV, too, don't get it wrong. It's really enjoyable and it's still connected to the game, so I can still cut games. Most of the time, I did U.S. Soccer games, so I know the players, I know the philosophy of Gregg Berhalter and the idea he wants to play. It's interesting, too. I would say they're pretty close to each other, but being on the field is more my world.

Grant Wahl:

I know you're doing some work for U.S. Soccer now, so I'm not sure how comfortable you are being asked about the senior national team, but I'll ask anyway. How are you feeling about the U.S. men's national team right now with the World Cup starting in November?

Jermaine Jones:

I'm out there, so I will anyways talk about them because I’m calling games of them at the World Cup. But no, I feel really comfortable to talk about it, because I believe in that group, and that's a young group and we’re watching games now, Saudi Arabia or Japan. We all know it's not the easiest games, especially now before the World Cup players are maybe careful because of injuries. That's always in your mind. People have to understand that, especially if you are coming that close to the World Cup. It doesn't matter if you play for your club or for the country. People are careful. But I think you will see a complete different face at the World Cup. I think the team is young. With Gregg Berhalter, I think we have the right coach. He understands the philosophy of U.S. Soccer. He adds his own thoughts into the game.

I think what you can see is that we over the period of qualification games that I was at a game we love is if we can sit and break, we’re maybe not a team who like to control the game, but you can see the games when we played against Jamaica or Costa Rica and we have to do the game, we struggled a little bit. But then if the game is like Mexico where Mexico is maybe making the game and we can just break on them, it's something the young group maybe likes more, but I feel comfortable that they're going into this World Cup and will crush it.

Grant Wahl:

One question I've had at times with this U.S. team is, is there a Jermaine Jones on this team, a guy who puts some fear into opposing teams? Do you think there is, and who is it?

Jermaine Jones:

I don't wanna compare myself that there's somebody else like me, because I don't believe there is somebody with the personality like me. I don't want to say something bad about people, but I think the closest one you can say is Weston [McKennie], who is coming close to that. But you have a lot of talent. The group is packed with good, good players, and maybe they're not like Jermaine Jones, but they have different qualities.

Sometimes I always say, we had this conversation I think with Hérculez Gómez and Kasey Keller and Seba on set that we say, sometimes you need somebody who just steps in and gives that little bit, that woo going through the group, because people are like, oh okay, he's there. But they're still a young group so you never know how they build it up. But I'm looking forward, and I think it will be a good World Cup for them.

Grant Wahl:

What sort of media are you going to be doing? Has that been announced yet in Qatar?

Jermaine Jones:

Yeah, I will be definitely on set and calling U.S. games for sure.

Grant Wahl:

Nice. I'm looking forward to that. Whenever we find out who that's for, that's awesome news. Great to hear. I'm going to be in Qatar myself as long as I get my clearance to get into the country, which fingers crossed. Are there any U.S. players that you would like to see get more playing time with the national team than they are right now?

Jermaine Jones:

I think that the guys are really, when I look at Adams is doing a good job now in Leeds. I think he's the heart of this team. If he's on 100%, I think he can dictate the team in a positive way in the front and in the back. You have all the big guys playing. I think you have to look now with Christian, with Chelsea, if he's getting time over there to get him happy for the World Cup. Then I think there's…? What's his name? In Union Berlin?

Grant Wahl:

Yeah, Jordan Pefok.

Jermaine Jones:

Pefok, yeah. I think he's somebody we should have on the radar because of what he's doing over there. He's first place with Union Berlin in the Bundesliga, and he scores and he's playing good. I think that's somebody I think would be interesting to see at the first team.

Grant Wahl:

Most of these young U.S. players have not played in a World Cup before. You have played in a World Cup. What advice would you give to these young U.S. players right now?

Jermaine Jones:

I would say just suck it in. Take every game as your final game. It's the biggest tournament. It's the biggest party in the world, and you are part of it. That's something I always told myself, that it's not the people just in the stadium, it's millions of people watching you playing. You just can't see the videos when you see the fans back home with how they party everywhere and they have the events out there and the public viewings and all this stuff. That, as a player, you have to know, and then come on, you represent your country in front of millions of people, so there's nothing better. At the end it's a game. Go out, enjoy it, have fun with it. You battle with the best and if you want the best stage, now you’ve got the best stage and now it's on you.

Grant Wahl:

I can't believe it's been eight years since you played in the 2014 World Cup, and that was the last time the U.S. men have played in a World Cup. What are the things that stand out the most in your memory of your experience of that 2014 World Cup?

Jermaine Jones:

I would say it was everything. The moment you travel over to Brazil and you build this brotherhood with your teammates, because you know it's just on you. The guys who are in the bus, the guys who are traveling now over to Brazil at the time, it's on you. People ranked us that we would not come out of the group and all that stuff. You’re like, okay, let's build something. Let's be strong, focus on the first game and see where we can go. There was a lot of talk behind the team is not good enough, this, this. That builds a brotherhood, and I think that was something I loved, and still talking with a lot of guys. It's what you said. It's crazy if you look back. It's eight years ago, and we’re getting so old so fast.

Hey, sometimes I feel like I can play again, but then I go on the field with the 19s and I feel like oh my god, my legs are gone. But it's something you look back and I just enjoyed this whole World Cup because my kids were there. I had the chance to play a World Cup in my career, what I said before. I had the blessing to score a goal, and that's all memories. People don't understand how quick, just because of one World Cup, everything can change in your life. People recognize you, and the soccer in general grew so much in this country since that World Cup. That's something we should all be excited for this World Cup now to support the team and help the team to come as fast as possible, because it's just to develop for our own country to get better in soccer.

Grant Wahl:

Last week I was in Spain and did an interview with Yunus Musah, who has chosen to play for the United States. He could have played for England or Italy or Ghana. You chose to play for the United States. You were eligible to play for Germany. Yunus and I got to talking about how he sort of tapped into his American side even more once he chose to play for the United States. Now that I think about it, I feel like you might have done the same thing. Do you feel like you tapped into your American side at the time you were playing and even until today a lot more once you chose to play for the U.S.?

Jermaine Jones:

No, he's right. I think at one point you really look, and I don't know his background, but for me, it was that I grew up with a German mom in Germany, so I had roots in America, but I didn’t really know where my roots are. If you would see me in Germany, people would say I'm not a German kid. I look more like an American kid, African American kid. So when I had the chance and I had the conversation with Bob Bradley, I always told him, I said, look, I've been not in touch with my dad for a long time, and if this can help me to come back in touch with him because he's in the States somewhere and I know my roots are laying somewhere in Mississippi, and I would like to play for this country, and I will put everything down to represent this country the best way I can.

At the time, I think I was one of the highest players. I played Champions League every year, and I make the switch and I don't look back and I look back now with a smile. And for me, it was the right decision to do it because I think I was the first one who switched countries to go and play for the United States. You can see what came after me. That's something good. We have grown as a country and we are getting better. There's so much going on in the soccer world right now in the U.S. and you see it with MLS NEXT Pro now and everything, what we develop and what we give into, it's just developing.

I said this already, in 2014 when I retired, I said when I came back to the States that if we’re smart enough here in the United States that we can create something really, really big and we can be one day at the soccer world the number one, because of the talent you have, the cities you have, the owners you have. You have people now, you see they're going over and buying Chelsea and Liverpool and Manchester United. You have people who are interested in the game, and it's just a matter of time that they invest their money to the teams here in the United States. I said this already in 2014, and a lot of stuff is coming exactly how I said it. Just back in the days people said, he's crazy. He's out of his mind.

Grant Wahl:

I get asked the question just in public a fair amount of: Will the U.S. men win a World Cup in our lifetime? I realize you can make a reasonable argument for yes or for no. One thing I do tell them is in 2002 the U.S. got to the quarterfinals and outplayed Germany and could have gotten even farther in that tournament. Your team got out of the group in 2014. Be honest, if someone asks you that question, will the U.S. men win a World Cup in our lifetime? What do you think?

Jermaine Jones:

A hundred percent. Why not? Why not? But to just win a World Cup, it's not just the teams we see right now, it's the basics. We have to look at what is coming. How strong is our youth system? How we develop our youth system, what are we doing in there. You can see now the market getting so strong that you have all these European teams coming over and trying to get our young talent to get them already earlier to Europe so that they can develop and be over there. That means that the whole package is starting to develop and getting more recognized in the world, and that means something. Of course we can win the World Cup at one point, and I'm sitting here and saying yes, and that should be our number one priority to say at one point we want to win the World Cup.

We don’t just want to be part of it. We are a big, big country. If you look at what I said, if you go to the youth systems and we are beating right now with the U-19s and we played England, we played top teams, and they had way more talent from the paper on the name because the kids played in big teams. But if you look at the quality of the players we have in the youth system, there's more and more coming. I think our first team is the youngest team going to the World Cup, so that's something, too. They will stick together for the last couple of years, and you would just add pieces to it to make them maybe better after the World Cup and then see if we get the best tournament and the biggest party back in our country, what can happen.

Grant Wahl:

Jermaine Jones is now an assistant coach for the U.S. Under-19 men's national team. He's also a TV analyst and the holder of a UEFA Pro coaching license among other things. Jermaine, it's always great to talk to you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Jermaine Jones:

Thank you for having me, my man.

The Interview: Matt Turner

Grant Wahl — Tue, 27 Sep 2022 15:27:04 GMT

Matt Turner was the best U.S. player in the loss to Japan (Photo by ANP via Getty Images)

MURCIA, Spain — You always know you’re going to get a good interview when you sit down with Matt Turner. And the U.S. and Arsenal goalkeeper didn’t disappoint when we caught up at the team hotel ahead of Tuesday’s friendly against Saudi Arabia, the last game for the USMNT before the World Cup. We hit on a lot here, from the Japan loss aftermath to his quest to be the No. 1 keeper at the World Cup to lots of detail on what it’s like inside Arsenal and going through so many huge life changes—getting married, becoming a father, moving to England—in the last year.

Grant Wahl:

We are here in Murcia, Spain, with the U.S. men's national team, and our guest now is US goalkeeper Matt Turner. Great to see you, Matt. Thanks for coming on the show.

Matt Turner:

Yeah, thanks for having me back.

Grant Wahl:

We're in Spain. It's definitely warmer here than it was in Germany. Tough loss on Friday to Japan. What's the mood in the team now that you've had a couple days here?

“One of my [Arsenal] teammates was talking about how he used spend vacation in Florida a little bit when we were down in Orlando. And he was like, ‘Man, I love Lucky Charms.’ So next time my parents came over, I had them bring a box of Lucky Charms, and I left them in his locker.” — Matt Turner

Matt Turner:

Yeah, I think the message is pretty clear. It's not a performance that we can accept, but at the same time it's sometimes important to have games like that, to sort of show you the way forward. So I think the reaction to that game is going to be pretty telling for this team, especially in World Cup tuneups. If you have a bad game in the World Cup, obviously, margins are thin, but you have to be able to bounce back, and you can't compound things. So I think it's important for this group to learn lessons, given how young we are, and it's not all sunshine, butterflies, and rainbows out there in the world game.

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Grant Wahl:

Are there any additional thoughts on the Japan game? Have the coaches had you watch any of it?

Matt Turner:

Yeah, yeah, we watched it back. I think there's loads of individual meetings, and then we also have meetings as a full team, where the coaching staff gives their thoughts on things. And the players return the favor, and we have a platform where we can give our thoughts on things, and I think it was a really useful exercise to talk about it, go through it, and then put it in the past and put it behind us and learn and move forward.

Grant Wahl:

Is there anything that came out of those, in the sense of if we in future games here see pressure like Japan came with, of ways to deal with it?

Matt Turner:

For sure, yeah, for sure, different ways. I think the big thing is identifying how the pressure's coming, where it's coming from, and then just being able ourselves on the field to implement those strategies. We can't as players rely on our head coach to move us around like chess pieces all game. It has to come from the players a bit while we're out there, and I think the overhanging theme of the whole thing is to compete. I think Japan fouled us almost 20 times, and we maybe fouled them five or six times the whole game.

So we definitely lost the physical edge, which is something that this team pretty much has never done in its entirety, especially throughout the World Cup qualifying cycle, for the most part. But you see in those games that you can think about, in World Cup qualifying, where we didn't match or exceed the physicality, we usually struggled to get the results that we deserved. And that was the same message from the Japan game.

Grant Wahl:

It is an interesting one. I visited the Japan Federation a few years ago, and they actually had a trophy case with all their Fair Play trophies from tournaments over the years. And it's a stereotype that Japan plays a certain way, but they actually fouled you quite a bit in this game.

Matt Turner:

Yeah, they definitely were. They're a physical team, a lot of experience, super organized. But a lot of times, they're fouling us in tactical areas on the field, and then they help you up. So yes, they play fair. They play within the boundaries of the game. But honestly, credit to them. They were organized, disciplined, and like I said, they fouled when they needed to. They got physical when they needed to, and they really brought it to us in the game.

Grant Wahl:

Individually, what did you think of your performance?

Matt Turner:

Individually, happy with the performance, mostly. I'm the type of person that never likes to see the ball hit the net, so things that I can maybe tweak a little bit. I think maybe I could organize the defense better after we turned the ball over on the first goal, and then I think the second goal was actually a really special goal. The window that the player had to shoot and be able to score from that angle was super tight, and he was able to thread it through there. So that's one that you tip your cap to.

So overall I'm happy. I think it's a good building block. It was nice to be able to come into the team and fit back in and feel confident about the performance that I put forward. And hopefully more opportunities afoot.

Grant Wahl:

There's going to be one starting goalkeeper at the World Cup. I don't envision that there will be a platoon. I guess that's possible, but I think there's going to be a number one for the World Cup. What is the scenario that you could see earning you the job?

Matt Turner:

I think obviously, this window is a big indicator. From my perspective, to be able to go out there and show that even though I haven't been playing as consistently as I was in MLS, I can still go out onto the field and be mature and show confidence, show consistency, and keep it simple most of all and help my teammates out and be a guy that my teammates can trust. And I think that that's a big thing, because if you look at the successful World Cups that the US has had in the past, goalkeeping had a pretty strong or big part in those World Cups going so well.

So it's an important position. I think that this window is important for me to help continue that trust, because trust is earned, and you have to maintain it. It's not something that you can just do once and then leave and expect it to be the same. So you have to build up that credit. You have to maintain that credit with the guys around you, and they really need to feel that trust if they're going to play to the best of their ability, as well.

Grant Wahl:

I still remember covering that '02 World Cup. Brad Friedel saving two penalty kicks.

Matt Turner:

Two penalties, yeah.

Grant Wahl:

I don't know if anyone's done that in a World Cup before.

Matt Turner:

Yeah, well, if there was ever a guy, it was probably him. So no, I remember him doing that.

Grant Wahl:

Do you think you'll get enough games at Arsenal to be sharp?

Matt Turner:

Yeah, for sure. Between now and the World Cup starting, there's 13 games for Arsenal. Six of them are in alternate competitions: five Europa League and one cup game. So that's six really good opportunities for me to get on the field, not including the seven Premier League games, where obviously, Aaron's playing really, really well right now, in the Prem. We're top of the table, so obviously, you can't expect much to change, in that sense, when it comes to that. But being ready for the opportunities that present themselves.

Plus, I'll be training and working hard every day. That's just who I am, and I know that there's areas in my game I need to always continue to improve upon, and being at Arsenal is helping me to improve upon those things. And if I was in MLS right now, I would end the season in the beginning of October, and then I would have a month off before the World Cup. So there's arguments to be had on both sides, where at least I'll be training and playing some games, and I'll probably play more games than most between now and then.

Grant Wahl:

You played in the Europa League game for Arsenal. Has there been a specific communication with you from Arsenal that you can expect to play in Europa League games and cup games?

Matt Turner:

That's not really the way they operate. They're not just the type of club, and Mikel is not the type of coach to tell you, "Yes, no matter what, you have all these games." So I think the conversation before the first one was that I've been training well, been working really hard. They're very pleased with where I'm at, and I've earned the right to play in this game.

And then from there, I can't just stroll out there and do whatever and expect to play all of them. I have to continue to, like I said before, build that credit, build that trust with my teammates around me, and most of all win games. So I think they're never the type of staff or club to deal in absolutes, and so for me, it's just taking the opportunities that I get and making the most of them on the field.

Grant Wahl:

Was it cool to play for Arsenal in Europe and make your competitive debut in that game?

Matt Turner:

Yeah, absolutely. It was definitely really cool, and I'm not sure it really hit me until I was there and seeing the fans and everything. I was just trying to play it in my mind as like, "Ah, it's just another game. It's just another game." But then you get there and you see the traveling support that Arsenal has is amazing. You see the fans that Zurich had out there. The stadium was super loud. It wasn't a Central American stadium, but it was pretty dang loud, and that was pretty cool.

So yeah, I think I didn't really have the chance to soak it all in, because at halftime, we get told that Queen Elizabeth II had passed, and then that puts it all into perspective. And being an outsider amongst all that was pretty interesting, because in America, we don't have a monarchy. We don't have that, but to see how much she meant to a lot of people and to see how it affected people in different ways was pretty eye-opening. And I think that that's what my debut turned into, was a period of mourning, really.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah. What has the overall adjustment been like? You've had a lot of changes in your life over the last year. You got married. You're a father. You've moved to London. You're playing for Arsenal. What stands out to you about the move and the adjustment?

Matt Turner:

I'd say the biggest thing for me is I've always been so close to my family and my friends, and being apart from them is more challenging than I thought it would be. Because yes, even though I was in Boston, everyone else is in New Jersey, it was still close enough where my parents could come to most of my games. My friends could make a quick trip up via train or car and come see me. But obviously, I think if it was just Ashley and I that had moved to London, I would have no complaints, nothing bad to say. But being away from family, coming from where I grew up, 30, 40 family members, all within 10 minutes of each other.

So what I'm used to is when someone has a baby, people go over. They take the baby off your hands for an hour or two. You can go and do whatever you want. So honestly, it's been challenging to adjust to that period, especially right after we first got home from the hospital. But I just give so much credit to my wife for making such a big sacrifice, really, to come over. We knew that we would be isolated a little bit, so obviously, that's been hard for her, and especially when I'm traveling around and that. So she's been my rock through it all, and I owe her a lot. I owe her a lot.

Grant Wahl:

And what part of the city in London are you living in? Is there a particular location, and what have you learned about it?

Matt Turner:

Yeah, we live in North London, so they still call it London, but I have sheep in my backyard. Over the fence, I have sheep back there, so it's pretty far out there, but they still call it London, for some reason. I think anything inside the M25 is technically London. I think that that was pretty eye-opening, as well. You think of England as this place that's been inhabited for so long, but there's really a lot of open area of farmland, and that's been pretty cool to see.

So we live close to the training ground, which has been nice. Only 10, 15 minutes away, so getting to and from training is really, really easy, which is nice. So I don't have to drive that much on the other side, and then we have a few places in London that we like to go to. We're not far from a train that is on the Piccadilly Line, so it can take us pretty much anywhere in London, just in a few stops.

Grant Wahl:

Obviously, Arsenal's off to a great start in the league. What are some of the things you've observed about how things are run inside the team on a day-to-day basis, that have stood out to you the most?

Matt Turner:

I'd say one of the big things is organizationally, from top to bottom, everyone's on the same page. Everyone understands their role and how they can best help the team, and I think even the physios and the guys in the weight room, they want to win. It means just as much to them to win as it does to the players. So everyone's bought into the same message, and I think that that's been a huge culture shift. It feels like in America, sometimes people can ...

And I hate to do this England-versus-America thing, because I never wanted to be that person. But I think sometimes, at least from my experience of where I was, you might not have somebody within the organization. Doesn't really care whether or not you win or lose, and in England, that's been the big difference. So because of that, the intensity of training is super, super high, and I think that's from Mikel. He really wants trainings to be intense, and he wants people to compete. So that way, in games, it's just second nature. You don't even have to think. It's like a chip is in your brain already, of how things are going to go.

Grant Wahl:

I've been watching the All-or-Nothing on Arsenal. I'm a Mikel Arteta fan after watching this, know more about him. Have you watched it, and I don't know, learned anything from it?

Matt Turner:

Yeah, I watched it. It was very interesting, because I signed at the end of January, and so because of that, I was watching every single game religiously the rest of the season. And then I would have almost a weekly check-in with the goalkeeper coach, and we'd talk about Arsenal's game, my game, blah, blah, blah, and go forth.

So then obviously, then you go through an entire pre-season, and then the documentary comes out. So now, I remember my feelings from the outside. Now, I know the people, and then I get to watch a documentary, so it was pretty cool to watch it that way, and what you see there and on that is pretty much what you get. This guy, the gaffer, he cares so much about the team and about each individual, and it's a really good feeling to play for a guy like that.

Grant Wahl:

And I'm also wondering, in my observations, whether it was with the Revolution or with this US team, you get along with a lot of the players in the team and seem to be very well received everywhere you go. Are there any particular guys at Arsenal on the team that you've bonded with so far?

Matt Turner:

Yeah, I hang out a lot with Rob Holding, on and off the field. At first, when I got to Arsenal and I didn't have a car, he lived not too far from me, so he was picking me up, bringing me to and from training, which is really nice, because we got to know each other pretty well. And because of that, sitting around with the other English guys, with Aaron Ramsdale, Ben White, Kieran Tierney. He's not English; he's Scottish. I feel like I have to say that, for the record. So those guys are the ones I sit with on the bus. We play card games and things like that.

But I think in general, as I've said about my story, it's always been why I love this game. Part of why I love this game is how it brings people together, so you don't always want to just hang out with the people who are the most like you or get to know the people who are the most like you. So for me, I like to try to break down the barriers of people who I might not normally talk to, get to know them a little bit better, understand their culture, their story.

Me and Tomiyasu are actually very friendly. We eat lunch together, dinner together at the training ground. And we'll just talk, especially when we had this friendly coming up, and we started hanging out even more and just talking. And creating those relationships and bonds and people is so special, and for me, getting to know people from different backgrounds, their stories and their cultures, is special to me. So that's part of why I love the game.

Grant Wahl:

And we've talked at length before about your remarkable story to get from where you were to where you are now. How often do you step back and actually think about that?

Matt Turner:

Not too often, really. I think for me, the injury I had at the beginning of this year was the perfect amount of time for me to really process everything, because the move had been made. We had qualified for the World Cup, and obviously, with the personal life things, my wife was getting ready to leave, and my son was getting even closer to being born. So I think during that period was really, career-wise, the time I needed to just take a breath, because if I didn't get hurt then, I would have been going non-stop now for almost two-and-a-half years, with really no off-season. It can burn people out, without having that little bit of break. But to have that, even though it was spent recovering an injury, which is mentally taxing within itself, it at least allowed me the opportunity to reflect a little bit on how far I'd come. So that was good, and I could leave that behind afterwards and focus on the family stuff that was coming up.

Grant Wahl:

Have you told many people in England your story and explained? I don't know whether it's teammates or anybody or media or whoever?

Matt Turner:

Yeah, no, not a whole lot yet, not a whole lot yet. Some of the teammates, yeah, and I don't think anybody really knew that my story was like that. But I'm always kind of a thoughtful person, like, yes, caring. I won't name any names, but for example, one of my teammates was talking about how he used spend vacation in Florida a little bit, when we were down in Orlando. And he was like, "Man, I love Lucky Charms." So next time my parents came over, I had them bring a box of Lucky Charms, and I left them in his locker. So just little things like that.

But I analyze things from a very cerebral side, and having gone to university for four years is a pretty rare thing in the locker room, the locker room I'm in right now. So it's part of who I am, so I'm not afraid to talk to people about it here and there. But yeah, when people hear my story, or at least a little excerpt from it, they're pretty dumbfounded. So it's pretty cool to see that.

Grant Wahl:

What would it mean to you to be on the field at the World Cup?

Matt Turner:

I think it would mean a lot to me, but more so for people out there, just to see that anything is possible if you really, really care. And I hate to sound cliche, but if you really care about something, you can forge a pathway forward in that field, in whatever it is. It's not just about soccer. It's not just about football. It's about life. So for me, I dedicated my life to continuing to improve on something that many people had told me I didn't really have a chance in and getting addicted to continuously defying what people's expectations of me were.

And that's just all what I want my message to be. I want people to look at my story and think that they can do whatever they want. And I've always said if in 10, 15 years, if one person comes forward and says, "I heard Matt Turner's story, and it really inspired me to just keep going in a difficult moment," then I'll look back on that, and I'll think to myself, "That's all you ever really wanted. You just wanted to help people and show people that things were possible."

Grant Wahl:

Matt Turner is here in Spain with the US men’s national team. Matt, thanks for coming on the show.

Matt Turner:

Again, thanks for having me. It was a pleasure.

The Interview: Jesús Ferreira

Grant Wahl — Sun, 25 Sep 2022 22:10:49 GMT

Jesús Ferreira is the favorite to start up top at the World Cup for the USMNT (Photo by Jose Breton/Pics Action/NurPhoto via Getty Images)

MURCIA, Spain — I love doing in-person interviews with somebody for the first time. That happened when I sat down with Jesús Ferreira this week. He has a great story and a way of expressing himself in two languages that is impressive. I think you will enjoy this, and I know I did.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is Jesús Ferreira, the 21-year-old center-forward from FC Dallas. Jesús, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Jesús Ferreira:

Thanks for having me.

Grant Wahl:

The World Cup is now less than two months away. Being here with the team this week, does the World Cup feel even closer now?

Jesús Ferreira:

Honestly, it does. I mean, at the same time, it doesn't, it's a weird feeling. Being back with the guys and getting to work right away, that's the best feeling. And so the group is excited for the next few days and the next few matches that we have to prepare. And so we're looking forward to that.

Grant Wahl:

You're in a good position to be the guy who starts at the number nine for this US team. What exactly does Gregg Berhalter ask for you to do in his system when you're the guy in the number nine role?

“A lot of people ask me about my dad, but I think the main character in this story could be my mom.” — Jesús Ferreira

Jesús Ferreira:

I think that the nines here in the group that came to this camp are all able to start at any point. And so for me it´s just staying focused and doing my job and what Gregg needs me to do, and that is being able to help out in the combination, coming down and facilitating just the buildup, and also making runs in behind, making sure that the defenders have a hard time defending, and I create space for our wingers. And so it's a lot of movement, a lot of running around, but at the end of the day, that's what the system needs and that's what is going to make the team win.

Grant Wahl:

How complex is Berhalter's system? Because I get the sense that in some ways it might be a bit more complex than some national team coaches.

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Jesús Ferreira:

No, I think he has an idea of how he wants to play and how he wants each player to function. And I think that each player knows what their abilities are and what they can bring to the system. And so that all brings us into the same page and brings us in the same way of seeing the way that he wants to play. And so I think we all are on the same page to following what coach Gregg needs us to do and what works for us.

Grant Wahl:

You've had 18 goals for Dallas in the league this season, you signed a designated player contract earlier this year. You were just named the number one player under age 22 in MLS. Congratulations on all of those things. I guess I'm wondering at the World Cup, millions and millions of people will see you on television. Big clubs from Europe will see you play. What's your level of interest in moving to Europe at some point?

Jesús Ferreira:

That's every kid's dream, is to play for a team in Europe. And obviously that's one of my dreams. I've said it a few times in different interviews that I don't really like to think too much ahead and get ahead of myself. I want to stay in the present, stay in the moment, and focus on what I can do right now. And that right now is with being the best player that I can be for Dallas and for the national team.

Obviously my dream is to one day hopefully play in Europe, and I think that will come at its time. Right now I'm focused at Dallas, making sure that we have a good playoff run. We can do the best that I can. Cause obviously my ultimate goal is to bring something, a silverware to Dallas, because I think that the fans deserve it. The ownership deserves it, and then just the city deserves it. And so my number one goal right now is to bring something to Dallas and then obviously the next one would be to hopefully be in that World Cup roster. And the ultimate one would be hopefully make a jump to Europe one day. But I think that right now it´s just me focusing on what I can control right now, which is being the best version and best player that I can for Dallas and for the national team.

Grant Wahl:

In a press conference this week, you mentioned the work you've done on your mental health and working with a sports psychologist. How did that come about?

Jesús Ferreira:

Obviously when I was younger, just when I first signed, I knew that signing was the easy part and staying on a good level week in, week out was the difficult part. And so for me, once I started playing more, once I got more minutes, I kept noticing that my mood would change whenever things weren't going my way, I was having a bad touch, I wasn't getting any chances, and that kind of took me out of games. I knew that I was locked out of games for five minutes and then those five minutes, anything could have happened. And so I noticed that I needed to change that, my agent noticed that I needed to change that. And so he came to me with an idea of, "Hey, do you want to work with a sports psychologist?" And I was like, "If it's going to help my game, then a hundred percent, I want to do everything that I can to get to the next level of my game."

And that's one of the things that we wanted to try and it's working, obviously. I've seen a lot of improvements. I think that my mood has gone from five minutes, to a minute, to 30 seconds. And so we want to stay less focused on what you're doing wrong and stay more focused on what you can do next, and so I've noticed that I've learned how to just focus on having a good game, making sure that my first touch is good, making sure that my runs are good, my pressing is good, and then focusing on the final product, which is the goal or the assist.

And so just making sure that I wasn't so hard on myself and obviously having a good coaching staff that has helped me, good teammates that have made me realize that I bring more to the team than just goals and assists—my pressing, my buildup, and all of that can help the team win even though I don't score. And so having someone like that that can help me outside of the field and help me make sure that my mental side of the game and mental side outside of soccer is straight and is good and is strong, has helped me huge.

Grant Wahl:

Do you think we've gotten more willing in the sports world, maybe especially in men's sports, to acknowledge that ... "I'm seeing a psychologist, I'm working on mental health"?

Jesús Ferreira:

Yeah. I think that maybe people are afraid to say it, but for me it has made my game so much better that I'm not afraid to say it's something that has helped me. And if it can help other guys and other players younger than me or having the same problem, then I want to help. And I want to be that guy that can say that. Yeah, I'm seeing a sports psychologist, I don't have a problem saying it because it's helping my game every time that I talk to him. And so anytime that I can improve my game, anytime that I can bring my level a little bit higher, I'm going to take the chance on it.

Grant Wahl:

Your father, David Ferreira, was an MLS MVP with Dallas in 2010. He also played for the Colombia national team. In what ways has your father influenced who you are as a soccer player?

Jesús Ferreira:

I think in every way. Being a young guy, just watching him go from country to country, city to city, stadium to stadium, and having different fans in different languages yell his name. That's when I noticed that I wanted to become a soccer player, and just seeing the way that he carried himself, the way that each team that he went to, he put everything on the line for that team. Just seeing the effect that he had as a player on each team that he went to, that made me realize that I want to have that effect on teams.

And so when he came to Dallas, he went all the way to the final, won MVP, and made sure that everybody remembered his name. And so once I signed for Dallas, that's something that I wanted to do. I wanted to make history, but I wanted to make my own history. I wanted people to remember me for Jesús Ferreira and not for my dad. And so I think we're doing a good job there. And so I want to continue. I want to make sure that Dallas remembers us as a great duo and as great soccer players and humans.

Grant Wahl:

What are your memories that stand out when you were growing up of living in different countries where your dad was playing?

Jesús Ferreira:

Yeah, I don't have much because I was so young. We moved a lot when I was younger. We stayed in Brazil the longest, I think it was five years, and just the soccer culture that they had in Brazil is crazy. The fans yelling, you can see that it meant everything to them, every game. If you won a game, it was like a final to them. And if you lost, it was the worst thing ever. And so just seeing how soccer can bring so many people together and seeing how it can affect so many people, it was an amazing feeling.

Grant Wahl:

Do you have any sort of memories of what you might call life-changing moments growing up for you as a kid?

Jesús Ferreira:

I think just making the move to the US. I think that my family and I can agree that that kind of changed and set up for the rest of our lives, us moving to the US. We didn't really think about it too much. We just thought it was going to be another country that my dad went to go play, and soon we will be out of there and we'll go to another country, but it wasn't like that. Once we stepped here, we started learning a new language, we started doing other things, we joined school, we started joining soccer and so kind of everything ... it was a little bit different than the other countries that we were in. And we kind of noticed that we were going to have a life here, in a way.

And so obviously there was a lot of sacrifice that had to be made from my mom's side. My dad having to go back to Colombia to go play and my mom having to decide, "Hey, do we go back to Colombia and just live life there? Or do we sacrifice and just stay here and kind of risk it to see if y'all make it or not?" And so in a way I'm proud that my mom sacrificed everything that she had, because obviously she had no friends in the US. Didn't speak the language, still doesn't speak the language. It's hard for her to have three kids and having to run around from school to school, from practice to practice. And so I give a lot of credit to her that she was able to manage all that and let us chase our dreams. And our dreams were to become soccer players, and what better academy than to do it with Dallas, we saw that there was a lot of signings from young guys, a lot of the coaches loved the young guys and the club loved signing young guys. And so we wanted to pursue that and it came true whenever it happened, we were happy and we kind of told my mom, "We made it."

Grant Wahl:

I was going to ask you about your mom because I assume you get asked about your dad a lot, which makes sense. But what's your mom's name, and what sort of influence has she had on you?

Jesús Ferreira:

Her name is Ulayvita. It's hard to pronounce. A lot of people call her Ulay. But yeah, I think that, like you said, a lot of people ask me about my dad, but I think the main character in this story could be my mom. Obviously my dad wasn't really in the picture a lot just because of the soccer, his practices, his games, he was always traveling, and it was my mom who was there all the time, all the time taking us to practices, to school. I have two younger brothers, 17 and 10, and so obviously you can tell it's kind of hard whenever she had to take me to middle school and elementary and then kindergarten and going back, picking up the kindergarten and middle school and then high school. And it was all over the place. And so I give her a lot of credit because she's the one that kind of had to deal with everything.

When I signed my first contract, she had no idea what I was signing or what was going on. And so I give her a lot of credit that she stuck around and she let me follow my dreams. She let me become a pro soccer player because without her sacrifice, we would probably be back in Colombia and obviously maybe still chasing our dreams, but it would be way more difficult than what it was. Because obviously we had a life set already. We had soccer friends, just friends in general. And so I'm just happy that she was able to say, "Okay, I'm going to let y'all chase y'all's dream. I'm just going to be here to protect y'all and provide that cover back at home." And I'm just happy that she actually did that and let us follow our dreams. And obviously every time that I see her, I say our dream has come true because without her, we wouldn't be in this situation. I wouldn't be here in the US national team or with Dallas.

Grant Wahl:

I know your dad won a Copa America with Colombia, but he didn't play in a World Cup. You've got a very good chance to play in a World Cup. Has he talked to you at all about what it means? I know you know what it means to make a World Cup, but the fact that he wasn't able to, it's a little bit like your teammate Tim Weah, his father never played in the World Cup despite being a well known player.

Jesús Ferreira:

We haven't really talked about it, but whenever we do talk, he makes sure that I understand what an important moment this is for me and for my family obviously. We all know that these opportunities don't come often and not everyone gets them, and so whenever we do talk, he makes clear enough that this is not an opportunity just to take lightly, that I have to make sure that I have to go and grab it, and make sure I do the best with it that I can.

And so with that being said, obviously I work hard every time that I get the chance to show the coaching staff that I want to be here. As much as I want to take it serious, I also want to enjoy it. And so I want to make sure that they notice that I'm here not to mess around, that I'm being serious, and that I want a spot here in the roster. And so I'm just happy to be here in the group of guys that are named. And so hopefully at the end of the year, I can be in that final roster, but I'm just glad that I can be in the present moment right now, be in his list.

Grant Wahl:

At what point in your life, at what age were you when the possibility of representing the United States came up for the first time?

Jesús Ferreira:

I believe I was 17, probably. 17, and I was being called into a few youth camps, domestic camps here in the US. And I didn't really think about it too much because I wasn't going to be able to play. They never really took me to tournaments because the same reason, I wasn't able to play. And so it was kind of hard because obviously as a kid, all you want to do is represent a country and fight for that country. And so for me growing up and not being able to be called into Colombia national team, it was tough because I saw all my friends at Dallas, obviously we have one of the best academies. And so every time that there was camps, there was two, three, four guys from Dallas going to camp. And I was like, "Oh my." I was doing things right in the academy. I was scoring goals and I was like, "Colombia can't see this?"

And it was a little bit frustrating because I did go to a camp in Colombia, a U15 camp. And they were like, "Yeah, we like you, but it's kind of hard. We want you to move down here to Colombia." And that was something that I wasn't going to do because I was so close on signing. I signed when I was 16. So it was kind of the next year after. And I was like, "No, I'm too close to just signing a professional deal with Dallas and I'm not going to really give that up. Cause that's what I really want to do." And so I never really heard back from them after that, and so I kind of just focused on myself, focused on trying to get a pro deal and I made it happen.

And so after that, there was a few calls with the youth national teams and I was going in, I probably went to two camps before I could actually make an official move. And so those two camps were great, but at the same time, awful, because we had games at the end of the camp and it was just me sitting on the bench, wanting to go in and jump in and represent the country, and I couldn't. I had to just do training camps and just train, train, train, and I was happy to be there, but at the same time, it was frustrating because I wanted to jump in and play and represent the country.

And when I hit 18, my agent and I sat down and my family and friends and that was mainly just my mom, I, and my dad just kind of talking, "What do y'all think about me representing the US?" And they were like, "We're going to support you no matter what, the decision is on you. And that's it, we're not going to say anything else. It's up to you. We're going to support whether you want to stay and try to go to Colombia or you want to represent the US."

And at the end of the day, I've been in the US for more than half of my life. And the US has given me everything from competitive soccer to friends, to new family members, like my brother, he was born in the US. And so it's not hard to say that USA is my home. So I'm just glad that they gave me the opportunity to represent the country. And I'm just fulfilling one of my dreams.

Grant Wahl:

There's so much competition right now for the US number nine spot, including with your friend Ricardo Pepi. How would you describe that competition?

Jesús Ferreira:

I think it's a friendly competition, I would say. Obviously whenever we come to camp, we want to compete with each other, we want to make sure that the other one knows that we're friends, but yeah, we want to fight for that spot. We want to be starting in that spot. And obviously whenever we go back to our domestic leagues, I want the best for him. I want him to be scoring goals and making sure that he's in that radar. Obviously I support him in whatever he's doing, and obviously right now he's starting a new journey and I'm excited for him because you can really tell his talent. But whenever we come to camp, we know that we're fighting for the same spot and obviously I'm going to support him no matter what, if he's starting or not. And I'm just glad that we can have that healthy competition and healthy relationship in us.

Grant Wahl:

FC Dallas has been known for developing talent, but not for winning that many trophies. Could that change this year?

Jesús Ferreira:

Yeah. Obviously we want to change that. The team that we have, we have a young team right now that's hungry to get silverware. We kind of had a fresh start this year with new coaches, new players, a lot of new things around the club. And so right now we are hungry to get a silverware. That's kind of it. And the thing that helps us is that everyone that has joined us, which are new faces, a lot of them, are on the same page as us. We didn't want to feel the same way that we were last year, losing back to back to back to back to back, left and right. And we didn't want to have that feeling no more. And we made sure that everybody in the locker room was on the same page and made sure that everyone wanted the same thing. And everybody does want the same thing.

Obviously we have goals as individuals that we will only achieve if we do our team goals, and our team goals obviously was make playoffs. And then our next one is going to be hopefully have a home game in playoffs. And that's what we're looking for. That's what we're fighting for. And then our ultimate goal would be win MLS Cup, and that's something that our team sees it happening. Obviously there's a lot of people that don't, a lot of people in the MLS that count us out, and we want to prove them wrong. We've shown it during the season that we can compete against any team. And we have the players, the quality to beat anyone. And so we want to send a message to the league and to everyone watching us is that Dallas is a team that wants to fight for the title. That it's a team that is hungry to put everything on the line to win the trophy. And we're going to do that.

Grant Wahl:

Jesús, thanks for coming on the show.

Jesús Ferreira:

Thank you for having me.

The Interview: Josh Wolff

Grant Wahl — Tue, 20 Sep 2022 23:39:52 GMT

Josh Wolff and Austin qualified for the playoffs with a 3-0 win over Salt Lake last Wednesday (Photo by Rich von Biberstein/Icon Sportswire via Getty Images)

Josh Wolff was literally one of the first people I ever interviewed in my job at Sports Illustrated. It was the fall of 1996, and he was a 19-year-old forward playing for the U.S. Under-20 men’s national team. I was writing a story on Project-40, the then-new MLS program which was offering major young talents the chance to skip college and go straight into a pro environment while still receiving money that could go toward a college education. It’s kind of wild to think 26 years have passed since then, but I was thinking about it when Wolff and I met up again in Austin, where he has coached Austin FC into an MLS playoff berth in its second season.

Grant Wahl:

We're here in Austin, Texas, this week, and our guest now is Austin FC coach Josh Wolff. Wolff has Austin in second place in the West as we head into the MLS stretch run. Josh, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Josh Wolff:

You as well. Thanks for having me.

Grant Wahl:

So we're recording this on Tuesday, coming out Thursday, you've got a game in between on Wednesday against Salt Lake, but let's step back a little bit. Last season was Austin's first in the league. You finished 12th in the West, and you've made a big jump this season. You're currently in 2nd place in the West. That fits the profile of what Atlanta and LAFC did in their second seasons in the league. What in your opinion have been the key factors in Austin's rise this season?

Josh Wolff:

I think there's a number of things that have helped us. The first thing is the ambition of the club to continue to improve and get better. I think philosophically we wanted to come out last year and establish who we were and have an identity, and we put a lot into that, certainly the way that we built out our roster and the types of players, the profiles that we brought in and what we thought we would try to do in the first six months of the season. Obviously, establish an attacking-based team and have certainly an entertainment value to it and be something that the fans were proud of. Obviously, you want to win games as well.

So I think the foundation was laid. There were some struggles along the way from some of it, roster build, injuries and a lack of quality in certain areas, but we added some quality at the midpoint, and Sebastián Driussi was a big addition, obviously. And there were growing pains, certainly growing pains, but the second year, we came in with more leadership and some additions to character and quality, and I think that put us in a space that now we could advance, continue to build off what we had in the first year. But it came much quicker, I think, in the second year, and some of that was because of the failures. I think that put us in a good spot.

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Grant Wahl:

You had a huge 4-1 win against LAFC here on national TV late last month, and I happen to be here now when you've had your first three-game losing streak of the season. What are the most important things for you as a team to get right in the remainder of this stretch run and once the playoffs start?

Josh Wolff:

There's a few things. Obviously, you want to get into the playoffs, which based on points, we're probably already in there, but it has been a difficult run lately. Going to Minnesota, going to Seattle, going to Nashville, these are good opponents, and winning games on the road is challenging. So I think we've shown all year, we're a very good team on the road. We maybe haven't shown that lately. We've been a very strong team at home as well, and we're going to have that opportunity to close out the season, three games at home, one away, and that's our opportunity to really capture momentum again. And coming home to play Salt Lake tomorrow is a big moment. We can win tomorrow, we will check off the goals that we set out for the beginning of the year. Make the playoffs and have a home playoff game. And that's really important to us, and that's what we're going to focus on right now.

Grant Wahl:

If you were going to make a case for Sebastián Driussi to be the MVP of the league, what would that case be?

Josh Wolff:

Well, I think his consistency throughout the entire year from start to today has been the best in the league. I think his qualities of being a playmaker, scoring goals in a variety of ways, his work ethic, certainly the team's performance has been a big part of that. We would talk to him about, in order for anyone in most leagues in this country, for a player to win MVP the team has to achieve something. So he's very much a team player and bought into that, but he's an exceptional talent.

There's many good players in our league. Of course, I'm slightly biased to Sebastián. He's been incredibly strong throughout the season when we've needed the higher quality, and certainly his quality, he's delivered more times than not. And I think he's taken a beating throughout the year, so lately he's probably felt that a little bit more, but that's also part of being one of the prized possessions in the league. So we got four games left, he's got a shot at it and we're going to try to support him as best we can.

Grant Wahl:

I don't know if you remember this, but back in 1996 you were one of the first people I ever interviewed in my job for Sports Illustrated. It was in Richmond around the NCAA Final Four, and you were there training with the Under-20 national team. What did the Josh Wolff of those days, a young man, what did that Josh Wolff think would be your future career path, and was coaching a part of it?

Josh Wolff:

I will start with the latter part, coaching being part of it, probably not. But being a professional soccer player, yes, that was my ambition, that was the idea for me, and making the youth national team, going to an Olympics, setting goals along the way, I think, was important for me. But I think it's important for a lot of players. And obviously, making it to a World Cup, those things were goals that you keep moving along with, but Project-40 was our first taste of modern-day Generation Adidas, and Ben Olsen, myself, Carlos Parra, there were a lot of guys that were part of that first group. And that was our entry into MLS, which was just a couple years old.

So it was a great opportunity, it was the opportunity that we wanted, we made $24,000, and it was the most exciting times of our lives. But that was always my ambition, was to play professional soccer, whether it was in MLS or somewhere else, but that was the door that got us introduced to the game here in the U.S. and we ran with it.

Grant Wahl:

Help with some of our listeners, because what I've found out is we've gotten a lot of new soccer fans in the last 10 years who have no idea what Project-40 means or is. Could you explain what it was?

Josh Wolff:

Well, I think it was the idea of trying to get younger players in a professional environment at a younger age. And we didn't have academy structures. The universities were a pretty normal pathway. There weren't players coming out of high school. So you were foregoing your college career, in essence, and signing a Project-40 contract that put you into one of the MLS teams, and now you're in a professional environment training day-in and day-out. They would provide you with $40,000 to go back to school if that was something that you wanted to pursue or had the time to pursue, but in the end it was Projec-40 and it was destined, and the goal back then was to win the World Cup by 2010, and those were clear messages. I remember sitting in rooms with Sunil Gulati and certainly our U-20s, and hearing this message and idea and of course it's exciting to be part of it and more exciting for the individual. You got to chase your dream of being a professional soccer player.

Grant Wahl:

It's interesting because you talk about Project 2010. Another project that was literally talked about in those days. And sometimes people laugh when they hear about talking about the U.S. winning the World Cup in 2010, but you know what I tell them? It’s that in 2002, the U.S. got to the quarterfinals of the World Cup, arguably outplayed Germany, probably should have had a goal-line handball red card penalty kick situation, and then could have played South Korea in the semifinals of the World Cup. The point being that the U.S. actually was not far from the World Cup final. Does that ever enter your mind when you think about that?

Josh Wolff:

Yes, absolutely. All of that is accurate, and it's exactly right. Of course, you need some good fortunes, but you need a belief, you need a quality, you need a group, and that's what we had and that's what 2002 was, and it was unfortunate. It is a red card handball on the goal line, and it could change the direction of a lot of things, but we played Korea and tied them 1-1. Of course they're a difficult opponent in their home country, but the opportunity could have been there, and it's a frightening thing to think of, but you know. And obviously, where we are today and we have so much more talent now, and obviously players playing at much higher level, but you were right there on the cusp of it, and it was exciting at the moment, but we certainly all talk about when we think back on it.

Grant Wahl:

I spent the last year working as part of a pretty big team on a documentary film project that I know you participated in on the USA-Mexico soccer rivalry, it comes out on Amazon in November, three-part series. And it reminded me, going back through a lot of the US.-Mexico games over the years, that you played a very big role in a lot of them. You scored goals, you set up goals, you were a big part of the 2002 World Cup win against Mexico. When you think back on your role in those games against Mexico today, what stands out to you the most?

Josh Wolff:

Just being impactful. I think, as a player you're trying to be impactful in these games. Some of these are friendlies, some of them are qualifiers and some of them at the World Cup. And I think Bruce always did a great job of making all the players feel like they were going to have a role and have an opportunity, and I think in the World Cup, once it fell that way, it was pretty immediate. And he had voiced it in some of the other games when we played Mexico, like, "Somehow you have their numbers, somehow you have a real ability to make an impact in these games." And that's always something that stuck with me. As an attacker, you want to be impactful, but no matter what the stage is, that's your job as an attacker is to score goals, create goals, penalties and so forth, but be a good teammate. So those opportunities against Mexico fell, I usually took them pretty well and the results are, in the end, what are most important, and I was glad to just contribute.

Grant Wahl:

You mentioned, we were talking a second ago, that teenage Josh Wolff didn't really think much about being a coach someday. At what point did that become something you thought about?

Josh Wolff:

I'd say when I went to Germany to play. A little bit older going there and was looking more for a new experience and something different, and after a second World Cup, so I was there with Gregg Berhalter, we played at 1860, and for me, it's interesting because here I am in MLS and you see foreigners come to our league and it's difficult, it's challenging. So now I'm the foreigner going to another league, and you’ve got to open up to new ideas and be more of a growth mindset, and learn, and there's a humility to it, so I enjoyed going there and seeing what it was like.

The game was taught in a different way as well. There's more detail to it. And I've played for Bob Bradley and Bob Gansler and obviously Bruce Arena, so it's also very good coaches. But I appreciated now a little bit more of the detail. I was probably a little more mature in thinking about the game and watching the game a little more, so I think those things coincided, and the moment I came back from Germany, for me it was my moment to now start pursuing a little bit more of the coaching idea. You're getting older, you realize it's not forever, and that was when the pathway started, I think.

Grant Wahl:

You mentioned some of the coaches you played for: Bob Gansler, Bruce Arena, Bob Bradley, you were an assistant coach with Gregg Berhalter. In what ways did some of those guys influence you specifically in how they approach things that you take a little bit of that in what you do now?

Josh Wolff:

A little bit of everything. Again, I think of Bob Bradley was my first professional coach, and the amount of work and the detail that he would put in, the care and the inner circle that he always spoke of and how important that was. Bob Gansler had a good intensity and always reminded you about the family aspect of what a team is like. Bruce would bring a certain level of intensity and more man management. And being with Gregg was a whole new heightened level for me, because there was so much more of the teaching element and the detail behind it and how you review it and refine it, and as an assistant coach you're obviously in that space a little bit more than you are as a player with those coaches. But a real appreciation for it to help Gregg grow, but for myself to really grow in that space, it was really impactful and really important for me.

Grant Wahl:

Is there any sort of thing you could share about Gregg Berhalter as a coach or a person that would be helpful for these U.S. fans as we look forward to this World Cup coming soon now that he'll be coaching the U.S. team in and will be a defining experience, not the but a defining experience of his coaching career?

Josh Wolff:

Well I think there's a lightheartedness side to Gregg that we don't always get to see. I mean, when we're around him every day, there's different experiences that you share, and he's still quite youthful in moments. And when you're coaching the men's national team, there's obviously a huge amount of outside pressure. Inside the group, though, it's still a young group. And he maintains that connection, I think, extremely well with players of all backgrounds and all ages. And for me, knowing who he was and working alongside him for six, seven years, it is intense, but you have to find time to enjoy it, you have to have time to let loose a little bit, and he does that. I think the fans probably don't always get to see that because, look, it's a business of results and he's always going to be scrutinized and measured based on that, and in all honesty I think the results have been pretty good.

Grant Wahl:

We talk about influences of coaches that you've played for, worked with. What are some things about the way you coach that are very you? Very Josh Wolff?

Josh Wolff:

Yeah, I think there's growth over the first year and certainly this year, I think being a little more aware of what you allow the assistant coaches to bring in, even taking more reflection from the players. We come in with our ideas and it's pretty rigid, and you learn quickly that there is a softness to this. There is a bringing along of the coaches and the players. Everybody has to have a role in this.

So I think the biggest part is communication. As a head coach, there's lots of departments that you have to manage, and you also have to manage each player so the communication piece with players and staff becomes extremely critical because the games are up and down, there are ebbs and flows, there's congestion and there's breaks. So you want to strike relationships, build relationships, because they will be tested. The games will become challenging, and what you have is your bond with the group, and it's extremely important in good and bad times.

Grant Wahl:

How would you describe how MLS has changed since when you played to where it is today?

Josh Wolff:

Well, I think the amount of quality and talent inside the league has changed in the last four or five years. I think the trends of the players that come here, the ages, the profiles that they're coming at. The game-day experience in our league is, to me, is what has set the sport off in this country. I can speak on behalf of what it's like here in Austin at Q2, what the intensity's like, what the energy's like, what the support leading up to the game is during the game, what it looks like on TV. It's incredible to be here, and I think that, along with the quality that you're able to provide on the field, gives a real entertainment value. And I think that's, in the last five years, three years, I mean, it's been much, much different than I certainly recall in 1998 when I first came in.

Grant Wahl:

We're getting old.

Josh Wolff:

Yeah. I am old. I don't know how old you are, you still look young to me, but I'm feeling it each day.

Grant Wahl:

Winding down here with Josh Wolff. Really appreciate the time. You work a lot every day, obviously, with your staff, with your players. I'm also curious, though, to know how you would describe the relationship of working with Claudio Reyna, the sporting director here, and Anthony Precourt, the owner.

Josh Wolff:

Anthony's here today. I mean, he pops in every now and then. Eddie, so a couple of the owners. But with Claudio, our office space is quite close to each other, we have meetings twice a week, typically, part of our leadership team, and also working with the scouting team. So there's plenty of interaction. He's present every day watching training, so we have to have feedback.

There has to be dialogue. We’ve got to maintain how we want to continue to get better, and also just to reflect on what's been happening. He's obviously got a great experience in the sport, a good eye for what's happening inside the building and outside the building, so communication, again, it's quite key, and having Anthony and Eddie, we have barbecues here, we do things as a team, and it's always important to have everybody included as often as possible. And we certainly encourage that. Matthew McConaughey has been out to some of our barbecues.

So it's a great group, and it's a great ownership group, and this is a very strong family. The bond inside this building has been extremely strong all year, and I think that's also why we are in the situation that we are at the end of the year where we can clinch a playoffs and certainly a home playoff game as well.

Grant Wahl:

You talk about the playoffs. You've played in the MLS playoffs, it's one-and-done. You have some players who've played in the MLS playoffs, but you have quite a few who haven't. What will you say to them about how it's different? What it's like?

Josh Wolff:

It's a great question, and we've talked a little bit about it this year, but I was also saying that last year. Down the stretch, we were out of the playoffs, but we were playing teams that were playing in the playoffs, teams that were playing for playoff spot, and I quickly tried to redirect our attention: "Let's make these last home games as good as we can based on building for next year and know we're going to play some opponents that are fighting for their lives or fighting for a position in the playoffs." To try to give a little bit of a feeling of what a playoff game's going to feel like for the Sebastián Driussis.

These guys have played in Champions League games, they've played in big games, but the playoffs are just a different animal. They're reffed differently, they look differently, and they become single-elimination, so we've talked about it a little bit last year and of late, we've certainly put it on the radar. But we want to keep focusing on each opponent, the next opponent as much as we can, and when the playoffs arrive hopefully be in a good space ready to go, but it's an exciting time. The one-and-done makes it really interesting, so we want to play at home. That's the goal right now.

Grant Wahl:

You mentioned Matthew McConaughey, so I’ve got to ask. You got any good stories involving him?

Josh Wolff:

No, I think he's a very authentic, genuine guy. When he gets around us at a barbecue or he's at the stadium before some of our matches, he's quite jovial. He's quite passionate about Austin, which I think is who he is and what he's always been about. But we're fortunate to have him on our ownership group, as is the rest of our owners. They're fantastic human beings.

Grant Wahl:

What do you see as the next step for this club to take?

Josh Wolff:

Well, I think the playoffs are one thing, and now what can we make of that in the playoffs? And the first thing that I always say is that if you can get in that door and get a chance, anything can happen. And it's single-elimination, as you said, and you want to finish as high as possible so you can grab as many home games as you can if you can progress. But beyond that, right now, I don't think too much. Obviously, we’ve got to continue to improve this roster, and whatever happens this year, you'll turn the page quickly and start thinking about 2023. And there's changes coming next year. Leagues Cup is coming, we're playing against Mexican competition, the Open Cup'll start up again, more opportunity to make Champions League. So it'll be a robust schedule and we'll need more bodies, we'll need more quality. Just like everybody in this league, we want to keep getting better.

Grant Wahl:

Josh Wolff is the head coach of Austin FC. Thanks for coming on the show.

Josh Wolff:

Thank you for having me.

The Interview: Eduardo Biscayart

Grant Wahl — Thu, 08 Sep 2022 22:22:44 GMT

One of the very top Spanish-language soccer broadcasters in the United States is my friend Eduardo Biscayart, whom you can see on Telemundo broadcasting games from the Premier League and World Cup. He has a fascinating story in the media, as well, starting out as a photographer in his native Argentina for El Gráfico (their version of Sports Illustrated) and transitioning later into becoming a broadcaster. It was great to catch up with him this week for our interview.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is a good friend who's one of the leading soccer broadcasters in the United States. Miami-based Eduardo Biscayart calls Premier League games and will be doing the World Cup for Telemundo. He also hosts the terrific podcast Fútbol Infinito with Jaime Macías. You can find him on Twitter and Instagram at @donbisca. Eduardo, it's great to talk to you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Eduardo Biscayart:

Thank you, Grant. How are you?

Grant Wahl:

Doing well, doing well. We're recording this on Tuesday, September 6, the first day of the Champions League group stage, so as always much going on in the soccer world. I want to start, because we have a lot of things we can talk about here, but I do know you've done multiple Leeds United games so far this season on Telemundo. And there's a lot of interest from U.S. fans in Leeds, obviously because of Jesse Marsch, the American coach, American players Tyler Adams and Brenden Aaronson. What's your sense of Leeds United and the Americans there so far?

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Eduardo Biscayart:

Well, I think that the team has improved. When Jesse took it, it was in critical condition because it was heading for relegation. Defensively it was a disaster. It was one of the worst two defenses in the league. Even at the end when they escaped relegation second after Norwich City, and they have improved I think in the balance of the game, and they have added some interesting players. Because two of the most important players in the past seasons, Raphinha and Kalvin Phillips, have departed, along with other ones that have been difficult to replace, like Alioski in the left side of defense and also Bielsa.

Bielsa was the man that I think gave this club and this city, in a soccer way, in a football way, the sense that they belonged again. So the American players have, I think, blended in very well. Marsch, I think the most challenging part was just to stabilize the team and keep it in the Premier League. And now there are the challenges of trying to be a middle-of-the-table team, which is hard in such a competitive league.

Grant Wahl:

You're from Argentina originally. How much have you followed Marcelo Bielsa in his career over the years? He's sort of this eccentric legendary figure, including in Argentina, going back to Newell's Old Boys and his playing career. What's your sense of sort of Bielsa's legacy and even what he might do next?

Eduardo Biscayart:

Well, Bielsa is I think a person who connects very well in the one-on-one, or in the personal manner emotionally. And I think that's the reason why the players give themselves completely to his cause, sometimes without questioning his tactics or his methods. And I think the best way to analyze his methods is throughout the time. And Bielsa is a person that can obtain great results, and then can undo that very quickly.

For instance, let's go to the most beyond Leeds or Athletic Club Bilbao, we go to Argentina in the buildup of the 2002 World Cup. Argentina was probably the best team in the world in that qualifying and heading into the World Cup. But then a couple injuries and the team was not as fit as it was in qualifying in the middle of the season. And it was a horrible collapse. And that's why Bielsa does not have that sense, the same sense or the same connection that he has with the player just to get the most out of him, then just to realize that the player maybe is not as fit as it should be, or the defense is not as quick as it should be to play so forward. And therefore the team might suffer. And then that suffering might be that you need to make adjustments, and the result is going to be bad. And that happened to him many times, and it will probably keep on happening.

I've never seen him... contrary to the brilliance that he has, I have never seen him being auto-critical. I know that his philosophy and about... like today when you're suffering, it's because you're losing, it's because you're going to win tomorrow, but not realizing... why this is continuing to happen to me.

Grant Wahl:

Do you think he'll take up a prominent job again? Do you think he might come to North America at some point?

Eduardo Biscayart:

I think he might. I think he's going to go for another one. I think Bielsa, without knowing him in depth, my father was a Newell's Old Boys fan, and he followed Newell's in those days and in probably days before him, probably since 1950s and '60s. And so I know the philosophy of Newell's very well.

But I think Bielsa is one of those sportsmen who are bad losers. They don't like to lose, like any good sportsman, and he's going to go back to get another revenge. But what you question from the outside is, is he going to be able to make the adjustments? Because any coach will tell you, "Well, yeah, this is what happened to me." For instance, Ancelotti. Ancelotti was coming through periods of not good results. And it seems like now he's a philosopher because he learned. And the way that they call him, like Ancelotti has a right hand to be firm and the left one to be soft. You have to have the balance somehow, I think, when you're leading a group.

Grant Wahl:

That's really interesting. What is a typical work week like for you?

Eduardo Biscayart:

Well, we have the weekend, which is the thick part of what we do when the games happen. And so after that, when I work on TV, I used to have Champions League when I used to work for Fox Sports in Mexico, and that ended in 2021. So once the contract ended, it was renewed through TNT Sports in Mexico, and they didn't want me to be a part of that. It's one of the things that happen in this business and any aspect of life, which is totally fine. So then it was just weekends. And on Sunday nights, we would just record the podcast with the action of the weekend. We don't go play by play, analyzing everything. It's trying to see an outlook of what happened and why it happened, and what projection it might have on what's coming up in the future.

And then Monday, I try to start to get ready for the week. And this week of Champions League, we're going to do two things for Champions League: preview today and tomorrow, Spaces on Twitter, audio only. And then on Wednesday, we're going to record a recap of the whole matchday. And then getting ready for the weekend, watch the games obviously, keep up with the action and get ready for the weekend.

The preparation for each game typically takes me maybe four or five hours to analyze the teams, and to get the information, and to read basically, like you, reading, being up to date. We're not at the source, so we have a tremendous handicap there. It's not like with any American sport you can go to the field, you can go to the practice, you can have closer contact with the protagonists. And here, we just see everything from afar, so it's hard.

Grant Wahl:

I do think, I said this to you before we started recording, that getting a nickname from Luis Omar Tapia, you've got to use that, because that guy is the king of nicknames when it comes to players and basically everyone. So I fully respect all of that and admire it. And if he's listening, I would love to get my own nickname, my friend. But I want to ask you about your story. I've always known you're from Argentina, but I was surprised recently to learn that you were a photographer back in the day before you became a broadcaster. Could you share a bit about your journey?

Eduardo Biscayart:

Well, my beginnings were in track and field. I love football, soccer. But I guess my parents... my dad didn't want me to play, to even go to a trial. Maybe I wasn't good enough anyway. But when I was able to do something on my own, I had just turned 16. I went to a track and field practice, and I was able to stick on to it. I think I showed at least resilience or some talent, and that's how I became an athlete. I had a certain junior level, okay. And I completed one national championship under 20, and I won the regionals, I was a 1,500-meter runner and I was all right. I wouldn't have been an Olympian, surely. But then, because I was always in love with sports. My father used to buy El Gráfico and other magazines. He loved car racing as well. So every day there was something to read, and that connected me very deeply.

And with the resources that we had, we would go to the Formula 1 when it would hit Buenos Aires in the late '70s, and sometimes to football. But it was not an every weekend plan. Mostly we would just go to the club where we belonged and to play sports and to learn how to play.

And when I was in track and field, I realized that the hunger of telling a story, telling a story about something that was known, those athletes that to me were references, like, nobody knew about them. And that's when I started writing and doing statistical work. And then they said you're going to be more useful if you pick up the camera. You have a camera, you take pictures. You like pictures. "Yeah, yeah, I do."

And so I developed that side, in the meantime when I was still aspiring to be a journalist. I never quit journalism, but I picked up the camera, and while picking up the camera, I realized that there was another side. My love for the camera has never ended. And that's why still, when I can, I go to the field because I love being at the field to take pictures. And that took me to El Gráfico, and that took me to America.

Grant Wahl:

Could you explain a little bit to our listeners what El Gráfico was, and what it represented in Argentina? Because for me, when I lived in Argentina for three months in '95, I visited El Gráfico because for me it had become this very meaningful publication. How would you describe what it was?

Eduardo Biscayart:

Well, it was just like the publication where you worked in the United States. It was pretty much the same reference, and I think it was inspired by the same principle by its founder, Constancio Vigil, in 1919. And because it was the same as Sports Illustrated, right?

Grant Wahl:

Yeah.

Eduardo Biscayart:

El Gráfico is sports graphically, so it was the idea, you're not going to be able to come up with a daily story, but you're going to be able to tell a story, and you're going to be able to show it graphically. And that was the principle. And throughout the times, it did have probably the best signatures in sports and in journalism in general and the best images. So it was a great formation for me. It was a great school of life and journalism, and I think it couldn't have been better. I got there, someone spotted me and they said, "You want to be a part of this?" I said, "What, are you kidding me?: I don't know how you got to Sports Illustrated, but that's the way it happened to me. And I started as a junior, little by little.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah. I got in as an entry-level fact checker, and became a writer after a year, I guess, at Sports Illustrated.

Eduardo Biscayart:

No, it was the same thing for me. I was a paparazzi at night. I was 21 and they say, you're going to go to find the restaurants and stuff, spot people, famous people, whatever, and do it, and bring the pictures and focus and with good lighting. So go figure it out.

Grant Wahl:

Nice. And how would you make the transition to broadcasting? At what point did that take place?

Eduardo Biscayart:

Well, I mean, I had never left the journalistic side, and I think being a photo reporter, you never lose your appetite for where the news is, because you have to reflect it. There's a story behind a picture. There's a story behind an image. And sometimes the image is part of the story, and sometimes it's totally the story.

So when I got to the United States, when I got married, I got married to an American woman and we had a son, and we lived in Atlanta for almost two and a half years. And she heard, because she had worked at Turner, that they needed a writer at the CNN Spanish broadcast news. And so I just went the day of the verdict of O.J. Simpson. I walked in. It was total commotion there. I remember that. And I spent probably six hours writing and translating and they said, "Okay, can you come back tomorrow?" I said, "Well, I actually don't have my work permit yet."

And they said, "Okay, well then come back when you have it." Maybe the arrogance of being 20-something, I was like, "Well, I would like to just... there's the Olympics coming up next year," and I already told you the connection I had with an Olympic sport, "... and I think I might be able to get a job there, I would like to." And he's like, "Well, the Olympics are next year, right?" He's like, "Okay, then come back then, but stay in touch."

And that's how they taught me lots of things that I didn't know, because I didn't belong to the TV side or even the radio side. And actually for me it was like a masters in journalism, the one that I experienced there. And then I complemented to what I did at ESPN. And at ESPN one day they said, "We would like you to do a trial for commenting on a game. And so let's see if you can handle that." And I handled that apparently pretty well, so then I'm here with you.

Grant Wahl:

That's an amazing transition, because I don't view the skills of photography and action photography in sports as having a lot of overlap, maybe some, but not that much between broadcasting, or writing for that matter. You're a pretty talented guy, I guess, is what I'm saying.

Eduardo Biscayart:

Well, I always loved the game. My brother is a River Plate fan, and we would go to the stadium. And you've been to Boca-River, Independiente, Ferrocarril Oeste in those days. And in certain stadiums you could learn different things. And I think in Boca and Racing, you just know about being a player that has a lot of character, and can deliver something beyond the game. And at Independiente, River and Newell's as well, you would observe the game and learn from the game and the movements, and you would see great players, and they would actually encourage you to do something else. And they would tell you about Di Stéfano, and they would tell you about Labruna, and they would tell you about Arsenio Erico, Bochini, whatever.

So for me reading El Gráfico, and seeing it there and listening to the radio, I was like, I would go with the radio to the stadiums. I was obsessed with that. My family can tell you that. I think I was able to canalize whatever opportunity came to me and grab it and try it. And that was a key. But I always did it with passion and trying to be as humble as possible, and say, I need to learn this line of work, because I'm not perfect for it. I need to make myself better. And that's what I did at every opportunity that I had. Or tried, at least.

Grant Wahl:

Did you have any major influences among broadcasters?

Eduardo Biscayart:

Just from observing. In the '70s, there was this radio host that created a style in radio. It was picked up from others previously. José María Muñoz. Muñoz had the rhythm of the information. And then Victor Hugo Morales gave it a different twist. It was deeper. It was more poetical. There was something else to that. And the radio was everything then, because unless you went to the stadium, you would acquire the possibility of seeing the game without seeing it, and the whole match day, and everything that was happening.

I think it was simpler in that day. All the teams played 4-3-3, and exceptionally they played 4-4-2, Bilardo made another thing. It was interesting when hearing that, it's like you would want to see it in the stadium, and so for me, it was beyond trying to see who scored or whatever, I would go to observe the game. And then the one announcer that I picked up from the TV side the most was Enrique Macaya Márquez, because he would have the balance to be able to inform you without being over powerful, and describing tactics without looking like, "I'm an expert, but I try to know a lot." And so that balance, and with that being extremely passionate. It's like, yeah, you have to show passion because you have to be emotional. However, it's like being able to just handle that without falling apart later on. I think that that was very appealing to me.

Grant Wahl:

Have you ever worked in English? Have you wanted to?

Eduardo Biscayart:

Occasionally, but I never was given that opportunity and probably I never went after it.

Grant Wahl:

I have the nerve to hope to work in Spanish a little more often at some point. But as you know from my appearance on your podcast, I've got some work to do on my Spanish. (laughs)

Eduardo Biscayart:

We all have work to do; so don't be discouraged. I have work to do. So it's like, come on.

Grant Wahl:

A couple more questions for you; I really appreciate you taking the time. Argentina at this World Cup, it seems like as the Copa América champion, it feels like there's a little more support for Messi now. And now I hear people talking about this could be Messi's World Cup to potentially have a chance to win. What do you think?

Eduardo Biscayart:

Well, I think it's not so easy to win a World Cup. I mean, people think that it's simple and that it's... like, we were talking about the Bielsa days. And it was like, oh, Argentina is going to make it very easily. And they could not advance from the group stage. And the players were there. You are as nostalgic as I am, Verón, Simeone, Batistuta still being not at his prime, but still being high, or Gustavo López, or Claudio López, Sorín, Zanetti. And it was a very good team. I mean, it went through the qualifying as there were no rivals, except for Brazil at Brazil. And in this case, Argentina goes undefeated again through the qualification. They win the Copa América, which they hadn't done since 1993. However, the World Cup is very tricky, and we know that.

Maybe right now, we're seeing Mexico like without giving any type of solid performance, and maybe they will have the quinto partido, the fifth game, who knows? Because in football it may happen that way, because I think a lot is how you arrive... this is like a tennis major; it's how you arrive to those two weeks. In this case, there are four weeks. And how is your mental strength and approach to what you're going to see? You've got to be very humble. And you have to be physically and technically at your peak. You cannot be seven out of 10. Maybe you can have a player who's seven out of 10, and maybe you can play him 30 minutes in each game very, very precisely, because you're going to have a 26-man roster.

The mental approach has to be top, from the coach and from the players. The moment I think Alfio Basile, from those days, used to say, when we go to a World Cup thinking that we're going to win it, then nothing good is going to happen. And I think the best example that we have is what happened in '86. Bilardo and the players said when we went to Ezeiza, which is the airport, and there was nobody around, we left like, "Please get out of here and don't come back." And then they won the World Cup. They had Maradona, and they had a great team now that we see it from a distance. But I think that attitude that "We're going to have to fight really hard" is very important.

Grant Wahl:

Just as a last question, I like asking people this, if you have any advice for young people who want to do what you do, what would that advice be?

Eduardo Biscayart:

I think: Never give up. Never just take the first opinion or get discouraged by the first encounter that you may have, like they say. Or they want to give you the idea that you're not as good as... boy/girl, you're not as good as people label you. And because there are lots of labels in this society. There have been. I'm 52 now, and then back in the day, probably in Argentina maybe a lot of people thought, "What is this guy doing on TV? He was never on TV. I mean, what the hell?" But it's just as I always said, why not? And why would I have to wonder later, why didn't I do it? So just go for it, and be humble to observe and to learn and if you have somebody that you admire, if you can, try to get in touch with that person.

Today with social networks and social media, it's a lot easier. And don't use that to provoke or to say something stupid. Because a lot of people, you probably would be very receptive to somebody who wants to do what you have done, what you are doing, which is remarkable. And it's always inspiring. There's always somebody out there. I always tell the younger people: Even when you are broadcasting a game that seems will have no audience, you will never know who's listening to you. And that happened to me, that it's extremely positive to see when people notice something that you wrote on a piece, something that you said, because you are thinking about it, you are thinking that that makes a difference. When you are commenting on a game, you're thinking that what you're saying is original. It makes a difference.

And when people see it and when people spot it, they say you have something beyond talking about the game. And that is a great compliment because we're not just a game. We're just people alive. Like you like music, cinema, books, you read a lot, and then that makes a whole of a person. And for me, the advice is complete yourself. Read whatever you like with a lot of passion, then just go for that and try to learn as much as you can, and try to challenge yourself to learn as much as you can every day, and be critical. Don't be so harsh, but critical.

Grant Wahl:

Eduardo Biscayart calls Premier League games for Telemundo, where he'll also be working the World Cup. He hosts the terrific podcast Fútbol Infinito with Jaime Macías. Eduardo, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Eduardo Biscayart:

Thank you, Grant. It was a pleasure.

The Interview: Archie Rhind-Tutt

Grant Wahl — Wed, 07 Sep 2022 15:34:44 GMT

Archie Rhind-Tutt does great work covering the Bundesliga (for ESPN) and Champions League, so I’ve been looking forward to interviewing him for a long time. Little did I know that his favorite player as a young Fulham fan was former USMNT stalwart Brian McBride! He tells that story and a lot more below.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is one of my favorite media people covering the German Bundesliga. Archie Rhind-Tutt is a freelance reporter who works for ESPN on the ground in Germany. Archie, it's great to talk to you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Hey, Grant, thanks for having me.

Grant Wahl:

Lots to talk about here, but let's just start, I'm curious to know what is your day-to-day work like in a typical week?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

So there is no typical week, for a start. When the Champions League and Europa League, and my favorite Europa Conference League starts up, meaning I get to go to places such as Slovenia for the first time and whatnot, it means that there's a lot of travel involved. When that's not the case, then a lot of it is keeping across what's happening in terms of storylines that may break for a week, and just making sure I've got tabs on that, because I'll go on ESPNFCs program, nightly show, I'll generally go on once a week or so.

And then on top of that, things get cooking when the weekend rolls around. That's when things happen, as is life as a sports journalist. There's also sadly admin that needs to be done, which I will always try and put off for as long as possible. But yeah, that's the gist of it, I would say.

“I grew up as a Fulham fan. My favorite player growing up was Brian McBride. I even once wrote about him for an English essay. I happened to do well on this piece on Brian McBride, and my dad wanted to see it, brought it home. And one of the [Fulham] physios happened to be there that day. And he goes, ‘Oh, could I borrow this?’ Dad goes, ‘Yeah, sure.’ And I get home from school a couple weeks later, and there was a signed pair of boots from Brian McBride, being like, Best wishes, Brian.” — Archie Rhind-Tutt

Grant Wahl:

I love your reporting from stadiums, from outside stadiums, what you do for television, what you post on your Twitter. How do you sort of approach that? Do you have a guiding philosophy when you're reporting from a location like that?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

I'm not sure philosophy is the appropriate word for what I do, but I'd say that it's for me about trying to give people things that they can't see on the television, they can't see on Twitter. And trying to put myself in the shoes of somebody who doesn't follow the Bundesliga on a daily basis, or even on a weekly basis, and will want to learn new things about the league, about the way that people watch the football to even the sweets that they may eat at Borussia Dortmund at halftime. I don't know if you have Pick & Mix in the U.S. or what that's called. I'm sure you do, given everyone's love for candy over there, but just those little details that for me give a sense of being on the ground and what it feels like to be there.

So that's something I always try and keep in mind. And also just trying to take myself a step back, because it's very easy to start making assumptions about what people know when in fact, for example, with Union Berlin, there's a common line about the fact that the club's fans gave blood to help build the stadium. That's a common line to somebody who knows the Union Berlin story, but maybe somebody who's joining it for the first time won't know that. And there's, I think, that balance that you have to seek as a reporter of a league which isn't the Premier League. Where you have to remember that there can't be too much assumed knowledge, and you have to find the balance of the people who are following it all the time and not trying to irritate them by repeating the same detail over and over again. And trying to come towards people who might be interested in watching it, engaging with it for the first time.

Grant Wahl:

No, that makes total sense. What in your opinion makes the Bundesliga special?

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Archie Rhind-Tutt:

The fans. The fans, and their attitudes towards the authorities for a start. And by this I mean the ultra groups and the way that they behave. I think that's very unique. And I think whilst there are bits about them, which I think can be taken out of context, I think on the whole the sort of work they do on a social level, how socially conscious that they are. I think that is forgotten amidst all the flares and smoke bombs that may be let off. And even the seriousness of that, I always wonder to myself, if it was that bad, then would they do it? Because there are still human beings underneath these masks that they may wear so that they don't get identified. And I think coming from a Premier League background, myself, growing up as a fan, it's been an eye-opener to see the way that works.

And obviously with the way that German clubs are owned and how that is primarily still in the hands of the fans. That is a big difference. So yeah, in terms of a big heading, I'd say the fans, but just also the way that people in German football and in Germany are much more concerned about what they stand for, rather than it doesn't matter, we just have to win no matter what, and we will sell our soul at whatever price it costs. We don't care which state or which person owns us, which is what I find more and more commonly in England. So yeah, I think the fact that I was raised there and then go into a different environment, those are the things that jump out at me.

Grant Wahl:

It’s really interesting. I mean, I only really started covering German soccer a little over a decade ago. Made my first big trip over there, I think, in 2010. And I was struck by not just the community aspect, but the social mission aspect. And I realized that even in England, there's more of a community sense around clubs than there are around U.S. professional sports teams in most cases. But there's a continuum. And I felt like Germany, where you actually had fans welcomed to come attend training sessions on a regular basis in Germany, sort of took things to a different level. And are there any other sort of little or big examples of things like that you see in Germany?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

I think you see it in the way that the team will always go over to the fans as a team altogether at the end of a game, and in a winning cause they might do what's called the Humba where they, it depends on the club as well. That tends to be more specific to Mainz as one of the places which is home to Carnival, but just this idea of everyone kind of linking hands and raising them at the same time as the fans behind the goal as well. And you'll see the way that Sadio Mané, for example, was invited up onto the fence at Frankfurt after Bayern's opening-day demolition job there. So I think that sort of direct connection is more than just as I see in England, for example, are the players going and straggling over to the fans dependent as well on the result.

Some might just disappear down the tunnel, and that's okay. And you sometimes see that when, in terms of a player, if they've come from a different environment that they all be sent back by a press officer to be like, "No, no, no, everyone goes with the team to go directly there." So yeah, that's another element that I'd say I've mentioned. And I think the way it's discussed as well, Grant, is I hear people in England being like, "Oh, surely people are losing the plot with Bayern doing so well now." And it comes back to people are like, "Well, what's the other choice? We sell the club that we love to somebody who doesn't care for it. And then not only are we going to still probably lose, but we then also lose our club, our community, our values."

And when you frame it like that, I think it's pretty obvious that the answer is no, still. And no matter what solutions of which I find it very difficult to pick them out myself, the chances of that changing, I think are still low and there would be widespread protests were any further steps towards a 50+1 break, which there is attempted, still, tries to dismantle it in German football. That those are still being made by people, and arguments are still being made, albeit shot down as well. And I think when you look at what a club like Eintracht Frankfurt can do by being the way they are and still essentially owned by the fans, I think that very much watered down the argument when you're winning a Europa League title, which is not an easy thing to do in modern football.

Grant Wahl:

You brought it up. I mean, it's interesting to me that Bayern has now won 10 titles in a row. And in the period before that there were quite a few different winners of the Bundesliga. And not just Dortmund under Klopp. There were other clubs that were winning the title. I'm wondering, what do you think are the causes of Bayern having this much supremacy over the last 10 years?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

So there's one argument that I hear rattled around a lot, which is about Bayern having this winning mentality and people just can't get close to that, and really the rest of the league needs to toughen up. And then I think you come to the real cause of it, which is money, like it is in most aspects of life. And in reality here in this situation, because of the way that the Champions League money has accelerated and created an elite amongst the elites, not just in Germany, but across Europe, you have seen the way that the dominance and the stranglehold on these leagues has tightened. And that's the reason, it's as much because 10 years ago, someone like Raúl was able to be attracted to Schalke, like that kind of name. And I say this as a Fulham fan in the Premier League, there's certainly a part of me that enjoys seeing somebody like João Palhinha come to Fulham this summer.

On the other hand, he's a starting defensive midfielder for Portugal. And a newly promoted side has the cash to attract him, tells you something in itself. And I think that it is the way that these traditional clubs have been left behind a lot in Germany that tells you what's gone on. And despite the fact that Borussia Dortmund have grown significantly, and there was definitely a chance for them to win a title, if not two, if we're being generous within that run of 10, there was a very close title race that I was involved that I say involved, involved in reporting on. There we go, important clarification, when it went right down to the final day, and that was to me the opportunity missed, but otherwise what more can you expect when you are trying to cut down a tree with a bread knife and Bayern have a chainsaw? I think sometimes in the media we search for there being different causes to make it sound different, to make it sound more appealing when actually the truth is the truth is money.

Grant Wahl:

So let me ask you this, because this topic has come up occasionally in Germany, and I think you might have a more on-the-ground read of it than I can get from over here in New York about how serious the possibility is. Because I've seen the possibility of end-of-season playoffs in the Bundesliga to determine a champion come up occasionally, and even once or twice seen Bayern Munich people not totally dismiss it, but is this even a realistic possibility, or is this just some talking point that comes up from time to time?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

A mixture of both of those things? I think because you have a newish CEO of the Bundesliga in Donata Hopfen, the likelihood of seeing more ideas like this, ways that they can change things. She needs to be seen as being proactive. And as a result you will see ideas like that floated, and the only real reactions I've seen to that has been it being rebuffed. And I think it's worth thinking about. I've heard people say it devalues the season, but I think for many clubs it could add a different element to it. I just don't think that it would be overwhelmingly popular. And the big thing you've got to think about in Germany as well is how deeply unpopular VAR video review has been, and how even when teams are having decisions which could go in their favor, being ruled, one of the things you hear in the stadium without fail every time from ultras of either side is, "Football mafia DFB" chanted throughout the stadium, which means football mafia, German FA.

Which is they see the German FA as being corrupt, and they do not approve of VAR. And they would rather have a game without video review if it meant that they had or what felt like their sport again. So I think they have to be sensitive towards these kind of ideas. And from experience, putting these ideas out in the media is also to just dip your toe in the water and to get a feel of what the atmosphere would be like towards such a decision.

Grant Wahl:

So we're recording this on August 24, coming out a few days later. What's your sense of the Bundesliga season so far? What's stood out to you?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Bayern are pretty good, Grant, in comparison to everybody else. They don't seem to miss Robert Lewandowski as much as some people wanted to think they would. I thought they might a touch, but I also recognize that with three games into a 34-game season, and that there is effectively a longer winter break in the Bundesliga this time. When things shut down in November, it won't come back again until just after mid-January. I know that because I've booked my holiday after then to make sure it coincides with that. My point overall, though, is that Bayern starting the season well, or not even that, Julian Nagelsmann as a coach, starting seasons well, has never been an issue for him, whether he's been in Hoffenheim or RB Leipzig or now at Bayern, his teams tend to come out like a train. The real crunch is going to be what happens in the Champions League.

That is where he is under a lot of pressure to perform. And I think those are where the question marks are over him as a coach in making sure that the team can show the kind of variability with their play that they've been showing in these early weeks of the season, tearing apart Bochum, Frankfurt and RB Leipzig as well in the German SuperCup. That's where the big question mark is for me. Borussia Dortmund aren't strong enough at fullback for my liking. I think that they were also hugely knocked back by Sebastien Haller's cancer diagnosis, and that's been on a human level just terrible to see somebody who was so at the top of their game as well to then have to experience what he has.

So you have Bayern and Dortmund, and you have Leverkusen and Leipzig both in crises of their own, which is something which was unexpected. Leverkusen were talking themselves up for a Bundesliga title. Now they are having to make sure that they don't get sucked into mid-table, even at a very early stage. They've lost every competitive game so far. And the light side of this all is having underdogs who do far more than some of their parts suggest they should, such as Union Berlin under their coach Urs Fischer, who's been there quite a while. Now, Christian Streich, who's been there even longer of a while in Freiburg, and seeing what they're able to do and compete at this top end of the league with the likes of Leverkusen and Leipzig on budgets which are incomparable.

I think there's always something of a honeymoon season before the start of the European campaign for clubs across Europe. Once you get into these three-game weeks or English weeks, as they say in Germany, then you start to see the full mettle of the team. But yeah, Bayern are my favorites for the title, surprise you there. Just wouldn't quite run away with the whole, well, this is going to happen every week. It looks very obvious to say that when we're this many games into the season, but Bayern are also playing pretty much a game of week right now, and when that is the case I think they are naturally going to be stronger.

Grant Wahl:

Can you share your story about, you mentioned this, you grew up in England. You're in Germany, how did that come about?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

I should clarify, my name is a mixture of English and Scottish. However, it has been to my advantage that because people can't identify where it's from, there have been times since I started covering German football where people in England are like, "Oh wow, your name sounds really German." And then you come to Germany and people are like, "Where the hell are you from? You're definitely not from here." I went, "Oh yeah, yeah, you guys have recognized it, right." So, yeah, I grew up as a Fulham fan. My dad used to take me to Craven Cottage. My favorite player growing up was Brian McBride. I even once wrote about him for an English essay, which was like a mock exam. And because at the time I used to go on football courses at Fulham's training ground, because it was around the corner from where I lived, it meant that we had as a family contact to one of the Fulham physios at the time, because my parents had really bad back problems. And I got to know the kit man. And I'm saying, I get to know the kit man … as a 12 year old who was hanging about.

And he was waiting for his kids to come out of the football course as well. And so as a result, one morning, because I happened to do well on this piece on Brian McBride, and my dad wanted to see it, brought it home. And one of the physios happened to be there that day. And he goes, "Oh, could I borrow this?" Dad goes, "Yeah, sure." And I get home from school a couple weeks later, and there was a signed pair of boots from Brian McBride, being like Best wishes Brian. I was like, yeah, he was my favorite player already, but yeah, that was put in gold in my head for the rest of my life. So yeah, that's a little bit about, I guess, how I was a Premier League nerd.

Grant Wahl:

I've got questions though. I've got more questions. So why Brian McBride, why was Brian McBride your favorite player?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

He just had this heart on his sleeve, always committed. He would always go in where it hurts and would still emerge, battered and bruised, and just had this whole aura to him. He never kind of walked out anywhere without his chest out wide. And I think he was just great. His whole attitude was something that I really looked up to as a teenager and playing football. And I think you want to think that the guy that is leading the line for your team is tough and is able to kind of to come back. And I remember when he had a terrible knee injury that he sustained against Middlesbrough. And for me, one of the great things about the great escape that Fulham then did that season was that he came back from injury and helped score, and he he scored again just after he'd given me his boots. So I thought that it's like, well, because you've got rid of your unlucky pair of boots, you're now scoring again. So you're welcome.

Grant Wahl:

Have you ever had any contact in your media career with Brian McBride?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Actually, yes. For the first time, about a year or two ago, about two years ago, when I was working with somebody who knew him. And I told that person that he was my idol or whatever. And then that person was all too happy to be like, "Oh, he's my mate. I'm going to ring him right now." I was like, "You're kidding me." And I've had to interview people who have won World Cups and achieved more than Brian McBride did in his career. And yet suddenly I felt like I was eight years old again and was just like, "Oh God, yeah. Hi, hi." Yeah. Well, I say eight. I think he was playing with Fulham probably when I was about 11 or 12, to be honest, around about that time. I've forgotten the years now.

But yeah, someone took a photo of my face when I was on the phone at that moment because we were at a bit of a group dinner, and I looked like a child at that moment. So yeah, I think it's for the best for Brian that I don't have to work with him, because, yeah, it's difficult.

Grant Wahl:

I will say this, that like you, I don't get starstruck interviewing very famous soccer players. And yet the only times I do are when I have to interview some childhood hero of mine, and then I turn into a puddle, and it's kind of embarrassing in a fun way.

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Exactly.

Grant Wahl:

And so how did you get to Germany?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Good question. I had no German roots in my family, and my first real contact with Germany and German football was I got to go on a history trip at school. I remember being in Nurnberg hearing about the history of these very important steps that we we're on. Not remembering that because in front of us were loads of Nurnberg fans streaming towards the stadium, which was also in front of us to their game against Hansa Rostock, which they drew 1-1 but we didn't get to see, but I still remember looking up the score, it was February, 2008. Jan Koller scored. That's what I can remember, so that lit something in my head. And then I went Interrailing with some friends straight after leaving school and went to look around the Allianz Arena, went to the Olympic Stadium, and something in my brain caught fire a little bit more.

And then particularly when you're going into a stage of your life, like university, where let's face it, you have more time to do more pointless things. If you're on a certain degree, which, hey, I had to work hard on my broadcast journal journalism degree, but it also meant that I had spare time in the evenings. And I was watching Bundesliga on betting websites and making sure I had all five games on screen. Not that I would be able to watch them all, but just the thought of being able to watch them all was enough. And then you start to read more and more and you see these things. And I read Raphael Honigstein book called Englischer Fussball, which I thought opened my eyes in terms of the comparisons between the two cultures.

And then I got a very lucky break by doing a piece of work experience with a company who ended up producing European football for BT Sport in the UK, who had the rights. And it just so happened that I'd done work experience with him a year before, I went round the back of a truck at a tennis tournament,where I was working for a local BBC radio station, tried to steal some bacon sandwiches, just as I was putting my hand in, got caught and was just like, "Oh, hi." And at that moment, we agreed to go for dinner. And at that point found out that their producer was looking for somebody who was young, who knew a lot about German football and was willing to work in the coming season. What I realized this meant was he was looking for someone who was cheap, but hey, I was happy to be that person at that point.

And albeit you've got to think about things that are like, it was still enough to get by in London. So I was fortunate on that level. And then a few years later I had the opportunity just through somebody who had helped me with my Bundesliga writing to go and move to Germany and try it there. And BT was supportive in letting me fly back and forth, something which I think I'm too old to do now, but I would fly back three weekends out of four in a weekend in a month to go work there. And it was so much fun. It was so much fun, and in the middle of that, I also was working as a radio producer as well. That's where there was quite a lot going on, but I think that's the nature of the media industry is that you have to do so many different jobs to get started.

And that was one of them. My weekend used to be, I'm going on here. My weekend used to be between 2013 and 2015. I would go to do set-up at this radio station called LBC on a Friday, work there for the day. Go in there at about 11 AM, produce the show at 3 PM, leave there at 7. Go straight over to BT, watch the highlights coming in from France, Germany, Italy, leave there about 11, get back in there the next day about 8 AM just to do final research before then recording highlight voiceover. Helping with production of the show, which went out at like quite late night and then finished at 10. So it was intense. It was intense. But I now enjoy at least a day off on my weekends, and that's why.

Grant Wahl:

Good. I want to ask about your relationship with Derek Rae, because Derek is near and dear to me and a lot of fans in the United States who love his work. And obviously he's doing a lot of games, broadcasting of the Bundesliga for ESPN and also of LaLiga these days too. And it seems like you and Derek have really hit it off. I think it's really cool. And I always look forward to when you happen to be in the same location, as you have been a few times already this season, and share your thoughts together. And how did that come about?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

I first met Derek in 2013 when I was still at uni, and met is a strong word. I approached him in a pub in West London, recognizing, sitting down with my mates and being like, "Hang on, that's Derek Rae." And my mates saying, "Who's that?" I went, "You just don't understand." So I went up to him, and at the time I was trying to get into the industry by hook or by crook, and I'd been practicing my commentary. I'd commentated a game for BBC local radio or recorded it anyway for Hastings United second round FA Cup replay against Harrogate Town, which Derek was commentating for ESPN. And I said, I went up to Derek and I started talking to him and asked him if he'd listened to my commentary. He did, he was very polite about it, which I still appreciate to this day, and gave me a few pointers.

And then as luck would have it, I started working with him on BT Sport things about six months later. And when our paths crossed again at Fox and ESPN, I think we just chatted more. And I think we both have our own passion towards German football, and that very much bonded us. And he's something like an industry dad to me. If I need honest feedback from somebody, then Derek is somebody that I turn to. And I think that we see football, I think we see the world in quite a similar way. Despite the fact that there's, to put it diplomatically, there's a few years between us. And we also both like ELO, so that helps as well.

Grant Wahl:

It is a really cool thing when you find people that you really admire their work are also really good people when it's away from the cameras. And Derek is right at the top of the list of great people I've gotten to know in this industry. He was, I think, Episode 3 of this podcast back in 2020, I think this is like Episode 252. But always appreciated Derek's support and talking to him.

A couple more questions, I really appreciate you taking this much time. You've been very open on your Twitter feed at times about dealing with mental health challenges, which I have always had huge admiration for you doing that. How have you tried to approach mental health and what you say about it publicly?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

With care and sensitivity. Because I realized that my own experiences are personal and that there's an element of me which is still I have to keep certain details for myself. Because I think there can be sometimes a danger of giving too much away and you're giving away too much of yourself. But equally the thing I want to do above everything else is to try and help a couple of other people. And from the messages I've got back from people via Twitter DM, via Instagram, it has worked and that's encouraging. And I just want people to be aware that even I think on days when we forget about things like mental health, I say this in a sporting industry sense, you don't acknowledge mental health when it's the final of the women's Euros on that day, everything goes into a bubble.

But I know from friends from experiencing these kind of events myself, that if anything those are the days where you just need an arm around your shoulder, whether it's physically or verbally from people and just remembering to check in, and just also remembering that there's only so much that you can do. So it's a sensitive topic. I don't say that I know everything about it, because that's also impossible, anyway. As somebody who's not studied it, but having felt it, I think that I can give certain insights into what it's like. And I hope that can also ease the burden on some people who hear what I have to say and may think I can associate with that. And those are my aims with it, really.

Grant Wahl:

I have noticed in your work a real sense of empathy over time, which I admire too. And in particular, I remember during the Euros, the men's Euros, when there was a lot of talk about the rainbow flag and whether stadiums in Germany should post the rainbow flag or the Bayern Stadium should have the rainbow colors on the outside, that you did some really good work that was just very human around all of that. How did you want to approach that and come to the realization of, "I want to talk about this in some real detail publicly”?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Part of it comes from living in Germany, where it's important to take a position on things, and that wasn't overwhelming in the culture that I grew up in. And I think that being exposed to the environment that I am in Germany and in Cologne, which is seen as the LGBTQ+ capital of Germany as well. It is about making a statement and making your position clear and the importance of showing that.

The way that I approached that was just making that clear. And even if it may have seemed to one or two people, are you meant to take more of an impartial stand, whatever that is. I think you've got to at certain points just say, what is right and what is wrong? And to me, it was very clear that this was wrong. So I wanted to say that, and as somebody who had a platform for this, I wanted to try and use that platform that I have. And it was nothing more complicated than that, really.

Grant Wahl:

I assume that those games have stood out to you and your coverage of the sport over the years. What have been some of your other favorite events or games to cover over the years?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Now there’s a question. To cover, I have to say covering Eintracht Frankfurt's run to the Europa League final and Europa League win that they had, seeing them take 30,000 fans to Barcelona and being part of that walk to the stadium and just seeing these white masses. That was a moment that will stay with me, as will the moment where they won it in the final, because I still can't quite believe that they got it over the line, or their recreation of Welcome to Mordor as they brought the trophy back to the main city square there as well. Just so many little human moments or to be honest, surreal moments from that campaign, they stand out as well. And even as well, I think just going to a World Cup for the first time in Russia, back in 2018, seeing how much the world has changed since then and remembering how friendly so many of the locals were there and thinking about everything that's changed now since then as well.

That feels completely, I think surreal is probably the right word there as well in a completely different context. So it's a very privileged job that I have. And also one that I know I have because, look, sure, from what I've described to you, I work hard. Everyone works hard, though. I know that I'm afforded certain privileges by the color of my skin, by the fact that I'm male. I have an English accent, which in the football journalism world I think affords you more than it should. And that I know affords me certain privileges because I know other people in the industry who have had to and do continue to go up against certain barriers when it comes to access, when it comes to going for jobs and the way they're considered.

So I do appreciate more now than I did at the start, by having heard the stories from friends and colleagues, of the kind of things they have to go through that I have something approaching a double or a triple privilege and probably more than I'm listing here as well. And that is something that I don't take lightly and I hope will also change more and more in the coming years. Because I think that the greater the diversity of the people involved in the industry increases the diversity of the views, which are represented as well. And creates a more tolerant society and can hopefully make it not so shocking when say a player, a coach, you name it, finds that the time is right for them to come out in the men's professional game.

Because I think that those are steps that football is still a very conservative sport in the way that it is reported, and indeed in the way that the figures that play are represented. Which doesn't quite answer the question that you had originally, but look … tangents! (laughs)

Grant Wahl:

Which is fine. It also makes me think of, even over here in the U.S., Robbie Rogers, Collin Martin, we haven't had many players come out in American soccer still. And so I really have an admiration for them. There's quite a few more on the women's side, but I also remind myself that even Megan Rapinoe was not out until right before the 2012 Olympics. So she had played in her star-making World Cup, her first one, in 2011, and was not out yet. And she's about as out as can be now, right? But it's still a process. And for the decade or so before that, there were a bunch of players on the U.S. women's national team who were gay and not out. So we hope things continue to change for the better. One last basic question for you. What sort of things do you want to do in the coming years work-wise?

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

(Laughs) I think the pause there probably tells you that I've not given that enough thought. But the truth is I'm still learning. I'm still learning and want to continue doing that. And if I reach a point where that's not the case, which I can't envisage in particular with this job, then maybe something different. But for now I enjoy the challenge of still getting to grips with German grammar, for instance. That's not always easy, and trying to understand the way that different cultures work, and doing that abroad, doing it away from my homeland is something that I really enjoy. So long as it's, to be honest, so long as it's not in the UK, I'm all ears. But yeah, I really enjoy working with ESPN on the Bundesliga and the chance to be able to still tell and share the insights and things that I see on the ground. And, yeah, for now that's enough for me. That's all good.

Grant Wahl:

Archie Rhind-Tutt is a freelance reporter who works for ESPN on the ground in Germany. Archie, thanks for coming on the show.

Archie Rhind-Tutt:

Thanks, Grant. Cheers.

The Interview: Pat Noonan

Grant Wahl — Wed, 31 Aug 2022 13:21:06 GMT

Pat Noonan has Cincinnati in the MLS playoff race (Photo by Andrew Katsampes/ISI Photos/Getty Images)

I really like what Pat Noonan is doing with FC Cincinnati. This was a team that finished dead last in the MLS standings the previous three years, and Noonan has them fighting for a spot in the playoffs this season. How do you change a losing culture? How do you start taking advantage of the fan excitement around soccer in Cincinnati? And why don’t more people talk about Noonan’s special New England Revolution teams from his playing days? All of those things and more came up in our interview below.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is the head coach of FC Cincinnati. In his first year, Pat Noonan has his team in the MLS playoff race after Cincinnati had finished last in the MLS standings for the previous three years in a row. This is a team that has been fun to watch this season. Pat, congratulations on what you've been doing, and thanks for coming on the show.

Pat Noonan:

Thanks for having me, Grant.

Grant Wahl:

Lots to talk about here, but I'll start by just being straight up and asking: What in your mind have been the keys this season to putting Cincinnati in a position to challenge for the playoffs?

“I want this club, our coaches, our players, the fans, I want to experience holding trophies.” — Pat Noonan

Pat Noonan:

I think a combination of things. I think early on in understanding how we wanted to play was certainly going to be important. It was never going to look perfect and still doesn't look perfect, but what that was going to look like and maybe some of the differences individually and collectively from a previous year or two. I think adding some culture pieces was important, so some experienced MLS players that have been a part of championship teams and had success, I think that was very important. And I think putting players in a position certainly to succeed and bring out the best in their individual talents and how that helps the collective. I thought that was a priority, it was certainly some very talented pieces, and I have to say I'm fortunate to have a very good staff, a support staff around me to help me along the way in my first go-around.

Grant Wahl:

And we're doing this interview on Thursday, August 25. The news today is that Brandon Vazquez has signed a new contract with the club. What's the significance of that? And how would you describe Brandon's role in the team this season?

Pat Noonan:

Well, the significance is we keep a very important piece of our group, somebody that's certainly contributed in many ways to helping our team be in a better position than it was before the year started. So we're very pleased to have rewarded Brandon with a well-deserved contract extension and pay raise. He's an incredible character, something that embodies everything that we want here at the club with his on field performance, with his team-first mentality, with his locker room presence. He's been outstanding, and he's a hungry player.

He's not settling with where he's at. I think that's why he's had the season he has, is because he's looking to improve, he's constantly asking questions of what he can do better, how he can be more efficient with and without the ball. So a lot of credit is on the character and the mentality of Brandon and where he's at in his development and certainly on-field production.

Grant Wahl:

We've got a bit of an unusual situation with the U.S. men's national team. It's a World Cup year, and nobody has really taken the center forward position in a major way for this U.S. team during qualifying. Even though Brandon Vazquez hasn't had time with the national team really, do you think he should make the World Cup team or at least have a really good shot at it?

GrantWahl.com is a reader-supported soccer newsletter. Quality journalism requires resources. The best way to support me and my work is by taking out a paid subscription now. Free 7-day trials are available.

Pat Noonan:

I think with the form that he's in and if he continues in this way, he certainly is right there in the conversation. I understand the bias in that comment. You're seeing the production short-term right now with our number nines around the world and scoring goals, Brandon's in that mix. I think you're seeing a lot of players that in that position sense an opportunity in a couple months time, and certainly Brandon's one of them.

So I think, Grant, if he continues in the form that he's in, just in terms of goal scoring alone, because that's such an important part of that position, that his name will continue to be brought up in the coming months. And certainly I think there's still things at the international level that if he wants to make an even stronger case, we can improve on some areas with and without the ball to help continue to make him a stronger player and a more complete player. But I think it would be silly to not have his name involved in the coming months if his form continues.

Grant Wahl:

When a team has had as much losing as Cincinnati had had in the previous three seasons, what did you do when you arrived to say, this is going to be a new culture inside this team?

Pat Noonan:

The message early on was to try to create a belief, but a belief that was realistic and not giving these players and this group, staff members, everybody involved, a false sense of reality. It was not going to be perfect early on, we're going to lose games, we're still trying to build relationships and figure each other out. This is our first go at it with our particular group, so there has to be a level of open-mindedness in terms of new ideas and failures short term as we work through some things, whether it was, again, how we want to play, whether it was expectations and accountability.

We talked a lot about those expectations and accountability in the early days, and I think players along the way deserve a lot of credit for being willing to take on new information, new ideas and being challenged in ways where they were going to be uncomfortable at times. But I was always going to be honest with them as far as what I felt in trying to not just look at wins and losses, but how are we progressing and improving as a group with the understanding that winning is important.

Winning is important for this club based on what you said, the previous seasons and not having success. So in this early phase, how can we find results when we're not at our best, when our opponents won't be at their best? And I think despite starting the season slow, we were 2-5 after seven games, the players still believed, we still believed, I think we were able to find ways to win games that put us on a stretch of four wins and it got us above .500, and I think early on that was really important in terms of the belief and the confidence of the group.

And so we're sitting here today still .500. So I think there's been a lot of improvement in different ways than just the results. But early on, it was just going to have to be that everybody was willing to take on new ideas and new information, but the importance of trust in the process. You hear that all the time, but if we're going to do anything special, if we're going to have a season that's just not about subtle improvements, if we want to make big improvements, then there has to be this willingness to be open to new ideas and failures, but find ways to push each other and find ways to create an environment where we could survive moments of struggle, and I think we got that from the players in different ways and some slower than others. Because I think we're seeing progress from individuals that early on really struggled, and so those players buying in more to certain things has helped our group become more complete. Again, putting results aside, I think we're much stronger now than we were even two months ago.

Grant Wahl:

Chris Albright is the general manager there. How would you describe the relationship you and Chris have built over the years and how does it work day to day now?

Pat Noonan:

Well, there's a level of trust that most, I would say, first-time GMs and coaches don't have. Our previous working relationship was strong, and so we were aligned in so many things before this even started. But that helped us hit the ground running in decision making, whether it was players to fit a certain style or culture pieces, those conversations were just easier and quicker and more efficient early on.

And so that previous working relationship was so vital to things moving along early in ways where we could find maybe success quicker than expected, and the day to day is he's right next to me, we're talking all the time, whether it's about training, whether about our players, whether it's about how we can improve the roster. It's daily, and it's very organic, and I certainly appreciate that component of it, because there's no BS with Chris. We can be up front with each other, we don't have to try to please each other, and so I think that really helps in the day to day, and again the efficiency of how we work.

Grant Wahl:

Before you took this job, you had worked as an assistant to Bruce Arena and Jim Curtin. Are there any particular aspects of how they approach things that you've admired and maybe taken on a bit in your own work as a head coach?

Pat Noonan:

Yeah. Good question. Different models, different philosophies, but what I will say is, both coaches have a way of dealing with pressure. This is a high-pressure environment, when you look at just the expectations, wins, losses, how the league has grown and now, how we're perceived as coaches, as players, as a league.

And to see how they managed the day to day when things weren't going well, and then that's not just wins and losses, that's behind the scenes, all the stuff that you just don't see or hear about, they managed it in a really impressive way to kind of put out fires before it got out of control and manage the players, manage their staff in ways where everybody was always moving in the same direction, and I think that's something that can be said for Bruce and for Jim's teams. I was in both of those environments and we were all moving in the same direction, we all had the same goals and we wanted to achieve success together, and I think both managers did that in a really impressive way.

Grant Wahl:

You were a player on some great New England Revolution teams in particular that I still don't think get enough respect in this league today. What do you remember as some of the most special things about those Revolution teams?

Pat Noonan:

The bonds. The bond in the locker room. I don't think there's many that are stronger. And the league was different then, Grant, this was an American league. And a lot of us came through the college system, and so there were a lot of similarities in our pathway to the pros. But that particular stretch, I got there in 2003 and left after the end of the 2007 season. Coming into work every day was so much fun. We loved competing, and we also were so competitive that we fought a lot, but that was part of the environment at that time, and you could have fights daily and we would be laughing about it in the locker room after practice. Or somebody would be winding you up, if I got into it with Jay Heaps, somebody was winding one of us up to see if we could get it going longer, and I think that's what made it such a special group.

We really looked out for each other, on and off the field, in ways where you could see the chemistry on the field and the way we played the game, and that's certainly a product of Stevie Nicol and his management as well, Paul Mariner. It was a special group, and we talk about it all the time. A lot of those players are still in touch, and it's because we had a great connection in the locker room and on the field, and the unfortunate part is we didn't win more championships. Because I think, like you said, maybe it's not recognized because there's not enough titles to back it up, we made three MLS Cups in a row and didn't win any of them. We won the one U.S. Open Cup, and I think that group should have more trophies to talk about, so I think that's probably why it's not recognized more than it could be, but it was a special time certainly.

Grant Wahl:

You're also a St. Louis guy. Originally, St. Louis has always been one of the historic soccer cities in the United States, finally getting an MLS team next season. What sort of influence did growing up in the soccer culture of St. Louis have on you?

Pat Noonan:

Well, I would say in the later stages of my youth, I could sense and then feel just how special that environment was. Because early on it was just, I love to play sports, I loved to compete, it wasn't just soccer, I was playing basketball, I was playing baseball, anything where I could be out with my buddies competing, but then you start to see it at the club level and then really in high school, and I know people talk about this all the time, it was, "where'd you go to high school?"

And our high school soccer culture was special, it was neat, we would get real crowds at our games, and I was really impressed at that time in the Metro Catholic Conference and in the competition we had, and just how neat the game-day experience was at a level where you wouldn't expect it. And so I think that helped drive the desire to want to do it past high school, and it was competitive games, it was talked about in the papers and at school, so you were kind of the big guy on campus, in ways where if you were a part of the varsity soccer team, that mattered, and I think that was pretty cool. And so again, it was me being competitive and being able to grow up in such a competitive soccer environment.

Grant Wahl:

I'm really looking forward to having St Louis in the league next year. I grew up in Kansas City in the eighties and was into indoor soccer and hated the St. Louis Steamers, it was a nice rivalry, so I'm looking forward to having St Louis in the league. In terms of the soccer culture of Cincinnati, that's a different story. I mean, St. Louis has this very historic soccer culture. What have you learned about this soccer culture that's developed now in Cincinnati, Ohio?

Pat Noonan:

There's a lot of pride in the local teams, the local players, anybody that has roots in Cincinnati and represents this town, you could see the pride that it brings to the fans. Obviously, if you look back at just the run in 2017, and again, from an outsider's perspective, I remember watching that run and thinking, "Man, look at this fan base and look at the support that team is getting,” and I think that's what drove the success on the field, certainly, as well as it becoming an MLS franchise. That's created by your fans and by the town and the appreciation for soccer and for their sports teams, and so that was the first taste I got of it, and then now being entrenched in it, it's special, and the scary thing is it can be even more. I think, early on, when you experienced the game day environment, after three seasons of not having success, you could feel the energy in the building was, "Ah, what's it going to look like? Is this team going to be any good? Are we going to win games?"

Where now, heading into a very important game against Columbus, along the way, it's felt different in our home games, and certainly winning games helps, and there's a sense of belief, I think, from the fan base that we're moving in the right direction and their support's been incredible. I'm very fortunate, and we are very fortunate, to have a community and fans that care so much about their team and have been by this team’s side, even in moments of real struggle. So hopefully we can reward them in ways where that fan base continues to grow, and we can create an environment where it's tops in the league.

Grant Wahl:

Two more questions for you, one short term, one longer term. What do you want from your Cincinnati team the rest of the way here in the stretch run to the playoffs to try and get you over the line? What in particular do you want to see?

Pat Noonan:

I would like to see us manage games and situations that show a real belief that we can be a playoff team. I think one of the struggles has been game management, closing out games, closing out halves, how we respond when we score, concede a goal, we can still be better in those ways. Which means I can be better, and so as a group, how can we create more belief and confidence that we deserve to be here, and we should be winning these games? Because I think if we can get over the hump in that regard, we're going to be playing the meaningful games at the end of the year. So that's certainly something that we can improve on, taking into account the first 26 games of the year, and as we close out the year, for me it's how can we position ourselves to be playing in the playoffs?

And I think the game management one is the biggest factor right now, because I think we position ourselves in enough games to get points, whether we've been playing well, whether we haven't been playing well. If we can get that right, and if we can get wins, we're at a point now where we're right in the mix, and being a playoff team is certainly achievable. And I want that hunger from our group to expect to be there because I think it would be really special for this club and for these fans and for this team, for our group, to be competing in the playoffs from where we started.

Grant Wahl:

Last question's even sort of longer term, which is, keeping in mind that any team that gets into the playoffs has a chance to win the whole thing, I get it, but how do you take the next step even higher in future seasons to where you are in the regular season at the top of the standing?

Pat Noonan:

Yeah, I mean, going to the ultimate goals, holding trophies, Grant, I want this club, our coaches, our players, the fans, I want to experience holding trophies. That's why I do this, is to experience, not for myself, but in the team setting, being a champion. And so in the future that's certainly the ultimate goal, but I think in how we get there certainly there's the goals of not just being a playoff team, but hosting a playoff game. For the fans, that's important, and the more you can host the better chance you're going to have playing in front of your home fans, in the playoffs. But not just league play. Can we be a team that's competing in the Champions League?

I think that would be an important step in a goal that has us now not just thinking of league play, but on this continent how can we be a top team? And so I do think it's achievable. With our ownership group, the support we have, their willingness to provide the resources to help us be successful, these are attainable goals. But certainly how do we get there becomes a challenge, and I think those are things in the future that I would love to see for FCC, but we know that there's a lot of work that has to be done to achieve those goals, but I do think that is realistic.

Grant Wahl:

Pat Noonan is the head coach of FC Cincinnati. Pat, thanks for coming on the show.

Pat Noonan:

Thanks for having me, Grant.

The Interview: Nedum Onuoha

Grant Wahl — Mon, 29 Aug 2022 19:20:59 GMT

Man, Nedum Onuoha is a great interview. It’s one of my regrets that we didn’t do one while he was playing in MLS for Real Salt Lake. But we finally rectified that recently, and the result was one of the most enjoyable conversations I’ve had for this platform.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is Nedum Onuoha of ESPN. Nedum played 17 professional seasons with Manchester City, Sunderland, Queens Park Rangers and Real Salt Lake. He also has a terrific new memoir, Kicking Back, that is out in the UK and will be released in October in the United States. You can pre-order it now on Amazon. Nedum, it's great to talk to you. Thanks so much for coming on the show.

Nedum Onuoha:

It's an absolute pleasure, and I might say an honor as well, actually.

Grant Wahl:

Well, for me, too. Thanks for saying that. I just finished your book not too long ago. It is really well done, I enjoyed the whole thing. And I guess my first question would be, how did it come about? Why did you want to write a memoir?

Nedum Onuoha:

You see, I think where you went wrong there was assuming that everybody who writes one wants to write one at the very beginning. I think the way that football, soccer works is you try and be as quiet as possible whilst you play the game. And with that, you kind of don't tell some of the stories that are available. So when I retired, I was doing some punditry work. I was doing some stuff for ESPN, for the BBC and the like, and I realized there that through the training they give you that the reason you're there is to obviously offer the understanding of the game, but then tell stories, because most of these stories have never been heard before.

“To give the MLS credit, it's very different in terms of how it works compared to other leagues, but there's some really, really good players over there, and they keep you very, very honest. People who think they can come over, especially from the UK, and just basically try at 50% and be the best, they're in for a rude awakening.” — Nedum Onuoha

So as I was doing that essentially for a living, somebody came up to me and said they'd like to write my book and I said, "Absolutely not." I could think of nothing worse than sharing everything, but very quickly I realized that that's essentially what I do on a week to week basis now anyway. And not to think that my story is the most important story in the history of the world, but it's a story which hasn't been told, especially through the perspective of the places that I've been to.

There've been some very significant years, whether it was at Manchester City going through the change, whether it was at Queens Park Rangers, where we had a ton of money but then we had some of the most disastrous seasons in Premier League history, or being a foreigner playing in the MLS during 2020 when everything stopped. There's a lot to it. And I really enjoyed, at the end of it, just being able to talk for as long as I did and then essentially putting pen to paper and then that paper turning into the memoir, like you've mentioned. I never started off my career intending to write a book, I didn't finish my career intending to do so, but at this stage of my life it makes perfect sense.

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Grant Wahl:

In the process of doing this book, what are the challenges for you as you're doing it, and what are the rewards of writing a book about your life?

Nedum Onuoha:

Again, even to this point I get a little bit defensive because I think I might be a bit biased, you could say, I think it's a good book, but maybe it's because it's my own life. I'm the master of my own life. But the difficult part, really, was trying to remember all the way back. You soon realize that the way you feel about something today might be different to how you felt in that moment, and your memory of certain things isn’t necessarily as vivid as you would think because you don't have to think about them on a day to day basis. It's almost going back and seeing some of those things, speaking to friends, speaking to family, trying to make sure that the account that we put out is as accurate as it can be, because some of those moments were very significant, whether it's stuff away from the game or stuff in the game itself.

And then ultimately, I like to talk. I like to talk, but I also like to be talked back to as well, so I enjoy conversation. So for me to basically be told that I have to do all the talking now, I found that quite hard, but we did it, myself and the ghost writer. We probably had eight or nine sessions that went on for four hours-plus, of just talking and talking and talking and talking, so fair play to him for being able to find some sense in everything that I said. But then from when it comes out, I am internally a very private person. I enjoy just keeping myself to myself, so to be able to come open with things and understand that from when it's released, everybody's going to have access to it and from there, I have to promote it myself, but also, I've never promoted anything in my life. I like to just be myself and just remain myself to the people that can see me in real life.

So essentially, some people might say that I was selling out by basically doing all the promotion that I did. But then again, there was so much interest around this story, so it was easy to end up talking about it, and I overcame that. I overcame the idea of actually writing a book and overcame the idea of promoting it. And now it's very much out there and it feels really good when people come up to you and say, "I've read it. I enjoyed it. It's really interesting. I've learned lots of stuff about the game of soccer and about your place within it, and the places that you were.” Because ultimately, if people don't like your particular story, well, you can't change it because that's your life. So when people find your life to be interesting and the way that it's written, which I think, to give a lot of credit to Hugh Ferris, the ghost writer, I think it's been written properly. And I think for people who see it, they'll see it's a nontraditional type of memoir. As I said, I'm a little bit biased, but I think it's very good.

Grant Wahl:

I do as well, so you're not the only one.

Nedum Onuoha:

I appreciate that.

Grant Wahl:

You begin the book with a discussion about your name.

Nedum Onuoha:

Yes.

Grant Wahl:

And I think it's important, right? It was important to me to get your name right when I introduced you a second ago. What does your name mean, and what is the proper way of saying it?

Nedum Onuoha:

My full name is Chinedum Onuoha, and Chinedum means God guides me. Myself and my sisters, if you see a Nigerian person with Chi in their name, C-H-I, it means God. Traditionally, there's a lot of faith in Nigerian households, so that is instilled in our name. And for my parents, it's not just a throwaway name where they thought of it within five minutes. They're speaking to their parents, they're speaking to their relatives and the like to come up with something. And when they give you that name, it has real meaning for them, and they want it to have real meaning for you.

So then when I'm being raised in Manchester, being raised in England, and it's a name which people are very unfamiliar with. Unfortunately, lots of people then see it as unfamiliar and decide then it doesn't matter, so essentially to have people say, "Ah, I don't know how to say it," so they'll just call you a different name. "Oh, I don't know how to say it." But when you look at it, the letters are still from the same alphabet as other people's and they know how to say, for example, the name Siobhan, even though if you asked a child to write Siobhan, who's never really seen the name before, you probably wouldn't go S-I-O-B-H-A-N. So it can matter for some, but for some reason they didn't want it to matter to me, so I spent most of my, I'd say life, overall, being told that your name's different and as a consequence, people don't want to try.

So for me, I know the thing I appreciate more than anything is people attempting to get it right because they know how important someone's name can be, and even if you get it wrong after attempting to get it right, then some people say, "Oh, how do you say it?" and that's when I know that the people who I'm spending time with actually care about me and other people, instead of the ones you decide, "Well, this isn't for me, so let's just move on and forget that ..." As well as a name, it's a person behind that name and, for me, they should matter.

Grant Wahl:

Now unlike most professional soccer players, you continued your education in a pretty serious way. Could you explain how far you went with it, what the influence of your family was, and why you wanted to do that?

Nedum Onuoha:

So from my standpoint, and again, this is almost like the stereotypical West African story, you could be good at sport, but so what? You still have to do school and school's always a priority. For as much as they'll champion your successes on the field, it's not going to be at the cost of you not taking your academics seriously. So when I was younger, I was always playing very well for the academy team from the age of 10 at Man City, but I was only able to do it if I was also doing well in school. It didn't matter if I scored three goals on the weekend. If I didn't hand in my homework on the Thursday or if I had a detention on the Friday, I was not going to be playing on a Saturday or Sunday. Whereas for most people, it's the opposite because you're doing well at football, they want to put all the eggs into that basket and make sure that you do everything you can to be a professional. So with that in mind, it meant that every time I played from the academy through to by the time I finished my education around 20, 21, playing felt like more of a privilege as opposed to an expectation because I'd earned the right to be able to be there and to train.

The school system's a bit different in the UK, but I was in school full-time until 15, 16, like everybody has to be. But at that point, when you come in full-time in the academy, it's 16, 17. Most people choose to do a course whereby it's a box-ticking exercise, but myself and a couple others, we continued in college basically, proper qualification. And for me, it just felt like the natural thing to do. So even though I was basically two steps away from the first team, I was still just going to school like everybody else my age would be.

And then it gets really weird because then I'm playing in the Premier League, but I've also got homework deadlines because I'm still in college, so that's the thing that doesn't quite marry up. But again, I ended up doing better in college than I did when I was in high school, and that was because there was an insistence upon myself, by myself and by my family that you take this stuff seriously because this stuff matters, because you never know.

And people say you can fall back on it and so on and so forth, and to a certain extent there was that, but it also just always kept me grounded because for as good as I might have played on Saturday, I still had college on Wednesday. I still had college on Thursday. I needed to make sure I was ready on time and handing my homework. So yeah, it was good and it helped me, in some ways, just again, just appreciate football more because I made my debut at 17 and for some, that means it's the end of everything else apart from soccer. But for me to have something else going, it kept me levelheaded, kept me working hard, and I think overall I've turned out okay.

Grant Wahl:

And your parents were also extremely educated. What had they achieved?

Nedum Onuoha:

My mother had a PhD, so she was known as doctor and she made sure that everybody knew she was doctor wherever she went. Every away game, when you would leave tickets and stuff, she always made sure on the envelope that was going to go out to be collected, it was Dr. Antonia Onuoha. And my father, again, was also really well educated. He was teaching and he's an engineer, that type of thing. They were both incredible, really, for the amount of hard work they had to put in from the places they came from as well. But again, it sort of set the bar because they were working so hard and still working so hard to give myself and my sisters just the best opportunities that they could without essentially being able to afford it.

So sorry, my mom's PhD was in environmental sciences, by the way, so she was special, he was special, and for me I felt inspired and I think my sisters did as well, because they were going above and beyond. And now as I'm a father of three and I see how much it costs to put kids into school, I think to myself, "Oh my God, it feels expensive for me now, and I had a 17-year career.” So for them who didn't have anything of the sort, you realize the length they went to try and do the best that they could for you, that they were very inspirational and they drove myself and my sisters to try and be the best that we could be or at least give us the best opportunity to do that. And I think overall, I think they're proud of how we ended up.

Grant Wahl:

Now we are going to have a focus on your time in Major League Soccer at Real Salt Lake, because I'm very curious to hear your thoughts, but I am going to ask a couple of questions before then. And one is about a guy, Micah Richards, who has gotten better known in the U.S., especially, I think, in recent years, now that he's doing studio for Champions League for CBS. His voice and Joe Hart's voice comprise the foreword to your book. Why was it important to have those two guys be in your book right at the start?

Nedum Onuoha:

Well, again, for the book situation or the creation of the book, there's a certain plan that you can sort of have in play and it can look a certain way, but I've always been perceived as being different even within the field when everybody else is the same. And with the book, it was never designed to be a traditional autobiography, so we went for something that was a bit different, a bit quirky, and a bit 2021 because they had to do it over Zoom, that sort of thing.

They're two good guys who know me very well. They know me very well on the field and off the field, and they're also a little, not silly as such, but they care about me enough to want to do that on my behalf, but then also keep it very, very true and honest instead of something which was just mocked up by somebody because they had to do it. They wanted to do it. We had the idea, they wanted to be involved, and they were very much themselves and they went off piece. They said all sorts of things, and you should see the stuff that didn't make the book.

I think it gives you sort of an ideal representation of how I fit in with two people who are pretty consequential when it comes down to soccer in the UK, and especially at Manchester City. And for Micah, everyone sees him on CBS doing what he's doing and for Joe, he's still playing for Celtic, winning leagues and stuff, that's a former England number one. It just goes to show that sometimes you forget how, for me, anyway, I forgot how significant some of my friends and teammates were and how significant that era was because when you look back, for those two, they were a big part of it. And yet still we're as close as we are. And in some ways, we've outgrown even that particular moment, we're still friends to this day.

Grant Wahl:

It's also interesting. I did a chapter in my last book on Vincent Kompany and spent a fair amount of time with him and really enjoyed learning from him talking about the sport. But I giggled because I didn't realize that, as you mentioned in your book, you introduced him to the woman who would become his wife.

Nedum Onuoha:

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. He's still not paid me for that! You know what I mean? I set up his entire life and he has still not thanked me thoroughly enough for that. I was friends with his wife before he came to England. And then from when he came, I actually knew him through a mutual friend who used to play for Manchester United. And we ended up going to Hamburg while he was out there and spent maybe two or three days with him. I really liked him.

And then he came over to City that summer. And then I say, "Oh, Vinnie, I'd like you to introduce you to my friend," and here we are now over a decade later and they've had multiple kids, have lived together, traveled together, going to spend the rest of their lives together. And I'm thinking, "Hey, you're welcome," because maybe, just maybe if he didn't have his wife, maybe he wouldn't have played as well as he would've done for Man City. And to add to that, he took the number four away from me after I left. So basically, the reason City is successful is because of me introducing Vincent Kompany to his wife. Does that make sense?

Grant Wahl:

Makes perfect sense. That's a great story. I mean, there are some similarities with you and Vincent Kompany. Education, you both have continued your education into your playing career, tremendous quality on the field. Both of you have dealt with injuries in your career extensively. And I remember talking to Kompany about how he tried not to be too down about the injuries that he had in his career and used it as an opportunity to, I don't know, learn more about how coaches viewed the game or things like that. How did you approach dealing with the injuries you had?

Nedum Onuoha:

I think one of the big differences was, as far as Vincent goes, most of his major, major injuries or when he was perceived to be injury-prone was more towards the back end of his career, whereas for me it was at the start. So at the start, I knew no better that thing about you can't put a price on experience. You want to know and feel that everything's going to be all right and, say, look into coaching, but I'm not going to be looking into coaching when I'm 21, 22 years of age. Whereas for him at that point, he's probably played 4, 500 games. He's captain of the club, he's been successful, so he can look at things in a more measured standpoint, especially because he had his wife, he had kids and stuff. So at that point, there is stuff away from football itself.

And to give him to give him credit, because this is one side of things that probably doesn't get discussed enough, is when you're fit and you're playing week in, week out, and you're playing well and your team's winning, it's without a doubt, in my opinion, the best game in the world. It's incredible. It's a global game watched by everybody. And when you're playing in the Premier League, you know every single time you play, there are millions of people tuning in from everywhere. That's incredible. But then as soon as you become injured, the game moves on very quickly from you. For week one, they might say, "Oh, such and such is out for a while," but then after that, you don't get mentioned again and you still have to see the highs that go on with the people playing and also think to yourself, "I want be out there. I want to be out there."

Well, you can't speed it up. You're there for as long as it takes to get back, but then you don't know how long that really is going to be. And when you come back, will you be the same? There's so many potential doubts in your mind when that's the case. And then for someone like Vincent towards his time at City at the end, you'd come back and before you know it he'd be back out again. So that was a big test for him, and the fact that he got through it doesn't surprise me because of the man that he is, but he'll be very open and honest and say it was very, very difficult.

And I think that side, that human side of things, you don't see it because he doesn't get covered because it's not newsworthy, but it's this huge, huge part of dealing with being a professional athlete in essentially any sport and the way he overcame that, was able to leave City a legend, and now he's back in England coaching, fair play to him because a lot of people in that instance probably would've just quit and packed it in.

Grant Wahl:

One thing about books, especially memoirs, is I know publishers to some extent want you to be honest about people that you didn't always have great relationships with. It seems like you have had great relationships with so many people in the game from teammates, coaches, what have you, but you're honest in this book about a couple of figures. Roberto Mancini is one in particular, and I'm wondering how, for you, someone who's by nature sort of quiet, as you say, how tough was that for you to be honest about in a way that I don't think having read this now, that you're taking unnecessary shots, this is just the real story?

Nedum Onuoha:

So even to this day, there are people who've wronged me, who I can't just go and just attack. I try and put balance because I think that whoever they were, they still had value in any particular instance. Whether it was someone like, say, Joey Barton, who was a good player but I thought he was a bad teammate. So I can talk about the bad teammate stuff, but I will reference the fact that he deserved to play, just purely on an ability standpoint because he was an important player for where we were.

And for Roberto, he brought success to Man City, but he did it in a sort of villainous way, whereby people didn't really buy into who he was as a person. And so when I'm writing the book, I've told some of the stories before and, again, I try and be reasonable. I don't want to come across as being really bitter about something, even though essentially at the time I was, and I think that's because I have more closure now and I understand exactly who I am. I've had my career. I've had my moments. And though that era, that time doesn't affect me anymore, it really affected me then.

When he first came in and the way I felt I was being treated, I was having sleepless nights about it. It was probably the lowest point I've had as a footballer to not be able to sleep because you are wondering, "What's next? What does this mean? What does that mean? Why has he done this? Why has he done that?" And then for me as well, being a logical person, I can deal with most things if I can understand the why or somebody tells me why. So to never have the why was what made me spiral, to be honest.

But now at this stage, knowing that I've overcome it, and even though he didn't give me the why and don't get a closure, I can't go back and affect it, so I can just tell the story now. I can say how I thought he was a villain without getting angry about it as well. And I think that's the key thing, because in the words I'm not trying to show emotion in terms of how I feel about him today, but tell you about how I felt in the moment and how lots of other people felt in that instance as well.

And that's true insight, I believe, to being a professional because whilst you're playing, you don't do anything that might take momentum away from the bigger picture, and so you say nothing because you don't have anything good to say. But then from once it's over, you can be more honest and say how it was because at this point, it's not like a richer history. It's just a more honest depiction and in the time, showing, essentially, you did everything you could to try and not affect the team even though you were in a bad spot yourself.

Grant Wahl:

You end up connected to Mancini leaving Man City and you go to QPR, and I'm leaving out a lot of stuff here, obviously.

Nedum Onuoha:

That's fine. That's fine.

Grant Wahl:

You end up in 2012 playing for QPR against Man City in one of the most historic Premier League games of all time.

Nedum Onuoha:

Yes, that is exactly right, and it was also teed up to be one of the most stressful days of my entire life because I left halfway through the season, at the end of January, to go to QPR. The only reason I really felt comfortable going to QPR is because the old Man City manager, who was replaced by Mancini, was Mark Hughes, who went to QPR, and he was playing me before Mancini came in. So when he said he wanted me to come into play for him, it felt easy because the last manager that I was playing under was this same guy.

So I went and I never wanted to play in the Championship, never wanted to be relegated or anything like that, but all of a sudden the threat is pretty much there as we were fourth or fifth bottom for the majority of the second half of that season. So to then come back to City and to be playing against City for the first time, for the first time in arguably the biggest game of my career, where I'm thinking, "If this goes wrong, we go down to the Championship," and as far as the Championship goes, that's one of the hardest leagues to get out of because it's just so competitive, so I was stressed.

Also, I knew there was an away locker room, but I'd never been in it. I'd never gone down the stairs and turned right instead of turning left. For years, I've been going there, and now seeing all the same faces as I arrive for the game and they're all saying hello, but this time nobody was saying good luck because they didn't want me to win because for City, if they won, then they won the league. So to be rooted against at a place I used to call home whilst playing against the players I used to call teammates, people like Micah and Joe who were my friends, it was so surreal. The first time you play against your old team is so surreal, especially when I'd been there from 1996 or 7 and here we were in 2012, playing against them for the first time.

It was truly horrible, mentally, for the week leading up to it, and then when the game was going, it was so many highs, so many lows, but the biggest high was the one that came after the lowest low, because as that third goal went in, I thought we were going down and I was heartbroken. But then 5, 10 seconds later, when you see everybody in the stadium celebrating, including the Queen Park Rangers fans, it's the ultimate high because I had achieved what I wanted to achieve, which was stay in the Premier League with QPR. And I was seeing some of my friends celebrate the fact that they'd won their first Premier League and it was at the expense of Manchester United. I didn't need to say that, but I apologize.

Grant Wahl:

Thanks for sharing that. Obviously, we are going to skip over stuff because I want to go and talk about the United States, playing for Real Salt Lake. What went into your decision to come play in the United States?

Nedum Onuoha:

At the end of the 2018 season, I'd been at Queens Park Rangers for six and a half years, and I was becoming a free agent and I’d just won player of the season. So I thought I was going to get like a million offers, thought, "I'm the guy. Everything's going to be fantastic." But unfortunately, the way that a players above 30 are perceived in England isn't necessarily according to their true value because people now, they'd rather invest in an 18, 19-year-old, who they might be able to make better and sell on than they would do somebody who's capable of going in and doing the job straight away.

That's not all across the board, but that's the tendency. So I realized that I wasn't going to be able to do what I thought or wanted to do because I was looking to maybe see if you can get back in the Premier League, but I didn't have those options. I had one or two in the Championship, but for the amount of money and stuff they were offering, it basically opened up the whole world market.

So I thought, "Oh, it'd be nice to see Europe," because I'd been watching the MLS, been watching other leagues around Europe, and thought maybe this is the time to do it, and my wife was ready. My eldest child at the time, I think she was four, so we're thinking, "Well, this is a good time to do it. We can move and not really affect too much." So nothing was coming up in Europe because again, there's a big youth mentality to it. And then I saw Michael Mancienne and Wayne Rooney move to the MLS and I thought, "Hmm, that's really interesting."

Then, I'll be honest, you watch the MLS, but you don't know how the MLS works, but upon seeing those two go, I started to pay attention to how it works. So next thing, I'm looking at teams with international spots, seeing when the window closes, seeing how things are done, how people are traded, links to this team, that team, and I realized there were probably four or five options. One of them was Orlando, I think, and they were bottom. I'd just seen them lose four games in a row by like a billion goals. So I thought, "Well, maybe they'll be interested in a defender." And then my agent spoke to them and they said, "No, we're okay for this year." I was like, "Okay." I'm not used to that sort of mentality where it's okay to continue to concede, but I was like, "Fair enough."

And then there were a few other teams, and they were saying basically the summer window isn't the prime window, especially for when it was for me because this was July time, July, August. So I'm just waiting every day, waiting, waiting, waiting. And then I got an offer. Real Salt Lake said they were going to put an offer in for me. And then she was like, "Salt Lake? I know nothing about there other than the fact there was a Winter Olympics." So I do my research, and people who were saying they could get me to MLS were saying, "Oh, I can take you here. Take you there." The way they sell it to players from England, they say, "Oh, get you on the coast. I'll do this. It's New York. It's California. It's all that stuff," disregarding the fact there are like a million teams in the middle as well.

So they said, "Yeah, I'll do all that but whatever happens, we won't speak to Salt Lake. Won't speak to Salt Lake." And I kept hearing that. "Won't speak to Salt Lake." I was like, "Okay, fair enough." I didn't know any different. And then Salt Lake came in with an offer. I went over there for three, four days to see the team, see the facilities. I landed on a plane. I thought, "Wow, this is beautiful." Went to the training ground. I was like, "This is incredible." Went to the stadium, thought, "This is amazing," and the people were really, really nice to me. And I was like, "I tell you what. I think I can see myself here." So they gave me an offer, which was going to be for the remainder of the 2018 season, all of the 2019 season. And if I play, I think, three quarters of the games, I'd then get the 2020 season.

So I thought, "Yeah, I liked this offer because it'll take me to 34 years of age and at that point, maybe I'll be happy to call it quits. One of the biggest wins I've had in my life was being able to retire on my own terms instead of the game spitting me out. So I had my plan. I said, "I like this," and I knew my wife was going to like it and knew my kids were going to like it. I was at the stadium and everything was great. Then my agent got a call from LAFC and he said, "Okay, they've just come with an offer." So I'm standing there in Salt Lake and you say LAFC comes with an offer. So imagine now, talk about things that break your brain.

Probably the only player that said, "I'll tell you what. No, I don't fancy LA. I'm quite happy to stay here in Salt Lake," but the offer they came up with was one whereby they said they'll sign me up till the end of the season and then they've got the option to play me for the next year. And I thought as a man with three kids looking to try and move somewhere and settle, no, I don't think so. That's not job security. That's basically playing according to their terms. And if I was maybe 10 years younger, then fine, but at this point, no.

So I ended up coming over, brought the family over. They loved it when they saw it in October for three weeks during the holidays. I honestly loved it because I came over and nobody knew who I was in the team apart from maybe one or two people. Nobody knew who I was in the league, and I didn't really know the ins and outs of what it was to be successful in that league, so it was a chance to prove yourself again. And every time you played, you were playing someone for the first time. And the last time I felt like that was when I was 17, 18 years of age playing in the Premier League, and that was so exciting to me.

And I loved traveling around the country. Some people say, "Oh, there's so much travel, planes, blah, blah, blah." I loved it because wherever I went, it was a chance to see a new city, a new city which I might not have gone to on the holidays in the vacation, in the summer when the Premier League season’s finished. I'm seeing Chicago, I'm seeing Kansas. I'm seeing Houston, I'm seeing Orlando. I'm seeing all these places, and I'm playing against all these players for the first time.

The real thrill was we played Vancouver. It's my first home game and a guy was running at me and I didn't know whether he was left or right footed, so I didn't know what I was supposed to do, so it took me into this primal just stop mode and I thought, "This is awesome." And to give the MLS credit, it's very different in terms of how it works compared to other leagues, but there's some really, really good players over there, and they keep you very, very honest. People who think they can come over, especially from the UK, and just basically try at 50% and be the best, they're in for a rude awakening because the quality, it does get better every single year. And I think there are certain clubs and certain players who have the real know-how about trying to be successful, which is why it's always the same sort of teams at the top of the league. And if you can get in there, it's a fantastic experience.

Grant Wahl:

Were there any things you learned about MLS, whether it was structurally how the league works, which were interesting to you or how players take it seriously or don't?

Nedum Onuoha:

Yeah, there are lots of ups and downs, but it's the same with other leagues. First, I'd never seen that level of control from a league before, to the point where everybody's wearing Adidas [kits]. I didn't know that was a thing. That blew my mind because I've been a Nike guy for my life and it's like, "Well, no, you can't wear that over here unless you're endorsed," so it's like, "Okay, that's weird." The transfers as well, the system is very much the system, but it's more linked to the other American sports as opposed to, say, football on a global level, so some people might find certain things hard to explain. Someone might ask, "Oh, what's the record transfer between two MLS teams?" and you're saying, "I think it might be $3, 4 million or something like that," I'm like, "But it's 2022. How's that a thing?" Well, it's because players don't really move and then the transfer situation, you've got the international spots and the DPs are like this. The DPs are earning like $10 million, but this guy's earning $80,000."

It's very confusing from the outside. But once you get into it, you understand. And even the thing about making the playoffs, I understand it so much more now than I did when I first came, because in my mind, I thought it's not a strength to be rooting to finish sixth. But then when you see how it fits in with the mentality of American sport overall, when you're talking about the NFL, the NBA, NHL, the playoffs are when the game really comes to life and I think that in itself, from when you understand it, you buy into it. You don't poo-poo it because it's great to finish first and that's a credit in itself, but it's a rush to see people wearing those ski goggles and have the tape and stuff over the locker when they've won everything. That's incredible, and I get it. I really do get it.

But the downside, to talk about the negative, is when you play abroad, some of the clubs have been there for over a hundred years, so it's generational support and stuff that they had and they really represent that space, to the point where it's life or death to a certain extent. Which is probably a bit too much, but it means you play in a different manner because every time you put on the jersey, you're representing a lot of people in a really, really deeply connected way. And so when things go well, great. You get held up by the arms of everybody in the city, but when things aren't going well, it's a tough spot to be in.

But I found in the MLS it can be very quickly just moved on from, and it's because realistically, nationally, the coverage isn't there. We're not being debated on First Take every morning. As soon as the NFL season finishes, they're debating who's going to win the Super Bowl the next year. There's all that type of stuff there. There are some players who play, I know, because you play with no consequence, that ultimately doesn't really matter if you win or you lose. And the more people you have in your roster who are like that, the harder it is to be successful because when things are going well, it's the easiest game in the world or when things are going badly, is someone prepared to give that extra 1% to try and make the difference, go out of their comfort zone? And unfortunately, the answer's no, especially in a league where you kind of have to fill all the roster spots across the way, and so they can just come back the next year with the option and not play again and then be happy to do so.

Grant Wahl:

It's funny because a few years ago when Zlatan Ibrahimovic's book came out, I interviewed him. And when people write in their book stuff about their career, it gives you license, even though I had never interviewed Zlatan before at the time, to ask him, "Why do you dislike Pep Guardiola and Louis van Gaal so much?" because I had just read it. Now, you have a section about Zlatan Ibrahimovic in your book, and there was a thing between the two of you at one point. Can you share it?

Nedum Onuoha:

Yeah. So this could probably fall into the realm of certain negatives within MLS because I find that because it's so driven by the stars because it wants to grow, at times the stars can get treated in a way which other people will not get treated. They'll go over the top to protect people or to promote them when they don't sometimes deserve it. And so for Zlatan, he came, he scored a ton of goals, but some of the soundbites that he gave off weren't beneficial to the league itself, because he brought a lot of fans on board from his general hive. But then those fans were also critical of the MLS because he was critical of the MLS. So ultimately, did he actually add value to the league during the time he was there? And for me, I'm not fully sure.

So for example, he said, "I'm like a Ferrari amongst Fiats." The only people that shouldn't understand that are people who've never seen a Fiat before, but let's just say it's two completely different cars. So when he talks about the league and stuff like that, it would upset me a little bit, especially because some of my teammates, they'd be laughing at it. I'm saying, "Don't laugh. He's trying to humiliate you. He's talking about you in a negative manner."

And also the way soccer goes in the UK, nobody really says anything about anybody because if you do, you get the full treatment from whichever team it is that you play against. And that's not just in the top tier, you could be playing against the team in the fifth tier or a bunch of guys that live down the road that want to play against Man City. And if you disrespect them, they will kick the living daylight out of you. But in the MLS, that was never really the case. So Zlatan, he'd say what he'd say or whatever.

So we were playing in a game against Galaxy at their place, and I think it was 0-0 at halftime. We came back out for the second half and he grabbed me around the neck and threw me to the floor. So I was on the floor, I was looking at him. I said, "What are you doing?" And he started just telling me to get up, effing get up, do this, do that. I said, "Who are you talking to?" So I got up, and now I'm riled because he's trying to treat me like I was in the wrong, and I'm not having that. I'm in his face, ref's telling us to calm down, players trying to hold us back and so on and so forth. So I'm all in now, I tend to just play the game. I'm tough but I'm fair, but now I'm going to be tough and unfair, so we're playing. I do something wrong. He's laughing. He's mocking me. He does something wrong. I'm laughing. I'm mocking him. I'm playing with as much pressure as like a proper battle.

He said, after the game on TV, he says that's what he needs to feel alive, he said, because he was getting a bit bored, so he does stuff to just rile people up, but he ended up scoring the winning goal, and I was devastated. There's a picture where he is laughing in my face, but if you notice, my eyes are closed and I didn't see it because if I saw it, I probably wouldn’t have done nothing, which is probably a good thing.

But again to the MLS thing, after the game one of our players, Sam Johnson, who we had at RSL, he was asking to take a picture with him. This is after I've been feuding with him for 45 minutes basically, and he's just scored the winner and we've lost. So we go into the locker room afterwards, I'm furious because we've lost and we deserve more because I thought we played well that day. And then in he came, he's asking me have I calmed down yet. This is five minutes after the game's finished. And to be honest, to be clear, that doesn't happen for anybody listening. Nobody from the opposition side comes into the other team's locker room straight after a game, barely at all. But he did it, and I don't know him. He's not my friend. I didn't welcome him in. He's coming in and he is trying to humiliate me. So I politely asked him to leave, ever so politely, in a very aggressive manner, obviously. And there was a bit of video about it, but I was trying to stand up for myself, stand up for my team.

It's not just about the stars. It's about us as a collective. If you humiliate one person on the team, it's all of us. We're all in it together. And I stood by that and to be fair, he backed it as well. And in some ways, the next time we played against each other, I thought it was going to be more of the same. But there was more of a mutual respect because he respected me for pushing back against him, whereas most people didn't and they would never, so it was a significant time in the MLS for the two of us having that battle and it made it to the UK. But the downside is that hive who thinks that the MLS is full of Fiats, they were very active on social media coming to find me, let me know that I'm worthless, and I should never, never mess with the lion or whatever. I was like, "Oh, shut up. What are you talking about?"

Grant Wahl:

Oh, shoot. I want to ask you about an off the field topic, but it's a really important one. So you were living in the U.S. in 2020 when George Floyd was murdered by police. You in your career with England were subject to racist incidents, racist chants on multiple occasions in different countries. And I want to be clear here, I did an event at New York University a couple years ago with Lilian Thuram, the French World Cup winner, who ...

Nedum Onuoha:

Was this for his book White Thinking, by any chance, have you seen that?

Grant Wahl:

At the time, it wasn't for a particular book, but it was a discussion in front of a very large audience about his career and what he was doing in his post playing career, where he is focused on racism in sports and society, and it's one of the deepest conversations I've ever had with an athlete. But one thing he always said to me is, "Why do you media always ask the Black players after something like this happens? You should be asking the white players what they think about it."

And so I'm aware of asking the target of racist taunts, there's something about that, but I know that you have very deep thoughts about all of this, what you've experienced in Europe, what you've seen in the United States. And I guess I would be curious to know what those thoughts are, and if it's any different what you sensed in the United States compared to what you sensed in Europe.

Nedum Onuoha:

Yeah. So Lilian Thuram is very, very deep with his thoughts, and I am reading his book White Thinking. He makes some points in there, which I never really perceived before. For example, he asked the question, not just what is it to be Black, he says, "What is it to be white?" And a lot of white people who he came across when he asked that question, they get really defensive about it. But surely that must be a thing if it is a thing to be Black. And another element he has within that is that some of the abuse that, say, some people get, it's not because of what they are. It's because you are not one of them. It's not the fact that you're Black. It's the fact that you're not white or, say, you're not part of that majority group, and he is very thoughtful.

And for myself, I found Europe is very, very, very different, depending on which country you go to and which part of the country. And in some ways, you could argue, that's like what the U.S. can be at times. But the difference I felt between the USA and, say, lots of parts of Europe is the USA overall is a lot younger. And when you look at, say, some of the Civil Rights Acts and stuff that have changed, they didn't change 200 years ago. There are people who are still alive who saw that change happen. So certain things have become illegal, but from a sort of cultural aspect, for others, it's still kind of similar, but they just do it in a different way.

I don't walk around in Europe, in England, in the USA thinking everything's fine because I'm acutely aware of the fact that it isn't necessarily always fine for everybody. And there's certain speech, which the country is very much about free speech, but some of that speech is very dangerous and there’s lots of dog whistles and stuff like that. And when you can hear it, in the sense the impact that it's having on, say, people who look like me in that particular country, I know I'm not having the same experience as other people. And that, as I say, just makes me a little bit more cynical. And if I'm more cynical, it means the experience I'm having isn't the same as somebody else who just goes into a shop and sees everything and thinks everything's fine.

I'm aware of how I am perceived from the get go. I know some people perceive me to be a threat. Some people perceive me to be a criminal. This is all around the world. In the UK, for example, in the major cities, there's a ton of diversity but in other places there isn't, so the only people they see like me will appear on their TV screens. If they're watching sport, maybe that's who they perceive me to be. So then the way they talk about people who look like me who play sport will define how those people see me or if they're seeing somebody on TV being arrested for this or they're criminal or that, then all that stuff sort of feeds in.

So I try and be hopeful, but I'm also realistic because there's been so many times where you get let down by your optimism, and I don't enjoy being that person that's optimistic and has to sort of rethink everything because bad things happen. So I walk through the world not expecting the worst, but not believing that everything is good as it could be. And I understand now through the stuff that I've seen that the journey towards a place where everything is equal for all, it might be the longest journey that mankind might ever be on. But I suppose every little step counts, because if it didn't, then we'd still be back where people could be very overt about some of the thoughts that they have, whereas at least now they're trying to do it in private.

And the point you made about why do you only ask Black players, white players and so on and so forth, I think real change comes when it's the white people who are also sticking up for the Black people, not just the Black people sticking up for themselves because together then you form a majority. And if it's majority ruled, then surely that means we'll be in a better situation, as opposed to, say, some of the minorities within any particular situation all banding together and asking to be heard, because at the end of the day if you don't have empathy from another side, then you'll never have enough people to be able to drive change.

Grant Wahl:

No, thank you. I realize we could devote an entire podcast to this topic. And I feel like we're giving it short shrift, but I do want to ask you about your decision to go into media. You're doing work for ESPN, doing good work for ESPN. What went into that decision, and did you have any interest in coaching? Do you have any interest in coaching or things like that?

Nedum Onuoha:

This is without a doubt the only easier question than that is what's your name. No, I had no interest in coaching whatsoever, zero, zilch, to the point where I made a conscious effort to not do any coaching badges or anything associated with having a career in coaching at all. I love the game, but I love playing the game and I love the simplicity of it's between you and your friends or your teammates going out and playing against another side, and I also like walking away from it and moving on to something else. So with coaching, your hours are longer, your pay is less, your stress is more, and you do it for longer. You could potentially do it for the rest of your life, and you see some managers who are working to the bone. I prefer the thought of being able to do whatever I want to do, as opposed to knowing that my schedule is set by that soccer calendar again.

Like, I'm going on holiday in the next couple of weeks and the Premier League season started, and that's fine because I create my own calendar. That really excites me. Someone could say they're getting married in two months time and I'll say, "Perfect. I'll write it down," and I will not work on that day. Can't do that when you stay in the game, so I've no interest in doing that.

But from the media standpoint, I've been running my podcast, which in fairness, has kind of stopped now. I've been running that since 2019, got through, I think, it was a hundred episodes, basically, and I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed speaking to people. And one thing I tried to say to them, as is to be fair the case here, it's my platform, but it's for your voice. It's not for me to grow mine or to tell my story over and over and over. This is for you to be able to talk in a manner which you've probably not been able to before, because whilst you're playing, people tend to ask you questions about the game that’s just been or the game that's to come, and about very specific issues in the moment.

But for the people who come on, there's a chance to relax and talk to a peer and be really open and honest to know that I'm not trying to get you with a gotcha question. This isn't the headline. This isn't going to get clicked. This isn't clickbait. This is you. You can say as much as little as you want, but allow people the opportunity to really see who you are or who you want them to see you as.

So from a media standpoint, I was doing quite a lot of that, understanding how to create shows. I was producing them myself and so on. And I was doing some stuff for RSL, some stuff with BBC. And then just as I was leaving the USA, I was speaking with, I think, it was CBS and ESPN. And ESPN, the way we were talking and the stuff they wanted me to do, it felt good, and I've been doing it for a year and a half. And ESPN FC is the main show that I'm on and I really enjoy it because, for me, soccer isn't life or death, but there's still a lot to talk about. And on that show and the other things which I choose to do, I can definitely do that.

And you can come and be your personality, understand how you fit in with the overall rotation of people on there. It's been probably the best thing to happen to me work-wise since I've retired because it's just so much fun. And because it's based in the U.S., it always happens after 10 PM UK time, so I can really do as much or as little as I want to during the day, and then get the chance to have the second-best job in soccer, which is just talking about it stress free, so I enjoy that a lot.

Grant Wahl:

What other things would you like to do in media at some point?

Nedum Onuoha:

Again, this is an unpopular opinion, but I'm not chasing a career in media. The stuff which I'm doing, everyone who watches the game knows they can get their sort of media from a ton of different places and have a ton of different things, whether it's live streams on YouTube, watchalongs on YouTube, social media stuff, digital written stuff, TV stuff, network stuff, but things I want are the places where you don't have to have a hostile opinion to be able to get a seat on a panel.

So I'm doing the ESPN stuff and doing stuff for the BBC, I did a bit of consultancy for The Athletic, I’m a trustee for the Man City charity, and I do some stuff for them around matchdays. It's five things, but it's not a lot of time that's required to do all five, and I'm still in a position where I can travel the world with my wife, with my kids, but still essentially be paid enough to call it a living.

It's a complete paradox. I'm the only guy that has a book out and is working on certain networks that doesn't promote anything that he does. It doesn't really make sense, but that's exactly who I am. So as a consequence, I don't want to be out there more because I do enjoy the freedom of seeing my friends, seeing my family, being able to travel, and just, as I said, just see the world. And I think if I committed to something full-time there, I think I'd lose that opportunity, and I don't want to do that. I just want to have quality work in the places that I enjoy working. But then outside of that, it's just go crazy, just do anything else because soccer's great, but like I said, the best version of it is playing, and if I can't play then just do other things that bring me that sort of joy.

Grant Wahl:

Nedum Onuoha of ESPN has a terrific new memoir, Kicking Back, that is out in the UK and will be released in October in the United States, which you can pre-order now on Amazon. Nedum, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Nedum Onuoha:

Oh, it was an absolute pleasure and an honor, like I said before.

The Interview: Brian Phillips

Grant Wahl — Tue, 16 Aug 2022 23:07:55 GMT

(Photograph courtesy Brian Phillips)

I have been extremely fortunate over the years to work with and get to know many of the most talented sportswriters of the past two-plus decades. But for the longest time, there was only one sportswriter I would have described as a genius, and that was Steve Rushin, my old colleague at Sports Illustrated.

Brian Phillips is the second sportswriter I would describe that way. When he emerged a bit over a decade ago on his soccer blog Run of Play, I remember reading him for the first time and being dumfounded, wondering how someone so talented could just materialize like that, an American writing about soccer (not exactly the biggest sport here!) on a blog.

Usually, one of the biggest compliments I can give another writer is to say that I wish I had written the story you just wrote. But with Brian’s work, it’s more like: I know I’m not capable of writing the story you just wrote, which absolutely blew my mind. Anyway, that’s how I feel about Brian’s new podcast series 22 Goals, which we discuss below.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is my favorite soccer writer. Brian Phillips has a phenomenal new podcast series for The Ringer that just debuted called 22 Goals, in which each episode uses a great World Cup goal as a window into an era of soccer history. I've already listened to the episode on Dennis Bergkamp's 1998 goal against Argentina, and I can't wait to hear more. Brian, it's great to talk to you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Brian Phillips:

Oh, my gosh. I am so glad that we are finally able to do this. I looked back in my email when we were scheduling this recording, and I found that we first started talking about going on a podcast together in 2018, so we've been trying to make this happen for four years. I think we were both at different jobs at that point. (laughs)

Grant Wahl:

True.

Brian Phillips:

And it's finally come true. Hello.

Grant Wahl:

Hello. It's so great to have you on and get a chance to talk about this because I listened to the Bergkamp episode, it's just one of the episodes, and it's phenomenal. I happened to be lucky enough to be in the stadium when it happened, and all of the stories about Bergkamp are just an absolute treat to listen to. Could you explain to our listeners what this 22 Goals series is and how it came about?

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Brian Phillips:

Yeah, so it came about pretty much because I was getting sort of personally overwhelmed by cynicism and pessimism about the game.

It just seemed like, especially going into this World Cup in Qatar where there's just been so much bad news, so much corruption. Just the whole thing has felt very dark at times. And I think it's really important to talk about that, I do not mean to sweep that under the rug in any way. But I was just feeling that for myself, like for my own sake, I wanted to find a way to reconnect with the joy of the game, to reconnect with what I love about it, with what makes me want to jump out of my chair with happiness when I watch it and kind of reassert that it's that stuff that is the essence of the game. It's not the corruption and cronyism and cynicism. The corruption and cronyism and cynicism are like, they're lice, they're parasites attached to the game, and I just wanted to get back to what seemed to me like the positive essence of all of it and find a way to tell some good stories about goals that I like.

So the basic idea is, just as you said, each episode starts with a goal, we take one goal, some of them famous, some of them not quite as famous, from a men's World Cup, and then use that as an endpoint for a story. We try to say, "Well, if the story ends here, what leads up to that? What do we have?" And just look at everything. There are lots of tangents and funny alleyways to go down, but it's just basically about telling the story of that moment in soccer and that player.

Grant Wahl:

And what are some of these 22 goals that you have chosen?

Brian Phillips:

Well, the list is tightly controlled at this point, I will say. Our social media team is not going to be pleased if I reveal all of them, but I can say that Episode 1 is about Diego Maradona. It covers two goals, you can probably guess which two: 1986, England. So the first episode is Maradona, and next week we are talking about Ronaldo, the Brazilian Ronaldo, one of my favorite players of all time and his comeback from injury and the return to the heights of the game in 2002.

So yeah, I can't go into a whole lot more detail than that, but it's a good list, probably will be controversial at some moments, some things got left off. I'm personally very relieved that Zlatan Ibrahimovic never scored a World Cup goal, because I would've wanted to do eight episodes about that, even if it could've been a tap-in in the first round, a group game that they lost, and I would've been like, "We just have to talk about Zlatan." So I was spared that, but otherwise, yeah. I like the list.

Grant Wahl:

And is it 22 episodes? How much stuff is this?

Brian Phillips:

So it's 19 episodes, because three episodes cover two goals each, so the first episode covers two goals, and then there are a couple of other moments where we talk about two goals at the same time, but 19 is the total. The math does work out. It was very important to me that we actually get the math right, so there were multiple drafts trying to figure out how that was going to happen.

Grant Wahl:

Now one of the revelations here is your podcast voice, which is terrific, and as I've learned personally doing narrative series, it's a real challenge sometimes to find your voice for a podcast, just because you are sort of reading off a script, but you don't want to be sounding like you are reading off a script. And you get it right, man. How would you describe that challenge?

Brian Phillips:

Well, first of all, it means a lot to me that you think so, because I would never have listened to one of your podcasts and thought this was something you struggled with, but it was definitely something I struggled with. I felt like that was the aspect of this that was probably the biggest learning curve for me. And I've been super lucky, just blessed to have a wonderful team of podcast producers and experienced podcast people at The Ringer to work with on this who have really been patient with me and helped me along, because I'm a writer. I've never considered myself a professional talker in any universe, and the whole podcast is basically just me talking, like it's not a chat show. So it was a lot of work to try to find a way to do the scripts in such a way that they would sound reasonably natural, even though it's all planned out in advance. Some ad libs.

Grant Wahl:

On your Twitter announcing the series, you wrote, "If you miss Run of Play, this is very, very much for you." And I nodded aggressively while reading that and I found you originally through your original blog, Run of Play. And I was just wondering, for our listeners who maybe haven't been exposed to that because they just learned about you from The Ringer, from your books, could you explain what Run of Play was?

Brian Phillips:

Absolutely. Yeah. I assume that's most people, because Run of Play hasn't meaningfully updated since about 2011. I think I posted a book announcement there in 2018, but mostly it's been dormant for more than a decade.

So Run of Play was where I got started as a sportswriter and as a soccer writer. Around 2007, I was mostly writing book criticism. I was writing poetry reviews, arts criticism type stuff, which was fascinating and wonderful, but I started to get frustrated with it because I just felt like I was sick of writing about other people's writing. It was just like, it felt like one level removed. I wanted to write about a thing. And I think my wife finally just got sick of hearing me complain about it, and one day I came home and Siobhan said, "All right, I started a soccer blog for you. Here's the address. Update it if you want to." Like, "Just stop talking about how you want to write about soccer and not contemporary poetry or whatever."

So I started a soccer blog in my living room and did that for several years and I felt like over the years it was the exact right moment to start a blog. It was before social media really took off, and we were able to build this community of sort of weird, offbeat, creative soccer writing that tried to find unusual angles and unusual ways to talk about the game. It was probably the most rewarding thing I've ever done. It was super fun, and I do feel like this series is a throwback to that era because it's zany, it's a lot of tangents, it's a lot of experimentation. Like I don't know what I'm doing with the podcast, so I'm totally just finding my way as I go so it feels like the same kind of endeavor. It's been great.

Grant Wahl:

I got to tell you, my feeling when I first saw your work on Run of Play when you were writing about soccer was one of these things that you don't get very often, which is, "This person is just somebody, I've never encountered this type of writing about soccer before." And I'm being honest here with you. Like, it was almost like I could not believe that I had never heard of this person who was American and wrote this amazingly well and distinctively about the sport.

I mean, we're a pretty small community of soccer people still in the United States media-wise, and so you think you know who's who, and suddenly this voice emerges and it still blows me away, that feeling of like, I think I was reading you about Pelé, among other things, so it's really a cool thing to have you right now doing soccer stuff again. And I do get the feeling, listening to this podcast series, it feels a little like reading Run of Play, as you had mentioned. And I guess what's fascinating to me is that you do so much of what you do so well, including what I've heard of this podcast series, without necessarily doing interviews. How do you pull this off?

Brian Phillips:

(Laughs) I think the #1 strategy I have is just be born a terrible interviewer.

Like, I felt, going into this, I know that most podcasts are driven by interviews, and I am terrified of doing interviews, basically, like I felt like my dream version of this, and this was kind of the moment when the idea that I could do a podcast actually clicked and became real to me. My dream version of this was basically just to write essays and then find an incredibly talented person to produce it and an incredibly talented person to write music for it, and then we would have like living essays, you know?

So it was an experiment, and I think probably what made that click for me was listening to another Ringer podcast, which is Rob Harvilla doing 60 Songs that Explain the '90s, which I think is a wonderful show. Rob does interview someone in every episode, but before the interview there's an extended essay which Rob reads, and I just loved those so much and thought, "Well, I can rip that off shamelessly and make a show myself." So sorry, Rob, but that's how we got here.

Grant Wahl:

There are no rights to structure, so you're not stealing anything, my friend. What is your connection? How'd you get into soccer in the first place?

Brian Phillips:

I think, like a lot of Americans, I just kind of discovered it when it started being on TV more in the early 2000s. I did not grow up as a soccer fan. I didn't even grow up playing youth soccer, which probably a lot of people would say explains some of my takes on the game, because I don't always know what I'm talking about. Bbut I think, I was aware of the '94 World Cup, but I was mostly an NFL fan at that point, like I was in high school, I was mostly basketball, football.

And then I got a little burned out on American football, not so much basketball. Probably around the time of the 2006 World Cup, I was getting really into soccer, and I think from that moment, the final of that World Cup just kind of laid me open like no sports event I think I'd ever seen before, the head butt and the end of Zidane's career, and I think I had known who Zinédine Zidane was for about four weeks at that point, but it still was such an intense experience. And from that moment, I was just hooked. I really started following it more closely than any other sport.

Grant Wahl:

What in the soccer world do you like to follow on a week-to-week basis?

Brian Phillips:

That's a great question, and I think that because I'm not a soccer writer like full-time, always, like, I dip my toes into a lot of areas and do a lot of different things, I'm sort of able to just find my own way. And there are definitely times when I'm incredibly focused on one league or another league, like last year I was super into Fantasy Premier League, so I was watching the Premier League much more than any other league. But at other times I've just been like, "I want to watch Messi." So I just watched La Liga for a year and nothing else.

But yeah, last year, FPL just broke my heart and sucked me in. I was in the top thousand in the world after the halfway point of the season, and I was like, "I'm going to win. I'm so good at fantasy." Of course, it's all just luck, and the wheels came off completely, and I went in flames down the mountain. I didn't even finish in the top 50k, but for a while there I was really hooked. I'm not playing again this year, it was too painful.

Grant Wahl:

It's funny because I'm actually playing it for the first time this year, I got invited to join a league and I don't know what I'm doing.

Brian Phillips:

Yeah, it's hard, like knowing about the game doesn't really help you that much.

Grant Wahl:

So I've always had this question for people in the U.S. when it comes to soccer. How do you approach trying to write about soccer or podcast about soccer to a U.S. audience? Because I can remember having these conversations in the late '90s, early 2000s at Sports Illustrated with editors saying like, "Can't we just try to cover soccer like we would any other sport? We don't need to dumb it down or anything like that." And eventually we got there, I think. How do you approach trying to do this? And do you do anything because it's a U.S. audience?

Brian Phillips:

For the most part, I don't do anything because it's a U.S. audience. I mean, I tend to assume that a U.S. audience will be a little more forgiving of me if I like make fun of England for no reason, which I do regularly, but I don't dumb it down for a U.S. audience.

I would say when making this podcast, I was very conscious of the fact that there's a large soccer fan population in the United States that loves the game and knows a ton about the game and could name the back line of West Ham alphabetically in reverse, but maybe doesn't have quite as much experience of the history of the game because a lot of us came in relatively late. So I just kind of took that as permission to tell a lot of stories that will be familiar to people who have a really thorough grounding in soccer history, but that might be new to a big part of the Ringer podcast audience and even among really pretty hardcore American soccer fans who are not reading random books about soccer in the '50s or whatever.

Grant Wahl:

I think that's a great point because I do have to remind myself from time to time, when you're in a country that's creating lots of new soccer fans all the time, they can be into the sport but they may not be fully aware of the U.S. going to the World Cup quarterfinals in 2002 or something like that. And those stories are worth telling. And I also do think, by the way, that American soccer fans pay attention to more leagues than maybe fans even in England or Spain or Italy or Germany because they have such established leagues that they follow in those countries that may not follow each other's league. That the U.S. maybe has a bit more of that going for it.

Brian Phillips:

Absolutely.

Grant Wahl:

So it's an interesting cultural phenomenon. Where do you think the sport of soccer is in the United States at this point?

Brian Phillips:

That's a really good question, actually. I don't know. I feel like young people I talk to are soccer fans more and more of the time. I think for a long time, and you remember this era probably better than anyone else, having been at SI when you were at SI, but for a long time there was this assumption that if you were an established older American sportswriter that soccer would be something you held in contempt. You would fire off the annual, "Why I hate soccer because it's a bunch of socialist weenies flopping around and not tackling each other" column. And that was the viral column of the late '90s, whenever.

I think that era is gone, and it's understood now that Americans can be soccer fans and that that's perfectly normal and okay, and I think when I talk to people in their twenties, I'm more likely to have a conversation with a passionate Arsenal supporter than a passionate Dallas Mavericks fan or whatever, like I think that people are engaged. I think there are still some big issues to be resolved about getting the games on TV reliably, like the fact that you have to subscribe to 36 different services and that Peacock is becoming Universal USA+ is becoming Paramount HBO, like it's just kind of an endless dance to try to find the games, although, as a tennis fan, I find soccer somewhat manageable in that regard.

And I think MLS is doing well. I mean, I don't look at the books of these leagues, like I have no idea who's making money, who's losing money, but I know I have friends going to LAFC games who just absolutely love it, and I just feel like I hear more and more of that, that people feel like they have local clubs, but they also have the ability to follow international leagues. And I think there's a great thing about being an American soccer fan that you touched on, which is that you can cherrypick a little bit more. You can decide, "I love my local club, LAFC or whatever, but I also love Bayer Leverkusen and I also love Ajax and I also love Chelsea." Like, whatever, and you can do that and it doesn't feel like cheating in the way it feels if you're a Yankees fan and a Mets fan or whatever.

Grant Wahl:

Will the U.S. men ever win a World Cup in our lifetimes?

Brian Phillips:

Okay, so we're about the same age, so let's see, we've got what? We've probably got optimistically 12 more World Cups to go? Yeah. I think, like 9 World Cups from now, it's going to be our moment. The players may not be born yet. No, we're going to win 2022. Are you kidding?

Grant Wahl:

I like the attitude. So another random question here. Now that Spotify has an official relationship with both The Ringer and FC Barcelona, they're on their shirts, can you, Brian Phillips, get special access to reporting on whatever the heck is happening inside Barça right now?

Brian Phillips:

You know, I have put my name forward to Daniel Ek, the CEO of Spotify, to become either the sporting director or perhaps the head coach of Barcelona, and those emails have gone unanswered, so I would say the question is undecided right now. There's some ambiguity, but nothing has come my way yet. Our podcast producers and I have been agitating for at least some gear, like at least throw us some shirts, like they must have extra Frenkie de Jong shirts to hand out, but no, nothing. Nothing. We're operating in an atmosphere of unwilling ethical probity right now.

Grant Wahl:

Oh, shoot. So what would it take to get you to cover soccer full-time? Because I would love to see that happen, and I realize you have all these other interests and I get it, but I miss your soccer writing and your podcast. I'm going to get my fill here now for a little while, but I'm a little concerned for after the World Cup.

Brian Phillips:

That is incredibly kind of you to say, and I have unbelievable respect for people who find a thing that they love and stick to it. But I'm just too much of a gadfly, I think, mentally, like I think if I do the same thing for too long, I just start to feel a little out of my head, and I find that my love for it starts to diminish, so I really like to jump from one thing to another, and I will never stop following soccer or stop covering soccer, like I will always come back to it, I hope, as long as people keep letting me as I'm doing with this show, but I don't know if I could do it full-time.

Just I'm kind of bad at the day-to-day business of it all, like I feel like I'm always three days behind on the news. I was just at a wedding last weekend and someone was like, "Well, who should we be looking out for at this World Cup? What team is going to be good?" And I said, "Italy." (Laughs) And then I was like five minutes into this conversation, and I was like, "Wait a second, Italy didn't qualify." You know, I've been doing a history podcast, I've been back in 1950 and I had to walk that back and say, "Actually, maybe Italy's not going to do well at this tournament." So maybe I should take breaks, is what I'm saying.

Grant Wahl:

They are the European champions.

Brian Phillips:

I know. That's why I said it. I was like, "Oh, yeah, they're on a roll, like that’s a young core…"

Grant Wahl:

Brian Phillips has a phenomenal new podcast series for The Ringer that just debuted called 22 Goals, in which each episode uses a great World Cup goal as a window into an era of soccer history. Brian, it is an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Congratulations on everything.

Brian Phillips:

Thank you so much, Grant, and it's an honor to be here. I'm so happy we were able to do it.

The Interview: Sacha Kljestan

Grant Wahl — Thu, 04 Aug 2022 23:24:02 GMT

Sacha Kljestan tells me he wants to play at least one more season (Photo by Dave Bernal/ISI Photos/Getty Images)

I love this interview with Sacha Kljestan. The LA Galaxy midfielder has had a lengthy and productive career, and he brings a special perspective on MLS as someone who played in the league in 2006 and still does in 2022. Whether he decides to become a coach or a TV analyst, he has a promising post-playing future in the sport as well. We get into a lot in this conversation, and I hope you enjoy it.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is right at the top of American soccer players who, when they speak, I listen. Sacha Kljestan of the LA Galaxy is in his 17th season as a professional. He's one of three players ever to have at least 20 assists in an MLS season. He also played 52 times for the U.S. men's national team. Sacha, it's great to talk to you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Sacha Kljestan:

Thanks for having me, Grant. It's nice to be here.

Grant Wahl:

Lots to talk about here, but I'm laughing at myself because I've covered you for years and years and I've never actually asked you the very correct way to pronounce your name, because I've been writing about you, I didn't need to worry about it. But this is audio. How do you pronounce your name?

Sacha Kljestan:

You said it really well. I say Sacha kles-tchen. Although my dad, a proud Serbian man, would say it's klee-es-tan. When I played in Europe, a lot of my teammates said my name the proper way. Especially when I've had Serbian teammates over the years, they're like, "You don't even say your own name the right way." I'm like, "Dude, I'm born and raised in the States, man. I've been here for 36 years, so it is what it is."

Grant Wahl:

It's a little bit like Christian Pulisic. He likes puh-liss-ick, and he's got teammates at Chelsea that do not say it that way.

Sacha Kljestan:

It's exactly the same. We talked about this when we were teammates on the national team.

“For TV, especially, I think we might have a little bit of a lack of some personalities on TV that can explain the game tactically and personnel-wise, like through a coach's eyes, of why decisions are made or why certain things are played in a certain way, why certain things are happening in a game. I think that's something I would be very good at.” — Sacha Kljestan

Grant Wahl:

You're 36. You're about to turn 37 in September, which is young for anybody who's a layperson out there in the world, but isn't so much for a professional soccer player. You're still playing, still getting some important minutes for the Galaxy. What continues to motivate you as a player?

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Sacha Kljestan:

Everything. I still feel pretty much the same as I felt about the sport and about the game that I did when I was 10 years old. Besides being a parent and being a husband, the joy that I get just from playing soccer every day only can compare to that. Every day that I get the chance to step out on the field and train, I'm 36 years old, about to be 37, but I still feel like I can improve something every day. And I feel like I'll be that way till the day I die. I mean, Manny Schellscheidt, my college coach, he's still a player. He’s [81] years old now.. A player is a player, and I've always felt like that. And I know he still plays, and I think I'll still be playing when I'm that old too.

Grant Wahl:

I want to ask you about Manny Schellscheidt, because I don't know how many of our listeners actually know much about him. There is a film, a documentary film, that I have seen about him, I don't know if it's been released yet, which is terrific. And Manny Schellscheidt has influenced a ton of people in the U.S. soccer community. You played for him at Seton Hall. Could you fill listeners in a little bit about him?

Sacha Kljestan:

Well, Manny is probably the godfather of American soccer, or American soccer coaches maybe, in a way. So Manny came from Germany, played in the old NASL, coached in the old NASL, won a few Open Cups over the years with some New Jersey teams back in the '70s, I believe. Then he coached Seton Hall, I think, from 1988 until [2011], so a really long time. He was the one who brought me out to New Jersey and was my college coach and really the guy that I credit with finding me and nurturing my talent and then just giving me the opportunity to play and to showcase myself. That's led me to a long soccer career. Manny's the first coach to ever get the U.S. Soccer A coaching license ever. Then he was close with Bob Bradley, who gave me that connection.

Bob let me train with the MetroStars my last year of college and got to know me a little bit that way. I remember the best story was when I was in college, sorry if I'm rambling. I went into Manny's office one day to have a talk with him after the game. He's on the phone and he's like, "Hold on a second." They're talking about the national team on the phone, the full team, who had a qualifier the day before. He gets off the phone and he's like, "Sorry, that was just Bruce Arena. We were talking about the game." Bruce was the head coach of the national team at that time. They were chit-chatting about the qualifier from the day before. I was like, "Who is this guy? What have I gotten myself into?" I've learned so much from him. We still keep in touch. He's been a special person in my life for many years now.

Grant Wahl:

I hope our listeners get a chance to see this documentary. I will find out if it's out and how to go about seeing it, because it's terrific. I want to jump around a little bit in this conversation, because there's a lot I want to talk to you about, but I'm going to get into this right now here. Recently after a Galaxy game, you began your post-game press conference by saying you weren't going to talk about the game and you were going to talk about the mass shooting that day in Highland Park, Illinois. And what you said really resonated. What goes into that decision that you're going to say that publicly?

Sacha Kljestan:

You know, it just happened to be a long day. My wife and kids were out of town for the holidays. They went on vacation to visit my father-in-law. And so I was home all alone all day. It was the 4th of July, which is supposed to be a day of celebration for our country, and it turns into another day of sadness, which seems like it just happens every few days now. So I was just on my phone, and I was on Twitter. I was just reading about the stuff, and it was just making me so angry. Then I have to shut that off for the game and just play the game, and fortunately we had a good game that night. I came off the bench, I had a nice assist. I should have felt on top of the world.

And I got back in the locker room. I was texting to say goodnight to my family and saw on Twitter, again, just more information, what was coming out about the day. I was just like, "Man." It just put me in such a bad mood. I just feel like that is happening way too often. So I was just like, "I'm so sick of" ... I don't know. I had a platform to speak that night and I didn't want to speak about the game. I wanted to speak about what was really on my mind all day that day, which should have been our Independence Day. And it’s just a place where I could have seen my family at. There was a parade right next to my house I didn't go to that day because my kids were out of town, but it could happen to any of us. It happens way too often and I was just so frustrated.

Grant Wahl:

I'm with you on that, as are a lot of other people. As your career went on and as you got older, have you become more comfortable speaking about things like that, making that decision to speak the way you did that day?

Sacha Kljestan:

Yeah, I think anytime you take a stance on something that is considered controversial, which it's absurd to me that it would be controversial to want some better gun laws in our country, you're going to face some backlash. At this point, I just don't care what people say to me anymore, because I'm old enough and I've done this enough and I've had to speak to the media enough that I basically got to a point where I want my kids to see what I've done and see what I stood up for, and know that it's okay to stand up for what you believe in.

So I'm always thinking about them and wanting to be a good role model to them. Then sometimes you have a platform, and you should use it to make a difference, if you want to. I'm not saying everyone has to, but I just wanted to speak on what I believed in and what I thought was the right thing to do, and what I want my kids to look up to and be like when they grow up.

Grant Wahl:

In terms of the Galaxy, how much at this point are you a player/coach with the Galaxy, or do you view your role as basically player only?

Sacha Kljestan:

I view myself as basically a player. I think I do spend a lot of time talking to guys and mentoring and giving a lot of time, I think, in trying to help the younger guys and just trying to help everybody. So I don't consider myself a coach. I'm definitely not part of the coaching staff, although I have a lot of conversations with those guys, but I still consider myself strictly a player.

Grant Wahl:

Partly I asked that is because recently I was asked by a reader who are the current players who I think will go on to become coaches? And you were someone I included in my answer, but I've never actually asked you if that's something you want to do, coaching. Do you want to go into coaching eventually?

Sacha Kljestan:

It seems like the natural progression of things. I've thought a lot about the game in different ways. And I constantly feel like I'm a coach sometimes when I'm in training. I'm always thinking of ways, different things in training that we could do that could help in the game and things like that, which is what coaches do. Last year I took my B license with U.S. Soccer, and that was good. I enjoyed that process. That was the first step in the process. I helped out some academy teams with the Galaxy to get my license. It's kind of "to be determined," I guess, right now.

I'm grappling with it as I get towards the end of my career about continuing on, because it's a similar lifestyle as a player, where when you have kids and then they have to start moving around. They're settled right now. They go to a good school. So I guess the answer is, "we'll see," because I do like it. I do think that I would be very fulfilled as a coach, but I've also done some stuff in media recently. I did some stuff with Fox a couple months ago. I've done some stuff with MLS in the past, so it's kind of a, "we'll see," right now.

Grant Wahl:

That was going to be my other question, is when you're making a decision about what you might want to pursue, and I guess you don't have to choose just one or the other, but to some extent you do. I mean, on the media side I think you're a pretty insightful guy. I think you could bring that to a television broadcast or something like that. From your perspective, how do you view that decision?

Sacha Kljestan:

For TV, especially, I think we might have a little bit of a lack of some personalities on TV that can explain the game tactically and personnel-wise, like through a coach's eyes, of why decisions are made or why certain things are played in a certain way, why certain things are happening in a game. I think that's something I would be very good at. I watch all the games. And when I'm watching the games, mostly MLS, I would say I watch a lot of MLS games, but of course I study the national team. I watch Champions League. I keep in touch with Belgium. I watch the Premier League on TV.

Anyway, so when I watch the game, I'm always analyzing the game and asking questions like, "Why? Why are they doing that right now? Why tactically did they set things up?" Sometimes it's easy to figure out. Sometimes it's more difficult to figure out, but I think I'd be able to explain in detail to maybe a not so savvy soccer fan why things are happening the way they are. I think we lack that here in the States. Hopefully, I think, we see more of that in the future.

Grant Wahl:

It's a great point. This came up a little bit when John Madden passed away a few months ago, that I felt like, feel like still, like what you're saying here, we haven't had a coach or a former coach in American soccer television on a national level. I know Thomas Rongen's done some stuff at times, sometimes local, sometimes national. We've even seen Bruce Arena moonlight occasionally, but we're missing that. I realize that part of John Madden was, he was like, BOOM, stuff like that. Not just breaking it down, but he also broke things down and connected with fans. I do think there's a niche for that. If you want to do that, man, that would be awesome.

Sacha Kljestan:

We'll see. Tony Romo is another guy, I think, in the NFL now who wasn't a coach, but was a quarterback for a long time, and the way he explains the game to us common fans, I think, is really cool.

Grant Wahl:

I'm with you on that. I guess I would view you as part of a tree that includes Manny Schellscheidt, who we talked about, Bob Bradley, Jesse Marsch, Jim Curtin, maybe even Michael Bradley. There's probably some others too, I should mention, but is that fair? And how have those people influenced the way you see the game?

Sacha Kljestan:

Yeah, 100%. That's my tree. Those are my group of guys. I would include Ante Razov now, who's been an assistant coach at LAFC for some years, all guys that, those younger guys that you mentioned, that I got to play with and be in a locker room as teammates. Then Bob, I think, is kind of the guy that led all of those guys, and having the chance to play for different types of coaches over my career, more motivational guys, more tactical guys. But those guys, especially, Jesse is probably the one that I'm closest with. Jim Curtin I've kept in touch with over the years, but Jesse and I, we were midfield partners for four years. Then we got back in touch. I played under him in New York and had a very successful time with him.

So he's a guy I've kept in touch with too, and somebody I really look up to in the coaching world because he was the coach that I've had throughout my career who had the best relationship with player one to player 30. He made sure that guys every week knew where they stood within the group, knew whether they were going to be starting on the weekend or not, and what their role was going to be. I think I've learned over the years that's one of the most important things as a coach, is making sure that everyone knows where they stand and that you're honest with them. And he was the best at that.

Grant Wahl:

It's really interesting, I'm going to go visit Jesse next week at Leeds, get a sense of what's happening over there for a written story. You might know I go back a ways with Jesse, went to college together. He's told me some fun stories over the years about how when he was on with his family this around-the-world trip and they were staying at mostly hostels around the world, but they did stay with your family in Belgium. I'm wondering what you remember from that trip and him visiting. He had just left Montreal, so he was his pre-Red Bulls. Would you have thought then that he would be doing what he's doing now in the Premier League?

Sacha Kljestan:

No, definitely not. I’ve got to be honest, because it wasn't that successful in Montreal. Obviously, he had some differences with ownership and left after one season. It was not like he had this crazy start to his coaching career that everyone's going, "That's the next American coach," but Jesse's obviously a very smart guy and a very driven person. So it's no surprise to see where he's gotten and how he's gotten there so fast because he is so driven, but I don't think if you would've told me that back then I would've signed off on that one, but we're all Leeds fans here in the States now, which is awesome.

Grant Wahl:

Now, Jesse did say that he felt like he was worried that his family was spending too much time at your place and overstaying the welcome.

Sacha Kljestan:

No, it ended up being an awesome trip. I mean, they were only supposed to stay one night. I don't know if he's told you the whole story, but he borrowed a car from a friend in Switzerland and they drove to Belgium. He came to watch one training, I think, of mine. Then they were going to leave the next day and go somewhere else. Then the car broke down in my driveway. It took a week to get the car fixed, but I think the kids were so happy because they had been all three to a bed, like sleeping on the ground sometimes. So it was like a five-star resort staying at my place. It was actually really special for my wife and I too, because we didn't have kids yet. I think we just learned a lot about parenting that week and seeing, because they were very free. The one thing that always stuck out with us was, I think their son was four or five at the time, and we were out at a restaurant.

It was a restaurant where you order at the front and then you go sit down. Their son, who was four or five, wanted another bottle of water. They were like, "All right. Here's two Euro, go to the front and order it." We were just like, "Whoa, they're making their kid that young do that?" They were teaching them some independence on this trip. We had a pool at my place, so the kids were swimming in the pool and sleeping in a nice bed and playing with my dog. Our families bonded a lot over that trip, and it was awesome. Then it just so happened that he was there for the last week of the season, and he got to come to the final two games of the year that we needed to win both to win the title, and we did. And he came out to the club with us that night and partied with my team when we celebrated the title. So it was super fun.

Grant Wahl:

That sounds awesome, actually.

Sacha Kljestan:

It was a good time. We had a really good time. And my wife took his wife, Kim, who I'm sure you know, to a Beyoncé concert that week also in Antwerp. They had the best time ever. It was such a fun trip.

Grant Wahl:

That's really cool. It's funny, I will tell anyone who listens that Chivas USA actually produced a lot more memorable things in its 10-year history than most people acknowledge, and that Chivas USA deserves to be viewed as much more than a failed idea. Are you with me?

Sacha Kljestan:

I'm with you. I mean, with the years that we were there, we were pretty good, man. We made the playoffs every season from '06 to 2009. We were one point off the Supporters Shield in 2007. We had some pretty heartbreak playoff losses that could have ended up in MLS Cup runs, but a great group of players, a great group of guys, a lot of all stars, a lot of Best 11 players that played in that time too. I think we had some great memories and I learned a lot. That was such a special time of my career to learn from all these older guys, like Jesse Marsch and Jim Curtin, Ante Razov, Paco Palencia, Ramón Ramírez, Claudio Suárez. For a young player, that was amazing.

Grant Wahl:

It's really cool memories when you actually look back at who was involved with some of those teams. You started playing in MLS in 2006, you're now playing in MLS in 2022. What stands out to you the most about how the league is different today compared to 2006, and what still needs to improve in your mind?

Sacha Kljestan:

The biggest difference is when I joined the league there were 12 teams, and now we're at 28. There was one soccer specific stadium, or two, basically, Galaxy, Chivas and Columbus Crew, if we could even call that one a soccer specific stadium. By that time, it was already getting old. Now you see all these places with these supporter groups and the games that are on TV, just so much more accessible. Everything is so much more professional. We were happy if we got served lunch after training our first couple of years in Chivas. Now it's breakfast and lunch is fully catered. We all have our chefs. We're all spoiled now, you know. Where we need to go from here? I'd love to just continue to see the product keep getting better and some more money spent on players.

I think this TAM era has been really good for the league and bringing in these players with up to this $1.5 million salary level that has really created some very special players in our league. The owners that do want to spend are spending. A lot of them are spending, I think, wiser and better lately. There's obviously still the case where you buy and it's a bust, but that happens all over the world. The scouting probably still needs to continue to get better, and maybe the research on these players that are coming in that you're spending big money on, but I like where we're at this point, whatever we are now, 27 years into our existence, I think something like that. We're on the right direction, but we can still get better.

Grant Wahl:

I want to get your thoughts on two teams. The first team is the LA Galaxy. Big picture, how are you viewing things?

Sacha Kljestan:

Big picture? I think Greg Vanney has good ideas. We just have not had production outside of our strikers. That is our problem, I think, right now, is that we have Dejan Joveljic, who is a killer in the box, and Chicharito, who is a killer in the box, but those are the only two guys that are getting us goals. That has been our problem. All of us in the attack need to pick things up a little bit. Other than that, I feel like we're on the right track. I'm very optimistic about our team because we have a lot of good players, we have good young players, we have a nice balance. And we have a very good locker room, which was not, from what I heard, like in the past at the LA Galaxy.

So things are on the up and up. I mean, we have to make the playoffs because we're the LA Galaxy, and it's just not acceptable. The results that have been with this club for the last five years, this is not the standard that the LA Galaxy set for the first 20 years of MLS. This is far below where we should be. So I understand the frustration of the fans. I hear from the fans, I talk to the fans, I get it. I just hope that they know that I'm doing, and we are doing, our best to try to get things right at the LA Galaxy.

Grant Wahl:

The other team I wanted to get your thoughts on is the U.S. men's national team.

Sacha Kljestan:

I love the U.S. men's national team right now. I mean, I've always been a huge fan of the national team, but I actually think that this World Cup, and the next World Cup, they can surprise, not us, because I think all of us know how good they are, but people from the outside who still maybe underestimate these kids. I shouldn't say kids. They're not kids, they're men, but they're a lot younger than me [laughs]. For me right now, the real strength of the team is the midfield. I really think with Tyler Adams, Weston McKennie, and then probably my favorite player right now is Yunus Musah, the way that I think they'll be able to handle the heat and the physicality of what the World Cup is like, they are going to dominate, and I think dominate the midfield.

I'm not saying they're going to dominate the world, but those guys are going to be like the engine and the guys that just grind through the games, that just give chances to our attackers, and keep the pressure off our defenders to be able to win some games. Then Christian Pulisic, always been amazing, was such a fantastic player to play with. I know he can make the difference. I hope Gio Reyna can stay healthy and make the difference. Weah, Aaronson, also one of my favorite players. I hope he can be able to make the difference. Whether he starts or ends up coming off the bench, I know he'll be a difference maker. So I'm very, very excited about our national team.

Grant Wahl:

When you say Yunus Musah is your favorite player, why?

Sacha Kljestan:

He just has this ability to receive the ball under pressure in the midfield and dribble with power and pace and open things up. Like, I don't have that. I wish I had that. He's got this ability to just get the ball with a guy on him anywhere on the field, beat that guy. Then when one guy gets beat and you start dribbling with pace at the back line, or at the midfield, dominoes start to fall because a guy has to step out to you and then you’ve got to find the next pass. He's shown that ability to be comfortable getting the ball anywhere in the midfield, and then using that power and that pace and that technique and control to really open up the game.

When guys start getting tired and, like I said, it's going to be hot in Qatar, and his ability to just beat guys off the dribble in the midfield is going to open up space for the attackers. He's so fun to watch. I think, as he gets a little bit older, he's going to start adding goals and assists, which are going to be really important, because a midfielder who can have goals and assists becomes a $50 million player overnight. And I see him being a $50 million player.

Grant Wahl:

Bob Bradley's name has obviously come up already here, but when I think of Bob, and I go back a long way with Bob, I think of how he likes to challenge everyone. Seriously, everyone: players, coaches, media. And I've gotten used to it and I appreciate it. I get the sense you might like to challenge people too a little bit. Is there a little bit of that in you?

Sacha Kljestan:

Yeah, which I think I got from Bob because, to be fair, when I was younger and he challenged me, I don't know if I was ready for it, but then it made me ready for it. Like I had to. He told me straight to my face one time he didn't know if he could tell that I cared about soccer and really wanted to make this my life.

Grant Wahl:

Wow.

Sacha Kljestan:

I was like, "Are you kidding me?" Yes, I know I like to have fun. I'm like the funny guy and I like to joke around. I like to go out with my friends and I like to have a good time, but when I show up on the training field, this is all I care about. Maybe I needed that at that time, because then it kind of shook me and I had to get back in. I remember then, a couple months later, I scored for the national team. He ended up bringing me to that pre-World Cup camp in Princeton. Unfortunately, I didn't make the team, but I left it all out there. Then I went to Anderlecht and I was back in. Ever since I made that move and established myself at Anderlecht, he brought me back into the national team.

I played every other game under him until he got fired. So I love Bob. I'm glad he challenged me and didn't let me have the easy way out. I guess I took that from him that, yes, I think I have that. I think that's important, to get out of your comfort zone. I don't think I fully, fully knew that until I got to Anderlecht and was far away from my family again and out on my own. I needed that, and I needed that challenge. Sometimes you need to get out of your comfort zone. I love that about him, and I think I find myself being like him a little bit.

Grant Wahl:

I still get text messages every once in a while from Bob about something I've written, or something that he thought could have been better. I get positive stuff, too occasionally, but I'm used to it by now.

Sacha Kljestan:

I think it tests your character, that's for sure. But, I mean, he's got his ways and he's obviously been very successful and has been a very good coach.

Grant Wahl:

I'm trying to think of anything else here. This has been just a really nice, fun conversation. How long do you want to keep playing?

Sacha Kljestan:

I don't know. I guess, at this point, I just take it year by year. Although, having said that, I do plan on playing next season. So I guess you guys are stuck with me a little bit longer, and we'll see. It's all physically at this point, because mentally, I mean, honestly, I think I'm 25 years old, but physically I'm starting to feel the age a little bit, but I still feel really good. I'm able to train every day. I don't like taking days off. I like trying to compete with the young kids in the fitness tests still, and all that stuff. We'll see, but I feel really good.

Grant Wahl:

What are the keys, in your mind, to at least continuing to feel young?

Sacha Kljestan:

Oh, I hang out with a lot of guys that are like 18 years old. I mean, the funny thing that we always have bonded over is I pretty much strictly listen to hip hop music, which is what plays in the locker room. So I'm like, "I know all this stuff. I'm not like this lame old guy with no style." I'm like, "Guys, I'm cool too, you know," [laughs] but other than that, I just love being out on the field. It's like we still play a game for a living. It's just a sport. I don't know. I love bonding with my kids over that, because they're both very into soccer right now. They both play on little club teams in our local area. My son is obsessed. He comes to all the games, he knows all the players on my team. It's been really fun bonding with them over that over the last couple of years. I kind of just don't want to give it up yet. I want them to still see that I was a player, because I know my glory days are past me, but they still enjoy watching me play.

Grant Wahl:

Just to wrap up, I guess I'm curious, because I know you consume soccer broadcasts, I know you read coverage. What would you suggest to the media, especially ... I guess we've talked about it from a television perspective on what you'd like to see, but from a writing perspective, what types of stories would you like to see more of that you maybe don't see about soccer in America?

Sacha Kljestan:

I do think that writing stories, yourself included, about tactical things that happened during the game are important. And I think that part has been pretty good in the last few years. I think there are a few guys now that write about the game in the States that know what they're watching and have a good way of explaining it. So I guess I'd just love to read and see more of that. I'm a big fan of yours, so keep doing what you're doing. I appreciate you and what you do for American soccer.

Grant Wahl:

Thanks! Sacha Kljestan is in his 17th season as a professional. Looking forward to season 18 now that I know that you're aiming for that. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Sacha.

Sacha Kljestan:

Thanks for having me. That was fun.

The Interview: Todd Dunivant

Grant Wahl — Mon, 25 Jul 2022 16:47:21 GMT

Courtesy Sacramento Republic

Todd Dunivant won five MLS Cup titles and nearly claimed a sixth if the LA Galaxy hadn’t lost to Real Salt Lake in 2009 on penalties. For the past four years he has been an executive with Sacramento Republic, the USL team that’s two games away from making history in the U.S. Open Cup.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is Todd Dunivant, the president and general manager of Sacramento Republic, which meets Sporting Kansas City in the U.S. Open Cup semifinals this Wednesday at 10:30 pm Eastern. Todd, congrats on everything you're doing, and thanks for coming on the show.

Todd Dunivant:

Thank you, Grant. Good to be here.

Todd Dunivant on the team salary difference between Sacramento and the LA Galaxy team it beat in the Open Cup: “It's safe to say there’s probably a 20x multiple involved there. And that is what it is. The fun part is for our guys, they get to go out and try to show why they belong and prove themselves. That’s why we play the game.”

Grant Wahl:

So I'm going to start with something maybe a little different. We'll get into the Open Cup semis here in a second, but you won five MLS Cup titles in your playing career. And I know that José Mourinho used to call Arsene Wenger a "specialist in failure," which I always thought was not true and kind of uncool, but I think it's kind of fair to call you a specialist in winning. And I'm wondering what sort of characteristics you've seen in winning operations that maybe don't exist everywhere in the soccer world?

Todd Dunivant:

Wow, great, deep question to start off. And I appreciate that ... That should be the new tagline for me. No, honestly, the key to success for me has always been the collective and the team. And that's ultimately what I love about sports. That's what I found out and figured out why I love soccer, is surrounding yourself with great people. And I was a part of some really great teams. I had great teammates, great coaches, and that's always been my key to success.

I was a left back. Often didn't get noticed. But did my job well and allowed others to do their jobs. And it sounds simple, but having that plus a competitive drive, a little resiliency, some perseverance, all those things end up helping. But being part of different championship teams, there's different makeups to each of those teams and each of those runs, every single one is a little bit different. But I think ultimately when it comes down to it, having that focus in the critical moments and being able to step up to the plate when a lot's on the line, I think that's always the differentiator.

Grant Wahl:

And what sort of different perspectives do you have on all of that now that you've been an executive for several years, as opposed to the player's perspective?

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Todd Dunivant:

Being on this side has kind of given me a little bit deeper perspective because you have more time to think and analyze, and you're trying to relay that to the team, to the coaches, to learn from each other on past experiences, successes, failures. I think that's a huge part of winning, is actually losing and understanding why you lost, what happened, analyzing.

I'll never forget ...So you mentioned the five wins. We also lost one in 2009 against Real Salt Lake. And I can tell you right now when we lost it. It was probably a week before the final. We were at training, funnily enough, in the shower. But guys were talking about, "We shouldn't get championship rings if we win. We should get watches. You don't use rings, but watches would be more ..." And so already the mindset was taking us beyond the game, and our focus wasn't there. We tried to correct it in real time, but that was the moment where we probably lost the final and weren't prepared for the grind and the battle that was ahead of us.

Grant Wahl:

New light shed on a 13-year-old final, which I covered. I did not know that. That’s interesting. A non-MLS team has not won the U.S. Open Cup since Rochester in 1999, and Sacramento has a chance to do it. Where does this semifinal on Wednesday at home in front of your fans, where does that rank in terms of important games in the history of your club?

Todd Dunivant:

It’s going to be right at the top. I mean, you never want to compare eras, and this club absolutely exploded in 2014. I was part of the Galaxy then when Rodrigo López and the team had that kind of ... They call it the Miracle at Bonney. And it was just an incredible moment that 20,000 fans got to see, and Sacramento kind of exploded onto the scene. Since then the focus has largely been on MLS. And moving forward as a club, I think we've used this last year and some of the recent events to kind of refocus and say, hey, how do we move the club forward? And one of the things was we need to win. We need to have a winning team, a successful team. We started off well in the league but also gave ourselves a chance in Open Cup to make a run. And things have gone well for us. Our guys have been massive in the tournament, a huge win, kind of different wins along the way.

I think we've played five games already in the tournament, which adds a lot of congestion. But our guys have been great about it and I think our staff has been really smart about how they've managed the group. And so with this game coming up, we are going to have a sold-out crowd. It's sold out in a matter of minutes, frankly. It was crazy. We've never seen anything like that. It's going to be shoulder to shoulder at Heart Health Park. There'll be more people in there than ever before. And I think the atmosphere, the excitement, all of those things are going to be truly special and it's going to be a night to remember. So we're looking forward to it.

Grant Wahl:

It's interesting because I was playing a game recently with some friends where we were trying to figure out the most populous U.S. city we have not been to. And literally mine was Sacramento, California. So one, I want to rectify that. I'm sorry I won't be rectifying it next week. I'm going to be in England on a story. But if you make the final, do we know where the final will be?

Todd Dunivant:

Yeah. The final will be in either Orlando or [at the New York Red Bulls]. We would not be able to host the final. I know that.

Grant Wahl:

Okay. So I would have to rectify it some other way then, but it will be rectified.

Todd Dunivant:

We make that happen. Grant. We can make that happen any time. 100%.

Grant Wahl:

I would look forward to it, because the culture of soccer in Sacramento is something I've been paying attention to for a while. How would you describe the culture around soccer in Sacramento?

Todd Dunivant:

You know, it's different here. It really is. I think when I first came, it hit me pretty quickly when I was taking an Uber from the airport to my hotel, the Uber driver knew about the team. He wasn't a sports fan. He certainly didn't know anything about soccer, but he knew about the Republic. He knew we were planning to build a stadium downtown. And that is what you hear and see all around town. You see the gear. The team truly matters. So the support, even the media attention, frankly. We're on NBC, ABC, CBS. Fox is our partner. When we make big announcements, when things happen, everyone across the board covers us.

You don't get that in most major markets and certainly most Major League Soccer markets. So it is special here. It's different. We have the NBA Kings, certainly, but beyond that, and the River Cats, our AAA baseball team, the Republic has really found a great place in the hearts of sports fans here. And it's a great time. People love coming out to the games, and our support has only gotten bigger over the years.

Grant Wahl:

You've eliminated some prominent teams during your Open Cup run: LA Galaxy, San Jose Earthquakes, Phoenix Rising. In what ways have you as a team prioritized this tournament? How has this run come together for you?

Todd Dunivant:

Yeah, we always prioritize Open Cup. And in fact, we try to put some byes in our league schedule strategically during this period. So during May, during June, so that we give ourselves a little bit of a chance, because we don't have a 30-man roster. We have a 20-to-22-man roster, so to be able to do both competitions becomes challenging. So we have put some strategic byes in there.

The tournament itself is such a great tournament. I think anyone you would ask would say they would like to win it, but they also have to make trade-offs. And we have to make trade-offs. We played lower division teams. We played division one teams. And you have to make trade-offs. You have to try to advance and do that in the most efficient way possible with your roster. And I think every team has to go through that.

For us, we've been all in on the tournament. And like you said, we've had some very good opponents. And the fun part is you get to see some disparity between levels, and that David versus Goliath is a great story. It's something everyone can relate to. And I think it's what's been fun for us to kind of capture some attention in that we're punching above our weight. It's something Sacramento's always loved to do, and not being the first city that comes to mind when you talk about California, but we’ve got a pretty good thing going here and I think it's something that our fans and the people of Sacramento take a lot of pride in.

Grant Wahl:

I feel like the Open Cup is slowly making gains as a tournament and how it's viewed around the country. And part of that has to do with the games being available on ESPN+. And you can see the games, you can watch a night of games. My friends Herc Gómez and Sebi Salazar even did a whiparound show one night on ESPN+ with what they do. And I think that's all great. Do you have any ideas for even more that could be done to make the U.S. Open Cup an even bigger tournament in the U.S.?

Todd Dunivant:

Yeah, I think the interest comes when there's cupsets, as they call them, when you have lower division teams beating higher division teams. It's just fun to see. It's fun to watch. That shouldn't happen. Right? But it does. And it's something that I think captures the imagination. So the more in the Open Cup you can highlight those stories, highlight those opportunities, and I've heard some different ideas that I think potentially make a lot of sense of letting lower division teams host the games against higher division teams automatically if they so choose. I think that makes a ton of sense, because you're going to get bigger crowds. You're going to get more excitement and potentially more cupsets, which is what people enjoy seeing, you know?

And so I think that's one that makes a lot of sense. I know there's logistics and other issues with that, but I think without a doubt it is something that makes sense. You know, when I was with the LA Galaxy, we lost two or three years in a row to North Carolina. We traveled there three years in a row, just a quirk in the schedule. And for some reason, that was always our first opponent and we didn't have the right mentality going into those games and ultimately lost every single time. But that's interesting, and it helped North Carolina in terms of their interest and the fans. And I think that's one that could make a lot of sense.

Grant Wahl:

Do you mind me asking sort of like, when you take on Kansas City or the LA Galaxy, how much more is their team salary? Like, how many times more is their team salary compared to yours?

Todd Dunivant:

Yeah, our salaries aren't published. Obviously, MLS's are. But I think it's safe to say there's probably a 20x multiple involved there. And that is what it is. The fun part is for our guys, they get to go out and try to show why they belong and prove themselves. That's why we play the game. And that's why we’re all competitors and everyone wants to win. So it's the same when we played Central Valley Fuego, who's a League One team, or Portland Timbers U23s. I mean, this is the disparity. There was a disparity there too, and those guys wanted to come out and take us down. So that's fun. I think that's the fun stuff. When I was a college player, I loved scrimmaging against MLS teams, getting those friendlies in, because it's a chance to test yourself, to prove your mettle.

Grant Wahl:

You alluded to it earlier. Sacramento's obviously had a long history pursuing becoming an MLS expansion team. There was even an announcement that it was happening. Then Ron Burkle pulled out of the ownership group. Where are we right now on MLS possibilities with Sacramento? Is it still being pursued or is it not being pursued at this point?

Todd Dunivant:

Yeah, we've said all along we're going to continue to pursue it. The lead investor has always been kind of the last piece for Sacramento, we've sort of checked the box and then some in terms of our market and proving that we'd be a great MLS market. We've also got a downtown stadium plan with city alignment that you just don't often see. It's an incredible piece of property downtown that we're ready to build on.

And so we're going to keep pushing on that, and we're not going to stop. I think that's one thing that Sacramento doesn't do. If you want to boil down our identity into one word, it's indomitable. And that's in the city motto, and essentially it's perseverance. It's the idea that you're not going to be defeated. You're not going to be subdued.

So that for us is what we're about and we're going to keep going, but we're also not going to wait around. And I think that's what we've tried to do in the last 12 months is take destiny into our own hands a little bit and build a new stadium with or without MLS. And I think that's what we want to do. We want to move the club forward. Our fans deserve it. Our team deserves it. This community deserves it. And we think that's a path forward for the club in either scenario.

Grant Wahl:

What is your sense of the USL, the league you're in right now, and its future and what they're doing?

Todd Dunivant:

USL continues to grow. I've mentioned 2014. How far the league has come in just these last eight, nine years is remarkable. And you're seeing a lot of teams building their own soccer-specific stadiums, controlling their venues, growing revenues, having player sales, transfers on the worldwide market. I think there's an appetite for it. And there's also very much a place for USL in the soccer landscape in this country.

People don't give enough credit. Soccer is young in America. It just is. Having MLS being around for, I don't know, 26, 27 years now, USL is still forming. There's a lot of teams that are popping up in places you would've never thought there would be soccer teams. And then having them do well. I mean, who would've thought Cincinnati? Who would've thought Sacramento? Who would've thought Orlando? And all these places popping up, it is cool to see, but it's also new and it's young. And that, for me, is fun. And USL is a major reason why a lot of these markets are coming online, and I'm sure there'll be more to come.

Grant Wahl:

One thing I did want to ask you about, you've been with Sacramento for four years now, but before that you had 2017 with a team called the San Francisco Deltas, which won an NASL title in their first season and then folded. There's some really interesting stories out there that people have written about that one season. How would you describe that whole experience?

Todd Dunivant:

How much time do we have on the podcast? I could go on for days on that. I mean, it was an incredible two years. We had kind of one year in 2016. I retired at the end of 2015. I think I was the fifth employee at the club and had the small task of putting together the soccer operation, creating a merchandise line from scratch, and then also being in charge of sponsorships. So I was really happy that my marriage stayed together and I kept some friendships along the way. But no, it was just an incredible experience. We had a year to kind of build the club up. We joined NASL in 2017, ended up being our first and only season. We found out midway through that year that we weren't going to be coming back.

And yet the team, the players, Marc dos Santos as head coach, the best hire we made, turned it into a positive and into a motivating factor, and kind of propelled their way through the rest of the second half of that season and ended up winning the last NASL championship. It was incredible. And those players, we still keep in touch. It was a very tight knit group. So many great stories came out of it, and a lot of people still in the soccer landscape that were involved in that.

Grant Wahl:

I'm curious to know, you've had this very interesting experience. You've won so much as a player in MLS. You've been an executive with different teams in different leagues. It's still possible, obviously, that Sacramento could join MLS at some point. What do you want to do in your career? Do you have a specific desire to be an executive with an MLS team at some point? What do you want?

Todd Dunivant:

Yeah, that's a good question. I think I try to be as present as possible. Of course, you're always, as a competitor, being in this business, you want to push yourself and be at the highest level possible. I've always taken things one step at a time. I was never ready as a 16-year-old to sign a professional contract. I needed to kind of go to college, have four years there, get drafted. It was always step by step. And that's how I’ve lived. I've never taken shortcuts and always try to earn everything I get.

And I absolutely love it here in Sacramento. We have a great owner in Kevin Nagle who, without him, this club doesn't exist. And he supports everything we do. And I'm so thankful for him for this opportunity to be able to first be a GM with a club for three years, and then be able to add the president title to that and be able to do a lot on that side. So it's truly an honor to be here. And again, I think we have unfinished business in Sacramento. We've got this Open Cup run. We've got league ambitions. There's still a lot to do here, and from there only good things happen.

Grant Wahl:

Todd Dunivant is the president and general manager of Sacramento Republic, which meets Sporting Kansas City in the U.S. Open Cup semifinals this Wednesday at 10:30 pm Eastern. Todd, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Todd Dunivant:

Thank you, Grant. Great to be here.

Available for iOS and Android

The Interview: Brian Dunseth

Grant Wahl — Thu, 21 Jul 2022 20:26:21 GMT

I love every one of the twice-weekly interviews I do in the soccer world. But some interviews take things to a level we don’t always get to, and that’s what happened this week with Brian Dunseth. I hope you take the time to read this one. It’s powerful.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is Brian Dunseth. He hosts Counter Attack weekday afternoons on SiriusXM FC, SiriusXM's 24/7 soccer channel. He's also a TV analyst for Real Salt Lake, where he lives, and ESPN. Dunny, it's great to talk to you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Brian Dunseth:

Yeah, it's been a while. Thanks for inviting me. And it's great to catch up again, man.

Grant Wahl:

Lots to talk about here, because you're on so many different things. And I guess that's my first question. How do you keep up with everything that you have to keep up with in the soccer world to talk about it on all your different shows?

“I've been having this conversation with a lot of guys of, ‘Hey, have you been seen? Have you really gone and talked to somebody and seen a brain specialist? You know, BU and the CTE studies are doing an incredible job, have you?’ And a lot of guys are like, ‘No, I haven't. I haven't.’ And then you get into, ‘How are you numbing yourself? How are you dealing with all of this?’” — Brian Dunseth

Brian Dunseth:

Thankfully we've been blessed with technology, right? I remember talking back in the day with JP Dellacamera about how he would prepare for calling matches. And he said he would get faxes from team administrators and PR people. And that would be how he got a hold of rosters or how he got a hold of bios.

It truly is incredible having been on the broadcast side since I retired back in 2006 to see kind of the evolution of what broadcast looks like and the consumption of television and with social media how that's taken a big chunk and a big bite out of, I would say, not only the broadcaster's personality and personal personality, but how we're finding out news and information. And now that athletes can share their own stories. Or Cristiano Ronaldo can say, "Going back to Sporting Lisbon, fake!"

But I'll tell you what, it's harder to manage my children's schedules with dropping off to school, picking up from school, going to soccer, picking up from soccer, trying to figure out what dinner looks like with my wife. But I am extremely fortunate to be in this space, as you know, to carve out a life within the game post-playing career is something pretty rare outside of going into the coaching realm, which was something that I was never interested in. So, here we are, what, 16, 17 years later, still trying to figure out what this space looks like, as it's ever-evolving.

Grant Wahl:

Well, I enjoy your work and all the different platforms that you do it on. What's a typical week like for you in your different jobs? How do you hop from one thing to the other?

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Brian Dunseth:

Depending on the European season, when European football/soccer kicks off, usually I'm up as early as 5 a.m. depending on the game. Because we're five days a week on SiriusXM and Channel 157 for Counter Attack, Tony Meola and I are messaging back and forth. He's the Serie A homer, so I lean on him because he’s AC Milan. And they've won the Serie A title, so he's the happiest kid in the moon right now. But between the Premier League coverage, and you have to keep an eye on all the big teams.

You have to keep an eye on Man City and Liverpool. And I'll include my Manchester United, even though we’re having a few tough years recently. But Chelsea and Tottenham and all, so you have to pay attention to those games because those are the big content drivers for our show, the call-ins that we're going to get. And then with the Bundesliga on, usually right around the same time, kicking off just a little bit after, I'm bouncing back and forth.

Then when my kids' lives come in, and we've got soccer games or things that I have to do, then I'm relying on highlight packages. I'm trying to bounce around to the different networks, the different subscription packages. YouTube is a huge, huge ally in keeping up with the game. But I'll tell you the hardest is keeping up with all of the MLS games in the evening, because as I'm preparing for whatever broadcast for Real Salt Lake and/or ESPN, there's so many games, so many teams.

And even from last night, I've still not caught up outside of our broadcast because Kenny Neal’s fantastic as a producer/director extraordinaire that we'll roll highlights from Saturday and earlier Sunday games in our Real Salt Lake package. So I'll get a little bit of a teaser, but this morning, waking up, get the boys ready. And then I'll pop in front of my computer, start taking notes and try to catch up on as many highlights and games and condensed match highlights that I possibly can.

Grant Wahl:

I always remember, because I did used to do hosting work occasionally for SiriusXM back in the day. And these were call-in shows, and you never knew what some caller might want to talk about. And so I always prepared like crazy on a bunch of different stuff because you can get caught out pretty quickly, and you can't fake it.

Brian Dunseth:

No, no, you can't. And it's something that I learned really quickly is, so John Harkes and Tony Meola started Counter Attack. They were the iconic face and duo, and obviously their pedigree and playing pedigree is so well-established and known in the U.S. soccer scene. They were, I always joke with them, the Dick Butkuses of soccer for the United States men's national team. So when John left and decided that he was going to go back into coaching, Christopher Sullivan, Janusz Michallik and myself were kind of this three-man rotation with Tony Meola. And I realized really quickly that we label a lot of people, especially in the business. We'll say, "Oh, U.S. international or English international or Premier League winner or Champions League winner." And there's a lot of sweat equity that comes along with that.

Immediately, you're like, "Well, he's played at the highest level. He's done it. You know this guy knows what he's talking about." For someone like myself, I was an MLS guy. I'd bounced around Major League Soccer. I had been with the U.S. under-20s and the Olympic team. And I was fortunate enough to play significant roles in those two underneath Clive Charles. But the national team level, I was only like a camp guy. I was a friendly guy. I never really broke in from that transition of like Carlos Llamosa and Eddie Pope and Gregg Berhalter to Jimmy Conrad and Carlos Bocanegra.

And I never really was able to push through that group. So the moment that I got on Sirius, I realized really quickly, number one, Counter Attack is the most difficult show on the channel because it's everything. It's not just Premier League-centric, or it's not just yell about everything on fire. I'm looking at you, Tom Rennie and Grumpy Pundits. Or it's not just Jason Davis, which is American soccer and the American soccer fan perspective. We're everything.

And I think you and I probably did, I don't know, five to 10 shows together at Sirius. And you're right, you get a phone call, and you don't know where it's coming. It could be about Atlanta United. It could be about Borussia Dortmund. It could be about AC Milan. It could be about West Ham United, or it could be about the Mexican national team. So you have to be aware. And I realized very quickly that I, like you, talking about getting called out. I had this insecurity of, "I have to prove to the listeners that I'm not just this guy that played at this level. And by the way, I'm American. So do I really know the game?" And "Hey, this is our game. What do you know about it?"

I had to be prepared, and I got called out a few times. And I was challenged, and I realized very quickly how all-encompassing this show was going to be. And you had to do the work. And if you're not prepared, people will call you out because they know their teams so much better than you do. And if you try to fluff it, ooh, nope. You'll get called out. You'll get caught. You'll get caught really, really quick.

Grant Wahl:

It's fascinating. One positive aspect of that, though, I am convinced, is that in the United States, we have so many fans of different leagues, different countries from around the world. That if you're in media like you, you do need to be up on a bunch of different leagues. And one thing I’ve found is, and this isn't the case with everybody in media in England or Germany or Italy or Spain, but in the biggest soccer countries in Europe, they actually don't pay that much attention to the other big soccer countries' domestic leagues in Europe.

And they get caught out a little bit if they're doing Champions League stuff. I see this a lot with English broadcasters, where you can tell that they don't know much about what's happening on the continent, and everything is about England, or this player who used to play in England. It's why people in England used to say, "Diego Forlán was not a good player because he wasn't great at Man United." And then he won the Pichichi a bunch of times in Spain. But I actually think this is good for American soccer media. Right?

Brian Dunseth:

I would agree with you. So at Sirius we do a podcast called Week in The Tackle. Tom Rennie, who's over at TalkSPORT, does an incredible job. And he lights everything on fire, huge personality, huge West Ham homer, and basically hates anything that is Top 6. And I can remember we were doing previews for the Euros, and it was he and I, and we were previewing stuff. It was really one of the first times we worked together. And we got done. He's like, "Damn, you know your stuff." And I was like, "Well, we're previewing the Euros." I had to be prepared and like, "I'm paying attention to games." And I was teasing him because then when we started doing Week in The Tackle, we started delving into or dipping our toes into Major League Soccer.

And I get it. Listen, I know from the big talking-point perspective how we categorize what the leagues are and the most important leagues and who wants to pay attention to what. And so for Tom, I started trying to get jerseys for him to buy into MLS teams to pay more attention, but then you have the time change. And the differences, the variables that Europe has to deal with when trying to pay attention to Major League Soccer.

And it was always fascinating to me that the conversation was, I was watching all of these other leagues in the mornings and the afternoons, and then still hyper-focused on Major League Soccer. While to your point, you get so engrossed with just the idea, my country, my team, my league. We'll see what happens if we're involved in Europe.

Grant Wahl:

So when you have a regular partnership like you have with Tony Meola, how does that relationship develop over the years?

Brian Dunseth:

So Tony and I, I look at him as my big brother, man. Grant, I've known Tony, obviously, growing up in the U.S. soccer scene. That beautiful head of lettuce and what he did in the '90 and the '94 World Cup. And I mean, everyone knew Tony Meola. This was like the iconic putting the stamp on U.S. soccer and soccer in the United States. And for all of us, I think, I was born in 1977, I'm 45 years old, to watch that generation above me, the Harkeses, the Meolas, and Cle Kooiman was my coach in Southern California growing up when I was 12 years old. Alexi Lalas was my first teammate when I turned pro, these were magical moments for me when I was turning pro. So because of Clive Charles and the under-23 role that I had, playing with that team, going to the Olympics, being the captain, in the build-up to the Olympics when Steve Sampson was the head coach, Clive Charles was the assistant.

So I was getting called in, or because these camps were in conjunction with one another, alongside one another, when the under-23 camp would end after we'd be scrimmaging and training or whatever with the full team, I would get to stay. I was kind of earmarked to stay and continue to try to develop and learn and see what happened with the first team. And being a central defender, and Tony being a goalkeeper, we had a ton of interaction. But Tony was always fantastic to me, as were all the guys. It was one of those things where, I don't know, our personalities meshed really well. And then we had a family incident. My little sister in 1997, she was getting off the school bus. The bus driver closed the door on the backpack and drug her down the street.

She had a really bad injury. It was a really bad incident. And I had to fly home and handle that. It was right during the MLS playoffs. And Tony had found out, sent me a message, called me. And then literally every time I saw Tony, first thing, "Dunny, how are you? How's your little sister doing?" And it was always like he personalized that relationship for me. So I always had a special place for him. So then playing against him throughout my MLS career. So when this opportunity started, he and I had this meshed organic relationship, a real friendship before, and then to see the aggressive, loud, boisterous Tony Meola with the big old bear claws, the Wreck-It Ralph, flying all over the place. Then to see him now where he's more subdued. The competitiveness has been kind of rolled back.

Now we just have a blast, man. Every day, whether we're texting about stuff and Andrew Williams, our producer, we, the three of us, and whether it's Emmett or Gabe or whoever else is being a part of the show. It's just a fun, organic kind of environment for us to be kind of locker roomy, like bust chops and have fun and tease and poke. I poke the bear all the time, see what I can get out of him. And then, honestly, one of the things I'm most proud about with our relationship is that we've cultivated this environment for the callers and the listeners so we want to act like we're at the bar, and we're having a drink. And everyone's talking about football and soccer, and what happened?

And now, honestly, I can go to different cities, and I'll meet up with listeners from the show because we have created an environment where the listeners, now we will DM or text message or call, and I meet guys face-to-face. And I have great relationships and texting relationships with listeners of the show. And I just think that's incredible. It's so much fun to create something so organic just through a relationship of two guys talking about soccer and football.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah. When you start creating a community, it's a really cool thing. And it sounds like that's exactly what's happened there. So before we go any further, I do want to ask you, we are publishing audio and not video here, but you're in your typical spot that I think viewers and listeners have probably seen before. And behind you there are two framed jerseys from the 2000 Olympics. A tournament I covered in Australia that you got to the semifinals of and played Chile. And that's Ivan Zamorano's jersey.

Brian Dunseth:

Yeah.

Grant Wahl:

And I assume it's from that game in the semifinals. Is there a story behind it?

Brian Dunseth:

Yeah, so I ended up getting injured. I was captain of the team. I ended up getting injured. I had an adductor injury literally the last training session on my own. It was at the old Foxboro Stadium, stepped into a hole, a sand hole, and strained my adductor. So I didn't get to play in the beginning of the tournament.

And so finally when I was healthy at the end of the group stage, Clive Charles was like, "Well, my centerback pairing of Danny Califf and Chad McCarty are playing so well right now, I can't drop them." So hands up, totally get it. No problem. I knew that heading into the first game and facing Samuel Eto'o, if I turned and tried to run with him and my adductor popped, not only was it probably a goal, but then probably a forced substitution. So I didn't want to do that. Clive and I went through that whole song and dance about if I should be involved. So I only got to play, Chad got a yellow. He was on yellow card warning. He got a yellow card against Spain. And I remember sitting on the bench going, "I'm going to get to play in the bronze-medal match. This is going to be great."

Grant Wahl:

That's right, bronze-medal match.

Brian Dunseth:

Yeah. It was the bronze. So it was Bam Bam Zamorano. At the time he was at Inter. He was captain. I was captain. And I've got a picture of the group on one side, and I've got Bam Bam hugging me. We went up to each other and hugged each other afterwards. I'd ended up hitting the crossbar. And Alexi was actually the analyst with Andrés Cantor, the play by play, doing English, which was the very first time Andrés had done English. And so, after we exchanged jerseys. And so I had my backup Jersey, and then I've got his jersey, which I made the mistake of packing in my bag without washing on the way home. So everything was ripe in my bag afterwards, because it was hot down in Australia.

But my neighbor actually across the street, Zack, has a company called the Framing Establishment. So he ended up, he came over one day, and he's like, "Why do you have all these jerseys in a bucket?" And I was like, "I don't know. I mean, what do I do with them?" And he took them, and he framed this up. And the only thing I came across was I actually have the captain's armband just over to my left. And I wish I would've included it in the frame, just because I thought it was kind of cool. You can see it off the right shoulder. But Zamorano, man, what a player. His movement off the ball, front shoulder, back shoulder, incredible in the air, left foot, right foot. He was difficult to keep an eye on, or try to, I always say touch-tight, kind of understand where his momentum was at any point.

Grant Wahl:

What a great run that was by that U.S. team.

Brian Dunseth:

Yeah.

Grant Wahl:

I have some really good memories of that whole tournament. Some random ones, too. That's when Alexi actually shaved his beard for the first time, was in Australia doing that. I remember going to Adelaide where I think it was the U.S. advanced against Japan.

Brian Dunseth:

Yeah. Yeah. Japan.

Grant Wahl:

And I remember, it was kind of funny. I didn't understand time zones. It was like a 30-minute time change to go to Adelaide. I was just like, "What kind of weirdness is this?" But looking forward to going to Australia again next year for the women's World Cup, cool country.

Brian Dunseth:

Jealous.

Grant Wahl:

But I want to ask about something a little more serious right now. And when the CTE stories came out recently about the late Scott Vermillion and then Bruce Murray, who thinks he probably has it, you spoke very eloquently about it. And I'm wondering, why do you think it struck such a chord with you?

Brian Dunseth:

This one, I was talking to my wife about this, because I've had a ton of emotion over this. And when it was the one day that Tony wasn't on the show, and I was with Matty Lawrence, who played over primarily in the Championship a majority of his career. Was here in the United States for his college education playing D1 soccer, and then currently alongside Glenn Crooks on the NYCFC Radio Call.

And I texted him and Emmett McConnell and I said, "Here's this New York Times article about Scott Vermillion. I knew Scott. We were kind of in this brotherhood of the Project-40." For those that don't understand MLS, Project-40 basically was like the start of early-entry college players into Major League Soccer, and still have the college draft. But these are all seniors. So you're getting guys that are 21, 22, 23.

And Sunil Gulati and Nike and U.S. Soccer and MLS came together, and they started Project-40, which turned into Generation Adidas, which is now effectively what the homegrown system looks like, bypassing college and going straight to the pros. Well, I was the second guy to sign, and Scotty came through from UVA. Well, UVA was a much, much bigger school than my Cal State Fullerton, I’ve got to admit. So it was easy for me to leave. And you started to see guys like Scott Vermilion, guys like Benny Olsen, guys like Chris Albright. So Scott, he was a competitor, and I played against him in college. And then when we got into the pros, whether it was at Kansas City or it was at Colorado or it was at DC, or we were traveling over in the off-season, people forget, we'd get this Project-40 collective circus together. And we would go to England, or we would go to Portugal or even later they go down to Argentina with kind of the next generation of P-40s that were signing.

And so Scott and I, he was a right back or a right centerback. And we just played together, and we worked together. And a lot of us, we lose touch with guys that we play with, right? And it happens. Even you go back, anybody, high school, college, you end up losing touch. But that doesn't mean that you still don't have an organic relationship that you can pick up where you left off. And I’d kind of heard about Scott and what was happening in his personal life. And when he passed away, it was kind of in the mix of what was happening with COVID starting up and Christmas Day and all of this.

And I knew he had a family, and he had some kids, and I wasn't aware of what had happened. And I felt horrible. I felt horrible that this had happened. Here's a guy that I know that played alongside me. And he fell on some hard times. But I didn't realize the depth of how CTE or concussions were involved. And then when I saw the report come out, it was devastating to me. It was devastating to recognize and to hear and to see that he was the first person that had been postmortem declared that he had CTE, the first [MLS] soccer player.

And so I wanted to talk about it because I think there's a lot of, I'm going to say, us. I'll do a broad stroke. There's a lot of us. And this is any sport, but I'm going to keep it for soccer, that really struggled to figure out, when it's all said and done, "Okay, who are you? Who are you without the game?" For me, I was no longer Brian Dunseth, the soccer player. I wasn't Dunny, the guy who got to play at the highest level. All of a sudden I was getting married. I was having kids. I was trying to figure out who the hell I was. I made $12,000 the first year after I quote unquote "retired." Thanks a lot, Alexi, when he was the general manager of Galaxy. And then it was like, "Who am I?" And we got caught in this phase where people were asking, "Oh, what are you up to?"

They were interested in your life. But now you were trying to reestablish your identity without the game. And this whole idea of, "Okay, well, I'm struggling. Like, I need help. I need direction." You find out very quickly as an athlete. And again, a broad stroke, I'll say athlete, that there's not a lot of room for you to complain. You have your tight circle, but outside of that people are going to look at you and be like, "Hold it, bro, you made it. You got to play. You got to travel. You got to go to the Olympics. You got to go here. You got to see that. We lived vicariously through you. We'd watch you on television. We were rooting for you, dude. You represented Upland. You represented Fullerton." And all of a sudden you realize, "Oh, I can't talk about this. I can't talk about how hard this is. I got to live this incredibly special life, but now it's in the past."

And we're not doctors, and we're not lawyers, and our careers, our body, when our bodies give out, we're done. And it's usually 30-ish. And then it's, "Who the hell are you?" So throughout this whole process, you start realizing, and I've had conversations with Chad McCarty. I'll give you the laundry list of guys whose careers have ended because of concussion or head injuries. Chad McCarty, Jimmy Conrad, Alecko Eskandarian, Ike Opara, Sam Cronin, and Chad Marshall, Bryan Namoff, Josh Gross, Ross Paule. These are just off the-top-of-my-head. I started reaching out to these guys and trying to figure out how everyone's doing. Because there's so much, I feel like we can talk to ourselves about it because we understand what each other's going through, but it's hard for other people to kind of get it and figure it out.

So for Scotty, long story short, I started thinking about, "Man, he was in a really bad spot." And he probably didn't know what was happening. And he understood he had a brain injury. But whether it was irritability or light sensitivity, or it was depression, or it was high anxiety, or it was something as stupid as not understanding his emotions, the impulse control of what was happening. We don't talk about dementia or CTE, because we're such an early phase of sport here in the United States, where you hear it. And you hear about the studies, and you hear about the leather-weighted wet balls over in Europe and specifically in the Premier League in England. So I just, I think about what he was going through and all of those emotions, all, Grant, it unlocked, man, I didn't expect it.

I had pushed everything so far down, bolted it up. "Hey, I can't feel this. I can't, because I’ve got kids. I’ve got a family. I’ve got a wife. I’ve got to take care of everybody." And so I didn't expect it to happen. And then when Sirius put out the video, all of a sudden it resonated with people. And I got calls from Chris Nowinski at Concussion Legacy Foundation.

And let me stop for a second. Taylor Twellman's done an extraordinary job pushing the envelope for player safety, concussion awareness, and concussion protocol. ThinkTaylor.org, highly suggest anyone who's paying attention. He took it upon himself. I called that game when he got punched in the face and the goalkeeper broke his hand. And that was one of the last big injuries that he suffered before he was forced to retire.

So all of this came together, and now I think talking and then reaching out to so many players that their career was cut short because of injuries. There's a significant concern amongst us. And a lot of us, including myself, haven't reached out to healthcare providers, or seen the correct doctors because quite honestly, Grant, I'm scared shitless of what I'm going to find. It's kind of like, "Don't ask the questions. You don't want the answers to."

And I've been having this conversation with a lot of guys of, "Hey, have you been seen? Have you really gone and talked to somebody and seen a brain specialist? You know, BU and the CTE studies are doing an incredible job, have you?" And a lot of guys are like, "No, I haven't. I haven't." And then you get into, "How are you numbing yourself? How are you dealing with all of this?" And for me personally, it's I leaned into alcohol, and kind of … cutting that down a little bit. I'm trying. Not that I can't function, but just taking that edge off. So … yeah, sorry, man.

Grant Wahl:

No, man.

Brian Dunseth:

It's been hard, and I've been talking to my wife a lot. And I didn't realize that underneath everything that I've kind of built and been told, "Don't be soft. Be strong." Then all of a sudden, that box got opened up because of Scotty, because I just think about him being in that room, or him being in that dark place and not having the assets, the mental health or the medical assets that he needed in a time where he was by himself. And talking to other guys, man, I fear for my group and my generation as we continue to learn about CTE. And Bruce [Arena] reached out to me before the story went public a couple of weeks ago and was telling me what was happening. And I was unaware of what was happening, but he decided to share because of when that video went live on Sirius.

And I just, I want to be a part of the solution. I want to be an advocate. I'm trying to reach out to as many people as possible. This last week I've donated my brain to the CTE study. I've signed up for the hits study as well, for people that are over the age of 40 to try to figure out what the impact has been for sport on our brain. And I think about what this legacy, and it is going to be a legacy, unfortunately, it's going to be a serious legacy in the world of soccer in the United States as we continue to learn more. I fear for the MLSPA. I fear for the league. I fear for ourselves as we in five years time. We, broad stroke. We're probably about five years behind all the time in terms of medical studies and information. In five years time, how many players are publicly diagnosed with severe brain trauma from our playing career?

And to be clear, this isn't like a singular event. This isn't MLS's problem because guys played in MLS, so they get caught holding the bag. It's from childhood all the way up, and minimizing heading the ball up until you're 12 is fantastic. I still have issues that we're not teaching children how then once they become 12 years old to head the ball properly. But for all of these incidents. And I've had six.

I got a concussion on my MLS debut. I got a concussion my first MLS goal, Rusty Pierce headbutted me in the temple. We still kind of laugh about that. I taste Eggo waffles straight out of the toaster with a little metallic taste. When I know I quote, unquote, "Got my bell rung." That's how I justify that something's wrong. My left eye vision gets a little wonky, gets a little messed up. And so I kind of knew what I was dealing with. But now, as we're getting older, these conversations, man, Grant, I've been reaching out to so many players just checking in on them. And a lot of guys are dealing with some tough stuff right now and trying to figure out what's the next solution.

Grant Wahl:

Well, first off, I just want to say, thank you for being so heartfelt about this and so open. And it's a lot. I know it is. And I mean, not many ex-pro athletes are willing to be as vulnerable as you have been on radio and television about this. Why do you think that is?

Brian Dunseth:

I think guys are, again, it's the machismo, right? It's "You’ve got to be strong. You’ve got to be tough." We've been taught since we were, well, especially in highly competitive environments. Even going back to club soccer. "You’ve got to grit through it. We need you. You’ve got to play through it." And the levels ramp up from competitive club soccer to college level. Once you get to the pros, then there's a dynamic of your self-worth is equitable to your paycheck. And as you get raises, or as you get bigger contracts, that's how you're justifying the value of yourself, but also how important you are to your respective club. And guys are deathly afraid of losing that status. First of all, you don't want to lose your starting spot. You don't want to lose your role as an impact sub.

And, God forbid, you're injured enough to where the coach or the club doesn't look at you as, "We can't trust you. We can't trust you and your body." So all of this is ingrained in your mentality. You're fighting every single day, not only for that position in the team, but you're fighting for yourself and your value. You're fighting for your family and your stability. Every time I bought a house in Major League Soccer, I got traded. I got a new contract with Columbus Crew. I'm going to go buy a house. Six months later, traded. I'm coming back from Sweden. I'm signing with Real Salt Lake. I'm going to buy a house. Nine months later, traded. So all of these are like levels of how we look at success.

But again, then you're gone, and there's a disconnect. It starts with the disconnect from your brotherhood of this team that you're fighting for. They always say, "Fight for the badge and fight for the name on the jersey on the front, not on the back." Well, yeah, until they don't want you anymore. And then there's no brotherhood. Then you're just a former player. And then there's nowhere to turn. There's a disconnect with those guys. They see what happened to you. And they're scared to death of knowing, inevitably, that'll be them at some point. So, "We like you, but man, good luck, bro. We'll see what happens."

And it happens, that's a real thing. And so I think for all of us, we lock it up. We put it away. We say, "Man, what an incredible run." And, "What's next?" And a lot of us have families and children, and you can't expose that insecurity and that fear of emotion coming out. And again, I thought I put it away. And I can't tell you how many conversations I've had with Taylor privately talking about and texting him and asking for referral or guidance. Or, "Hey, what's working for you? This is what I'm dealing with right now." And first message I got was Taylor, "I'm proud of you." Because like you said, not a lot of us talk about it. And I think it's the fear of falling on dead ears. It's the fear of, "Ugh, there goes Dunny again. Ugh. Talking about his head injuries. Dude, get over it, bro." For me, that's what I was extremely fearful about.

Grant Wahl:

It's great that you're checking on other people. I hope people are checking on you, too, my friend.

Brian Dunseth:

I appreciate you. Thank you.

Grant Wahl:

And I guess one question I would have is what do you want to see happen in terms of protecting players that you're not seeing right now?

Brian Dunseth:

For me, this is something that I'm wrestling with right now because like I said, I want to be an advocate. I want to be an ally. I don't want to light everything on fire. I don't want to like cancel everything. And I'm not trying to take the sport into a direction that is unidentifiable. That's nothing. This is for me as organic to me as a human being as I possibly can, just trying to figure out what the solutions could be. I'm in the midst of just trying to go through different football associations and players associations from not only abroad, but here in the States with different sports in trying to figure out what could be a positive step in the right direction.

And I know from an MLS Players Association, we are still quote, unquote, I would say, in the "infancy." The infancy of this Players Association, even though it's grown tremendously since the start of being in a courtroom and watching Sunil Gulati being deposed or testifying as to what's happening with Major League Soccer. As Semioli and company were trying to start a player's association. John Kerr Jr., back in the day, for all the MLS After Darkers.

I would love to see assets being available to former players. Even something as silly as opt-in healthcare. And I know that's, I'm saying it's silly, but for us as players, when you're done with the team, it's like, "Thank you very much. Good luck. Appreciate what you've done." And then you're like, "Until I die," whatever, there's a hashtag associated with your goodbye tweet. But the amount of guys that still need some type of therapy or have some type of injury, or that maybe are in a tough place. Are there counselors or therapists available for the transition into that next life? Instead of going to COBRA for $2,500 a month, is there some type of opt-in healthcare program that'll be available? Because teams have healthcare programs, and could you subsidize some type of opt-in healthcare program?

Long-term? I would love to see a pension plan set up from Major League Soccer and the MLSPA and tie it into future earnings, figure it out some way. But even looking at LinkedIn the other day, what Chris Paul and the NBA are doing with the NBA Players Association with ABA players, back in the day, and what they've done. And I know the money's significantly different. And then I don't expect MLSPA or Major League Soccer to sort out what a player's life looks like post-playing career with regards to any type of employment, or what they should do. The individual has to figure that out.

But how can we provide, or how can it be provided that there's guidance, some type of guidance program? So from the healthcare side, the physical side, the mental side, that's all taken care of. And then creating a continued growth of a network that affords guys maybe a little bit more direction. Just a little bit more direction. Because as the league continues to grow and the teams and the players, and the amount of players retiring and staying in the United States, I can't see why we can't start to put the bones together of something that I think is so important. Not only for the real time athletes, but I keep telling those real time athletes, you're only a couple of seasons or a couple of plays away from being in the same position I find myself in.

Grant Wahl:

We're winding down here with Brian Dunseth. Really appreciate you taking this much time to talk. Just a couple more questions. And transitions are always jarring when you go from something like that topic to, "Oh, yeah, let's talk about what's happening on the field."

But here we are. What's going on out in Salt Lake? I mean, I've had Pablo Mastroeni and David Blitzer on my podcast in recent months. The team is doing well on the field. Obviously, it's drawing extremely well in the stands, even more so this season. What's causing all that?

Brian Dunseth:

I think David Blitzer's group and Ryan Smith's group have reinvigorated this fan base, especially after what's transpired off the field for the last couple of years. There is more of an emphasis on game day experience. And if you come out to the stadium at Rio Tinto Stadium, I mean, it's got to be a million, couple million, just invested in everything. From you walk in, there's a bucket of flags, and you just grab one. And you get in the stands, you wave it, and you just drop it back in the bucket on the way out.

To the paint, the claret and cobalt paint. To the graffiti. And I'm saying graffiti, and that sounds bad, but the graffiti artistry that's been placed around the stadium. And then just even to the banners. The game day environment, bringing the fan culture and the supporter group in the south end all into that bottom right behind the goal, all of these things are important.

And I think a lot of it's been, the fans are finally having their voice heard, and there's interaction. And it's real time face-to-face with the ownership group, which is what any fan that has gripes or opinions wants to be heard. And then Pablo's incredible, man, having played against Pablo, played alongside Pablo, worked with Pablo, and now, having this relationship as broadcaster/coach, along with friendship, the way he... You know, Pabs, right? "Oh, that's a beautiful tree." And Pab would be like, "Yeah, but the roots, man, have you ever thought about how this tree goes so deep in the ground? And the roots spread out, and that's the life of the ground, man." He's just, he's incredible, just the way his mind works.

So the way that he's got this team going, he's created the culture and the atmosphere behind the scenes, still dealing with the loss of Albert Rusnak in the off-season, and Damir Kreilach being out all season, Bobby Wood having a fantastic year, being injured. And somehow this team with all the games lost because of player injury, is currently in third place in the Western conference. It's just all clicking.

And as you reference 10 consecutive sellouts at Rio Tinto Stadium, is something really we haven't seen since the Jason Kreis/Garth Lagerwey MLS Cup-winning or CONCACAF Champions League final grouping. There's a buzz around the city. And I'm really, really excited to see what the next couple of years looks like underneath this stewardship.

Grant Wahl:

I also want to ask about the new Apple/MLS deal, with that having just been announced. And there's a lot that's up in the air. Are you up in the air on being able to call RSL games next season?

Brian Dunseth:

Yeah. So for those that don't understand, all the home broadcasts are gone at the end of the season. And for all the uproar, just to be clear, everybody associated with any club or any broadcast knew at the end of 2022 that something was going to happen. For me, I signed my deal three years ago, and I'm not a full-time employee. "Here's my contract for game rate." And it was up until 2022. There was talk about maybe extending it to 2023, as everyone was waiting to see what the announcement would be and who the announcement would be coinciding with. So I, like everybody, was nervous and trying to figure out, am nervous, trying to figure it out. There's I would assume MLS and Apple have their list of guys that they're interested in. I would assume also the infrastructure has to be laid first and foremost, because you’ve got to get the games to air.

Will I be a part of it? I hope so. Is there anything confirmed? There's not. But I think there's a lot of really, really fun, strong talent available. And I think, like everybody, we're all going to be intrigued to see what this looks like. Is it full-time studio? Is it shoulder programming? Is it on-site? I still am a huge believer in what NBC Sports does when they put the desk on the field, and you've got the warm-ups behind them and that immediacy and the visuals that happen. I think that's a great atmosphere builder that needs to continue to be exposed.

And then ultimately, how many teams? Who's on the road? Are you on-site? Are you back in the studio? What does this look like? Is it a full-time gig? Is it a part-time gig? For someone like myself, who's freelance across the board, doing SiriusXM from my basement in my office, to doing local television shows and local radio shows, what does this look like? So because I haven't had a full-time gig since I was an MLS player back in 2006. So I think we're all just trying to figure out what this looks like. And I mean hopefully selfishly for myself, I hope there's a role for me and I can be included.

Grant Wahl:

Brian Dunseth hosts Counter Attack weekday afternoons on SiriusXM FC, SiriusXM's 24/7 soccer channel. He's also a TV analyst for Real Salt Lake and ESPN. Dunny, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Brian Dunseth:

Grant, I really appreciate the platform, the opportunity and the friendship, man. Thank you so much.

Available for iOS and Android

The Interview: Asmir Begovic

Grant Wahl — Wed, 13 Jul 2022 23:49:04 GMT

(Photo by Tony McArdle/Everton FC via Getty Images)

A few years ago, I interviewed Asmir Begovic for the first time when he joined me and Luis Miguel Echegaray on our old weekly video show for Sports Illustrated. That was an enjoyable experience, so it was nice to catch up with Asmir again this week as his Everton team arrives in the United States for preseason.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is goalkeeper Asmir Begovic, who’s visiting the United States this summer with Everton as the club takes on Arsenal in Baltimore on July 16 and Minnesota United on July 20 in Saint Paul. Asmir, it's great to talk to you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Asmir Begovic:

Hey, Grant. It's great to be with you. Nice to see you again after all these years.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah, likewise. And we follow each other on Twitter, so I feel like I've been keeping up with everything you're doing. I know how much you tweet about the NBA and the NFL and Major League Baseball. I know you spent years growing up in Canada. Is that how you became such a fan of U.S. pro sports, or is there another reason?

Asmir Begovic on Frank Lampard: “He's honestly been first-class ever since he's walked through the door. Obviously took over in a very difficult position, walked into a bit of a fire and dealt with it in the best possible way. All season, the way he inspired people, the way he kept people together, the way he got everyone to grow.”

Asmir Begovic:

No, absolutely. That's exactly the way. I'm a sports junkie, and obviously growing up in Canada, in North America, I fell in love with North American sports and all the leagues. I've got my teams, but I've certainly got opinions on everything that I follow and enjoy. And obviously I have a big blast with it, so it's a lot of fun. So thanks for following. I appreciate it.

Grant Wahl:

Who are your teams in those leagues?

Asmir Begovic:

Well, my teams, Grant, are a little bit random. I've got my Patriots in the NFL. I've got my Phoenix Suns in the NBA. And then of course in the NHL, growing up in Edmonton, I've got the Oilers. And then in baseball I've got the Yankees. So all for different reasons. All for different reasons, but those are my teams.

Grant Wahl:

I have to ask then, how do you end up picking those teams growing up in Edmonton?

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Asmir Begovic:

Well, Grant, now you're really diving into these things, aren't you? So of course in Edmonton, you have to be an Oilers fan. It feels like a religion, and that was the number one sport, and that was my local team, of course. Then I think if you're into the NBA, so the Grizzlies were around for a little bit, the Vancouver Grizzlies, but it was all about the Raptors, or most people liked [Canadian] Steve Nash. So whatever team he was on, that's the team you followed and you supported. So from my point of view, I like Steve Nash and I like the Suns.

And then actually, I've become really good friends with Stevie. So I followed him as well, but obviously stayed a Suns fan ever since. And it's been a crazy, very difficult... Well, decade, but obviously the last couple years have been a lot better, so actually a lot more hopeful, so that's been nice. And then Patriots because of Tom Brady. So as I was getting into the NFL, Tom Brady was coming on the scene. So I quite liked him, and then the whole Patriots thing stuck from there. And then the same with the Yankees. I like baseball. Never quite got into the Blue Jays. I don't know why. But I liked Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter and those guys and stuck with the Yankees ever since. So there you go.

Grant Wahl:

So you're qualified to host a sports radio talk show in the United States, I think, at this point.

Asmir Begovic:

No, listen, Grant, I’ve still got a few years of playing. Obviously, as long as they want me here, I'll hang around here and then I'll come over your way and host a couple shows.

Grant Wahl:

So Everton comes to the U.S. as a Premier League team after staying up at the end of last season. How would you describe what the end of last season was like on the team, and staying up?

Asmir Begovic:

Yeah, Grant, I think it was a difficult year, of course, for many different reasons. And then especially the last couple months were really very tough on everyone. I think the pressure, the stress of everything, was a lot for everyone to take and have to deal with. But I think it's something that we can take a lot of positives from at the end of the day.

We grew together. I think us as players, as staff, as a whole team, as a whole club, and I think as a city and the fan base, we really connected and got ourselves over that line and secured safety. And it took everyone really digging deep and putting all the effort in together to achieve that goal. So I think we can grow from it. I think we can learn from that experience, and hopefully be better going forward because of it all.

Grant Wahl:

And what did you learn about Frank Lampard as a manager so far?

Asmir Begovic:

Yeah, I've learned a lot. He's honestly been first class ever since he's walked through the door. Obviously took over in a very difficult position, walked into a bit of a fire and dealt with it in the best possible way. All season, the way he inspired people, the way he kept people together, the way he got everyone to grow. And like I said, really, he was the one that connected everyone, all these different parts, that then helped us stay up and obviously achieve our main goal.

Grant Wahl:

So what sort of things are you excited about for Everton as the new season approaches?

Asmir Begovic:

Well, listen, every season brings a fresh approach, a positive approach. I think one, we're led by a great manager and a great man, and I think someone who's galvanized everyone, got a great staff. So I think from that point of view it's a big thing for us. So it's kind of headed in the right direction. I think there's a lot more positivity in and around the place because of that. So I think that's good.

Always at Everton, I think we've got a quality squad. We've got really good players. I think we've got an extremely big passionate fan base. So I think all these things can always make you feel really positive and head into any season looking forward to it, rather than obviously dreading anything. So I think we've got all the ingredients to have a good season, a much better season, and hopefully a little bit of luck along the way will go a long way as well. So I think all those things considered, we should be looking at things in a positive way.

Grant Wahl:

You're obviously a veteran, you've been around a lot of years in this sport. Another pre-season starts. How do you approach the pre-season?

Asmir Begovic:

Veteran, Grant? [laughs] I like how you put that. Yeah, don't tell anyone. No, I approach it as most other years. It's funny, of course the years go by and next thing you know I'm heading into year 18 of being a professional, which is pretty crazy. So I approach it like all other ones. I'm excited as ever. I love to work. I love to push myself, grind it out and all that kind of stuff. So I approach it as anything, just as excited as I've been any year, and my passion for the game and the work every day, because I think that's the most important.

I think that if you're willing to work every day, push yourself every day, and try and get better and learn every day, then I think that goes a long way. And I think if you're dreading going into training and you don't enjoy that part, then of course you're going to make it more difficult. So I'm enjoying it. Pre-season’s difficult as always. It's always a grind, always a long slog, but I'm really looking forward to the work and I've enjoyed the work so far.

Grant Wahl:

Has the Premier League changed in your experience, in any ways over your career, because you've been around it a long time now. And I can remember even in the late 90s, going to see my first Premier League games. In those days it was unusual to have many sort of international cosmopolitan teams. And now it's like the most international league in the world, it seems like. Do you have any sense that it's evolving in any ways?

Asmir Begovic:

Yeah. Grant, it really is evolving every single year. It seems to get better overall. Every single year it seems to get tougher. I mean, you look at... Let's go back 10, 15 years ago, I think there was your top four and then a couple other teams hanging around, and then it was sort of the rest, whereas I think there isn't such a difference anymore. I think there's so many good clubs, so many good teams. Everyone has the resources, most teams. Some have more, for sure, but everyone has an incredibly talented roster with a lot of quality.

So every single game now is incredibly tough. I think before, you'd always look at a couple games where you really fancied yourself, but now every single game you have to treat incredibly seriously, and that's the evolution. That's the growth of the Premier League. The quality of players all around, for every team, I think the quality of the product, the stadiums, the pitches, I mean just everything, every year, seems to go in the right direction, and growing in the right way all the time.

Grant Wahl:

You've had some interesting stops in recent years. You were also with Milan, which just won the title this past season. You were in Azerbaijan even for a little while. What led to those moves and then coming back to England?

Asmir Begovic:

Yeah, in football it can be very unpredictable, and things change in the blink of an eye, really. So I guess I'll go back... Let's see, 2019 I went to Azerbaijan, so three years ago. That's what happens, the business side, teams, clubs make a decision. Sometimes you're part of the plans and sometimes you're not, and I found myself on the outside looking in. And as you have it, it's the end of the window, and a random opportunity came up to go to Qarabag and I took it. I wanted to go and play. I wanted to experience something different while I was playing in my career, and it was one of the best decisions I ever made.

I had the time in my life over there, I met some incredible people, was blown away by the infrastructure of the team and the club, which I didn't expect. Again, it just shows the growth of the game everywhere and how much people value football to have that sort of an infrastructure and things in place, in a country people wouldn't have thought of. So I really still have some really good friends from my time there, and I follow their results very, very closely. Again, it was such a positive experience for me.

And then that led obviously to my move to Milan. Again, I think it goes to show that if you go anywhere around the world now, if you play well and do your thing in the right way, then people will be watching, everything's so much more accessible now. And that was again just another amazing experience. I mean, to be in a club like that, of that stature. I really haven't seen many like it, and obviously had some really good teammates. Again, made some friends. We had a great run.

I think it was sort of the start with the new era of Paolo Maldini, Ricky Massara, Zvonomir Boban at that time coming in. They wanted to bring in certain types of people and players to start that rebuild, shall we say, of the club. And obviously that now has finally led to them winning the Scudetto, which is where AC Milan need to be. They need to be competing for those trophies every single year, and it was fantastic to see.

And then I go back to Bournemouth, then I'm back in the plans. They're happy for me to be there, and obviously I'm happy to be there. And obviously we have a good season and then another great opportunity to come and join a club like Everton comes around.

So in football, you can never look too far ahead. That's what it's taught me for sure. I don't look too far ahead. Enjoy the present, make the most of it and see where it takes you.

Grant Wahl:

And is there an update on your international career? Are you still playing internationally for Bosnia-Herzegovina?

Asmir Begovic:

No, I've not retired. Never retired. I find it very difficult for me to kind of rule myself out and retire from it, because it's representing my country. But Grant, it's not a great situation over there at the moment. I mean if it's the right circumstances, of course, I'll always represent my country while I can, while I'm fit and healthy. But at the same time, at the moment, it's just going through a bit of a transition and weird stage. So I get to enjoy a few extra days with my family and stay at home, which is also very nice.

Grant Wahl:

Couple more questions here with Asmir Begovic, really appreciate the time. I know at one point you did play for Canada at youth level before you chose to represent Bosnia-Herzegovina. Are you at all surprised to see Canada qualify for the men's World Cup and actually win the CONCACAF qualifying tournament?

Asmir Begovic:

Well, no, I'm not surprised. I had to make that decision 13, 14 years ago now, when the situation was completely different. I think at that time soccer in Canada wasn't definitely anywhere near the stage it is now, and the infrastructure and the teams, and MLS teams and the CPL and everything that it has, so it was difficult to see opportunities. I think you had to be in Europe. I think you had to play at the highest level there, if you could. And if you really wanted to play at the highest level, right?

So that's why, it was a footballing decision, plus obviously a family decision for me at the time, but I always knew the potential was there. And that's why it's not a surprise, because the potential was there. The participation, kids, people wanted to play the game. They just obviously have to be given the opportunity to play, and play at a good level. And then obviously now with the growth of the MLS and the teams and the academies and the CPL, those opportunities were not available when I was coming through the ranks.

And of course I was never capped, so it gave me a chance to move, but not surprised at all. It's just amazing to see. I wish them all the very, very best at the World Cup. I hope they do well. I'll be cheering for them, and I hope the growth continues even more.

Grant Wahl:

How many more years do you want to keep playing?

Asmir Begovic:

You know, I've never put a limit on it, Grant, honestly, because I think if you put a limit on it, it's like a ticking clock really, and I've never really put that. I just want to go as long as I can and while I feel good, and as long as I'm wanted and see what other adventures are out there for me. But I certainly don't feel my age, I have to say, I'm able to do everything and still compete with the best at the highest level. And that's what I enjoy doing. And hopefully I can do it for a few more years and let's see what else there is in store.

Grant Wahl:

Yeah. I mean, it's a situation where you're playing in recent years with some very elite clubs. Do you have any interest in potentially finishing up over in MLS?

Asmir Begovic:

For sure. For sure. I've always been open to opportunities. Like I said, I went to Azerbaijan, I played in Italy. I'm open to everything else. Never rule anything out in this game, that's what I would say. But if the right opportunity comes around, for sure. Why not? I guess at this stage, the difference probably from five to 10 years ago is that I've got a family, I've got kids and stuff like that. So it's not a decision that I can just take on my behalf. I think it's a collective decision, so we'll wait and see.

I've got a year here at Everton. I'm looking forward to the season and helping this team and this club in any way I can. Obviously looking forward to our pre-season trip over to America, and getting ourselves ready for the season ahead. And obviously a difficult season, a tough season, which the Premier League’s always going to be. But what happens after that, I don't know. I don't know. Like I said, things can change very, very quickly in football.

Obviously if you hear of anyone looking for goalkeeper in the future, Grant, make sure you put my name in, but we'll wait and see. We'll wait and see. Like I said, I'm enjoying it here. I'm in a great club with some great people and focused on the present. And obviously we'll see where the future takes me.

Grant Wahl:

And I know your wife is American. Have you spent a lot of time in the U.S. over the years?

Asmir Begovic:

Yeah. I've spent a lot of time. She's half-American. She was born in America. Her dad's American. Mom's English, has spent now many, many years over here in the UK. So yeah, we have a fondness for North America, America. We've been on holiday. We've gone and traveled there for events for different reasons. So, yeah, it's not a huge chore to head over Stateside, that's for sure. But yeah, it's an open one. I could see it happening for sure if the right thing comes about, but like I said, we'll see. You never know.

Grant Wahl:

Asmir Begovic is coming to the United States this summer with Everton as the club takes on Arsenal in Baltimore on July 16 and Minnesota United in Saint Paul on July 20. Asmir, it's always great to talk to you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Asmir Begovic:

Was a pleasure, Grant. Thank you.

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The Interview: Andy McDermott

Grant Wahl — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 23:02:27 GMT

Courtesy Andy McDermott

Andy McDermott is a soccer renaissance guy doing some terrific work. I spoke to him in early June about his new nonprofit in Chicago and his amazing story, which you can listen to on my podcast. The written version is entirely free to read below.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is Andy McDermott. He's the president and founder of Intentional Sports, a nonprofit that's building a big sports facility, including for soccer, on the West Side of Chicago. Andy played soccer at Northwestern, followed by seven seasons of pro soccer in Germany, Chicago, Indianapolis and Charlotte. He then spent nine years working as a police officer in Phoenix, and then became an actor, with his break in the Will Ferrell film Everything Must Go in 2012.

From 2017 to 2020, he was the director of culture at the Copa Soccer Training Center in the East Bay of San Francisco. He's obviously a man of many talents. Andy, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on the show.

Andy McDermott:

Hey, Grant. Thanks for having me.

“I said, ‘Will [Ferrell], man, I’ve just got to ask. You think about Remember the Titans and The Natural and Hoosiers, some of these movies that I was raised on in sports. How come no one's ever made that great drama movie about soccer?’ I mean, Victory aside, of course. We all love that movie. He looked at me with a straight face and he said, ‘What? You didn't see Kicking & Screaming?’” — Andy McDermott

Grant Wahl:

Lots to talk about here, but I want to start with Intentional Sports, what you're doing in Chicago. What is Intentional Sports?

Andy McDermott:

Yeah. Thanks. That is a great question. I always say it's really exciting and also terrifying at the same time, because we are building about 152,000 square feet on the West Side of Chicago in the North Austin neighborhood right where it intersects with Belmont-Cragin, Hermosa and Humboldt Park. So it is accidentally the perfect spot, because that kind of mixture of cultures, sports, frankly, might be the only thing that could combine everyone there and bring everybody together under one roof.

And it's a pretty rough spot, which is why we have to be there, because kids in urban centers... As you know, it's not just Chicago. But Chicago is kind of the prime example, because we're on the front page of the paper, if you still read the paper, front page of the headlines, for all the wrong reasons these days. Because in my opinion, kids just aren't getting the chance to play sports. School gets out, and then there's no positive place to go. They just leave and they make their own decisions.

What Intentional Sports will soon look like in Chicago (Courtesy Intentional Sports)

And I say it all the time. If I was a kid and I didn't have a soccer practice to go to or some activity to go to, then I'd have made bad decisions too. I mean, I was a knucklehead, just like any other kid. And if you let kids make their own choices, then they're going to gravitate towards where they're pulled. So we just really want to give kids the chance to fall in love with a sport, fall in love with a game, fall in love with an activity.

GrantWahl.com is a reader-supported soccer newsletter. Quality journalism requires resources. The best way to support me and my work is by taking out a paid subscription now. Free 7-day trials are available.

Obviously, I'm biased. I'm a soccer guy. So soccer will play a huge role in this facility. Every day after school, these kids, they won't pay financially for these programs, but they pay with their academic standards and their attendance and their character-building. And if they put the name on their shirt of Intentional Sports or Chicago Fire community soccer programs or Jason Heyward Baseball Academy, if they wear that and they're a member of those academies, then they have to earn it by staying out of trouble and hopefully learning the lessons that we all learned on a soccer field about self-discipline and dedication and accountability and being a teammate and conflict resolution, all these things.

So in a nutshell, it is a very safe space that we're going to bring great programs together, and hopefully get kids in the building in the afterschool time. And then because we're a tax exempt 501(c)(3), we're able to be self-sustaining in our business model by hosting adult leagues at night after those nonprofit programs in all the different sports. Whether it's soccer, futsal, basketball, baseball, youth leagues and tournaments on the weekends, camps, clinics, anything, frankly, that will bring some revenue in because we're not trying to make any money here.

All of that money will go back to keeping the lights on, but then providing all of those scholarships and those free programs. So we're not trying to get rich here. We're trying to make just enough money so that we can provide all that free programming, and we don't have to rely upon donations year after year.

Grant Wahl:

Tell me a little bit about what the facility includes, because it seems like a lot.

Andy McDermott:

Yeah, absolutely. I think the architects picked up on my insanity level in the first conversation I had with them over Zoom, when I was still living in California. I was kind of being recruited or tricked into moving back to Chicago to lead this thing. But I said, "Hey, look, the golden egg in Chicagoland would be a full turf fieldhouse." And they said, "Well, how big is that?" I said, "Well, minimum FIFA standards is 110 by 70." They said, "110 feet by 70 feet, that's easy." I said, "No, yards. We talk in yards." And they said, "Whoa."

So then they went to work on these huge pieces of steel. And it’s absolutely the worst time in history to buy huge pieces of steel. But of course, they said, "Well, if you believe that that's going to be the thing," on both sides. I call it the internal programs, to provide all these other programs. And then external, to get people to come into the building from wherever it is. From the suburbs, from the North Side, wherever, to come and spend money and contribute to what we're doing, then you got it.

So they agreed to that. So our turf fieldhouse is 40 feet tall, it's 110 yards by 70 yards of FIFA standard turf. We'll have motorized curtains in there to break it up into four 7v7 fields or two flag football fields. We'll have motorized bating cages for... I think I mentioned Jason Heyward is one of our champions here, from the Chicago Cubs, the Jason Heyward Baseball Academy. So, we'll be able to use that turf really well.

And then quickly, the other spaces are four basketball/futsal/volleyball courts. So 12 hoops or four courts like that. And then we'll have a strength and conditioning center, both inside and outside, locker rooms, restrooms, a big multipurpose room, which we can use for sports or music theater, performance, arts. We can also have about 450 seats in there. It's in the plans to do a guest speaker series, where once a month, we have someone like Grant Wahl come in and speak to kids.

And we do coaching education and referee certification and licensing and things, so that people from the community can become soccer coaches or refs or umpires. That's really where this place makes a difference. It's not if Andy McDermott is running this place, but in a couple years if someone from the community is running this place and then our entire staff is from the community. And then it's a generational change, because eventually these kids will be coaching their own kids in this place. That's when I think we've really made a difference.

Grant Wahl:

What's your timeline for getting going, opening up?

Andy McDermott:

If I could share with you a drone photo right now, you could see it's massive. It's a cavernous space. And the great thing is that land has been vacant for 40 years, so to repurpose that 10 acres, we got some help from the city of Chicago, from the state of Illinois. I could tell you about the fundraising later, but it's been really one amazing surprise, miracle after miracle, to get this far. Construction tells me that by end of October, November, we should have the keys to be able to at least do soft opening events, staff training. Maybe a few celebrity games in there by the end of the year, and then open for programming Q1, 2023.

Grant Wahl:

On your board, I noticed there's some very familiar names on the board of Intentional Sports, including Oguchi Onyewu, Hugo Pérez, Charmaine Hooper, Lisa Byington, a few others as well. How did they get involved? What is their involvement?

Andy McDermott:

Well, I really just guilt-tripped them into saying yes. They've been an amazing startup board. Unashamedly, I needed some folks with some networks and some influence, just to lend some legitimacy to what we're doing, because nobody cares who Andy McDermott is. But when Hugo Pérez puts his name behind something, then you know that it's not just quality football, but ever since I met him in the East Bay of San Francisco, when we were in development for that USL Championship team out there, and I was tasked with being the sporting director and start to create that program, I went and had coffee with Hugo, because he was in the area. My plan was to beg him to be the head coach and technical director of that team.

And I just really fell in love with his view towards the game and development and technical play. But also, he just said there has to be a community aspect to this. He wouldn't have done that just for money. He said, "How do we get the community involved in this?" That resonated with me and just stuck with me. And then here, three years later, he was my first call. Said, "Hey, Hugo, we're going to do this, in this place." Before I even asked him to be a board member, he said, "Well, yeah. You want me to come and do some clinics? When do you want me to come?" I was like, "You're perfect. You're exactly the kind of champion for this."

So he's just one example. But then Lisa and I were friends at Northwestern. She's obviously amazing in the sports broadcasting space. Then Charmaine Hooper and I trained together when I was with the Chicago Stingers. Her husband, Chuck Codd, was a teammate of mine. She was playing for the Chicago Cobras at that time and then the Atlanta Beat of the old, what was it, WUSA?

Grant Wahl:

Yes!.

Andy McDermott:

I just remember, I think someone made the mistake of telling me, "Hey, Charmaine is training with you guys, so take it easy. Make sure that you don't injure her." And then I was I think on the ball and absolutely got crushed by Charmaine. So I learned quickly, don't take it easy around Charmaine, because she's faster and better and stronger than you anyway. And on and on with that board, it's just some really good humans who have helped lend their network, their ideas in helping get this place started.

Grant Wahl:

It's interesting. We're recording this right around the time the U.S. men's national team plays El Salvador again, in the Nations League. That's El Salvador coached by Hugo Pérez. U.S. coached by Gregg Berhalter, who lives in Chicago. I've seen a couple of quotes from Gregg about your project. He admires what you're doing. Do you have a connection with Gregg in Chicago as well?

Andy McDermott:

I have. I'm a huge fan. I know Soccer Twitter, U.S. Soccer Twitter always has a love/hate relationship with whoever our head coach is. I'm a big fan. I know him to be a really smart guy.I always tell people, look, I promise he's trying his best to win. It's not like he has any other desire here than win every game. So that said, off the field I've really gotten to appreciate him as a champion for giving everybody an opportunity to play.

He just has a heart for equity and diversity and inclusion. So he came and played. We had what I call a loading dock legends game last summer, where the only place that's not under construction out there is the old loading dock in front of the Glidden paint factory, or the old Glidden paint factory, which is now a community center. Some Northwestern soccer alumni pitched in to get that resurfaced. We resurfaced it, put some lines down, some goals. And now it's this street soccer pitch, which is a pretty cool space there for us to play with some kids while we're under construction.

But anyway, Gregg came and played. Oguchi came, DaMarcus Beasley came, Charmaine came. And a handful of some local legends from the women's side and the men's side came and played in this legends game. And Gregg and I completely cheated because our other two... it was four v four, our other two was my 14 year old son and his 14 year old daughter, both of whom are much quicker and better at soccer. It gets competitive, as it always does, when you have a bunch of old guys like us. We made it to the finals, lost to Oguchi's team. So Oguchi has the bragging rights this year, but we fully let little Lily and Luke score all the goals. And we parked the bus back in front of the goal.

But Gregg introduced me then, to a couple of other great people, who have really helped out. The U.S. Soccer Foundation and Ed Foster-Simeon, his team there have been awesome. His guy Alex Bard has connected me. We're gonna have two of their Musco Lighting mini pitches out front of our facility, which I'm just really excited about.

I mean, the inside of the facility is going to be amazing, but that will be kind of the first thing that people see when they pull up, is these two little mini pitches with great walls and lights and 3v3, so it’s perfect for old guys like me because it’s only 20 yards long. But I think that will be a really cool cultural spot where people can just come and do pickup games and just hang out. That's what we want it to be, is just a safe space for people to gather.

Grant Wahl:

I do want to get into your many varied careers, but before I do that, if people want to learn more about what you're doing with Intentional Sports or even support it with contributions, how can they do that? Yeah, thanks for asking. Full disclosure, this is my first foray into the nonprofit world. So it's always awkward for me to talk about fundraising. But I'm learning that there are people with resources that want to give it to good things. Maybe sometimes they just don't know what it is. So every year, they donate or give a tax deductible contribution to some place. And United Way is amazing. Susan G. Komen is amazing. But maybe they want to give to a smaller place that's really trying to do something good, just like they are. But I promise that we need the money.

IntentionalSports.org is our website. There is a support link there, where you can donate, I think, up to $10,000 on the website there. And If someone really wants to be a hero, then they can email me directly. That's Andy@IntentionalSports.org, pretty simple. We're a federal 501(c)(3) and everything is monitored. Every dollar goes straight to what we're doing. So no one's getting rich here, but if you have some extra money, we can certainly put it to use, that's for sure.

Grant Wahl:

It's a great project. I would encourage people to check out the website, just a lot of good information there. I do want to ask about your career because you've had what you would call probably... I don't know if it's career changes or just these very different things that you've done. And yet soccer has been part of what you're connected to for a really long time as well. What was your pro soccer career like?

Andy McDermott:

I would say in college I was what I would call a box-to-box number 10. Where at Northwestern back in those days, we had really, really amazing students who also played soccer. So I was probably more on the soccer side than on the student side. So I tried to do way too much on the field, but had a great college experience. Then met Bret Hall when the Chicago Fire was starting. They connected me with Bret and they said, "Hey, we'd love to have you come in. This was when Bob Bradley was at the Fire. "But we see you as a training player. We'd love for you to play with this team called the Chicago Stingers," which I had grown up watching the Chicago Sting and then Chicago Power.

So I knew of them, but I was like, "Look, I'm graduating from Northwestern. I'm not sure if this is the career path." And then I met Bret Hall, who played for the Sting, played for the Power. He just basically grabbed me and retaught me the game of soccer in the craziest possible way. He said, "Look, there's piano players on every team. If you want to play longer, then you’ve got to learn how to be the piano carrier." So, that's basically what I did. I was that medium level talent, that could run all day and was somewhat athletic. But really, I'd rather die than lose.

So for some reason, they kept putting me in the starting lineup, and then made it up to the A-League. Went over to Germany for half a season, with Sport Club Freiburg over there, with their third division team. Just fell in love with that culture and really learned the game even more. I'm jealous of the kids these days. I know I sound like an old man, but they're just introduced to the culture of football so much earlier than people our age, where I think we've talked about this before, the '94 World Cup was the first time I ever saw international football because we didn't have the internet. It didn't exist.

We didn't have NBC Sports or whoever it was, showing the Premier League every Sunday. So that was the first time I'd ever seen world class players playing in person. My professional career was hilarious, back when we made $12 a year instead of 12 million, but some of the greatest times in my life. Some of my best friends still, just avoiding getting a real job as long as we could and bus trips to Canada and all the rest of it. Man, it was hilarious.

Grant Wahl:

And then you spent nine years working as a police officer in Phoenix. How did that happen?

Andy McDermott:

Man, I knew after 9/11 happened, I was in Indianapolis playing for the Indiana Blast, an A-League team in the old USISL. I knew I was going to serve in some way. And actually started the FBI selection process and the Secret Service selection process shortly thereafter, while I was still playing soccer. I was about 27, 28 and realized I was just playing against 17 and 18 year olds, who were faster and better than me. I was never going to be David Beckham. So the time became right.

And then my wife got pregnant with our oldest, named Cruz, who's now 17, impossibly. I had taken the entrance physical for the Navy Seals and passed that and had the Army Ranger recruiters in our living room. Then my wife told me that she was expecting. And she said, "There's no way that you've been playing pro soccer for the last eight years, being on the road and now all of a sudden I'm pregnant and you're going to go overseas for a year, year and a half." God bless the guys and the girls who are serving our country, but she just made it pretty apparent that she was not going to raise that baby by herself. She said, "You can do what you want to do. I know you better than anybody, but you have to be home at night."

So I took a job as a cop, thinking it might have been a temporary thing, while I waited for the FBI and the Secret Service. And then just fell in love with being a cop, even though I had never thought that way. I love everybody. I'm always smiling and laughing. I could never write a speeding ticket because that would've been so hypocritical. But I just fell in love with being able to help people every day, make a difference every day. I always tell that one story. The soccer ball is kind of the undercurrent of my life, taken me all over the world and introduced me to some of the best things. It's still opening doors.

But it might have been most important when I was a cop, because I was actually part of the tactical unit, which meant that I didn't have to go investigate accidents or write speeding tickets or anything like that, or take calls I didn't want to take. We just got to do operations and some of that stuff, but when we didn't have an operation or a training, I was free to go and do what I wanted. And I had a soccer ball in the truck and could go into the housing projects, which was primarily Hispanic families in Phoenix. And I speak Spanish. So I would go out and juggle the ball and find kids who were playing. And for the first few months, no one would let me play. But after a while, they'd let me play or kick around with them.

Then after about six, eight months, actually the moms started to trust me enough to come out and say hi. And then a couple months later, they'd come out with a plate of tamales and want to talk. Then I could finally say, "Who's scaring your kids? Who's really doing bad stuff in the neighborhood? How can I help you?" They would look both ways and then they'd kind of whisper what apartment number or whatever. We actually did a lot of good work because of those relationships.

And I say, I just accidentally started some community policing there. I had no intention of it, but it was really because of the soccer ball, only because I could do a few tricks, that we ended up having a pretty good relationship with people in the housing projects there.

Grant Wahl:

It's a really good story and shows, one, how soccer can connect you with people. But also, isn't that sort of what policing is supposed to be? I mean, maybe it isn't always anymore.

Andy McDermott:

Yep. Yep. Again, God bless the guys and girls who are doing that job. I think it's the hardest time in history to be a cop. People don't realize that someone will call the police for help, and it's the worst moment of their life. Right? No one ever calls the cops to come to a high school graduation. It's always pretty much the worst day of your life. Then cops show up, and then everybody else has their cell phone cameras and is videoing. So not only does that lady officer need to come there and solve that problem, but everyone's recording every single thing that she does.

So it's just so hard, but yes, I am hugely invested in this project in Chicago and with the Chicago Police Department and the Fire Department and having those guys and girls in the facility. Not just in uniform, but in shorts and a T-shirt, playing basketball with kids, playing soccer with kids. So those kids can see cops as more than just a uniform. They can see them as humans and then vice versa. I think that long term that does a lot more than if the cops just have to respond and arrest someone who has committed a crime, because obviously there's not enough jails. There's not enough cops. It's not solving anything long term. We just kind of continue that cycle.

Grant Wahl:

What led to your acting career?

Andy McDermott:

Oh, they came and filmed a movie in Scottsdale, when I was a cop, with Will Ferrell, called Everything Must Go. Michael Peña, Rebecca Hall, Laura Dern. It's a good movie. It didn't crush it at the box office because it's not his typical Ricky Bobby or Step Brothers or something. He was very good in it, in my opinion.

I had been modeling for extra money, ever since college. That was kind of my part-time job. My modeling agent said, "Hey, they want to see you for this role." I was like, "That's a real movie. They're going to see real actors." He was like, "You're such a coward. You've always wanted to do this. Just go and try." So I showed up, and the recurring joke became the cast director said, "Hey, Andy, that was a great read, but that costume is fricking amazing." I don't think he said fricking, but I know we're on a podcast. It's F-ing amazing. "Where'd you get that costume?"

I said, "It's not a costume. I'm on my way to work." He said, "You're a real cop?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Oh, the director's going to love that." So I somehow tricked my way into being in this movie and was on set. Had no idea what I was doing. When they say action on a big movie like that, there's a hundred people standing around, from the grips to the audio to the wardrobe.

There I am in these two scenes with just Will Ferrell. And of course, I had memorized my lines, his lines, everybody else's lines. He had all the lines in the world. So he was asking me, "Hey, what's my line there?" I was like, this is so surreal. Then he's such a sweetheart of a guy. He just wanted to hear soccer stories and cop stories. I mean, fast forward to now, this was 2011, so way before the LAFC stuff, but he had told me that he was a big soccer fan. He coached his kids in AYSO.

I think his wife is from Sweden. I don't want to get that wrong, so it kind of introduced him to global football. I said, "Will, man, I just got to ask. You think about, Remember the Titans and The Natural and Hoosiers, some of these movies that I was raised on in sports. How come no one's ever made that great drama movie about soccer?" I mean, Victory aside, of course. We all love that movie. He looked at me with a straight face and he said, "What? You didn't see Kicking & Screaming?"

And I was like, "Well, I mean, yeah, that one, of course, but how about another one?" He said, "Well, maybe you need to write it or something like that." So I fully blame Will, because at the end of the night they said, "Hey, that's a wrap for Andy McDermott." They give you a hand. I'm looking around, like what is going on? He came up and gave me a hug. He said, "Hey, Andy, I just want to let you know, I hope this isn't the last thing you do, because I think it's what you should do."

I just remember thinking, that's the worst thing to tell a wannabe actor, like gasoline on a dumpster fire, like me. So we ended up starting to get some calls from LA after that film. I just remember one, specifically. I was sitting in briefing as a cop. My phone rang, and it was a LA area code. It turned out to be the executive producer of the movie Argo with Ben Affleck. He said, "Hey, Andy, just want to see if you could come in or what time you could get here, because Ben wants to meet you for kind of a supporting featured role as one of the soldiers in this movie he's doing called Argo."

I said, "Hey, that's amazing. I could probably get there first thing tomorrow morning." He said, "Why?" I said, "Well, I actually live in Phoenix. I'm a cop." And he hung up on me, and I never heard from them again. I just realized, there's a hundred guys like me, in my lane. You had to be there. So it's a little bit better now, obviously post-pandemic where now I audition in my basement all the time, from Zoom or whatever. But back then, you just had to be in LA.

So we moved out there in 2012, kind of gave up the career, sold the house. Rented a place sight unseen. We knew nobody. We had four kids at the time. So my wife is as insane as I am. I think she was just happy that I would not get shot at, for real anymore. She was happy that I would play a cop on TV and not in real life. We were out there for almost five years, just working full time. And anytime the phone rang the answer was yes, unless it was something completely inappropriate. Everything from commercials to TV shows to movies to photo shoots, you name it. It was a full-time hustle for those five years.

Grant Wahl:

Very cool. Thanks for sharing. How often does soccer come up with various actors you've met?

Andy McDermott:

All the time. I am just completely, stupidly lucky that at age five I was a spaz of a kid. Only making fun of myself there, not anybody else. But I'm sure that I would have been diagnosed with some kind of hyper or ADHD or something. My mom just said, "You have to go outside and play something." So I think she signed me up for soccer because it was the most running. No one knew anything about soccer back in 1980.

Even though my dad was a college baseball player, much to his chagrin I chose soccer. And then he ended up coaching us for a while, just because someone had to. I just remember the old story was he had a bag of balls and would put us in a line and would take the ball out and throw it at us. And then we'd have to control it and then kick it as far as we could. That was our soccer development at age six, seven. But yeah, so just stupidly, soccer found me. Now I've been on fields for 40 years as a player and a coach for the last 25. Now I've gone through the A License course, and I'm a director of our kids community club out here, called Palatine Celtic, which is a great community club.

Honestly, you meet someone who's a football fan and... Very quick story. I was just in Mexico, in Tulum, Mexico, filming on a show called Mosquito Coast, for Apple+. I had watched season one. There's this great character in the show, who's the bad guy. I walked in the makeup trailer and there he was sitting there. He looked at me in a Southern accent and just said, "Hey, you must be Andy, playing Hicks." And I said, "Yes, sir." I said, "Big fan of what you do. I mean, you're extra creepy." He said, "That's a strange compliment, but thank you."

Anyway, had a conversation with him for about 15 minutes in a Southern accent. Went back to my trailer and as you do, did some internet stalking on Ian. Ian Hart is his name. Turns out he's from Liverpool. He lives in London. He's been in Harry Potter and a ton of other stuff. He's an amazing actor. He's played John Lennon a couple times. And then I saw him on set and I said, "Ian, I'm a lifelong soccer guy. Are you red or blue?" He said, "Blue, I bleed blue." I said, "You're from Liverpool." He said, "Yeah. I'm not smart enough or I'm not clever enough to switch back and forth between my accent. So I just stay in this character."

It was amazing. It wasn't until a night while we were there, staying at this nice resort, and it's just two of us, because you don't bring your family when you're working. We had a couple of drinks. And then I finally heard his normal accent. And we were talking about Everton. He was just really hopeful that Frank Lampard could right the ship. Since then they have, and they're safe.

But talk about a surreal experience, being in Tulum, Mexico, sitting next to a guy from Liverpool, talking in an American Southern accent about Everton and talking about what players should be there and what players shouldn't be there. I said, man, only a soccer ball could have this conversation going on right now.

Grant Wahl:

Absolutely fantastic. Andy McDermott is the founder and president of Intentional Sports, a nonprofit that's building a big sports facility, including for soccer, on the West Side of Chicago. Andy, good luck with it. Thanks for coming on the show.

Andy McDermott:

Hey, my pleasure, Grant. Thanks so much, man.

Available for iOS and Android

The Interview: Mikey Varas

Grant Wahl — Sat, 02 Jul 2022 19:51:56 GMT

Courtesy U.S. Soccer

The U.S. men’s Under-20 team made history on Friday night, clinching the U.S.’s first berth in the men’s Olympic tournament since 2008 with a 3-0 win at Honduras. I had a one-on-one interview Saturday with U.S. coach Mikey Varas. It’s available below for paid subscribers below. You can listen to the audio version for free starting Monday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to go for your pods.

GrantWahl.com is a reader-supported soccer newsletter. Quality journalism requires resources. The best way to support me and my work is by taking out a paid subscription now. Free 7-day trials are available.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is Mikey Varas, the head coach of the U.S. men's Under-20 national team, which has just qualified for two tournaments, the Under-20 World Cup and for the first time since 2008 the Olympic men's soccer tournament. Congratulations, Mikey, and thanks for coming on the show.

Mikey Varas:

I appreciate it, Grant. Thank you for having me.

Grant Wahl:

So we're recording this on Saturday, coming out Monday [with the audio podcast]. You do have the CONCACAF final on Sunday against the Dominican Republic, but we do know you're in the Olympics after your 3-0 win at Honduras on Friday. Terrific performance, especially the passing dominance to build this 3-0 lead in the first half. What did you ask from your guys when it came to controlling the game like that?

Mikey Varas:

Yeah, we knew that Honduras was a team that thrived in the direct game. So we wanted to make sure that we controlled as many moments with the ball as possible. And then also once they did start going direct to make sure that we control the final line with aerial duals and winning second balls. And that was that from the tactical sense. But at the end of the day, the most important thing was confronting the moment of 15, 16,000 fans that were going to be hostile towards us, and making sure that the boys were brave in that moment, relentless in that moment and together in all of those moments. And they did an amazing job.

Grant Wahl:

How hostile was it down there? What did you experience?

Mikey Varas:

Yeah, the Honduran national anthem was something I will never forget, 18,000 people singing it at the top of their lungs. Obviously, the normal whistles and the jeers, but things were being thrown on the field. A laser was being pointed into our goalkeeper's eyes. It was a full-on high-level CONCACAF moment for the boys.

Grant Wahl:

That's hard enough when you're talking about professionals in their 20s and 30s, but you have a really young team. These are young guys. How did they deal with this? Did you work with them at all on how to deal with these types of CONCACAF moments?

Mikey Varas:

More than anything, what we've strived to do is make a training environment and a camp environment that's as competitive as possible, and that tries to generate a culture where the team is super-united. And at the end of the day, I think we say they're young players, but young players often surprise us when we give them autonomy. And sometimes it's us with more experience in years that actually get more nervous in those moments or think more pessimistically, and young people are really inspirational. And they're able to really be brave in a lot of these moments because they're willing to take risk, you know. And that's really inspiring.

Grant Wahl:

You've done something by qualifying for the Olympics that three name coaches, Jason Kreis, Andi Herzog and Caleb Porter could not achieve in the three previous Olympic qualifying cycles. Those are all very good coaches. What has your overall plan been in building toward this tournament since you took over last year?

Mikey Varas:

Well, I think it's a little unfair to compare me with those groups because those groups, they fought a whole different type of qualifying process. And the amount of time they had with their team, what players were able to come to their qualifying tournament when the tournament was held, there's no guarantee that me doing the exact same process in their shoes back then would've had the success we had today. So I want to make that really clear. Those are really, really top coaches, and nothing about what we've done here has any indication of what they've done in the past.

But our overall thought process with this group was they hadn't played together for two years due to the pandemic. We knew that in November. And so, first and foremost, we wanted to really make sure that we developed a culture of unity, of competitiveness, of having a growth mindset, and of having good people. The next stage was to really implement a clear style of play that is federation-wide, starting with the senior team all the way down to our youngest teams. And then the third thing was to find a way to have the players take ownership over the process and take control of the team. Because at the end of the day, they're the ones who play the game, and they're the main actors in this story.

Grant Wahl:

You had four Philadelphia Union players on the field in the semifinal. You have come from the FC Dallas organization in your experience. It seems like there's a few MLS teams that are really getting youth development right. Dallas and Philadelphia are right near the top. What's happening these days with some of these MLS development academies and the talent they're producing that maybe we didn't see five, 10 years ago?

Mikey Varas:

Well, I think across the board all the MLS academies have been doing a tremendous job compared to where we were at 15 years ago. The investment that's going into the academies, the investment that's going into coaching education facilities, it's pretty incredible. That's been happening for a little bit. I think you're right in Philadelphia and FC Dallas, I would say Red Bull, and I'm probably missing someone else, that have done a really good job in terms of volume of players.

But if you look at the league right now, Caleb Wiley's not on this trip with us, he's starting games with Atlanta United in the first division, Brian Gutiérrez is starting games with Chicago Fire. So is Gaga Slonina. So, across the board, I feel like the MLS as the league has a lot to be proud of, because not only have they created a good infrastructure in terms of educating the coaches, providing the players with facilities and a good training environment, recruiting players, but now the final step is really starting to blossom, which is first-team coaches are giving young players opportunity when they're not quite ready yet. And that's not so easy to do when your job depends on results.

Grant Wahl:

I know there's some fans out there and now as U.S. Soccer has grown and grown in recent years, there's a section of the fanbase and even the media that's developed that follows the Under-20 national team closely. But there's also another section of fans that maybe aren't fully engaged until you do something like qualify for the Olympics, or have a chance to win the CONCACAF title, and may be asking right now who is Mikey Varas? And when you get that question, what do you answer about your story? I know you've been with FC Dallas. You've been with Sacramento Republic. What's your story as a coach?

Mikey Varas:

I mean, I'm just a regular guy, to be honest. Pretty boring. And at the end of the day, I coached youth soccer my whole life, and I didn't have a professional playing career. I got into coaching very young. I was lucky enough to be surrounded by top coaches that I learned a ton from. My first 10 years, I was probably not even the sixth-best coach in Northern California, where I grew up. And I would say what defines me most are probably my core values, which is every day I wake up, I wake up with the intentions of being a good person, having a growth mindset to learn and to embrace competition. And in the pressure moments really enjoy that.

Grant Wahl:

Is it somewhat easier now to break in as a coach and get experience even if you didn't play professionally, than maybe it was in the past?

Mikey Varas:

I haven't thought about that question because I've never really thought about having... My main goal wasn't like, I'm going to coach the U-20s, or I'm going to coach professionally. My main goal was just to be the best coach wherever I was at that moment. And whether that was coaching a U-12 team, or that was coaching the FC Dallas U-17 team, or being promoted to the first team. What I do know is, I've worked hard in my life, but at the end of the day opportunity and luck has a lot to do with it. And finding people who believe in you is something that's completely out of your control. And I've been very fortunate in that way.

Grant Wahl:

We talk a lot about dual nationals, especially in the United States, because so many countries have connections to the United States. You're a dual national. Could you explain that?

Mikey Varas:

Yeah, my father's from Chile. My mother is American, and I definitely sympathize and have a soft spot for dual nationals and the difficulty that that presents, because it's impossible to say, "I love this country over this country," because both those countries are coursing through our DNA, and you love them most. And when the U.S. is playing, I know all of those guys, they want the U.S. to do incredible. And it's not an easy situation, but it's also one that provides a lot of opportunity.

Grant Wahl:

Do you think being a dual national yourself has helped you in any way to connect with players who are dual nationals who may have a decision to make at some point?

Mikey Varas:

Yeah. I think anytime you can empathize with a player and put yourself in their shoes, it always helps. And so this has been a great learning lesson for me about actually how important the component of empathy is. I naturally had empathy for them because I actually know exactly what it feels like. But I think it's a good lesson for me as a coach to make sure that I find other situations that maybe I don't have exactly the same experience as them, but to make sure that you always demonstrate that empathy with them. Because I think it is really important.

Grant Wahl:

There was a good interview done by my friend, Adam Belz, with you on Scuffed we talked about yoga and mindfulness. What's your experience with that? What's your stance on it?

Mikey Varas:

Well, yeah, I want to clarify, yoga for me as a person, from a personal perspective is really important. But it's not something that I push on anybody, because these are personal choices of what you do that helps you live a better life from a coaching perspective. What we do work on is performance breath, controlling our breath, and making sure that we're able to calm our nerves and calm our thoughts and be present in the moment.

Grant Wahl:

Winding down here with Mikey Varas, appreciate the time at a busy time for you. The Under-20 World Cup isn't until next May in Indonesia. What's going to happen with your team in the months ahead, the many months now between this tournament and the Under-20 World Cup?

Mikey Varas:

Well, as you stated earlier, tomorrow we're going to play a final, and we're fully focused on that. And then the second that final is done, we'll start preparing another competition platform for the entire pool. What players do with their clubs between now and the final roster being selected is going to matter, and it's going to be competitive. And that's how it was getting into this camp. And again, because we have good people, because we have guys who have a growth mindset, and because we have guys most importantly who embrace competition, we know that we'll end up with the right roster.

Grant Wahl:

And the Olympics obviously isn't until 2024. Are you expecting to coach this team at the Olympics?

Mikey Varas:

I have no expectations. We went into that game not thinking about ourselves but thinking about our country. And we knew that what we were doing was from a selfless motivation, purely. And I mean that with all my heart. Whatever happens with that happens, and all we're focused on right now is doing the best we can with our U-20s.

Grant Wahl:

And I just want to wrap up just with a question about how the federation has approached hiring you, and how you go about your process and how you think the federation might approach the actual 2024 Olympics roster-wise and all that. Or is that just too far off?

Mikey Varas:

Yeah, I think that those are conversations that we'll start having with leadership, but from my experience with the federation so far, this is going to be a group collaborative process. And Gregg [Berhalter] is going to definitely have influence, Earnie [Stewart], Brian [McBride], Barry [Pauwels], Tony [Lepore], myself. I think it's going to be a group collaboration because at the end of the day it's about the crest and it's about our country. And it's not about any one person. It's about doing what's right for our nation.

Grant Wahl:

Mikey Varas is the head coach of the U.S. Men's Under-20 national team, which has just qualified for the Under-20 World Cup and the Olympic men's soccer tournament. Congratulations again, Mikey. And thanks so much for coming on the show.

Mikey Varas:

I appreciate it, Grant. Thank you.

Available for iOS and Android

The Interview: New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy

Grant Wahl — Thu, 30 Jun 2022 15:50:14 GMT

(Photo by Rich Graessle/Icon Sportswire via Getty Images)

New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy is one of the most soccer-minded public officials in the country, someone who fell in love with the sport decades ago, raised four soccer-playing children and became a Hertha Berlin fan when he was the U.S. ambassador to Germany. He and his wife, Tammy, are the majority owners of Gotham FC in the NWSL. We spoke at length about that and about New Jersey/New York’s hopes of hosting the World Cup final in 2026.

Grant Wahl:

Our guest now is New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy, who's a soccer guy. He's a part owner of Gotham FC in the NWSL, and New Jersey's MetLife Stadium was just named as a host city for World Cup 2026. Governor Murphy, congratulations on that, and thanks for coming on the show.

Governor Phil Murphy:

Hey, thanks for having me, Grant, and, yeah, it's a big deal to get those games at MetLife, and we're thrilled to get them, and we are working really hard to make sure we have a really good package of games. So it's not just the games, but it's which ones do you get, and we would love to get the last game. So we're laser focused on that as a next step.

Grant Wahl:

Well, let's talk about that then. How does that work in terms of trying to get the final? Who do you think your competition is? And what do you think is the timeline for when that might be decided?

“I've heard [that Jerry Jones is pushing FIFA for Dallas to host the 2026 World Cup final], that he is putting a lot of energy and resources into it, and we know him and his family, they know how to do sports for sure. And they're good folks. Again, I think at the end of the day, not in any way to be critical of Dallas, because I think they've done an outstanding job with what they've got, I just think you want to be in a market that exudes to the world that it is the biggest, the deepest, and we think we have that.” — New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy

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